#clojure – 2009-03-20

2009-03-20

00:06	cmvkk	wanted to test something on the repl only to discover i'm still running that reduce operation...
00:06	cmvkk	i feel like i have too much invested to stop it now...
00:06	Raynes	o.o
00:08	Victorr_	is it ok to assume (if test 'foo) will return nil if test is false?
00:08	hiredman	A) yes B) use when
00:09	Victorr_	oh right, thanks
00:09	Victorr_	BTW, I find it odd that there is a when-not instead of unless
00:13	hiredman	I find it odd that you would use either of those
00:13	hiredman	,(doc compliment)
00:13	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: compliment in this context
00:13	hiredman	bah
00:13	Victorr_	do you mean complement?
00:13	hiredman	yeah
00:13	cmvkk	heh
00:13	Victorr_	,(doc complement)
00:13	clojurebot	"([f]); Takes a fn f and returns a fn that takes the same arguments as f, has the same effects, if any, and returns the opposite truth value."
00:13	hiredman	anyway, just negate the predicate
00:13	Victorr_	I fail to see how complement would be better
00:14	cmvkk	it's easier to just use not.
00:14	hiredman	or use or
00:14	hiredman	,(or :foo (println :bar))
00:14	clojurebot	:foo
00:14	hiredman	,(or nil (println :bar))
00:14	clojurebot	:bar
00:16	Victorr_	I think (unless test expr1 expr2) is better than (and test (do expr1 expr2)), don't you think so?
00:16	Victorr_	make that when-not
00:16	hiredman	and would not work there
00:17	hiredman	~def when-not
00:22	Mec	why wouldnt and work there?
00:23	Victorr_	I think he means when-not will return nil if the condition is true, but and won't
00:25	Mec	cmvkk: is it still running that reduce? and how long has it been?
00:26	Mec	,(if nil :true:)
00:26	clojurebot	Invalid token: :true:
00:26	Mec	,(if nil :true)
00:26	clojurebot	nil
00:26	cmvkk	a long time....
00:26	Mec	crap, ill need to find a new algorithm then
00:27	cmvkk	it's still chugging away at it though, it's being a real trooper. It's reducing it out till the bitter end.
00:27	Mec	lol
00:27	hiredman	it's a big number, and there are a lot of numbers greater then zero and less then it
00:27	Mec	the problem is i need to filter the (range 1000000000000) first and then add them all together, i think that would take a lot longer
00:28	hiredman	depends on your filter
00:29	hiredman	you can also try pmap with the mapped function return nil or the value depending on if the number passes the predicate, then just filter on identity
00:32	hjlee	,(doc frest)
00:32	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: frest in this context
00:32	hjlee	,(doc rest)
00:32	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a possibly empty seq of the items after the first. Calls seq on its argument."
00:32	hiredman	,`fnext
00:32	clojurebot	clojure.core/fnext
00:34	hjlee	I guess, I found documented, but not implemented functions/macros.
00:34	hiredman	uh
00:34	hiredman	oh
00:34	hiredman	clojurebot: api?
00:34	hjlee	they are frest, rrest, nthrest, rfirst, fnseq and lazy-cons
00:34	clojurebot	api examples is http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Examples/API_Examples
00:34	hiredman	clojurebot: api is <reply>the website api refers to last release
00:34	hiredman	pffft
00:36	Raynes	http://www.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/audio/AnistonClosure1.mp3
00:36	hiredman	clojurebot: api is <reply>the website api refers to last release
00:36	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
00:36	Mec	sorry, had to answer a call of the wildebeest... hiredman: what does pmap do?
00:36	hiredman	,(doc pmap)
00:36	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f coll & colls]); Like map, except f is applied in parallel. Semi-lazy in that the parallel computation stays ahead of the consumption, but doesn't realize the entire result unless required. Only useful for computationally intensive functions where the time of f dominates the coordination overhead."
00:37	Mec	i only have 1 core :(
00:37	hiredman	:( indeed
00:37	Mec	thats why i wanted to hook up all of the comps in my house, then i'd have 10 cores
00:38	Raynes	I only have a half a core :(
00:39	Mec	lol
00:39	Raynes	I ate the other half, cuz hungry. :)
00:39	Mec	hmm i suppose most of the numbers in the range will be dismissed so maybe it wont take too long
00:41	hiredman	what kind of numbers are you looking for?
00:42	Mec	so called semidivisible, but i dont think that's an actual term, http://projecteuler.net/index.php?section=problems&id=234
00:45	hiredman	999966663333 is a very interesting looking number
00:46	Mec	its just because of it's squareroot
01:12	Mec	anyone know of a keysequence for emacs that will automatically close all open parenthesis/brackets
01:15	durka42	that depends
01:15	durka42	do you use paredit
01:16	Mec	couldnt say, whatever clojurebox uses
01:16	durka42	huh i thought paredit had a key like that, but i can't find it
01:18	Mec	i'd prefer another editor but i dont know of any, i hate the bindings emacs uses
01:19	durka42	you should use vim :)
01:19	Mec	is it "possible" to install on windows and work with clojure?
01:20	durka42	i'm not sure if vimclojure has problems with windows
01:20	Raynes	You should use Enclojure and proceed to flip Lau_Of_DK off.
01:21	durka42	how do you remove a plugin that causes a crash on startup
01:21	Raynes	durka42: in the .netbeans folder.
01:21	Raynes	You can search through it and find it and nuke it.
01:21	durka42	will do
01:21	Raynes	I had to do that with Enclojure. I still don't think it uninstalls right. Oh well, it doesn't screw up anymoar :D
01:22	durka42	yeah, the crasher in question is some old version of enclojure
01:22	Mec	i tried enclojure, it was waaaaaaay too much for just a simple editor
01:22	Raynes	Yeah, the old version didn't like my windows.
01:22	Raynes	Mec: The Java stuff is inevitable for any language, even minor features require it.
01:23	Raynes	It's going to improve of course.
01:23	Raynes	But people who like and use Emacs for Clojure should stick with Emacs because I'm sure it's 1,000 times better than Enclojure will ever be.
01:23	Mec	well netbeans wanted like 150meg and it wouldnt even work right, the window wouldnt tie into the repl
01:24	Raynes	Say what? O_o
01:24	Raynes	I installed the PHP version and had like 11 megs of dependencies to download.
01:24	Mec	it was crazy im telling you
01:24	Raynes	If you tried this recently, chances are Enclojure is fixed by now.
01:25	Mec	its not enclojure itself, its netbeans
01:25	Raynes	Darn, I need to finish this chapter so I'll be a l33t Clojure c0dur.
01:25	Mec	chapter of what
01:25	Raynes	Multimethods chapter of Programming Clojure
01:26	Raynes	Last important chapter.
01:27	Raynes	I still can't believe I signed up for prag with the wrong name... My middle name doesn't start with an E. :\|
01:27	Mec	netbook of physical book?
01:27	Raynes	PDF, the book isn't out yet.
01:28	durka42	Raynes: is .netbeans/modules/clojure-asm.jar the only thing i need to nuke?
01:28	Raynes	It should be something like org.enclojure.<insertbullsh*there>
01:29	Raynes	Unless they named it something different back when you used it.
01:29	Raynes	s/used/installed/
01:29	durka42	oh, there are five org-enclojure-*.jar
01:29	durka42	what's clojure-asm.jar then
01:29	Raynes	Dunno, delete them all, you don't need anything that has clojure in it's name.
01:29	durka42	yeah, it was created at the same time as the others
01:30	Raynes	Mec: Do you have a copy? No Clojure programmer is complete without it :\|
01:30	Mec	just heard about it
01:31	Raynes	I wish Ebooks were like dead tree books. You can let people borrow your dead tree books and it isn't copyright infringement :\|
01:32	cmvkk	many would like to claim otherwise!
01:37	Mec	can someone double check my logic here: 10! is (reduce * (range 1 11)) and 10!/7! is (educe * (range 8 11))
01:37	durka42	why 11...
01:37	Mec	range isn't top inclusive
01:37	durka42	oh
01:37	durka42	i think that makes sense then
01:41	Mec	seems weird that you cant really simplify it mathematically but the programming construct is simple
01:43	Mec	am i getting slaphappy or does my function name !d! sound funny
01:50	slashus2	I am trying to figure out why something like (.eval (.getEngineByName (ScriptEngineManager.) "JavaScript") "5+5") won't work with hiredman's sandbox when I remove eval from the bad-forms . It throws a null pointer exception when ran inside of the sandbox. Outside it produces 10.
01:51	pstickne	maybe there is not engine by that name?
01:51	slashus2	It works outside of the sandbox
01:52	pstickne	maybe there is no engine by that name in the sandbox?
01:52	slashus2	...
01:52	slashus2	I don't know for sure.
01:52	pstickne	check the return of getEngineByName?
01:53	hiredman	getEngineByName may try to load some sort of external resource
01:53	slashus2	nil :-(
01:53	Raynes	SIDE EFFECTS!
01:53	slashus2	hiredman: I think that is the case.
01:54	Mec	we dont need to stinkin side effects
01:54	slashus2	I will try to do it outside of the sandbox.
01:54	slashus2	... the sandbox takes a string
01:55	slashus2	function that is
01:55	slashus2	eval-in-box
01:55	hiredman	it's really read and eval in a box
01:57	hiredman	~sandbox
01:57	clojurebot	sandbox is http://calumleslie.blogspot.com/2008/06/simple-jvm-sandboxing.html
02:08	slashus2	creating the interpreter outside of the sandbox worked.
02:32	cmvkk	If I have a macro 'foo', and its expansion contains a call to a macro 'bar', then bar should be expanded too right?
02:33	cmvkk	my current code doesn't seem to work that way and I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.
02:39	cmvkk	erk, nevermind.
03:41	Mec	if foo expands as a call to bar and bar expands as a call to foo, does the world implode?
03:42	Cark	good morning
03:59	Mec	sleep is for the weak
04:00	Raynes	Mec: Sleep is for the bored people who want to be competent tomorrow.
04:00	Mec	competence is for the weak
04:01	Mec	but ill agree with the bored part
04:01	Mec	night night
04:03	Mec	i dunno why but i keep thinking concat is append
04:22	Mec	since sort takes a function that implements Comparator, how would i make my own?
04:24	hjlee	Mec: check sort-by
04:25	Mec	ah hah, thanks
04:26	Mec	it says the same thing, must implement Comparator
04:31	Raynes	Mec: Why are you implementing everything yourself?
04:31	Mec	so much for sleep :D im not i just have a list of vectors and i need to sort it by comparing the 2nd element
04:33	hjlee	,(sort-by second '([7 2 3] [3 1 2] [4 5 6] [2 3 4]))
04:33	clojurebot	([3 1 2] [7 2 3] [2 3 4] [4 5 6])
04:33	Mec	ah hah so thats how that works
04:35	Mec	hmm didnt work right
04:36	Mec	,(sort-by second '([1 "1"] [2 "12"] [3 "241"]))
04:36	clojurebot	([1 "1"] [2 "12"] [3 "241"])
04:36	Mec	,(sort-by second '([1 "12"] [2 "1"] [3 "241"]))
04:36	clojurebot	([2 "1"] [1 "12"] [3 "241"])
04:37	Mec	ah well doesnt matter either way
04:46	cmvkk	this is kind of weird, but what I want is a predicate that returns true for anything that would be represented by a set of parentheses.
