#clojure – 2009-03-13

2009-03-13

00:00	arohner_	amap, areduce, etc
00:00	arohner_	see the java interop section of clojure.org
00:00	Raynes	Why hasn't Rich released a new version yet? You'd think with all the huge changes he would because there is no telling how many people are downloading the old version and doing stuff with it only to find out their code is no longer compatible with new clojure.
00:00	Guest46760	arohner_: will do. thx
00:04	cooldude227	it would be kinda nice to have releases more often. that way, most people can be working off the same point
00:05	cooldude227	without missing out on big stuff
00:05	Chouser	I think he doesn't like the overhead of a release -- bring the docs up to date, do the build, package, collect changelogs, announce, etc.
00:06	cmvkk_	what's the plan anyway? is there going to be a 1.0 or something? just 'eventually'?
00:06	cooldude227	sounds right, that stuffs totally bitchy
00:06	rzezeski	cooldude227, I think Howard Lewis Ship setup a nightly build at some point, maybe people could use that. Although I imagine Rich has reasons of his own for why it is the way it is
00:06	durka42	if you're going to use a "nightly", just use svn
00:06	cooldude227	or git
00:06	cooldude227	:)
00:07	cmvkk_	but then you have to have ant!
00:07	Chouser	the major version number will be based on the years since release
00:07	rzezeski	well what I'm saying is...for people who don't want/cant build it, or pull from git (my company network blocks git) then there is a common place people can pull binaries from, and the zip name could have a timestamp built into it so people can easily compare what they have
00:07	durka42	like C++0x?
00:07	Chouser	so for it to still be called 1.0, he's got to get it out by Nov 2009.
00:08	Chouser	I think.
00:08	cmvkk_	I....kind of get it?
00:08	Raynes	I don't.
00:09	Chouser	the minor will count the number of releases within that year
00:09	cmvkk_	but the next release will start with 1, or what? because this last release didn't have version numbers or anything.
00:09	rzezeski	because they weren't really releases, more like "snapshots"
00:09	Chouser	so the first stable release before Nov will be 1.0, then 1.1, 1.2, etc. The first stable release after Nov will be 2.0
00:10	cmvkk_	and that seems like a bad release policy. majors are for major changes, etc. Why bother changing the major if the code isn't any different?
00:10	Chouser	unless of course he changes his mind before then.
00:10	cmvkk_	and what if you want to change the code a lot during the middle of the year?
00:10	Raynes	That's just... Unnecessary.
00:11	durka42	i agree, seems a little arbitrary
00:11	Raynes	"Experimental 2.0 release" I always hated those.
00:11	cmvkk_	anyway, is there a 'road map' to the next release? Things that need to get coded/decided?
00:11	p_l	Raynes: Talking about Oracle? xD
00:12	cmvkk_	obviously if things like the lazyness change are still going on, it's too early to be setting things in stone.
00:12	Raynes	p_l: Nope, lots of other stuff.
00:12	p_l	and yeah, releasing a very untested thing as 2.0, like Oracle, is a bad idea
00:13	rzezeski	Does anyone know if Stu has a set release date for his book? Is he still waiting on 1.0?
00:13	durka42	i thought there was a deadline, maybe May?
00:14	Raynes	April last time I checked.
00:14	Chouser	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-10-14.html#09:53
00:14	Raynes	I still say that Stu jumped the gun big time writing a book so early.
00:15	Raynes	Imagine if Rich hadn't hacked out the fully lazy implementation in time. And he almost didn't. :\|
00:16	cmvkk_	Chouser, I see. Wouldn't that make the current release 1.0 then?
00:16	cmvkk_	since it was the first release after that thursday.
00:16	rzezeski	Raynes, OTOH, having a book so early could help adoption
00:16	rzezeski	I guess it's a double edged sword of sorts
00:16	Raynes	rzezeski: That cuts both ways.
00:17	Raynes	Not much use for a book if everything in it is outdated next year :p
00:17	Chouser	cmvkk_: shrug
00:17	rzezeski	but at some point, Clojure needs to stabilize, and not let perfect get in the way of good
00:18	cmvkk_	yeah. when i talk about the future, i'm mostly wondering what breaking changes have yet to occur.
00:23	arohner_	can I call alter inside an alter?
00:25	hiredman	arohner_: ew
00:25	cooldude227	sounds like trouble
00:25	arohner_	yeah, that's what I was thinking
00:25	arohner_	turns out I don't need to
00:26	cooldude227	good
00:40	Raynes	I predict myself learning factor in the far future "just cuz".
00:40	duncanm	i'd like to learn a stack-based language
00:41	Raynes	I just want to learn it because it looks so fuckin' cool.
00:41	duncanm	looks?
00:41	Raynes	Of course if Clojure never makes it mainstream factor wont even be in the books, but still, it looks awesome.
00:42	Raynes	The postfix syntax, the heavy documentation and the dinosaur on the front page all conspired to make me put it on my "Tolearn" list.
00:46	cooldude227	factor is a fun language, and it has libraries for EVERYTHING
00:46	cooldude227	the emacs mode, fuel, is almost as good as SLIME
00:46	duncanm	i'm surprised - who writes them?
00:46	cooldude227	a lot are from slava himself, but there are quite a few from other random people
00:50	Raynes	Is factor everyones secret pleasure or something?
00:50	Raynes	:o
00:50	Raynes	I don't see any electronic ink about it :\
00:51	Raynes	Oh, it's newer than I thought. 03.
00:51	cooldude227	dealing with stack is really hard to wrap your head around
00:51	Raynes	I predict the userbase skyrocketing in 2070 long after I'm dead.
00:51	cooldude227	s/stack/the stack/
01:05	Raynes	A guy on stackoverflow.com replied to a post "Will you ever use factor?" with this: fun for aside language based stack a in point the see don't I but, Forth resembles it and briefly Factor studied I
01:05	Raynes	(apply str (reverse (interpose " " (.split "fun for aside language based stack a in point the see don't I but, Forth resembles it and briefly Factor studied I" " "))))
01:05	Raynes	,(apply str (reverse (interpose " " (.split "fun for aside language based stack a in point the see don't I but, Forth resembles it and briefly Factor studied I" " "))))
01:05	clojurebot	"I studied Factor briefly and it resembles Forth but, I don't see the point in a stack based language aside for fun"
01:05	Raynes	I always forget that darn ,
01:06	p_l	heh. till one starts working in various small environments, I guess... Open Firmware etc.
01:08	hiredman	freebsd's boot loader is in Forth
01:08	hiredman	or at least one stage of it is
01:10	durka42	http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/sys/boot/forth/
01:12	hiredman	~google freebsd forth boot
01:12	clojurebot	First, out of 8470 results is:
01:12	clojurebot	The Boot Process (FreeBSD) � UNIX Administratosphere
01:12	clojurebot	http://administratosphere.wordpress.com/2008/03/01/the-boot-process-freebsd/
01:16	Raynes	Whoa.
01:16	Raynes	Slava Pestovs home page has a total of 4 views since 1994.
01:23	durka42	from that link -- if the kernel fails to load, you a get a forth prompt to fix it
01:24	hiredman	there are a few different prompts you can end up at
01:24	p_l	many big iron systems have that capability
01:25	hiredman	big iron like my msi wind
01:26	p_l	Well, I'm pretty sure it runs a backward-compatible BIOS for IBM-PC :P
01:26	p_l	that doesn't mean that FreeBSD can't use it's much more powerful bootloader :)
01:26	p_l	and frankly speaking, "config mode" is a great function to have
01:28	p_l	it's great when instead of going nuts when my VMS install refuses to boot, I only have to change the boot command to BOOT/R5:1 and it will drop me in config manager
03:26	Mec	how would i do something like (apply and '(true true false))
03:27	Cark	,(doc every?)
03:27	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns true if (pred x) is logical true for every x in coll, else false."
03:27	Mec	ah hah, thanks
03:31	Raynes	Why do all good ideas come in while you're in bed and half asleep?
03:33	Mec	because you're not thinking as "clearly" so you're not constrained to your normal thought processes
04:09	Mec	is there a library function that calls a function with an initial value, then calls the funciton with the result, and again on the result, and putting them all in a list?
04:11	Puzzler	iterate
04:11	Mec	oo nifty, thanks
04:12	Mec	that just makes my life a million times easier, i keep getting random errors trying to implement it myself
04:48	AWizzArd	clojurebot: max people
04:48	clojurebot	max people is 162
04:48	AWizzArd	woohoo ;)
05:06	Mec	i use (first (filter ..)) an aweful lot, is there an equivalent library construct?
05:09	cgrand	Mec: no and it was recently discussed on the ML (subject: "filter1 interseting?")
05:20	Mec	(first (drop-while )) is about the same but sounds closer to it's purpose
05:24	AWizzArd	yes, especially this (first (filter ..)) is a common pattern
05:28	Mec	it's such a common idea but for some reason hard to put a simple name to
05:31	AWizzArd	in Common Lisp it is called find
05:31	AWizzArd	but that name is already used
05:32	cgrand	first-match? seek?
05:32	Mec	seek's not bad
05:33	cgrand	or hide it into destructuring (let [[x] (filter ...) ...] ...)
05:38	AWizzArd	seek would be good if destructuring is not an option
05:39	AWizzArd	the problem with first-match is, that it indeed does reduce the complexity of the code, but it is not shortening the overall pattern.
05:44	karmazilla	overloading 'find' is not an option?
05:49	cgrand	The two overlaod would be too different : map * object -> map-entry vs seq * pred -> object
05:50	karmazilla	yes, you're right about that
06:00	Mec	if I'm performing the same computation at the init of a loop and at the recur, is there a better pattern to use?
06:01	Mec	hmm nvm i dont even need to recur that value
06:03	Holcxjo	FYI: Yesterday's talk by Rich was taped and "will be posted in approximately 48 hours" at http://skillsmatter.com/podcast/java-jee/clojure-for-java-programmers
06:05	Mec	is it the same talk as the current clojure for java?
06:08	cgrand	Mec: can't you put that computation at the start of the loop body?
06:08	cgrand	Holcxjo: thx
06:09	Mec	cgrand: yup
06:09	kotarak	Holcxjo: is this a "general overview" talk? That would be not thaat interesting. (I know the general overview already. ;) ) Wasn't there also a more in detail talk? Will it also be podcasted?
06:19	Holcxjo	kotarak: Yes, he gave a general introduction to Clojure. IT was aimed at Java programmers
06:24	lisppaste8	mec pasted "ugly nested loop" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76951
06:25	Mec	please tell me there's a more graceful way, that's just hideous, but i dont know how to use 'for for this
06:25	Drakeson	how should I check (cond) based on class of data? (= (class x) java.lang.String) ?
06:26	Mec	Drakeson: looks like that should work
06:26	Drakeson	yeah, but is there a shorthand for that? somehow using #^String?
06:27	Mec	,(= (class "abc") String)
06:27	clojurebot	true
06:32	lisppaste8	cgrand annotated #76951 "re: ugly nested loop" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76951#1
06:34	Mec	i try to stay away from max-key because it calls pred too many times
06:35	Mec	hmm maybe not in this situation
06:36	cgrand	it will call first ~2*n times (instead of n times) but first is cheap
06:38	Mec	right i was thinking back to another way i used it
06:44	Mec	alors au lit
07:55	Holcxjo	Mec: I submitted a bug about max-key doing double evalutations -- let's see if it gets accepted -- http://bit.ly/hqivY
07:55	Holcxjo	Bah -- gone already
07:58	kotarak	Holcxjo: did you talk to rhickey before submitting the bug?
08:00	Chousuke	wouldn't max-key be equal to (max (map k xs))?
08:02	Holcxjo	kotarak: No, I thought he can always close it as invalid if he doesn't like it
08:02	kotarak	Holcxjo: He prefers discussing such things before the bug is opened.
08:03	Holcxjo	oops
08:03	Chousuke	~source max-key
08:04	Holcxjo	chousuke: No, max-key returns the element that maximises (k element)
08:05	Chousuke	ah, indeed.
08:06	Chousuke	I wonder how often k will actually be expensive to calculate, though :/
08:07	Holcxjo	Chousuke: indeed -- but how expensive is my method? Not very either, I assume -- believing Rich's mantra of ephemeral garbage being cheap
08:07	Chousuke	I suppose
08:10	banisterfiend	does clojure have its own good standard lib or does it just use the java lib?
08:18	Chousuke	banisterfiend: there's clojure.core and .contrib
08:18	Chousuke	banisterfiend: they don't do everything; using the java libs is perfectly fine and encouraged, even :)
08:19	Chousuke	though my guess is that we'll see a "pure clojure" standard library if people get serious about implementing clojure on non-java platforms
08:19	banisterfiend	yeah but it's a bit ugly and unwieldy isn't it? wouldn't ppl prefer to use a library that is designed with lisp/clojure in mind
08:20	Chousuke	nah
08:20	Chousuke	a lot of the java stuff works just fine with clojure.
08:20	Chousuke	people will write wrappers and libraries for the stuff that doesn't.
08:21	Chousuke	but to take an example, clojure.core has very few string functions
08:21	banisterfiend	yeah
08:21	Chousuke	because the java String methods provide everything that is needed.
08:21	banisterfiend	scala is having the same issue it looks like
08:22	Chousuke	it's not really an "issue". it's a feature :)
08:22	banisterfiend	some ppl say a language written on the jvm is both a blessing and curse, a blessing because all the libs are already tehre, but a curse in that using them feels like you're stepping outside the language into java-land, and you have to manually write a bunch of wrappers
08:23	Chousuke	the java integration in clojure tries to be as seamless as possible.
08:23	banisterfiend	yeah fair enough
08:23	banisterfiend	is 'programming clojure' a good book in your opinion?
08:23	Chousuke	in the best case, the only thing that tells you you're using a java method is that the operator starts with a . :)
08:24	Chousuke	I haven't read it, but I have heard a lot of good things about it.
08:57	etnt	hi folks, is possible to combine clojure and j2me ?
09:15	etnt	probably not then...
09:15	kotarak	etnt: you might ask some time later on.
09:15	kotarak	When more people from NA are active.
09:15	etnt	ok, will do, thx
09:16	kotarak	Or you can ask on the google group. There's a wider audience.
09:21	Chouser	I don't think I've heard of anyone trying.
09:29	pjstadig	~pjstadig entered the room and suddenly...
09:29	clojurebot	CLABANGO!
09:34	pjstadig	clabango.com is up
09:34	karmazilla	that is one ugly monkey :)
09:36	pjstadig	the eyes are...interesting
09:36	kotarak	yeah. It sure smoked the wrong things.
09:36	karmazilla	so, what is clabango?