04:46	cmvkk	there's too many different types of things...
04:48	Mec	(doc coll?)
04:48	clojurebot	Returns true if x implements IPersistentCollection; arglists ([x])
04:49	cmvkk	no good. it returns true for vectors too.
04:49	cmvkk	,(coll? [1 2 3])
04:49	clojurebot	true
04:49	cmvkk	and list? is no good, because it returns false for conses.
04:49	cmvkk	,(cons 'a nil)
04:49	clojurebot	(a)
04:49	cmvkk	,(list? (cons 'a nil))
04:49	clojurebot	true
04:49	Mec	how is that not a list
04:49	cmvkk	whoa whoa, hold on
04:49	Mec	fail
04:50	cmvkk	weird...
04:50	Mec	seems like a cons doesnt actually exist
04:50	cmvkk	,(list? (cons 'a (cons 'b nil)))
04:50	clojurebot	false
04:50	Mec	,(cons 'a 'b)
04:50	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: Symbol
04:50	cmvkk	,(class (cons 'a nil))
04:50	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
04:50	cmvkk	,(class (cons 'a (cons 'b nil)))
04:50	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
04:50	Mec	that makes no sense
04:51	cmvkk	it's an implementation defect, it has to do with the fact that cons operates differently for different inputs.
04:51	cmvkk	consing onto a cons works differently than consing onto nil.
04:52	Mec	since you cant cons onto something that isn't nil initially, it should always just be a list
04:52	cmvkk	well, consing onto a list is different than consing onto nil, i mean.
04:52	Mec	,(class (cons 'a '(1 2)))
04:52	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
04:53	Mec	i dont see why, it's a list in both cases
04:53	cmvkk	well it should be considered a list in my opinion (at least as far as list? goes)
04:53	cmvkk	but internally it's a different structure.
04:53	Mec	weird
04:53	Mec	,(first (cons 'a (cons 'b nil))))
04:53	clojurebot	a
04:53	cmvkk	lists can be made up of all sorts of things...there's a bunch of different types of sequences and stuff
04:53	Mec	,(rest (cons 'a (cons 'b nil))))
04:53	clojurebot	(b)
04:54	cmvkk	,(class (seq [1 2 3]))
04:54	clojurebot	clojure.lang.APersistentVector$Seq
04:54	cmvkk	,(class (seq "hello"))
04:54	clojurebot	clojure.lang.StringSeq
04:54	cmvkk	etc
04:54	Mec	#(or (cons? %) (list? %))
04:54	Mec	problem solved :D
04:55	cmvkk	well cons? doesn't exist, but other than that, yeah, you're right.
04:55	Mec	bah you cant be serious
04:55	cmvkk	(or (list? body) (instance? clojure.lang.Cons body))
04:55	cmvkk	is what i'm using
04:55	Mec	does cons onto a list return a list or cons
04:56	cmvkk	returns a cons.
04:56	Mec	one of the lectures said to use cons instead of conj for performance on lists, but if it breaks it from being a list then thats a problem
04:56	cmvkk	it's a bug.
04:56	cmvkk	list? should return true for conses.
04:57	pstickne	breaks it from being a list? :(
04:57	pstickne	oh, odd
04:57	cmvkk	that's the only real difference; seq still works on them of course.
04:58	Mec	you could just call seq on it and not worry if its a list or cons
04:58	Mec	thats what a lot of the library does
04:58	pstickne	but really, cons and conj are different, no?
04:58	cmvkk	in this case, though, what i'm trying to do is distinguish 'lists' from vectors.
04:58	pstickne	(cons head rest)
04:58	Mec	conj is the general for all of the different sequences
04:59	pstickne	(conj 1 [2]) ; oops
04:59	pstickne	(cons 1 [2]) ; \o/
05:00	pstickne	cmvkk: why not seq?
05:01	cmvkk	because it includes vectors.
05:01	cmvkk	actually...
05:01	pstickne	but there is vector?
05:02	cmvkk	no, you're right, seq? apparently does what I want.
05:02	pstickne	yay
05:02	cmvkk	thanks.
05:03	pstickne	ohh, odd, Clojure is really confusing :p
05:06	Mec	seq? works for cons?
05:06	Mec	,(seq? (cons 'a (cons 'b nil)))
05:06	clojurebot	true
05:06	Mec	huh well then
05:20	Mec	why does putting time around defns give me unmatched delmieter exceptions?
05:21	pstickne	huh?
05:22	Mec	i have 2 defns and 1 exp, putting (time (do )) around them throws an unmatched delimiter exception
05:26	pstickne	"works here"
05:27	Mec	bah if i highlight the 3 and run region it works fine
05:28	pstickne	so then maybe it's something else outside...
05:28	Mec	hmm
05:28	Mec	the (do ..) works fine, just not the call to time, it makes no sense
05:29	pstickne	code?
05:30	Mec	nvm it seems i was hitting eval-defn which only goes to the most recent defn
05:32	pstickne	:p
05:33	Mec	i'd kill to get clojure working in scite
05:38	pstickne	so, there's this man I know...
06:02	Mec	is he big, harry, and go by the name jim-bob
06:49	Mec	hmm i keep running out of heapspace but everything i use is lazy: reduce map filter map iterate
06:50	Cark	you're retaining the head of your sequences
06:50	Mec	i was initially but that was the first thing i fixed
06:53	Mec	it was holding at 90meg but i still ran out of heapspace
06:54	lisppaste8	Mec pasted "Euler problem 43" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77334
07:06	Mec	is there a way to skip to the next values of a for instead of just putting a nil in the list there?
07:18	Holcxjo	mec: I don't see the memory leak, but I also don't see how that code will ever terminate. Won't the iterate give you an infinite sequence?
07:18	Mec	hmm
07:18	Mec	you bring up a very good point
07:20	Mec	i need a (take (! 10) ..) in there
07:20	Holcxjo	You'll only want all uniq permutations, I guess? i.e. the first N! ones?
07:21	Mec	right
07:21	Holcxjo	Should still not grow the memory unbounded... just not terminate...
07:21	Mec	true enough, im thinking the resultant number got so big it took the whole heap
07:21	Holcxjo	Unless your number in the reduce + grows out of bounds... :-)
07:22	Mec	with an infinite sequence it should eventually
07:22	Holcxjo	Bah -- you're always one second ahead of my typing
07:22	Mec	lol
07:22	Mec	gah still heap space crash
07:23	Holcxjo	Strange 10! isn't all that much, or is it?
07:23	Mec	,(reduce * (range 10 1 -1))
07:23	clojurebot	3628800
07:23	Mec	even so its not storing that many, just the one at a time
07:25	Holcxjo	BTW: Why this weird converting to string and then picking out the integers again?
07:26	Holcxjo	Hmm. Maybe I should read the problem before asking stupid questions...
07:26	Mec	naw
07:26	Mec	the permutation produces vectors, i need 3 digits so instead of doing (+ (* 100 digit1) (* 10 digit2) digit3) i substring and turn to int
07:27	Mec	probably not the fastest but i just threw that part together
07:28	Holcxjo	Have a look at the 3-ary version or partition
07:28	Holcxjo	,(doc partition)
07:28	clojurebot	"([n coll] [n step coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of lists of n items each, at offsets step apart. If step is not supplied, defaults to n, i.e. the partitions do not overlap."
07:29	Holcxjo	,(partition 3 1 (range 1 10))
07:29	clojurebot	((1 2 3) (2 3 4) (3 4 5) (4 5 6) (5 6 7) (6 7 8) (7 8 9))
07:29	Mec	if you have multiple ranges in a for, can you use multiple :when?
07:30	Mec	that could be useful
07:30	Holcxjo	I don't understand
07:30	Holcxjo	You can use as many :whens as you like, I believe...
07:30	Mec	(for [a somecoll :when (check-a a) b somecoll (check-b b)])
07:30	Mec	(for [a somecoll :when (check-a a) b somecoll :when (check-b b)])
07:32	Mec	oo you can
07:32	Mec	for just gets better and better
07:32	Holcxjo	,(for [x (range 10) :when (> x 5) :when (= x 8)] x)
07:32	clojurebot	(8)
07:36	Mec	the question is does it update the variables and check the :whens in the right orders
07:41	lisppaste8	Mec pasted "For mess" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77335
07:42	Mec	tell me that doesnt make your head hurt
07:43	Holcxjo	Not exactly readable, is it? :-)
07:43	Mec	i just hope it does everything in the order i wrote, or it could take a very long time to run
07:43	Holcxjo	You need to make an abstraction for multiplying out three digits -- that'll reduce some clutter
07:44	Mec	too true
07:46	Holcxjo	The different ranges for d4 and d6 are optimisations you derived from the tests they are used in?
07:46	Mec	divisible by 2 and 5
07:46	Mec	http://projecteuler.net/index.php?section=problems&id=43
07:46	Mec	probably simplest to read the problem description
07:48	Mec	wow the first result was almost instantaneous, this mess of For could really work
07:49	Holcxjo	:-)
07:49	Mec	230ms to run when the other version ran so long it ran out of heap space
07:49	Holcxjo	You could make the duplicity test for numbers even earlier to avoid many false attempts.
07:50	Mec	true
07:50	Holcxjo	i.e. instead of "d5 (range 10)" say "d5 (remove-func (range 10) (list d3 d4))"
07:50	Mec	(doc remove-func)
07:50	clojurebot	excusez-moi
07:51	Holcxjo	I made that up
07:51	Mec	hmm i know theres something
07:51	Holcxjo	I am not good with clojure
07:51	Mec	(doc difference)
07:51	clojurebot	Excuse me?
07:52	Mec	(doc difference)
07:52	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithsc�al?
07:52	Mec	weird
07:52	Mec	(doc clojure.set.difference)
07:52	clojurebot	excusez-moi
07:52	Mec	blah
07:52	Mec	(doc clojure.set/difference)
07:52	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithsc�al?
07:52	Mec	it exists! its in the API! wtf
07:53	Mec	,(clojure.set/difference #{1 2} #{2 3})
07:53	clojurebot	#{1}
07:53	Mec	hah, only problem is it takes sets
07:53	Mec	so there'll be some seq -> set -> seq overhead
07:54	Holcxjo	for takes sets
07:54	Holcxjo	,(for [x (set (range 10))] x)
07:54	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)
07:54	Mec	ya it converts them to seq in the background
07:55	Mec	most of the lib functions call (seq) on everything for shits and giggles
07:55	Holcxjo	,(doc disj)
07:55	clojurebot	"([set] [set key] [set key & ks]); disj[oin]. Returns a new set of the same (hashed/sorted) type, that does not contain key(s)."