09:36	pjstadig	clojurebot: clabango is http://www.clabango.com/
09:36	clojurebot	In Ordnung
09:36	kotarak	a port of django to clojure, IIRC
09:37	pjstadig	clojurebot: clabango is <reply>http://www.clabango.com/
09:37	clojurebot	c'est bon!
09:37	pjstadig	danlarkin is holding out on us
09:38	karmazilla	I notice Lau have a clabango repo on github but it is empty
09:39	pjstadig	ya he was trying to encourage danlarkin
09:40	karmazilla	is it based on ring?
09:41	pjstadig	i haven't seen any code myself
09:41	karmazilla	the mystery framework
10:12	danlarkin	karmazilla: yes, madison is based on ring
10:16	karmazilla	what do you do for models/ORM that django has?
10:18	danlarkin	don't have any yet :-/
10:26	danlarkin	me too
10:50	Drakeson	OK, I got fed up! I want to help improve access to documentations, from the repl (or slime). First I want to make sure what works and what doesn't.
10:50	Drakeson	1. Can `doc' and `repl-utils/javadoc' be unified?
10:51	Chouser	probably. if javadoc sees the arg is a var not a class, it could do what doc does.
10:52	Drakeson	is there any imaginable ambiguity as to which one should act?
10:52	cgrand	right now javadoc works also on instances
10:55	Drakeson	OK, so that one needs fixing (merging javadoc into doc, if possible)
10:55	Drakeson	2. Can we get a "more..." or "examples..." link in the output of `doc'? The link should be automatically generated. I am not advocating putting the link inside the doc-string.
10:57	Drakeson	3. Where should examples go (I want to help gather snippets and examples, when there is a one cannonical place for such).
10:58	Chouser	~examples
10:58	clojurebot	examples is http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Examples/API_Examples
11:01	Drakeson	that's not good enough, I prefer somewhere on github.
11:02	Drakeson	(since writing code in a textarea in a web-browser is much more fun than using a Real Editor)
11:03	Drakeson	what do you think of a clojure-examples package?
11:03	Drakeson	s/package/repos on github
11:07	Drakeson	is there any copyright or licensing issue with snippets posted on http://groups.google.com/group/clojure ?
11:10	Drakeson	There are many nice examples in the mailing-list or in the google-group that can picked up, polished, and put in an examples repository. Do I have to care about copyright for small pieces of code from those places?
11:11	Chouser	probably :-(
11:12	AWizzArd	you could ask the authors for permission
11:13	danlarkin	those in the US, at least, have copyright on whatever they produce as soon as it's produced
11:13	Drakeson	regardless of the "size"?
11:13	danlarkin	yup
11:14	kotarak	In Germany you cannot resign your copyright. No public domain here..
11:14	Chouser	that's why rhickey is a bit of a stickler about people not just randomly posting patches to the list
11:14	Drakeson	I guess Stallman has a point ;)
11:15	Drakeson	what should I do? should I gather them and put the posters name beside it?
11:15	Drakeson	what if I "rewrite" the example?
11:15	danlarkin	one could argue that by submitting their work to a public mailing list they're licensing it for redistribution...
11:16	AWizzArd	But it should be possible in most/all contries to license the use.
11:16	AWizzArd	Drakeson: A simple rewrite won't do, it must be your own work.
11:16	AWizzArd	Renaming vars/functions is not enough.
11:17	Chouser	people will probably not be very possessive about code they posted to the group
11:17	AWizzArd	Chouser: I was thinking about licensing it for 20$ per LOC.
11:17	danlarkin	indeed, just renaming things would be a derivative work
11:17	Chouser	AWizzArd: good luck with that.
11:17	AWizzArd	;)
11:18	Chouser	Drakeson: for any example you want to use, I imagine you could contact the author and most would easily grant permission for republishing or fixing up or whatever you need.
11:18	AWizzArd	Two US experts suggestd a few days ago to eliminate the laws regarding copyrights/patents completely.
11:19	danlarkin	I don't know if completely would be a good idea... but author's life + 75 years is a little much
11:19	Drakeson	Chouser: that takes care of the mailing list, how about wikipedia?
11:20	danlarkin	Drakeson: I think when you contribute to wikipedia you implicitly license your contribution CC?
11:20	Chouser	Drakeson: the wiki books may have excplicit licensing coverage for submissions -- you could look for that.
11:20	pjstadig	is there a TOS for wikibooks?
11:20	pjstadig	might have licensing
11:21	pjstadig	i think the Clojure Google Group should be renamed to the VIM Google Group
11:21	pjstadig	hehe
11:22	hiredman	cough
11:23	hiredman	I think traffic analysis of group and irc traffic will show far more emacs
11:24	hiredman	for about a week technomancy and cooldude127 would talking emacs in here for hours at a time
11:24	kotarak	pjstadig: I'm sorry
11:25	kotarak	But there are also lots of SLIME questions also....
11:25	Drakeson	OK, I imagine copyright can be dealt with by using enough communication. Now the next issue is how should it be organized. A flat directory of small files (possibly one per symbol, like defn.clj, ns.clj, etc.)? a few large .clj files with sections coded in the comments, (;;;SYMBOL: defn), etc?
11:26	eevar2	<-- vim guy turning to the dark side just because of lisps
11:26	AWizzArd	eevar2: you mean you now try Emacs?
11:27	eevar2	emacs+slime seems to have an edge over vim for cl/clojure, yup
11:27	AWizzArd	The Clojure support for Vim seems to be pretty good.
11:27	AWizzArd	I am not so sure if emacs+slime+Clojure have an edge over VimClojure+Gorilla.
11:27	pjstadig	kotarak: np. I was just joking
11:28	pjstadig	though if there is enough traffic about it VimClojure could maybe have its own list
11:28	AWizzArd	eevar2: for Common Lisp it is maybe true. I am using the emacs+slime+Clojure combo only because I am used to use emacs since many years, in which I was doing Common Lisp.
11:28	pjstadig	not that it's at that point yet...it's not overwhelming just yet
11:29	durka42	Drakeson: if you're putting this on something like github i'd suggest lots of small files, easier for linking and updates
11:29	AWizzArd	Maybe kotarak would like to implement a simplified version of Vim, written in Clojure? ;)
11:29	danlarkin	nooo not another clojure text editor
11:30	hiredman	we should stop talking about this or we might wake Lua "Emacs is minfestly better, and if you disgree you are blinded by religion" DK
11:30	pjstadig	AWizzArd: so you're saying I should learn vim?
11:30	eevar2	pjstadig, shoot for netbeans ;)
11:30	hiredman	manifestly
11:30	pjstadig	i've always used Eclipse for java, and tried it for Lisp too with my school projects
11:31	pjstadig	but broke down and learned emacs
11:31	pjstadig	then just figured emacs is the way to go with clojure since it's a lisp
11:31	Drakeson	durka42: good point.
11:32	AWizzArd	This is what I right now think too. But Enclojure (+ NetBeans) can potentially become the leading environment for Clojure.
11:33	pjstadig	i used to use netbeans, but found it slow and unintuitive, but maybe i'll have to cave
11:33	pjstadig	any test-is experts?
11:33	pjstadig	i'm trying to run the clojure.contrib.test-clojure.predicates tests on Clojure+TC
11:34	AWizzArd	I think on modern computers it really is not too slow anymore. That it eats a few hundred mbs of ram means nothing to those with 2+ gigs. It is what Emacs was for 32mb machines some years ago.
11:36	pjstadig	ner'mind
11:36	pjstadig	i think it's another array.clone() problem in PersistentArrayMap
11:43	pjstadig	sweet
11:43	pjstadig	predicates passes now
11:44	pjstadig	danlarkin: terracotta work is proceeding, how's the second half of our plan for world domination? (i.e. clabango)
11:44	pjstadig	:)
11:45	danlarkin	ha!
11:46	danlarkin	well enough
11:48	danlarkin	needs man hours
11:52	pjstadig	post to github and get some collab goin' on
11:56	danlarkin	aye I know I totally should
11:56	danlarkin	maybe tonight after work I'll actually do it
12:09	jayfields	sax is the way to go for parsing xml in clojure?
12:13	Chouser	I always recommend xmpp if you can handle a 3rd-party jar
12:14	Chouser	clojure.xml for sax or clojure.contrib.lazy-xml for either sax or xmpp
12:18	jayfields	thanks Chouser
12:18	replaca_	Q: what's the syntax for throwing a "main" func into my file? I don't see it on clojure.org
12:18	cgrand	Chouser: do you mean XmlPull?
12:20	kotarak	replaca_: (ns my.class (:gen-class)) (defn -main ...))
12:21	hiredman	replaca_: do mean main as in java's main?
12:21	Lau_of_DK	Hey all
12:21	cgrand	(:gen-class :main true)
12:21	hiredman	^-
12:21	Chouser	cgrand: yes, Xml Pull Parser
12:21	replaca_	Hmm, I'm not after a "java main" but rather a "clojure main". Is this a sensible idea? That is, a func that's invoked with the command line args
12:21	Chouser	oh
12:21	Chouser	xpp
12:21	Chouser	:-)
12:22	hiredman	replaca_: just put a function call the end of your file
12:22	hiredman	(main)
12:22	Chouser	http://www.extreme.indiana.edu/xgws/xsoap/xpp/
12:23	replaca_	hiredman: but then it gets called when I load the file as a ref, doesn't it? What I'm looking for is the equiv of python's if __name__ == "__main__":
12:24	replaca_	so when a load a file as a main thhing from the coomand line it's run, but not when it's simply referred to
12:25	hiredman	replaca_: ah
12:25	replaca_	*cdomand = command, but you knew that
12:25	kotarak	replaca_: (ns my.class (:gen-class)) (defn -main ...) ; see replaca_: (ns my.class (:gen-class)) (defn -main ...)
12:25	kotarak	oops
12:26	kotarak	replaca_: http://clojure.org/compilation was intended after the "see"
12:27	replaca_	kotarak: yeah, I don't want to make a java class here. Not the goal. I'm thinking like a pythonista here, but that's a good way to think for various kinds of scripting things
12:27	hiredman	replaca_: that is trickier, I think the best way would be to put functions in a seperate library file/namspace so you can refer to them
12:27	hiredman	and your consumer of the lib in it's own namespace, maybe with just a (main)
12:29	replaca_	hiredman: OK, maybe I'll have to do that. I think we should think about how this might work well in clojure since it's a super valuable idiom in python (and, iirc, in perl as well)
12:29	hiredman	you might be able to work something around file
12:30	hiredman	replaca_: take it to the group
12:30	replaca_	it lets you write scriptable units that can stand on their own as scripts or can be used as the basis for other things or repl use as a bundle of func
12:30	hiredman	clojurebot: latest?
12:30	clojurebot	latest is 1327
12:30	replaca_	hiredman: that sounds like being sent to the principal :-)
12:31	kotarak	This was discussed on the group already. I remember there was no non-hacky way to solve the problem and gen-class is maybe the Right Way.
12:31	Chouser	there was a proposal that looked pretty good, but it didn't go anywhere iirc.
12:32	replaca_	kotarak: yeah, but once you do gen-class, you're not scripting anymore
12:32	Chouser	for a var that would let you determine if your script was the command-line's "main" or not.
12:33	hiredman	actually
12:33	hiredman	hmmm
12:33	replaca_	Chouser: or maybe just a clojure invocation that would call a specific func with args
12:33	replaca_	seems like it shouldn't be too difficult
12:34	replaca_	a variation on the clojure.main invocation
12:34	replaca_	where the first arg was a func name
12:34	hiredman	replaca_: -e
12:35	hiredman	% java clojure.main -i f.clj -e "(f)"
12:35	hiredman	:foo
12:35	replaca_	hiredman: yeah, that might be a reasonable sol'n, but it doesn't give me command line args (or does it set command-line-args)
12:36	replaca_	?
12:36	hiredman	where f.clj contains (defn f [] (println :foo))
12:36	hiredman	dunno if that works with files properly namespaced and what not
12:36	replaca_	oh yeah, that should set command-line-args. Let me try it. Thanks!
12:37	replaca_	hiredman: we'll find out!
12:37	hiredman	you have to namespace qualify the function
12:37	replaca_	yup
13:20	hiredman	hmmm
13:20	hiredman	vimclojure seems to time out or something
13:20	kotarak	hiredman: another issue?
13:21	hiredman	when I start vim it works fine, but if stop and come back to vim it doesn't work
13:21	kotarak	What do you stop? The server?
13:21	hiredman	ugh
13:21	hiredman	er
13:21	hiredman	stop vimming
13:21	hiredman	leaving vim open
13:21	hiredman	well, it started working now
13:22	kotarak	There is no persistent connection. So there is nothing to time out.
13:22	hiredman	hmmm
13:22	hiredman	\ep just worked, but \sr is not working
13:22	kotarak	What is the error message?
13:23	hiredman	no error
13:23	kotarak	So what happens?
13:24	hiredman	I think it may not be a timeout thing
13:25	hiredman	\sr doesn't seem to work on files with no namespace
13:25	kotarak	As I said: there is nothing to timeout. The first invocation might be slower, because the server has to load the nails classes but afterwards there should be much of delay.
13:26	hiredman	I type \sr, and end up replacing whatever character is under the cursor with 'r'
13:26	hiredman	but \ep works
13:26	kotarak	what does :nmap \sr say?
13:27	kotarak	The namespace is not interesting for \sr. It must only be a Clojure buffer.
13:27	hiredman	No mapping found
13:27	kotarak	Then the mapping was not setup correctly or it was removed somehow.
13:27	hiredman	hmmmm
13:27	kotarak	What does :nmap \ep say?
13:27	hiredman	if I switch to another tab (with an open clojure file) there is a mapping
13:28	hiredman	another open clojure file
13:28	kotarak	What filetype has the original buffer?
13:28	hiredman	f.clj
13:28	hiredman	is the name of the file
13:28	kotarak	set filetype? (<- including ?)
13:29	Lau_of_DK	Slime, Swank, everything is updated to the latest rev of Clojure?
13:29	hiredman	filetype=clojure
13:29	kotarak	hmmm... then something went wrong when setting up the buffer key mappings.
13:29	kotarak	Try :e
13:29	hiredman	changes nothing
13:30	kotarak	Hmmm...
13:31	hiredman	:(
13:32	kotarak	hiredman: For now I can only think of :bd and reloading the file completely.
13:33	kotarak	Did you get an error when first loading the file?
13:33	hiredman	nope
13:33	kotarak	That might also prevent correct setup.
13:33	kotarak	hmmm
13:33	hiredman	ok
13:34	hiredman	the \sr binding doesn't apear to happen for any files opened other then the file specified on the command line
13:34	hiredman	if I vim foo.clj then within the running vim :tabe bar.clj \sr works for foo.clj and not for bar.clj
13:35	kotarak	Ok. Let me try here with tabs.