07:56	Mec	(disjoin (set (range 10)) 5 7)
07:56	Mec	,(disjoin (set (range 10)) 5 7)
07:56	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: disjoin in this context
07:56	Mec	,(disj (set (range 10)) 5 7)
07:56	clojurebot	#{0 1 2 3 4 6 8 9}
07:56	Mec	ill buy that for a dollar
07:57	Holcxjo	dame dos -- as they say in Spanish
07:58	Holcxjo	It'll even end up fairly readable...
07:58	Mec	i dunno each one is getting longer and longer
07:59	Mec	lol
07:59	Mec	from 230ms to 30ms
08:00	lisppaste8	Mec pasted "bigger for mess" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77336
08:01	Mec	30ms is the fastest solution i've had on the entire euler problem set
08:11	Holcxjo	Now factor out the (disj some-expression excluded-numbers...) and you'll have a readable solution (after adding some comments about the special cases)
08:38	rhickey	Clojure enters TIOBE index: http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
08:51	lisppaste8	Holcxjo annotated #77334 "tidier variant -- still veeeery slow" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77334#1
08:53	Holcxjo	Mec: my version gives 16695334890 -- after 2 or 3 minutes. :-) Is that at least correct?
08:55	Holcxjo	Seems ok -- same as your last "for" code
09:01	AWizzArd	rhickey: oh nice, I was waiting for that. Did you ask them for adding Clojure?
09:01	rhickey	nope
09:07	hjlee	rhickey : i don't know you already knows about that, anyway i found some function/macros that exist in reference doc in clojure home but not in implementation.
09:07	hjlee	they are frest, rrest, nthrest, rfirst, fnseq and lazy-cons.
09:08	hjlee	i guess "rest" thing changed to "next" thing :)
09:08	gnuvince	hjlee: the documentation reflects the latest stable release.
09:09	hjlee	ah,, then they are removed since then?
09:15	gnuvince	try fnext, nnext, nthnext, etc.
09:15	gnuvince	lazy-cons was removed completely
09:15	gnuvince	Not sure what fnseq was
09:17	hjlee	thank you! i forgot i'm not using stable version.. ashamed..
09:17	rhickey	http://clojure.org/api updated to reflect svn 1335
09:22	hjlee	wow! instant action, thank you!
09:38	hjlee	rhickey : can u share the API page generation code?
09:42	lisppaste8	rhickey pasted "wiki doc gen" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77339
09:43	rhickey	http://code.google.com/p/clojure/downloads/detail?name=clojure_20090320.zip&can=2&q=#makechanges
09:43	rhickey	erm, http://clojure.googlecode.com/files/clojure_20090320.zip
09:44	rhickey	new release ^^
09:44	hjlee	thank you, again. :)
09:51	hiredman	:D
10:17	Chouser	rhickey: would you call such a release a "pre-release" or "unstable" or "pre-1.0" or none of these?
10:19	rhickey	Chouser: hmm, do I need to call it something other than 20090320? Do you think it needs a label?
10:20	Cark	pre-unstable-not-quite-1.0-yet ?
10:23	rhickey	It could be a 1.0 beta, i.e. feature complete but possible bugs, or a release candidate. All that presume streams are 1.1
10:23	ambient	stable api
10:23	jhawk28	danlarkin: they want the concrete
10:24	pjstadig	not necessarily a 1.0 label, but a roadmap to the 1.0 label
10:24	danlarkin	but... development will continue, the api will change
10:24	jhawk28	well, a roadmap is the easiest way to get to the goal
10:25	jhawk28	otherwise, there is no definition of what 1.0 would look like
10:25	pjstadig	but maybe you'd know if you want to wait, or if it's not worth waiting and you should workaround
10:27	danlarkin	using software is like buying apple hardware. Yes, they could come out with new models a week after you bought your new computer, but you have to evaluate what you're buying and be happy with that at the moment you're buying it
10:29	pjstadig	i don't know i'm just playing the devil's advocate and making things up
10:30	pjstadig	i guess the thing about (versioned) releases is that people (can?) expect support for that version even while the development progresses on other branches
10:30	pjstadig	for example if I decided to use the 20081217 release and there ended up being a bug in it
10:31	pjstadig	i wouldn't necessarily have to cross the "fully lazy border" just to get the bug fixed
10:31	pjstadig	there would be a 20081217.1 release or something
10:32	Chouser	rhickey: "none of these" is fine with me. I guess I was starting to form a reddit post in my mind. Not sure why, though. shrug
10:33	rhickey	Well, I think this conversation is interesting - the expectation of a maintained release in parallel with ongoing work on trunk - who will do that maintenance?
10:33	Chouser	alan cox
10:33	pjstadig	yeah don't get me wrong like i said i'm playing advocate
10:33	pjstadig	i don't think that anyone should come along and make demands where no money has changed hands
10:34	pjstadig	clojure is a gift that we should accept gratefully :)
10:35	jhawk28	its probably an opportunity for a support business
10:35	rhickey	e.g. there was a branch for 20091217, and some fixes could have been copied to it
10:35	rhickey	20081217
10:36	rsynnott	clojure, now from the future
10:37	Chouser	some people used a pre-lazier version until at least very recently, but I don't know if they were using a release or some other checkout.
10:37	Chouser	I also don't know if they patched it at all, such as by backporting fixes, or if they just used as-is (as-was?)
10:39	rhickey	right, that's the question - given a branch that represents a release, can't backporting be largely independent, or if the release was called 1.0 would there be an expectation that all bug fixes that don't represent additions would go there as well as trunk?
10:39	pjstadig	i think generally people expect backporting of bug fixes to major branches
10:39	jhawk28	depends on the severity
10:40	Chouser	I do think that would be an expecation, but they doesn't mean they'd assume rhickey was the one doing the backports.
10:40	Cark	hum any bugfixes should come with new versions
10:40	Cark	1.0.1
10:40	pjstadig	right a bump in a minor version number
10:40	pjstadig	backports are something that someone could do unofficially for themselves or others without rich having to be involved
10:41	Chouser	but it's certainly more work than not backporting fixes, though less work than people individually backporting fixes to a variety of older versions
10:41	jhawk28	in SVN, one ususally fixes the issue in the release and then merges to the trunk
10:42	Chouser	so are there people not using clojure (or using it less?) because there's not a "stable" version for which they can expect ongoing fixes without breaking changes? If so, are there enough of such people that we'd want to support them?
10:42	pjstadig	good question
10:42	pjstadig	first thing i did was download the release, which was fairly recent at that point
10:43	pjstadig	then promptly realized i had to live on the edge to really get the benefits
10:43	jhawk28	depends on the target market, alpha coders or corporations
10:43	Chouser	pjstadig: I think that's common
10:43	tashafa	is there a clojure-contrib for dates?
10:43	pjstadig	of course then the AOT changes wreaked havoc
10:44	pjstadig	i think rich rolled back the changes or i bumped back to an earlier rev...i don't recall exactly
10:44	tashafa	i'm tired of working with java date objects when i need to use date and time
10:44	Chouser	tashafa: not yet. You might try Joda Time -- apparently it's already built on immutable date, it might not need a clojure wrapper.
10:44	pjstadig	but that's just what I expect when working on the edge with an in development language
10:45	tashafa	Chouser: thanks!
10:45	jhawk28	tashafa: which Date object? sql.Date, util.Date, Calender, GregorianCalendar, etc... ;)
10:45	tashafa	jhawk28: all of em :) it would be nice to have a clojure wrapper around all of them
10:46	tashafa	or have the clojure wrapper know what you mean
10:46	Chouser	tashafa: there's also Chrono: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/659503e698ede0b5/9dda25f36f102799
10:47	rhickey	no one's ever submitted a patch for a release branch, so I don't know how that workflow would work (apply patch to branch, merge to trunk), also how does one verify their patch to branch will work with trunk, especially if the merge requires intervention?
10:48	Chouser	seems like it would have to be two separate patches much of the time
10:48	Chouser	at the very least, each should have been tested.
10:49	jhawk28	releases are expensive, but a whole new group of people come when they are done
10:49	Chouser	perhaps the Issue page would be sufficient for coordination -- different devs even could submit patches for different branches
10:49	rhickey	so, I could work on trunk and anyone that wanted to could pull fixes from my work and submit as patches to release branch
10:50	pjstadig	i think generally merges work better when the code doesn't change radically
10:50	pjstadig	so depending on the amount of change it may not be necessary to make two patches
10:50	pjstadig	but i guess someone submitting a patch could do the leg work
10:50	rhickey	pjstadig: but merges require that I work on something other than trunk
10:50	Chouser	rhickey: I'd think so. Or if someone submitted a patch for a release, someone else might forward-port to trunk, attach that patch to the same issue for you to apply.
10:50	pjstadig	merge with trunk themselves and then submit a second patch for trunk
10:51	pjstadig	hehe
10:51	pjstadig	Chouser: i'm thinking the same thing
10:51	rhickey	I think the 'other people making patches' is easier than the scenario for me personally. I want to work in trunk only
10:51	rhickey	so I'll fix things that will need to go in release
10:52	pjstadig	rhickey: i don't think that is an unreasonable expectation
10:52	pjstadig	perhaps someone could be a 'captain' of releases
10:52	pjstadig	and manage patching the releases and forward-porting to trunk or something
10:52	danlarkin	yeah, some projects have either a general release manager or a release manager for each supported release
10:54	pjstadig	git!
10:54	rhickey	well, before management comes the work itself, as I said, I've never gotten a patch for a release branch
10:54	pjstadig	yeah i just brought up a theoretical point, i don't know of any particular bugs in 20081217
10:55	rhickey	pjstadig: what about all the fixes that are in 20090320?
10:55	pjstadig	i guess i mean that i don't have any production apps depending on 20081217 that would require a backported bug fix
10:55	danlarkin	well a manager could be in charge of backporting patches
10:56	pjstadig	i have no skin in the game...so to speak
10:56	rhickey	I guess I'm just imagining that 20081217 was called 1.0
10:57	rhickey	what would have been different? How much work would have been expended keeping it patched, and would anyone care or still track trunk?
10:57	Chouser	generally if a problem was discovered in 20081217, the discoverer was told it was fixed in trunk (or it then became fixed in trunk)
10:58	Cark	i can only tell about me : i download trunk when i feel i'm too far behind, or a bug i meet is fixed there
10:58	Chouser	I suppose at that point the discoverer either moved to trunk or decided it was "too early" to start using Clojure and walked away for a while.
10:59	rhickey	Chouser: right, so in order for that to be different, someone would have to backport fixes, and also do dot releases?
11:00	rhickey	would people be ok with pulling svn on a release branch?
11:00	rhickey	to get fixes?
11:00	pjstadig	some might also prefer a download i'd guess
11:01	Chouser	right, I have absloutely no idea. It's easier for distro's to deal with versioned downloads (compared to dated pulls from svn).
11:01	AWizzArd	OT: when I have a java lib (a .jar file) which is under the gpl and I use classes/methods from that lib, do I then have to put my program also under the gpl? Or does it not count as derivative work to just use a lib, without modifying its sources?