13:35	durka42	WFM :\
13:35	durka42	although i'm using macvim not console vim
13:36	hiredman	and it is only the \sr binding that seems to vanishor not get made
13:37	hiredman	if I bind \sr my self in the other tabs it works fine
13:37	kotarak	WFM also....
13:38	hiredman	sigh
13:38	hiredman	computers
13:38	kotarak	which kind of vim do you use? terminal or gvim?
13:39	hiredman	terminal right now
13:39	kotarak	Ok. Let me try there.
13:42	kotarak	Hmm... Also works in the terminal...
13:44	durka42	me too
13:45	durka42	with vim 7.2
13:45	kotarak	7.2.22 in terminal, 7.2.108 in gvim
13:46	hiredman	7.2.69
13:46	hiredman	I think, but I am not 100% sure I had this same behaviour last night with gvim
13:48	kotarak	I don't get this "for foo.clj and not for bar.clj" thing.... It should either work always or never... hrmph..
13:50	hiredman	ah
13:50	hiredman	I had pasted the remapping example from the readme in my .vimrc
13:51	hiredman	removing that, made \sr work everywhere
13:51	hiredman	kind of weird
13:51	kotarak	Hmm... that suggests, that the FileType autocmd is not triggered for the file on the command line. :(
13:53	kotarak	I hate special cases
14:16	rzezeski	kotarak, you were right about autoclose, it can act a little funky, especially with Clojure code and undo operations
14:20	durka42	the problem i have with autoclose is occasionally when i press ESC it decides to overwrite the next few characters with close-parens
14:21	Lau_of_DK	durka durka
14:21	Lau_of_DK	Are you guys still using Vim? I mean seriously, this is 2009.... Heard of Emacs anyone?
14:22	rzezeski	durka42, yea I don't think I'm going to use it much longer
14:23	Raynes	Lau_of_DK: I agree.
14:23	tashafa	emacs+slime ftw
14:23	gnuvince	whois Lau_of_DK
14:23	Raynes	Even though I use Enclojure.
14:23	Lau_of_DK	hehe
14:23	gnuvince	Vim is just fine.
14:24	Lau_of_DK	I mean, Vim... you might as well use nano
14:24	Lau_of_DK	Its old, outdated, lacks every feature in the book...
14:24	Lau_of_DK	Oh well, theres freedom to choose I guess :)
14:24	gnuvince	Lau_of_DK: you obviously don't know anything about Vim if you think it's the same as nano.
14:24	rzezeski	Lau_of_DK, I don't want to trade my superb text editor, not an OS
14:24	rzezeski	;)
14:24	durka42	nano is pretty terrible, it can't even handle long lines
14:24	rzezeski	for an OS*
14:25	Lau_of_DK	~ all Im saying is, that before I used to be a slow developer, always being retrained by my software, when suddenly...
14:25	clojurebot	CLABANGO!
14:25	Lau_of_DK	EMACS! hit me
14:25	Lau_of_DK	:)
14:25	ayrnieu	nano is absolutely wretched, should have never existed, has no merit, should not be used or recommended to anybody. Using its vi 'mockulation' twice in two days causes brain damage most of the time.
14:25	albino	vim is the shiznit Lau :)
14:26	tashafa	how is enclojure now these days? I used it a while ago and got discouraged when I was learning clojure
14:26	Lau_of_DK	hehe
14:28	rzezeski	Well, I used to be an Emacs only user, and then I switched to Vim and saw the light (ie, superior key bindings) and never looked back :)
14:29	Lau_of_DK	So you didnt just consider M-x viper? :)
14:29	rzezeski	editing modes is where its at
14:30	digash`	EMACS? Who uses that thing? It was, like, hacked in '80. And it uses this weird language called LISP.
14:30	rzezeski	does viper give me modes?
14:31	ayrnieu	rzez - yes.
14:31	javuchi	hello
14:31	Chouser	rzezeski: yep -- viper mode and viper-got-disabled mode
14:31	javuchi	what IDE do you prefer to use with clojure?
14:31	Lau_of_DK	rzezeski: This is all you need to know http://xkcd.com/378/
14:31	Lau_of_DK	javuchi: Emacs of course, coupled with Swank-clojure and slime
14:31	dnolen	haha, javuchi: you just came into the middle of Vim vs. Emacs, things never change.
14:32	Raynes	tashafa: It's good now. It's good enough for everyday editing.
14:32	rzezeski	Lau, I've seen that one before, very funny
14:32	ayrnieu	javuchi - I like unix for my integrated development environment^W^W^Wopen tool platform^W^W^Woperating system
14:32	Raynes	I use it and nothing else.
14:32	Raynes	Also, anyone complains about Emacs being bloated and being an OS in a window needs to leave this channel and kill themselves.
14:32	Raynes	:\|
14:32	ayrnieu	Raynes - suppose that someone compliments it for those very features.
14:33	javuchi	i know emacs, but also like netbeans
14:33	javuchi	Lau_of_DK: why emacs?
14:33	Raynes	I hate netbeans but love Enclojure.
14:33	Lau_of_DK	M-x netbeans
14:33	Raynes	It cuts both ways.
14:33	p_l	Raynes: it could be worse, you might be forced to use Eclipse
14:33	Raynes	javuchi: M-x haskell-mode
14:33	Raynes	p_l: I actually like Eclipse, but I don't like clojure-dev
14:33	Lau_of_DK	javuchi: First of it can do everything. Secondly you can compile straight to another buffer, and get some interactive development going, thirdly, there are no real alternatives
14:34	javuchi	i use emacs for CL
14:34	javuchi	is it that good with clojure?
14:34	Raynes	I would use emacs for Clojure if it wasn't for having to compile Clojure code and jar it myself.
14:34	Raynes	I'm lazy.
14:34	Raynes	And I don't like ant.
14:35	javuchi	i'm confused, there are 3 things:
14:35	javuchi	clojure-mode
14:35	Lau_of_DK	javuchi: http://bc.tech.coop/blog/081023.html
14:35	dnolen	javuchi: it's getting better. The release of cl-format 2.0 fixes one of the major missing things for which is readable macro-expansions.
14:35	javuchi	swank-clojure
14:35	p_l	Raynes: I've got rid of Eclipse after it eating too much memory :)
14:35	javuchi	clojure-extra
14:35	Lau_of_DK	javuchi: http://bc.tech.coop/blog/081023.html
14:35	dnolen	javuchi: clojure-mode is just syntax highlight
14:35	ayrnieu	thanks for putting those on separate lines, javuchi.
14:35	Lau_of_DK	Explains it all I think
14:36	dnolen	javuchi: swank-clojure is for SLIME interaction
14:36	Raynes	If you have the memory why not use it?
14:36	p_l	Raynes: it gets a little bad when Eclipse stops fitting into memory
14:37	javuchi	thanks Lau_of_DK
14:37	p_l	and FF isn't memory friendly too (and you need to use it at the same time)
14:37	Lau_of_DK	nps
14:37	Raynes	p_l: Never happened too me on my 2g machine.
14:37	Lau_of_DK	javuchi: On the same blog, you can also find a post which gives the greater overview of Emacs/Slime/Clojure, but it doesnt sound like you need it
14:37	p_l	Raynes: I had 512M :D
14:37	Raynes	Understandable.
14:38	javuchi	Lau_of_DK: i'm used to slime
14:38	Lau_of_DK	Then just start hacking
14:38	p_l	Raynes: changing it to 1.5G still didn't liberate me from constant swapping
14:38	javuchi	Lau_of_DK: but, in fact, this is the first time i'm goint to test clojure
14:38	javuchi	i don't even know how to start it!
14:38	Lau_of_DK	If you find Technomancy's Clojure-mode on Github it has an installer branch, which will clone, clojure, contrib, swank, slime and set it all right up for you
14:38	Lau_of_DK	Ive only heard good things about it javuchi
14:39	Lau_of_DK	Then technomancy is your friend
14:39	dnolen	javuchi: Lau_of_DK is right, I've set up a bunch of beginners with emas-starter-kit it works great. otherwise bill clementson's blog post covers the details for experience users.
14:39	Lau_of_DK	http://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/tree/installer
14:39	Lau_of_DK	Check that out
14:40	dnolen	emacs-starter-kit, i mean, also done by technomancy.
14:40	javuchi	so ok, where to absolutly start?
14:40	javuchi	don't confuse me :)
14:40	dnolen	haha, if you know emacs+slime, just do bill clementson, if you don't technomancy
14:41	kotarak	I just have to get the installation easier and some user education on how to setup a namespace, and one can omit the S from SLIME. hehe. ;)
14:42	javuchi	technomancy is another mode?
14:42	javuchi	so there are FOUR modes?
14:42	hiredman	technomancy is a dude
14:42	Raynes	javuchi: It's the same mode. Technomancy just slaps everything together.
14:42	hiredman	not an emacs mode
14:43	Raynes	I wonder how many people have disregarded Clojure as soon as they read "Emacs" in the wiki.
14:43	Raynes	I would guess a good 10-20 people.
14:44	hiredman	damn it
14:44	javuchi	emacs is a beast because it is completely different to the rest of the world
14:44	albino	Lisps have always had that problem, learning emacs+lisp at the same time is daunting
14:45	javuchi	i'm using it for years and still don't remember how cut/paste shortcuts are!!
14:45	Raynes	albino: And Clojure has IDE's being made, and one of them is pretty good for general Clojure development.
14:45	kotarak	albino: what does shiznit mean?
14:46	Raynes	kotarak: Mean's 'shit'.
14:46	kotarak	Oh. Ok.
14:46	kotarak	At least it's usable shit.
14:47	albino	kotarak: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shiznit "the shit"
14:47	hiredman	,(?map range $ 3 inc � inc)
14:47	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: ?map in this context
14:47	hiredman	,(pl (?map range $ 3 inc � inc))
14:47	clojurebot	(2 3 4)
14:47	albino	Raynes: yeah, that's good news
14:47	kotarak	geez... slang...
14:48	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: w00t?
14:48	javuchi1	Raynes: an IDE being done?
14:48	Raynes	javuchi1: 2 actually.
14:48	hiredman	Lau_of_DK: ?
14:48	dnolen	3 if you include Emacs ;)
14:48	Raynes	There is Enclojure for netbeans, and it's pretty decent for everyday development.
14:48	Lau_of_DK	(:map range $ 3 inc - inc?)) ?
14:49	albino	Sorry, I forget they're are probably lots of people here who aren't from the US
14:49	Raynes	Clojure-dev which... Well, it's Clojure-dev, lets just say that.
14:49	hiredman	clojurebot: pl?
14:49	clojurebot	examples is http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Examples/API_Examples
14:49	javuchi1	i had problems with netbeans ide
14:49	hiredman	clojurebot: transform?
14:49	clojurebot	transform is http://github.com/hiredman/odds-and-ends/blob/8a84e6ddbad9d71f714ba16c3e1239633228a7eb/functional.clj
14:50	Raynes	Who was it that said choosing between an IDE and Emacs is choosing whether you want something that just works good enough or something you can configure until the end of time.
14:50	Raynes	It's actually a very true statement.
14:50	Raynes	It's the compile and build button that got me.
14:50	Raynes	:D
14:50	Lau_of_DK	You mean S-tab in emacs? :)
14:51	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: Man thats nasty - What is that dot character you use ?
14:51	hiredman	interpunc
14:51	hiredman	�
14:51	Raynes	Lau_of_DK: Last time I checked, you couldn't automatically compile and build a clojure jar automatically without an ant script or something of the sort in Emacs.
14:52	Raynes	Noticed how I said automatically twice?
14:52	javuchi1	anyway, even if you waste your time configuring emacs, it is not going to get as good as Netbeans for the languages that Netbeans support well
14:52	Lau_of_DK	Raynes: I can set it up for you if you like, Emacs makes computing a breeze (see butterfly mode pasted above)
14:52	javuchi1	netbeans is an order of magnitude better for java/ruby/c
14:52	Lau_of_DK	javuchi1: Its already better than netbeans in my oppinion
14:54	javuchi1	in which directory to install clojure-mode?
14:55	Lau_of_DK	You choose
14:55	Lau_of_DK	in .emacs just do (add-to-list 'load-path "/path/to/clojure-mode")
14:55	Raynes	Any, you will be putting the path to it in your emacs configuratio..
14:55	Lau_of_DK	But Bill will set you right up :)
14:55	Raynes	What he said.
14:55	Lau_of_DK	slowmo :)
14:55	Raynes	:p
14:56	javuchi1	Lau_of_DK: i want a general instalation
14:56	javuchi1	/usr/share/site-lisp??
14:57	pjstadig	i put mine in ~/.emacs.d/clojure-mode
14:58	Raynes	Emacs Haskell-mode is awesome.
15:00	Lau_of_DK	pjstadig: I did the same :)
15:00	javuchi1	oh my god!
15:00	javuchi1	it runs SBCL!
15:01	Raynes	I'll have to say that I like the name more than anything else >_>
15:01	Lau_of_DK	~ you thought you liked it better than anything else, when suddenly...
15:01	clojurebot	CLABANGO!
15:02	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: www.clabango.com
15:02	javuchi1	how to setup clojure-mode?
15:02	Raynes	:\|
15:02	javuchi1	i cannot imagine windows users trying to configure this
15:03	javuchi1	it would be vey funny
15:03	javuchi1	;)
15:03	kotarak	javuchi1: windows users can use clojure-box
15:03	Raynes	javuchi1: I did, and I succeeded.
15:03	Lau_of_DK	javuchi1: Read and understand that blog post from Bill C
15:03	Lau_of_DK	He takes you through setup and installation step by step
15:03	Raynes	I'm a windows user, and I did very will install Clojure mode and get it working before ending up using Enclojure anyways.
15:03	Raynes	well*
15:04	javuchi1	for configuring SBCL/slime I just did apt-get install sbcl slime
15:04	Raynes	I downloaded the snapshot!
15:04	Raynes	Cause that's how I roll.
15:04	Raynes	:)
15:04	Lau_of_DK	lol
15:05	cmvkk_	I just typed my e-mail address as @gmail.clj :/
15:05	pjstadig	haha
15:06	Lau_of_DK	lol
15:06	kotarak	hehe :)
15:06	pjstadig	~suddenly
15:06	clojurebot	CLABANGO!
15:06	pjstadig	Lau_of_DK: clabango.com is live
15:06	kotarak	The next level is (@ user gmail.clj) ;)
15:07	Lau_of_DK	pjstadig: Whats its purpose? Just for launching CottaBango ?