11:01	rhickey	I guess the versions need have no more identity than, .1 more than the last one
11:03	danlarkin	so for 20081217 -- you'd backport a fix to the branch, make a new tag (20081217.1) and make a new download (20081217.1.zip or whatever)
11:03	Chouser	danlarkin: maybe not a new version for every fix, but otherwise I think that's right.
11:03	Cark	awizzard : your program should be gpl
11:04	pjstadig	perhaps a monthly release of fixes
11:04	pjstadig	20081217.200903
11:04	pjstadig	hehe
11:04	Chouser	gah
11:04	pjstadig	just kidding
11:05	pjstadig	a kind of side point
11:05	pjstadig	in regards to terracotta
11:05	rhickey	So, I think we need some way to embed version numbers in a release, and some volunteers for backporting fixes to release branches and making dot releases - I'd like to stay creative and productive by doing all my work (fix or feature) in trunk, and never having to merge
11:06	pjstadig	with the class replacement that TC does it really requires a specific release
11:06	pjstadig	they recommend for clojure 1.0 you create an integration module named clojure-1.0-[your module's version] or something
11:08	Chouser	pjstadig: so that it's easier to make sure all hosts are running the same version of clojure?
11:08	pjstadig	the class replacement will substitute modified versions of the classes for the original classes
11:09	pjstadig	in order for them to work well with the other non-replaced classes, then you need to target a specific version
11:09	pjstadig	class replacement is only used in cases where you can't or don't want to actually modify the original code base
11:09	pjstadig	so i could substitute TC compatible versions of classes without rhickey having to make TC specific changes to clojure
11:11	Chouser	embeding a version number could be as simple as an ant command-line option the controls output zip (and jar?) file name, and the root binding of a version var, right?
11:11	hiredman	Cark: "should be"?
11:13	rhickey	Chouser: we need an ant target for 'release' I think
11:13	Chouser	rhickey: to create a .zip?
11:14	rhickey	yes, I do that by hand now, including prepping svninfo.txt and changes.txt
11:14	Chouser	I bet there's someone on the group just itching to write ant build code.
11:15	pjstadig	hehe
11:15	Cark	hiredman : about version number ?
11:15	pjstadig	i'm allergic to ants
11:15	pjstadig	fireants actually
11:16	Cark	hiredman : oh about the gpl question ... right ... must be !
11:21	jhawk28	question about metadata, why is the metadata always null when I debug into the LispReader and Compiler?
11:22	jhawk28	is there a method that creates the metadata that I am missing?
11:23	Chouser	Do you have an example of where you'd expect metadata that you're not seeing any?
11:23	jhawk28	referring to Symbol.meta
11:23	jhawk28	I am wanting to see where it is in the code
11:25	jhawk28	Issue 17 is the context (counting arity)
11:26	Chouser	The reader usually puts metadata on symbols only when specified directly using #^
11:26	Chouser	,(meta (read-string "#^Integer foo"))
11:26	clojurebot	{:tag Integer}
11:26	jhawk28	yes, thats what I am seeing
11:26	Chouser	arity is attached by defn to the Var being defined
11:27	Chouser	,(:arglists (meta (var map)))
11:27	clojurebot	([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & colls])
11:27	cemerick	rhickey_: congrats on the "release". Can't thank you and the rest of the community enough.
11:28	jhawk28	so arity is on the Var not the function?
11:30	Chouser	jhawk28: I don't think there's currently a sane way to get the valid arities of a fn
11:30	Chouser	and in fact, I'm not sure that the var metadata is particularly trustworthy, since it can be adjusted by the programmer
11:31	Chouser	,(:arglists (meta (var defn)))
11:31	clojurebot	([name doc-string? attr-map? [params] body] [name doc-string? attr-map? ([params] body) + attr-map?])
11:31	Chouser	those ?-suffix names are meant to indicate to a human reader that its an optional arg.
11:33	jhawk28	the problem that I see with the issue is that hypothetically if the metadata was added to handle the arity checking at compile time, it would slow the parsing down
11:34	Chouser	parsing and compiling is not generally considered critical path, I think.
11:34	jhawk28	unless it was a map that could be accessed later which would mean more memory usage
11:34	Chouser	the issue itself implies some amount of extra work being done at compile time.
11:37	jhawk28	based on the where I was looking in teh code, the logic would fit best in the FnExpr.parse
11:40	jhawk28	it does look like it is doing something with arity
11:40	jhawk28	it only is checking for the variadicMethod though
11:41	jhawk28	that is an interesting word: variadic
11:41	jhawk28	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variadic_function
12:43	AWizzArd	Is Stuart Sierra sometimes visiting this channel?
12:45	gnuvince	I think he does
12:45	gnuvince	~seen stuartsierra
12:45	clojurebot	no, I have not seen stuartsierra
13:17	cgrand	gnuvince: can you post the whole profiling data (like you did here: https://gist.github.com/82136/d9968b44ddf691d3eabe3737ad1bea863f221d11) it will help to interpret the summary data
13:21	gnuvince	cgrand: okay
13:22	gnuvince	Give me a few minutes, runhprof is pretty slow
13:22	gnuvince	cgrand: do you want cpu and heap?
13:22	cgrand	cpu should suffice
13:38	pjstadig	+
13:47	cads	hello
13:47	cads	is anyone here attending the atlanta clojure group this saturday?
14:01	blbrown_lt	cads I might, what time is it? I might go.
14:01	blbrown_lt	I guess there aren't that many Atlanta people but I am one of them.
14:04	gnuvince	cgrand: http://gist.github.com/82477
14:05	gnuvince	cgrand: the html version looks truncated: http://gist.github.com/raw/82477/7ccf374088d7e2bce9a229071d8a9b7af409d286/gistfile1.txt
14:05	cads	blbrown_lt: http://leafhopper.github.com/clojure.html
14:06	cads	blbrown_lt: did you already get into contact with sari?
14:06	blbrown_lt	yea
14:06	blbrown_lt	how many do you think will go
14:07	cads	it'll be at 10 am, till noon... the email said around 8 people will show up
14:09	cads	it's close to where I am, so I figure why not
14:12	cgrand	gnuvince: "funny" 1st entry (and it wasn't in your previous profiling... I ignore it for now)
14:13	Raynes	Today is Rich Hickey appreciation day.
14:13	blbrown_lt	woot!!
14:13	gnuvince	Yeah, I'm at work now, and my CPU is being used quite a lot, so that may have something to do with it (plus, I'm using vmware)
14:13	blbrown_lt	rhickey, thanks for the work on clojure.
14:14	cgrand	#2: no clue, #3 looks interesting: null-string
14:14	Raynes	I should post on the group declaring this, the first day of spring, Rich Hickey appreciation day. Everyone would think I was trolling though...
14:14	blbrown_lt	And I am still a strong believer in the evolution and pervasiveness of a technology. I hope more companies and people get involved with Clojure.
14:14	Raynes	I'm going to do it anyway I think.
14:15	gnuvince	cgrand: I could take a break and run a profile while my PC is relatively idle
14:15	gnuvince	see if that changes the data
14:15	cgrand	apart from the 1st entry, both runs look similar
14:16	bitbckt	clojurebot: everyday is Rich Hickey Appreciation Day
14:16	clojurebot	Ok.
14:16	Chouser	clojurebot: what is today?
14:16	clojurebot	everyday is Rich Hickey Appreciation Day
14:17	rhickey	:)
14:17	bitbckt	hehe
14:17	gnuvince	Also, in my real program, null-string is called about 5 or 6 times, so the real guy we should probably be focusing on is read-field-aux
14:18	cmvkk	oh hey, from last night, is this expected behavior:
14:18	cmvkk	,(list? (cons 'a nil))
14:18	clojurebot	true
14:18	cmvkk	,(list? (cons 'a (cons 'b nil)))
14:18	clojurebot	false
14:18	hiredman	,(class (cons 'a (cons 'b nil)))
14:18	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
14:18	hiredman	:/
14:18	cmvkk	apparently those don't implement whatever interface list? tests for.
14:19	hiredman	~def list?
14:19	cgrand	gnuvince: is null-string intended to always read n bytes and then truncate to the first NUL (when found)?
14:19	gnuvince	cgrand: yes.
14:20	cads	yesterday my girl gave me a most luxurious hickey. rhickey, I don't know if there's a right way to take this, but when I saw it I thought of clojure. Cheers on the work man.
14:20	hiredman	huh
14:21	hiredman	so clojure.lang.Cons is an IPersistentCollection, but not an IPersistentList
14:21	hiredman	,(class (seq (cons 'a (cons 'b nil))))
14:21	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
14:21	bitbckt	well... that's awkward
14:21	Chouser	bitbckt: the Cons class, or cads' comment?
14:22	Cark	,(class (list 1 2 3))
14:22	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
14:22	Cark	hum
14:22	bitbckt	Chouser: Yes.
14:22	hiredman	wait
14:22	Chouser	,(class (cons 'a (list 1 2 3)))
14:22	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
14:22	Chouser	,(class (conj (list 1 2 3) 'a))
14:22	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
14:22	Chouser	,(cons 'a (list 1 2 3))
14:22	clojurebot	(a 1 2 3)
14:23	Chouser	,(conj (list 1 2 3) 'a)
14:23	clojurebot	(a 1 2 3)
14:23	cmvkk	implementation details...
14:23	cmvkk	probably though, the result of a cons should return true for list? though, right?
14:24	Chouser	,(class (rest (cons 'a (list 1 2 3))))
14:24	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
14:24	bitbckt	haha
14:25	Chouser	,(class (rest (cons 'a (cons 'b (list 1 2 3)))))
14:25	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
14:28	Raynes	I hope everyone doesn't think I'm trolling :\
14:31	Chouser	well, that does seem odd, but looking at the definition of RT.cons(), I wonder if the fix would just be to have the null coll case return Cons( x, null ) instead of a PersistentList.
14:32	Cark	,(seq? (cons 1 nil))
14:32	clojurebot	true
14:32	Cark	that's all i need to know
14:32	rhickey	Chouser: in order to fix what? not sure I understand what is broken - consing doesn't necessarily create Conses
14:32	rhickey	the idea is to track count whenever possible
14:33	Cark	,(doc counted?)
14:33	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns true if coll implements count in constant time"
14:33	rhickey	creating a persistent list when consing onto nil seeds that
14:33	Cark	(counted? (list 1 2 3))
14:33	Cark	,(counted? (list 1 2 3))
14:33	clojurebot	true
14:33	Cark	,(counted (cons 'a (list 1 2 3))
14:33	clojurebot	EOF while reading
14:33	rhickey	lists are counted and conses are not
14:33	cmvkk	so the "list?" example is expected behavior after all?
14:34	jhawk28_	raynes: today is go get free Rita's day
14:34	Cark	,(counted? (cons 'a (list 1 2 3)))
14:34	clojurebot	false
14:34	Cark	ok i see
14:34	Raynes	jhawk28_: Not any more. It's RHAD now.