15:07	danlarkin	terrabango
15:07	pjstadig	hehe
15:07	danlarkin	hahah oh god
15:07	danlarkin	the monkey!!
15:07	pjstadig	terraclotta
15:08	javuchi1	errrr
15:08	javuchi1	how to use ant????
15:08	javuchi1	hahaha
15:08	Lau_of_DK	well, you type "ant"
15:08	cmvkk_	usually just typing 'ant' works.
15:08	Lau_of_DK	copyclabangocats all over
15:08	javuchi1	i don't have it installed
15:09	Lau_of_DK	on Linux, sudo apt-get install ant
15:09	Lau_of_DK	on Windows, 1) Install Linux 2) sudo apt-get install ant
15:09	Lau_of_DK	On Mac its the same as Windows
15:09	cmvkk_	what if they're using redhat or gentoo or something?
15:09	Lau_of_DK	Same as Mac :)
15:09	kotarak	cmvkk_: 1) install debian 2) sudo apt-get install ant
15:10	javuchi1	it uses gcj
15:10	javuchi1	isn't that beast dead already?
15:10	javuchi1	who uses gcj?
15:11	Lau_of_DK	it does
15:12	hiredman	eh
15:14	javuchi1	fuck! how to install git on debian?
15:14	pjstadig	git-core
15:14	Raynes	apt-get git
15:14	Raynes	Naw, I don't know.
15:14	Lau_of_DK	javuchi1: No swearing on this channel, you know how Rich gets
15:14	kotarak	apt-get install mercurial
15:14	hiredman	is this a brand new install or something? it sounds like you don't have anything installed
15:14	pjstadig	apt-get install git-core
15:14	Lau_of_DK	javuchi1: on debian you need the backports probably, git-core there is 1.6
15:14	pjstadig	oh
15:15	pjstadig	i don't know about debian, i'm on ubuntu
15:15	Raynes	apt-get 1 large supreme pizza delivered to 54334 state highway 13 eldridge please.
15:15	javuchi1	i don't use git nor ant for nothing
15:15	javuchi1	Des:2 http://ftp.debian.org lenny/main git-core 1:1.5.6.5-3 [3426kB]
15:16	javuchi1	do i need a special version of slime too?
15:16	Lau_of_DK	javuchi1: You might need Ubuntu :)
15:17	Drakeson	javuchi1: http://github.com/nablaone/slime/commits/master
15:17	javuchi1	Lau_of_DK: debian is right
15:17	durka42	Raynes: http://www.beigerecords.com/cory/Things_I_Made/PizzaParty
15:18	Lau_of_DK	javuchi1: Not for you :)
15:18	Drakeson	javuchi1: have you read this ---> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Getting_Started#Emacs_.2F_Slime_Integration
15:18	javuchi1	i'm simply too lazy and like to protest
15:19	Drakeson	javuchi1: you need upstream versions of swank-clojure and slime for things to work with clojure.
15:20	Drakeson	javuchi1: actually, I get my slime from git://git.boinkor.net/slime.git
15:21	javuchi1	there is a lot of things to do
15:24	javuchi1	eeeemmmm
15:24	javuchi1	there is a problem
15:24	Drakeson	?
15:24	javuchi1	I actually don't want to substitute my default lisp-program
15:24	javuchi1	which is sbcl
15:24	Drakeson	you don't need to
15:24	Drakeson	I run clojure by M-- M-x slime RET clojure RET
15:25	Drakeson	sbcl is the main.
15:26	javuchi1	somebody should be packaging this for ubuntu/debian
15:26	Drakeson	javuchi1: let me try to streamline what needs to be done to get clojure+slime under debian. (btw, what is the version of emacs that you are using?)
15:26	javuchi1	i'm using plain Lenny
15:27	javuchi1	slime from repos
15:27	eevar	do I have to add params to get swank-clojure starting the server jvm, or does it pick that version by default?
15:27	Drakeson	don't use slime from repos.
15:27	javuchi1	Drakeson: until now i was happy
15:28	Drakeson	javuchi1: I cannot remember the details but someone in #emacs was having problems with slime (from repos) + clojure.
15:28	javuchi1	i'm downloading the git version
15:28	javuchi1	i have a slow connection
15:29	javuchi1	i can't understand why it occupes so much space!!
15:29	Drakeson	javuchi1: let me try to streamline what needs to be done to get a debian+emacs+slime+clojure setup.
15:29	javuchi1	Receiving objects: 30% (4257/13782), 6.57 MiB \| 34 KiB/s
15:30	javuchi1	nice Drakeson
15:30	Drakeson	probably other people have written about it, though :p
15:31	javuchi1	http://riddell.us/clojure/
15:31	javuchi1	may be that?
15:32	javuchi1	it's an impressive amount of things to do
15:33	javuchi1	somebody should be packaging this
15:33	Drakeson	you don't need to do all that.
15:33	javuchi1	if i were a debian developer, i would do
15:33	Raynes	durka42: I cross-platformized my reader. (.replaceAll (.replaceAll (slurp f) "\r" " ") "\n" ""))
15:33	durka42	nice
15:34	pjstadig	i had started working on a debian package for clojure
15:34	Raynes	Before someone askes me why I didn't use filter, I had to have a space in place of the \r\n or \n's.
15:34	pjstadig	i'm not a debian developer though
15:34	Drakeson	javuchi1: the problem is that things are changing to quickly at the moment. packaging would only make sense when the rate of important changes slows down.
15:35	pjstadig	packaging would make sense if it was automated like with a nightly build
15:35	hiredman	Raynes: use map
15:35	durka42	also, replaceAll takes a regex
15:35	hiredman	it sure does
15:35	Chousuke	Raynes: I think that would be nicer with ->; (-> (slurp f) (.replaceAll "\r" " ") (.replaceAll "\n" " ")) :)
15:35	Raynes	Oh really? Cool.
15:35	hiredman	and reading a file into a string is icky
15:35	Raynes	...
15:35	mecolin	hello
15:36	Drakeson	pjstadig: imagine a post laziness package, with half clojure-contrib stuff not yet updated to the new API.
15:36	Chouser	(apply str (map #(get {\r \space \n nil} % %)) (slurp f)))
15:36	hiredman	(not that it stops me from doing it)
15:36	javuchi1	why slime is so big?
15:36	Chousuke	javuchi1: git downloads the entire history.
15:36	javuchi1	Receiving objects: 33% (4569/13782), 12.05 MiB \| 31 KiB/s
15:36	Chousuke	javuchi1: you might want to do git clone --depth 1
15:36	javuchi1	Chousuke: how to avoid that?
15:36	durka42	(reduce #(.replaceAll %1 (first %2) (second %2)) (slurp f) {"\r" " ", "\n" ""})
15:36	pjstadig	i'm just saying. everyone does it manually now. no reason it couldn't be packaged for easier install
15:37	Raynes	I give up.
15:37	Chousuke	pjstadig: not until 1.0 at least :)
15:38	Drakeson	javuchi1: the whole slime + history is about 54M
15:38	mecolin	how to resolve the following problem, exception: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.lang.LazyCons (clojure and clojure-contrib from trunk)
15:38	javuchi1	this simply gets people out of clojure
15:38	pjstadig	has anyone thought about how to make clojure work with #! scripts?
15:38	javuchi1	i have a slow connection
15:38	pjstadig	i know there's a hack in the wiki
15:38	javuchi1	its too long
15:39	Chousuke	mecolin: the code you're trying to run is not full-lazy compatible.