14:35	Lau_of_DK	Good evening guys
14:35	Cark	since it's all persitent data structures, wouldn't it be possible to have conses be counted as well ?
14:35	Lau_of_DK	lkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk7lk
14:36	Raynes	Lau_of_DK: Good evening, afternoon here. Happy Rich Hickey Appreciation day. :)
14:36	Cark	each cons can carry the count of it's tail + 1
14:40	Chouser	,(take 5 (map counted? (iterate #(cons 1 %) nil)))
14:40	clojurebot	(false true false false false)
14:41	Lau_of_DK	Raynes, Oh is that today ?
14:41	Lau_of_DK	~counted?
14:41	clojurebot	No entiendo
14:41	Chouser	Cark: lazy seqs can't be counted, for example.
14:41	Cark	clojurebot: everyday ?
14:41	clojurebot	everyday is Rich Hickey Appreciation Day
14:41	Lau_of_DK	haha
14:41	Raynes	Lau_of_DK: It is now.
14:42	Raynes	I suppose everyone will probably think my group post is just me trolling, but I assure you otherwise. :>
14:43	Lau_of_DK	I believe you
14:43	danlarkin	oh gosh, this post is treading the line
14:43	Lau_of_DK	this?
14:43	danlarkin	Raynes'
14:44	Lau_of_DK	just... any one of Raynes?
14:44	hiredman	~def c.l.Cons
14:44	danlarkin	"March 20th 2009 Rich Hickey Appreciation Day!"
14:44	danlarkin	that post
14:45	Raynes	Aw c'mon. It's a nice post and Rich deserves it :\|
14:45	Lau_of_DK	Raynes, I think thats a great post, and you actually succeeded in making a french person tell a joke!
14:45	Raynes	:D
14:45	hiredman	pfft, everyone knows "Rich Hickey Appreciation Day!" is just an ancient pagan fertility rite that the roman catholic church co-opted in order to gain more converts
14:46	Lau_of_DK	clojurebot, how do we handle not-funny jokes?
14:46	Lau_of_DK	:)
14:48	hiredman	clojurebot: whose job is it to be funny?
14:48	clojurebot	that is durka42's job
14:48	Raynes	I thought that was my job.
14:48	durka42	but he's in problem session
14:48	hiredman	clojurebot: whose job is it to smoke test releases?
14:48	clojurebot	that is ffailla's job
14:48	hiredman	clojurebot: whose job is it to tell Raynes what his job is?
14:48	clojurebot	that is qebab's job
14:53	pjstadig	clojurebot: what is my job?
14:53	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
14:53	pjstadig	clojurebot: does everyone have to have a job?
14:53	clojurebot	Huh?
14:54	hiredman	clojurebot: whose job is it to placate pjstadig?
14:54	clojurebot	that is dnolen_'s job
14:54	triddell1	clojurebot: whose job is it to show us what the pattern is to this job thing?
14:54	clojurebot	that is msingh's job
14:55	triddell1	ah, then why didn't he/she speak up? :-)
14:58	Chouser	How can a static method call be unresolved at compile time, but resolvable at run time?
14:58	bitbckt	Magic.
14:58	Chouser	:-/
14:59	Chouser	Perhaps I should say: can someone give me an example of a static method call that cannot be resolved at compile time, but can be at run time?
15:01	Retonator	i thought that when i would do this
15:01	Retonator	user> (defn t [n] n 1)
15:01	Retonator	#'user/t
15:01	Retonator	user> (t +)
15:01	Retonator	1
15:01	Retonator	that + got evaluated by the reader to 0 and that i had to use the quoted form but it isn't, could some one explain this?
15:01	rhickey	user=> (set! warn-on-reflection true)
15:01	rhickey	true
15:01	rhickey	user=> (def x 4.2)
15:01	rhickey	#'user/x
15:01	rhickey	user=> (Math/round x)
15:01	rhickey	Reflection warning, line: 30 - call to round can't be resolved.
15:01	rhickey	4
15:02	rhickey	e.g. args overloaded on type
15:02	AWizzArd	although in principle it could be known
15:03	AWizzArd	the user should need to do extra work to allow for assigning something else to x
15:03	AWizzArd	in that case she would be shooting in her own leg
15:04	AWizzArd	:)
15:05	Chouser	rhickey: ah, of course. thanks.
15:06	rhickey	np
15:06	Chouser	Retonator: why would + be evaluated to by the reader to 0?
15:06	Chouser	Retonator: the reader reads the charater "+" as the symbol '+ Then the compiler resolves it to the Var clojure.core/+
15:07	Retonator	i thought that with my limited knowledge of clojure. i read some article that said that the only way for a function to not evaluate it's arguments it has to be done with a macro
15:08	hiredman	,(do + 1)
15:08	clojurebot	1
15:08	Retonator	"While functions always evaluate all their arguments, macros can decide which of their arguments will be evaluated. "
15:09	danlarkin	Retonator: perhaps do you think you're doing: (defn t [n] (n 1))?
15:09	Chouser	Retonator: that's true, but it means that when (t +) is evaluated, the value of the Var clojure.core/+ is fetched (it is the addition function) and that is passed as t's argument n
15:09	Chouser	,(class? +)
15:10	clojurebot	false
15:10	Chouser	,(class +)
15:10	clojurebot	clojure.core$_PLUS___3313
15:10	Retonator	aaa ok, i thought that i evaluated the function it self
15:10	Chouser	,(fn? +)
15:10	clojurebot	true
15:10	Retonator	but the + symbol evaluates to the function not the function itself
15:11	Chouser	,(prn '+ + (+))
15:11	clojurebot	+ #<core$_PLUS___3313 clojure.core$_PLUS___3313@6e3fe4> 0
15:11	dnolen_	,[(+) +]
15:11	clojurebot	[0 #<core$_PLUS___3313 clojure.core$_PLUS___3313@6e3fe4>]
15:11	Retonator	aaah okay so the () also evaluates the function inside?
15:12	Retonator	i still have to get my mind around the reader and the evaluation etc...
15:12	WizardofWestmarc	afternoon all
15:13	Chouser	Retonator: sure, the way to call a function is to put it at the front of a list.
15:13	Chouser	,[(+) (+ 1) (+ 1 2) (+ 1 2 3)]
15:13	clojurebot	[0 1 3 6]
15:14	Chouser	,(let [add +] [(add) (add 1) (add 1 2) add])
15:14	clojurebot	[0 1 3 #<core$_PLUS___3313 clojure.core$_PLUS___3313@6e3fe4>]
15:14	Retonator	(+), so how do i translate this to english: excecute the next function, get the meaning of the symbol plus and this yield a function
15:14	danlarkin	Retonator: the way list evaluation works is that each parameter inside the list is evaluated, right to left, and then all the args (except the first) are passed to the first
15:16	Chouser	left to right
15:16	Retonator	but then why does this still work (t (+))
15:16	danlarkin	really?
15:17	hiredman	Retonator: (+) becomes 0
15:17	dnolen_	Retonator: (+) evaluates to 0, then gets passed to the function t.
15:17	hiredman	so substitutiong into your functio body you get (do 0 1)
15:17	Retonator	but i still get 1
15:17	hiredman	,(do 0 1)
15:17	clojurebot	1
15:17	dnolen_	because t returns 1
15:17	hiredman	,(doc do)
15:17	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: do in this context
15:17	danlarkin	I thought (perhaps erroneously) that CL evals right-to-left, so I assumed clojure did too... but there I go assuming again
15:17	hiredman	(doc do)
15:17	clojurebot	excusez-moi
15:18	Lau_of_DK	w00t, I just made my first post to the group I think :)~
15:18	Chouser	,(let [a (atom 0)] (list (swap! a inc) (swap! a inc)))
15:18	clojurebot	(1 2)
15:18	Raynes	Lau_of_DK: In my post? It should be in my post.
15:18	Raynes	Yep!
15:18	Lau_of_DK	Yes sir!
15:18	hiredman	danlarkin: if a form is a cons list, how would you walk it right-to-left to eval?
15:19	danlarkin	hiredman: I'm missing the gotcha, why can't you?
15:20	danlarkin	Chouser: you and your "proof", bah!
15:20	Retonator	is a function body wrapped in a do then?
15:20	hiredman	danlarkin: it would be kind of silly because you have to walk the list to the last element, flipping pointers, and then walk backwards evaling
15:20	Retonator	or am i doing that by not haveing it in a ()
15:20	hiredman	Retonator: yes, there is an implicit do
15:22	Retonator	aaa okay that figures, i get it ;). now if i do this
15:22	Retonator	(defn a [n] (n 1))
15:22	danlarkin	yeah google is telling me that other lisps eval left-to-right too. Don't know how I got that mixed up... I'd thought that for years, jeez
15:22	Retonator	i get what i want if i do (a (+))
15:23	danlarkin	Retonator: you probably want (a +) I think
15:23	Retonator	naah actually not i was learning when the function got evaluated ;)
15:23	hiredman	danlarkin: I have spent the last few days tinkering with my own lisp interpreter, so these things are on the top of my brain
15:26	Retonator	so now i get why anonymous functions are used as arguments to other function with an %, because there is no other way(except macro's), to get in a function un-evaluated
15:27	dnolen_	Retonator: i think you might still be confused.
15:27	Retonator	please help me then ;), i think i get it maybe i explain it the wrong way
15:28	dnolen_	the standard Lisp form is (afunction arg1 arg2 arg3 ...)
15:28	hiredman	function literals, which use % do not have an implicit do
15:28	Chouser	anytime you see % it is inside a #(), and they can always be replaced with (fn [myarg] ...)
15:28	dnolen_	if arg1 is a subform it's contents will be evaluated first
15:28	dnolen_	it's recursive.
15:29	Chouser	I can't believe I just did that. I mean of course, (fn [myarg] (...))
15:29	dnolen_	once all the values are evaluated
15:29	dnolen_	afunction is applied
15:29	hiredman	Chouser: don't worry, it's been logged
15:30	dnolen_	when you write (def a [afn] (afn 1)), you are saying afn is a local variable
15:30	dnolen_	which better be a function when you pass it in.
15:30	dnolen_	sorry (defn a [afn] (afn 1))
15:31	Retonator	yes that is what i get dnolen, i think i am looking for the word currying in another functional language (clean) you could pas a function like (+ 3) and it would get back a function with just one parameter and not get evaluated
15:31	dnolen_	you can use partial to do something like that.
15:31	Retonator	to do the same in clojure i have to pass a anonymous function with a % right?
15:32	Cark	,(doc partial)
15:32	clojurebot	"([f arg1] [f arg1 arg2] [f arg1 arg2 arg3] [f arg1 arg2 arg3 & more]); Takes a function f and fewer than the normal arguments to f, and returns a fn that takes a variable number of additional args. When called, the returned function calls f with args + additional args."
15:32	Chouser	(partial + 3) or #(+ 3 %) or (fn [x] (+ 3 x))
15:32	Retonator	yes thanks chouser
15:33	Retonator	and dnolen_
15:33	Chouser	not exactly the same, though, because the function returned by partial will take any number of args. The other two forms take exactly 1 arg.
15:33	Cark	there should be the word "curry" in the docstring
15:34	hiredman	partial actually "uncurries"
15:34	hiredman	oh
15:34	hiredman	nope
15:34	hiredman	curry
15:35	danlarkin	hahah we are being so unhelpful I'm sure
15:35	Retonator	yeah i was really thinking about your uncurries statement and was thinking that i had the concept of currying wrong
15:35	Cark	,(comp chicken partial)
15:35	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: chicken in this context
15:36	Cark	yeah that doesn't sound half as good as ,(comp chicken curry) !
15:36	Retonator	lol
15:36	Retonator	@danlarking: do you mean beeing unhelpfull to me?
15:37	danlarkin	Retonator: yes
15:38	harpastum	is there a standard clojure (not java) power function?
15:38	harpastum	i really enjoy clojure's absolute numerical accuracy
15:38	Retonator	nope actually very helpfull
15:38	harpastum	,(Math/pow 10 301)
15:38	clojurebot	9.999999999999999E300
15:38	Retonator	i have some functional back ground and i just have to learn the concepts of clojure
15:39	Retonator	and i am dutch so i am not always correct in my wordings and sometimes i get it write in my mind but not in words ;)
15:39	Chouser	,(.pow 10M 301)
15:39	clojurebot	10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000M
15:40	gnuvince	That's a lot of zeroes there
15:40	harpastum	haha
15:41	harpastum	what are the arguments to that function?
15:41	harpastum	,(.pow 10 301)
15:41	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: pow for class java.lang.Integer
15:41	harpastum	because that doesn't work
15:41	durka42	,(type 10M)
15:41	clojurebot	java.math.BigDecimal
15:41	harpastum	aahh
15:41	Retonator	,(/ (* 1/3 3) 3)
15:41	clojurebot	1/3
15:41	Retonator	i like that ;)
15:41	harpastum	me too
15:42	harpastum	,(= 10M 10)
15:42	clojurebot	true
15:42	harpastum	ok
15:43	harpastum	i was reading that as ten million, which had me confused
15:43	harpastum	because i threw this function together
15:43	harpastum	(defn power [number exponent] (if (zero? exponent) number (* number (power number (dec exponent)))))
15:43	harpastum	i couldn't figure out how to not load the stack
15:43	harpastum	using trampoline
15:43	pjstadig	http://clojure.pjstadig.staxapps.net/
15:44	pjstadig	compojure on stax
15:45	harpastum	what is stax?
15:45	Chouser	harpastum: trampoline requires the caller to use trampoline, and for the called function to know it's being called by trampoline.
15:45	harpastum	www.staxapps.net returns a 404
15:45	pjstadig	stax.com i think
15:46	pjstadig	stax is like google app engine for java
15:46	durka42	stax.net
15:46	pjstadig	or heroku
15:46	Chouser	harpastum: other solutions would include high-order functions or an accumulator
15:46	durka42	heroku is rails?
15:46	pjstadig	ja
15:46	pjstadig	an very easy to use
15:46	Chouser	,(apply * (repeat 10 2))
15:46	clojurebot	1024
15:46	pjstadig	stax seems to be just about as easy to me
15:47	walters	hmm, how stax is different from ec2, firing up a fedora instance, and "yum install java-1.6.0-openjdk" ?
15:47	harpastum	chouser: thanks. I'll look into those
15:48	pjstadig	not sure i just started playing with stax
15:48	Chouser	pjstadig: free to get started?
15:48	pjstadig	i think the advantage is they handle the configuration, provisioning, management of the instances
15:48	pjstadig	they also handle the load balancing
15:49	pjstadig	and make sure your database is available clusterwide
15:49	pjstadig	it's in beta and free for now
15:50	pjstadig	you get a command like tool (just like heroku)
15:50	pjstadig	so you deploy with 'stax deploy -u pjstadig -p [password]'
15:50	pjstadig	that's not my actual password, btw
15:54	danlarkin	hunter2
15:57	Retonator	nice binary multiplaction chouser ;)
15:58	pjstadig	http://stax.stadigtech.com/
15:58	pjstadig	works with custom domains too
15:59	harpastum	how long did it take for them to send your invite email?
15:59	pjstadig	i signed up this morning and got an invite by midday
16:00	Chouser	pjstadig: are you using the ring fork of compojure?
16:00	pjstadig	i'm using weavejester's branch
16:01	pjstadig	whichever one that is
16:01	pjstadig	i did have to comment out one line
16:02	pjstadig	65 of compojure.http.servlet
16:02	pjstadig	it tries to put a Ref into the session
16:02	pjstadig	which is not serializable
16:03	pjstadig	Chouser: i used the master branch of weavejester's compojure not the ring branch
16:03	pjstadig	i don't know much about compojure, this is my first look at it
16:03	WizardofWestmarc	that reminds me, need to finish getting Madison Square set up tonight
16:04	WizardofWestmarc	got everything except fnparse downloaded and built last night.
16:05	WizardofWestmarc	may just roll fnParse into another .jar file to make it cleaner heh
16:05	WizardofWestmarc	since it currently doesn't even have an ant build.xml file
16:05	Chouser	pjstadig: ok, I haven't looked at it either, but I've got a cute little web app begging to be rewritten in clojure.
16:07	Chouser	right now it's so slow. http://movies.n01se.net/
16:08	danlarkin	WizardofWestmarc: fork it on github and issue joshua choi a pull request
16:08	danlarkin	Chouser: perfect for madison!!
16:09	Chouser	well it's currently written using a set of xslt scripts that produce ruby code, so really anything would be better.
16:09	hiredman	woa, slick
16:10	ieure	Chouser, That's pretty badass.
16:11	Chouser	the plot summaries quick working a while ago and I haven't looked into why yet.
16:12	WizardofWestmarc	danlarkin: don't use git directly atm since my primary OS is windows and Git + windows = not great last I knew.
16:12	WizardofWestmarc	though I'm probably going to start developing purely in linux vms soon...
16:12	pjstadig	hehe "xslt to produce ruby"
16:12	WizardofWestmarc	and honestly I'll probably just make a single .jar for Madison Square w/all the dependencies
16:13	WizardofWestmarc	once I learn how to properly build ant build files ^_^
16:13	WizardofWestmarc	well, I'll probably keep like Jetty seperate
16:14	Chouser	pjstadig: yessir. I thought at the time it might be a good way to get at xpath.
16:14	danlarkin	WizardofWestmarc: http://gist.github.com/82552 this is what I use for AOT compiling madison
16:14	danlarkin	pretty gross ATM
16:15	WizardofWestmarc	aot + jar or just aot?
16:15	danlarkin	aot+jar
16:15	WizardofWestmarc	n/m figured it out
16:15	WizardofWestmarc	noticed the .jars for most of it
16:16	danlarkin	or if you don't want to AOT it, just running "ant" will build the jar
16:16	WizardofWestmarc	I prefer aot since it improves load time
16:17	danlarkin	slightly
16:17	WizardofWestmarc	hey slightly is better then none
16:22	hiredman	lisppaste8 has the highest count of urls in the channel, shockingly
16:43	brennanc	What kind of concurrency model do I use if I want to have something like a global variable but it be thread specific?
16:43	Chouser	var
16:44	brennanc	I want to keep the request headers in compojure somewhere global but have them independent of the other threads / requests
16:44	Chouser	(def foo) to create it, then use (binding [foo x] ...) to create a thread-local binding.
16:45	brennanc	thanks
16:58	brennanc	binding doesn't seem to be working
16:58	brennanc	(GET "/map2" (binding [hdrs headers] (print-hdrs)))
16:58	brennanc	(defn print-hdrs [] (str hdrs))
16:58	brennanc	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: hdrs in this context ...
16:59	Chouser	ah, you've got to (def hdrs) somewhere that print-hdrs can see.
17:01	brennanc	yup, that did the trick
17:09	kotarak	How is the view of rhickey for auditing some of the macros in core? Eg. binding: (defn binding* [the-map thunk] (try (Var/pushThreadBindings the-map) (thunk) (finally (Var/popThreadBindings)))) (defmacro binding [the-vec & body] (let ..... `(binding* (hash-map ~(var-ize the-vec)) (fn [] ~@body))))
17:14	dnolen	interesting, so the . operator isn't really a function?
17:14	kotarak	. is a special form.
17:14	danlarkin	it's speeeeecial
17:14	hiredman	,(doc .)
17:14	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: . in this context
17:14	dnolen	blast it :)
17:15	hiredman	it's the "Java Operator"
17:16	Chouser	dnolen: http://clojure.org/java_interop#toc6
17:17	dnolen	thx all.
17:22	harpastum	so, I have a large number, and i'm interested in addressing each digit separately
17:22	harpastum	how would i go about doing that?
17:22	cconstantine	Does lazy-seq incur a big speed penalty?
17:22	cconstantine	harpastum: You could divide it by 10 over and over
17:23	harpastum	cconstantine: I thought about that, but it would be more convenient if i could break it up into a vector of each digit or something
17:23	harpastum	basically reverse str
17:24	cconstantine	harpastum: You could print it to a string and treat the string as a list
17:24	cconstantine	you'd have to convert that character back to a num if you wanted to perform arithmetic on it though
17:24	hiredman	harpastum: how large of a number? what is its type?
17:25	harpastum	this isn't for any specific purpose, i'm just trying to understand how to do this type of operation in clojure
17:25	harpastum	but the number i was looking at was 10!
17:25	harpastum	93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000000
17:25	harpastum	one of the project euler challenges is to sum the digits of the number
17:25	harpastum	and i could hook together a recursive function to do it
17:26	harpastum	but i thought there might be a more elegant way
17:26	hiredman	if you have it has a string it very easy to just take each number as a character then using a function to map characters to digits
17:26	pjstadig	,(into [] (str 12345))
17:26	clojurebot	[\1 \2 \3 \4 \5]
17:27	hiredman	,(int \0)
17:27	clojurebot	48
17:27	hiredman	,(int \1)
17:27	clojurebot	49
17:27	harpastum	ascii encoding?
17:28	hiredman	,((comp (partial + -48) int) \0)
17:28	clojurebot	0
17:28	pjstadig	(.parseInt (str \1))
17:28	hiredman	unicode actually
17:28	pjstadig	,(.parseInt (str \1))
17:28	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: parseInt for class java.lang.String
17:28	pjstadig	,(Integer/parseInt (str \1))
17:28	clojurebot	1
17:28	hiredman	but that is icky
17:28	hiredman	building a string
17:28	pjstadig	why?
17:28	hiredman	for no reason
17:28	pjstadig	hehe
17:28	harpastum	can it handle unicode output?
17:29	digash	,(map #(- (int %) (int \0)) (str 123456789))
17:29	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)
17:29	pjstadig	eww
17:29	hiredman	harpastum: java, and hence clojure, is all about the unicode
17:29	harpastum	,(int \u2605)
17:29	clojurebot	9733
17:29	cconstantine	digash: that is what I was thinking
17:29	hiredman	,(char 9733)
17:29	clojurebot	\?
17:29	cconstantine	is the '(fn [x] ...)' form frowned apon?
17:30	harpastum	ok
17:30	digash	,(reduce + (map #(- (int %) (int \0)) (str 123456789)))
17:30	clojurebot	45
17:30	hiredman	clojurebot: function literals?
17:30	clojurebot	Function literals are cute, but overused
17:30	pjstadig	man now you just gave away the solution
17:30	hiredman	I think you could just use apply
17:30	hiredman	(aply + ...)
17:30	cconstantine	hehe, this looks an awful lot like a project euler problem :)
17:30	hiredman	apply
17:30	harpastum	digash: thanks a lot, that was exactly what i was looking for
17:30	harpastum	yeah, it is
17:30	harpastum	i already had the answer
17:31	cconstantine	harpastum: did you make a prime number generator?
17:31	digash	harpastum: glad to help
17:31	cconstantine	not for htis problem... but for another one
17:31	lifflander	So are there any LALR(1) parser generators for Clojure?
17:31	pjstadig	antlr?
17:31	harpastum	cconstantine: no, i haven't
17:31	harpastum	but it sounds pretty exciting. I haven't tried lazy sequences yet
17:31	cconstantine	harpastum: I've made one on the seive design.. and it's reallly super slow
17:32	harpastum	i'd imagine it might be
17:32	hiredman	~Genuine Sieve
17:32	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
17:32	hiredman	clojurebot: Sieve
17:32	clojurebot	Excuse me?
17:32	hiredman	clojurebot: Seive
17:32	clojurebot	Huh?
17:32	hiredman	bah
17:32	lisppaste8	Chouser pasted "num->seq" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77364
17:33	cconstantine	harpastum: my friends have made them in other languagues (C and somethign else...) and it takes theirs miliseconds to generate what mine takes minutes
17:33	Chouser	cconstantine: ^^^ that's what I did
17:33	lifflander	antlr looks like it is for human language or such?
17:33	cconstantine	Chouser: what does it do?
17:33	lifflander	I'm asking if there is a yacc like tool for Clojure
17:34	lifflander	Maybe like the haskell tools alex and happy...
17:34	Chouser	(num->seq 1234512341235412341) ==> (1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 5 4 1 2 3 4 1)
17:34	cconstantine	ah, for harpastum's problem
17:34	Chouser	oh, sorry. mis-addressed. :-)
17:35	harpastum	Yeah, i was confused for a second too
17:35	harpastum	but that's a pretty clear way to do it
17:35	lifflander	I'm from a haskell background but want to write this interpreter in Clojure. I saw the "fnparse" library, but is there a tool that generates the parser, which would be an LALR parser?
17:35	harpastum	cconstantine: did you use a lazy sequence, or are you just calculating to a specific value?
17:36	cconstantine	harpastum: lazy sequence
17:36	ambient	antlr is LL(k)
17:36	lifflander	Is there any LR?
17:36	Chouser	harpastum: note that num->seq has an optional base argument.
17:36	ambient	sure, lex/yacc is LALR
17:36	ambient	and many others
17:36	lifflander	for Clojure
17:37	jhawk28__	CUP is LR
17:37	lifflander	Like "happy" for Haskel
17:37	Chouser	(num->seq 234 2) ==> (1 1 1 0 1 0 1 0)
17:37	cconstantine	Chouser: hehe :)
17:38	lifflander	Would cup play nicely with Clojure?
17:38	Chouser	cconstantine: I've got a fast seive around here somewhere too...
17:38	jhawk28__	it generates Java, so maybe
17:39	harpastum	cconstantine: any chance you could post the code, so I could take a look at it?
17:39	cconstantine	Chouser: if you would share that would be awesome
17:39	lifflander	Ok. thanks for the help guys.
17:39	harpastum	maybe I'll be able to see why it's slow
17:39	harpastum	or, more likely, someone else will
17:40	cconstantine	harpastum: it's really ugly and hard to use right now
17:40	cconstantine	harpastum: will you be on later?
17:41	lisppaste8	Chouser pasted "primes-under (sieve)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77365
17:41	harpastum	cconstantine: probably. If not i'll be around.
17:41	harpastum	way later
17:42	cconstantine	harpastum: ok, it's on it's way
17:43	cconstantine	so Couser's doesn't do an arbitrary number of them?
17:47	cconstantine	http://paste.lisp.org/display/77367
18:30	hjlee	how can I next/previous key of some key value in sorted-map?
18:31	hjlee	how can I find next/previous key of some key value in sorted-map?
18:32	hiredman	,(sorted-map :a 1 :b 2 :c 3)
18:32	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2, :c 3}
18:33	hiredman	,,(let [a (sorted-map :a 1 :b 2 :c 3) k (keys a)] k)
18:33	clojurebot	(:a :b :c)
18:33	hiredman	,,(let [a (sorted-map :a 1 :b 2 :c 3) k (keys a)] (take-while #(not= % :c) k))
18:33	clojurebot	(:a :b)
18:33	hiredman	,,(let [a (sorted-map :a 1 :b 2 :c 3) k (keys a)] (last (take-while #(not= % :c) k)))
18:33	clojurebot	:b
18:34	hjlee	ah.. but I want it in constant time. (so many keys, so many operations)
18:34	hiredman	pffft
18:34	hiredman	your are out of your mind
18:35	hiredman	constant time
18:35	hjlee	sorry. log(n)
18:36	hiredman	you are searching through the keys of a map
18:37	hjlee	sorted-map keys in tree structure, i guess.
18:37	hjlee	and insert may take log(n).
18:37	hjlee	and i guess there are way to find prev/next key in log(n).
18:38	hjlee	(may not be in api anyway)
18:38	hiredman	I would guess your guess is mistaken
18:39	hjlee	why?
18:40	hiredman	,(class (sorted-map :a 1))
18:40	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentTreeMap
18:40	hiredman	~def clojure.lang.PersistentTreeMap
18:43	hjlee	yes, PersitenentTreeMap uses red/black tree - one of balanced binary tree.
18:43	hjlee	(I saw the comment of the source)
18:44	hjlee	so the first guess is right.
18:44	hjlee	why not 2nd guess?
18:45	hiredman	let me ask you this, how many keys are between :a and :f?
18:47	hjlee	that's not related to the problem.
18:48	pstickne	hiredman: 42, just in case you still care
18:48	Retonator	maybe stupid but can anyone tell me what a Var is in clojure?
18:49	cmvkk	check this page, for example: http://clojure.org/vars
18:50	pstickne	Retonator: think of a member in Java. Only they can behave nicely in multiple thread contexts.
18:50	hjlee	no counting needed.
18:51	Retonator	,(var +)
18:51	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/+
18:51	Retonator	but what does that mean then?
18:51	Retonator	is plus a var pointing to the + function?
18:53	Retonator	it is the object itself as i read now
18:55	cmvkk	the symbol + refers to a Var which refers to the + function, I believe.
18:58	pstickne	wth, a NPE? :(
18:59	dreish	nil is a null pointer.
19:04	pstickne	I was just expecting a more graceful death :(
19:04	pstickne	(swap! nil ...) ; no good ^^
19:05	hiredman	,(swap! nil identity)
19:06	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
19:06	hiredman	,@nil
19:06	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
19:08	pstickne	I've just introduced the first side-effect into my program!
19:08	pstickne	I feel so dirty! :(
19:08	pstickne	It's just much easier to not have to keep updating bindings on the escape ...
19:11	cmvkk	I rewrote my program without using anything mutable, and you know what?
19:11	cmvkk	now it's like 10 times slower.
19:11	cmvkk	:/
19:11	pstickne	cmvkk: :p
19:11	pstickne	I like controlled mutability.
19:11	pstickne	although this program will be very slow :p
19:11	pstickne	I am using fnparse
19:12	pstickne	And since I don't pre-tokenize it..
19:12	pstickne	:p
19:12	pstickne	oh, well, it's only for a school project
19:31	Raynes	Well I almost managed to get a person who thinks OOP is the end all and be all of what we do for a living to try Clojure, he saw that Scala had OOP and made a B-Line for the door.
19:32	p_l	Raynes: I think you might need heavier arguments. Just remember to take it easy on nukes
19:33	Raynes	p_l: If I were too have went any heavier I would have scared him away. He just thinks that everything Rich said about OOP is "Opinionated and not true"
19:34	Raynes	Screw him :\
19:34	Raynes	He's one of the "How would we SURVIVE WITHOUT OOP. OMG!!1!" kind of people.
19:37	p_l	heh
19:39	Raynes	Do a Google search for "hate Clojure". Only a single result.
19:39	durka42	~google "hate clojure"
19:39	clojurebot	First, out of 1 results is:
19:39	clojurebot	David R. MacIver � Blog Archive � How do you talk about Scala?
19:39	clojurebot	http://www.drmaciver.com/2009/02/how-do-you-talk-about-scala/
19:39	Raynes	Thats it.
19:39	p_l	Raynes: is that him? :D
19:39	Raynes	Nope.
19:40	Raynes	At least I managed to get him interested in functional programming. Even if he did choose a language that I know he will abuse to the point where the functional programming part of it doesn't even matter.
19:41	Raynes	I had to be careful what I said when talking too him, if I said one wrong thing about Java it was oh noes the world imploded.
19:42	hiredman	Chouser and rhickey are neck and neck for the most non-bot pasted urls
19:43	Raynes	Why do people love Java syntax so much?
19:43	Raynes	Curly braces are the most useless things I have ever seen in my life.
19:43	hiredman	I really have no idea
19:43	Raynes	That's too much useless "Enter-shift-curlybracket" for me.
19:44	pstickne	Raynes: curly braces aren't useless
19:44	pstickne	{:foo :bar}, for example, is nice :)
19:44	p_l	no, the braces are innocent. It's java that's the criminal :P
19:44	slashus2	IDE's make it more tolerable with automatic generation of abstract methods that you have to fill in.
19:45	Raynes	pstickne: But not to denote code blocks.
19:45	Raynes	slashus2: IDE's shouldn't have too.
19:45	pstickne	Raynes: I personally like do/end :-)
19:45	Raynes	p_l: C is the criminal.
19:45	Raynes	Know what I like?
19:45	pstickne	A big bowl of ...
19:45	Raynes	Parentheses and whitespace. That's what I like.
19:46	slashus2	Raynes: I know, but programming java without them is more of a pain.
19:46	Raynes	:D
19:46	Raynes	slashus2: Programming with Java is a pain anyways. That hurt don't heal. :\|
19:47	slashus2	I know someone who uses an editor without syntax highlighting to program in java. masochist
19:47	Raynes	:\|
19:48	p_l	Raynes: C was directed at simplicity and for being autogenerated by more advanced tools
19:49	p_l	Raynes: It's good language for it's uses
19:49	hiredman	C? auto-generated?
19:49	p_l	hiredman: many of the old-fashioned tools generated C code
19:49	durka42	Cfront
19:49	slashus2	Things like pyrex and ghc can produce C
19:50	durka42	ecl?
19:50	p_l	ECL & Chicken
19:50	p_l	GCL too
19:50	p_l	Gambit-C
19:50	hiredman	...
19:50	Chousuke	I don't think C was ever designed to be autogenerated...
19:50	p_l	Yacc :D
19:50	Chousuke	:P
19:51	hiredman	I have yet to hear an example that either somehow predated C so C targeted it, or was created at the same time as C and C was just hte output format for it
19:51	p_l	Chousuke: It was designed with syntax that was easily understandable for the time, with assumption that for more complex functionality you'd write a compiler for a better language that used C as portable assembly
19:51	p_l	hiredman: yacc & lex
19:52	p_l	hiredman: some other tools from V7 era
19:52	Chousuke	hmm.
19:52	Raynes	p_l: No, I mean it's the criminal for staring the whole curly braces trend.
19:52	p_l	Raynes: it was better than begin ... end
19:52	slashus2	algol
19:52	Raynes	Pascal should die.
19:53	p_l	and few other langs AFAIK supported either curly braces or begin ... end
19:53	p_l	Raynes: Wirth says the same. Nobody listens to him
19:53	Raynes	From #Scala [18:49] <xocoatl> btw. the first language i mastered was pascal... and then delphi... from that perspective java and scala code was like all { commented out } ;-)
19:54	Raynes	Irrelevant but still funny.
19:54	Raynes	Anyways, I'll be back later.
19:54	slashus2	algol 68 had curly braces
19:55	slashus2	So that predated C a little.
19:57	slashus2	Raynes: Blame algol 68, not C :-P
19:58	slashus2	wait
19:58	slashus2	I think I am incorrect.
19:58	Raynes	I agree.
19:58	Raynes	:)
20:02	p_l	slashus2: what about Algol 60? :)
20:02	p_l	It was a big inspiration :)
20:03	p_l	also, I dunno, but what about B and BCPL?
20:03	p_l	(and CPL)
20:14	cconstantine	Ada still uses begin/end
20:18	cconstantine	I have a set of lists "( ( 1 2 3 ...) (2 4 6 ...) (3 6 9 ...) ) and I want to keep them sorted by the collection's ffirst element. I'll only ever be doing one insert/delete at a time, is there anyway to keep the collection of sequences sorted on insert/delete instead of doing a conj and sorting the entire thing?
20:19	cconstantine	and the delete will always be the first sequence
20:26	Raynes	Oh shit!
20:26	Raynes	Lambda-the-ultimate is down
20:28	cconstantine	Oh no! what does it do?
21:23	p_l	ccmtaylor: Ada is the weirdo in that group ;-)
21:33	hjlee	hiredman: are you there?
22:32	slashus2	If I was slurping code from a file, what is the best way to turn a string into something that I could use with eval?
22:36	Raynes	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcon_(programming_language) Anyone ever used this? I bet it's a mess. Too many paradigms.
22:41	pstickne	Raynes: and Clojure isn't? ;-)
22:41	p_l	Raynes: well, CL feels alright...
22:41	Raynes	No, I don't think you get it. Falcon has an /obscene/ amount of paradigms.
22:41	pstickne	Sometimes I miss when programming languages are restricted to 7-bit ASCII input...
22:42	Raynes	It tries to do everything.
22:42	p_l	Raynes: and CL has (1+ currently-known-paradigms)
22:43	Raynes	Procedural, Object Oriented, Prototype Oriented, Functional, Tabular and Message Oriented.
22:43	Raynes	"Pick the ingredients you prefer and let the code to follow your inspiration."
22:44	brweber2	hey all, is anyone around familiar with inlining in hotspot?
22:44	Raynes	Oh boy they have an IRC channel
22:44	p_l	Raynes: don't troll too much
22:44	Raynes	There is no one there too troll. :(
22:44	Raynes	Only seven people.
22:48	Raynes	I need to properly learn Scala.
22:50	pstickne	Falcon looks ... interesting ...
22:50	pstickne	Raynes: yes you should ;)
22:51	Raynes	Learning different languages in quick succession normally bothers me, but I doubt it would matter in this case, I couldn't forget Clojure if I tried.
22:51	Raynes	o_o
22:53	p_l	Raynes: don't succumb to the Boring Side!
22:53	Raynes	Correction: I need to have more OOP experience so that when I put OOP down, I can do it with facts.
22:54	pstickne	OOP is a silly term.
22:54	pstickne	I like to argue that Haskell is "OO" because it supports polymorphic behavior of abstract data types :p
22:55	pstickne	(most people say I'm wrong though)
22:55	pstickne	(I just think I have a liberal definition of OO :-)
22:55	Raynes	That would spark wildfires in #Haskell
22:55	pstickne	Which is silly...
22:56	pstickne	And then OOP can be done in languages that aren't "OO"
22:56	pstickne	(e.g. you can write OOP in C, which is not OO)
22:57	p_l	which can and has been done
22:57	pstickne	Raynes: oh noo!
22:57	pstickne	Raynes: my experience with NB+Scala[+Java] = the lose
22:57	Raynes	pstickne: They fixed that in the last release.
22:58	pstickne	whew.
22:58	pstickne	Raynes: does it still have to filter through the ant-task?
22:58	pstickne	(the Eclipse builders are so much nicer -- when they work)
22:58	Raynes	I don't guess... It works fine for me.
22:58	pstickne	Raynes: cool :)
22:58	pstickne	I guess either Eclipse or NB is like Ford or Chevy :)
22:59	Raynes	Programming in Scala is such a lonnnnng boooook.
22:59	pstickne	Raynes: with such a ... interesting unofficial acronym! :p
22:59	p_l	I consider NB to be like a good sericable car
22:59	p_l	*servicable
23:00	Raynes	Netbeans is like a car that is about to run out of gas.
23:00	vagif	Hello, any emacs+slime users here ?
23:00	Raynes	Chug Chug vrooooom Chug.
23:00	p_l	Raynes: And despite that it's still going to go for 100 km :P
23:00	pstickne	Raynes: did you put WATER in again?
23:00	Raynes	:p
23:01	pstickne	p_l: until 50 km out of town it spontaneously explodes :(
23:01	p_l	Eclipse on the other hand is like this shiny popular car that guzzles 50l/100km has ton of weirdly named parts, expensive service and dies randomly
23:01	vagif	i'm running emacs+slime and is able to slime-connect to clojure. But when i move cursor to any function name in the source code, i see Evaluation Aborted instead of function definition
23:01	pstickne	p_l: at least it comes with free towing service ;-)
23:02	vagif	is this feature implemented /
23:02	vagif	?
23:02	slashus2	Anyone have any idea how to turn a string into something I could use with eval?
23:02	pstickne	(disclaimer: not guaranteed to actually tow you back to town)
23:02	p_l	pstickne: last time I checked, the towing service put you on a flight to cambodia
23:02	p_l	pstickne: packaged as mackarel
23:03	p_l	and they wanted to get paid for that
23:03	pstickne	slashus2: I think print-str or similar might do it
23:03	pstickne	slashus2: err, prn.
23:04	slashus2	pstickne: I am trying to slurp code from a file and evaluate it.
23:04	pstickne	slashus2: then you already have it as a string to eval...?
23:04	slashus2	eval uses code
23:04	slashus2	a form
23:04	slashus2	I think I almost have it working. Just namespace problems.
23:05	pstickne	(eval (pr-str "something something"))
23:05	vagif	i'm running emacs+slime and is able to slime-connect to clojure. But when i move cursor to any function name in the source code, i see Evaluation Aborted instead of function definition. Is this feature implemented ?
23:06	slashus2	pstickne: I don't want to print a string and return it.
23:06	pstickne	slashus2: that doesn't actually print anything though
23:08	slashus2	using
23:09	slashus2	(map eval (map (comp symbol slurp str) (filter #(.endsWith (.getName %) ".clj") (file-seq (java.io.File. "plugins/"))))) I am getting class not found on a lot of the things. Even though I have the plugins/ in my classpath and the base src directory in my classpath.
23:36	Raynes	"I have a hard time believing that Clojure could be used exclusively to create a serious, full-scale application. Don't get me wrong, Rick, your presentations are great, but I honestly don't think that I have the sheer mental ability required to keep track of a dynamic system of truely enterprise magnitude. That's where Scala comes in..."
23:37	Raynes	"Rick" You can tell he's /really/ looked into Clojure eh.
23:40	slashus2	Something is lacking in his design if he can't keep track of a dynamic system.
23:40	pstickne	I think that static typing is great.
23:41	pstickne	(And yes, it is because I have a limited mental capacity.)
23:44	Raynes	I, for some reason can't bring myself to open up this book and read anything about Scala. I guess it will have to wait. I'm so tied up in Clojure that it would take a good Scala beating to loosen the ropes.
23:46	Raynes	pstickne: Tell me something awesome about Scala that I don't know.
23:48	pstickne	Raynes: you likely now it. The best thing about Scala is that it /tries/ be a commercially-accepted FP/OO hybrid (some could argue this is the same for F#).
23:48	pstickne	*know
23:48	pstickne	Raynes: so it has a number of ... less than ideal designs in it, many to work with Java and/or "fit Java programmers"
23:49	pstickne	Raynes: well, let me put it this way ... if you have a choice between Java and Scala ... ;-)
23:50	Raynes	I thought using it from Java was hell? Last time I checked the data structures were incompatible with Java.
23:50	pstickne	Raynes: they mostly are, but there are wrappers (and support is getting better). I avoid this by only using Java in Scala and not the other way around.
23:50	pstickne	(e.g. how do you call Vector.+ in Java?)
23:51	Raynes	:o
23:52	pstickne	Raynes: the thing I mist most coming to clojure is lack of static types (that are inferred)
23:52	pstickne	(Granted, inference isn't great in Scala, but I'm also coming a project in SML ... yet to try Haskell)
23:52	pstickne	*miss
23:52	Raynes	pstickne: Scala intrigues me.
23:53	slashus2	pstickne: Type hints don't do it for you?
23:53	pstickne	slashus2: I don't even know what those are :-)
23:53	Raynes	But Clojure has mah heart.
23:53	Raynes	pstickne: (defn whatever [#^String x] (println x))
23:53	pstickne	It's an interesting language.
23:54	pstickne	(whatever 10) :-/
23:54	slashus2	pstickne: You can give type hints while initializing a function to speed up things a little, or make sure you are accepting the right types.
23:55	slashus2	pstickne: That works because println takes integers as well as strings
23:55	pstickne	(defn whatever [#^String x] (println (inc x))) (whatever "x") ;-(
23:56	slashus2	It doesn't check at compile time :-)
23:56	pstickne	that's the part I miss :p
23:56	Raynes	Runtime errors <3
23:57	p_l	hmmm.... is there java for MVS? It might be interesting to run clojure apps read from EBCDIC card images... :P