15:39	pjstadig	but something that sets up the classpath and such
15:39	Drakeson	javuchi1: I see your point. 50M of 54M slime is just history.
15:39	javuchi1	pjstadig: a package will be REALLY welcom
15:39	Chousuke	pjstadig: #! is a comment in clojure so all you need is a launcher script.
15:40	Raynes	Is my code /really/ all that bad :\
15:40	javuchi1	pjstadig: even it is a very experimental one
15:40	pjstadig	right but you can't use a launcher script as a #! for another bash script
15:40	durka42	Chouser: need \return and \newline
15:40	durka42	Raynes: no
15:41	Chousuke	pjstadig: hmm.
15:41	Chouser	durka42: ah, sure enough. I should have warned that was untested. :-/
15:41	Chouser	Raynes: no, what you had was perfectly fine.
15:41	Lau_of_DK	(ns my-domain
15:41	Lau_of_DK	(:use (compojure html http validation control))
15:41	Lau_of_DK	(:load "csv"
15:42	Lau_of_DK	"logic"
15:42	Lau_of_DK	"graphics"))
15:42	Lau_of_DK
15:42	Lau_of_DK	Why does this boork in the latest rev of Clojure?
15:42	pjstadig	hmm
15:42	javuchi1	i have to go now. almost an our and haven't finished even 50% of the installation!!
15:42	javuchi1	too much
15:42	Drakeson	what does deployment in github mean? can we make it create a zip file of the sources only (excluding certain directories?)
15:42	javuchi1	i'll continue tomorrow
15:42	pjstadig	#!/home/paul/bin/clojure
15:42	pjstadig	(println "test")
15:42	pjstadig	that worked with a launcher script
15:42	mecolin	Chousuke: how can I convert this code to fully-lazy compatible ?
15:42	pjstadig	i thought bash had a problem with it last time i tried
15:43	Chousuke	mecolin: hm
15:43	hiredman	erm
15:43	kotarak	pjstadig: it's not portable. depends on the system you are running.
15:43	Chousuke	mecolin: http://clojure.org/lazy
15:43	pjstadig	specifically Stephen Gilardi's launcher from clojure-contrib
15:44	pjstadig	so what would you have to do a simple binary launcher?
15:44	durka42	couldn't you do #!/bin/bash /path/to/script
15:44	hiredman	uh
15:45	hiredman	bash would expect /path/to/script to be a bash file, I believe
15:45	pjstadig	kotarak: you mean the path? or the method?
15:45	kotarak	pjstadig: using a #! script as #! for another one
15:45	pjstadig	k
15:45	durka42	oh, i see
15:46	pjstadig	well at least if i can get it to work on my computer I can write clojure scripts, which would be fun
15:46	hiredman	I seem to recall that #! is not handled by the shell
15:46	Drakeson	pjstadig: what about the startup time? is it not too long for a script?
15:47	hiredman	"The shebang is actually a human-readable instance of a magic number in the executable file"
15:47	kotarak	I recall something like the #! is exec() and hence must be binary. But that was for older unixes.
15:48	hiredman	interesting
15:48	Lau_of_DK	Ok - Where is include-js in the latest compojure?
15:49	pjstadig	Drakeson: maybe, but I might find application for it
15:49	pjstadig	it would be a way to sharpen my clojure foo
15:49	pjstadig	and more fun!
15:50	Lau_of_DK	I asked you boys a question...
15:50	pjstadig	CLABANGO!
15:50	digash`	pjstadig: you can use #/usr/bin/env clj
15:50	Raynes	durka42: Thanks for bringing it to my attention that replaceAll takes a regex. :D
15:51	digash`	pjstadig: #!/usr...
15:51	durka42	although not a clojure regex literal, which is slightly annoying
15:51	pjstadig	so if got all of the clojure.contrib.test-clojure tests (except for the evaluation test suite) running on TC
15:51	pjstadig	not that they're comprehensive
15:52	pjstadig	even loading clojure.contrib.test-clojure.evaluation throws an error
15:52	pjstadig	user=> (require 'clojure.contrib.test-clojure.evaluation)
15:52	pjstadig	java.lang.Exception: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/if (evaluation.clj:169)
15:53	pjstadig	which is (I think) what one of the tests is testing
15:53	pjstadig	i think it's confused
15:53	Drakeson	pjstadig: I didn't follow the discussion above, and I don't know if the #! problem is solved. I just tested and I can write clj scripts. (#!/usr/bin/clj)
15:53	danlarkin	Drakeson: it depends on your OS
15:54	danlarkin	for instance, I have to do #!/usr/bin/env clj
15:54	Drakeson	danlarkin: what is your OS?
15:54	Chousuke	Drakeson: that's the better way in any case
15:54	danlarkin	osx
15:54	Chousuke	er
15:54	Chousuke	danlarkin:
15:54	kotarak	ah, ye olde env hack... :)
15:54	danlarkin	I believe POSIX specifies that you can't hash-bang a non-binary file
15:55	danlarkin	that's why you've gotta use the aforementioned env hack
15:55	hiredman	erm
15:55	p_l	... non-binary?
15:55	danlarkin	p_l: shell script
15:56	kotarak	p_l: eg. a shell script, everything starting in #!
15:56	p_l	danlarkin: on POSIX, everything is a binary stream of octets
15:56	p_l	(or should be)
15:56	durka42	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shebang_(Unix)#Solving_shebang_problems_with_the_env_program
15:56	kotarak	and you may only pass _one_ argument.
15:57	digash`	$ file ~/bin/clj ==> clj: a bash script text executable
15:57	p_l	#! is just conventional magic number for specifying interpreter (mind you, ELF header also contains link to an interpreter)
15:57	danlarkin	we're not all using ELF binaries
15:57	p_l	danlarkin: it's just an example
15:58	danlarkin	also of note, "#!/usr/bin/env clj" didn't work when "~/bin" was on my PATH, but did when I changed it to "$HOME/bin"
15:59	vy	danlarkin: That's why people distrubute .bat and .sh files together.
15:59	Drakeson	danlarkin: I always put $HOME in the path, instead of ~
15:59	kotarak	danlarkin: ~ is shell magic
16:00	pjstadig	danlarkin: yeah what's your problem dude! ;)
16:00	danlarkin	:'(
16:01	Drakeson	is it possible to compile a wrapper to native code?
16:01	pjstadig	gcj!
16:01	Chouser	Drakeson: not sure, but I once tried to compile a rapper to native code.
16:01	Chouser	~haskell
16:01	clojurebot	Yo dawg, I heard you like Haskell, so I put a lazy thunk inside a lazy thunk so you don't have to compute while you compute.
16:02	Drakeson	like putting something in clojure's ant that builds a "happy non-text binary" executable to keep some OS's happy
16:03	mattrepl	Drakeson: with JNA, yes. if it's a C shared library (or C++ without symbol name mangling)
16:04	kotarak	Drakeson: int main(int argc, char argv[]) { char args[] = { "/usr/bin/java", "-cp", "clojure.jar", "my.main.class" }; execv(args[0], args); return -1 }
16:04	Chouser	whoa. C.
16:05	pjstadig	yeah no kidding dude
16:05	pjstadig	would it be that much trouble to have a simple binary wrapper
16:05	danlarkin	there's always hashdot
16:05	pjstadig	but you'd probably want to setup the classpath with more than clojure.jar
16:05	Raynes	(.replaceAll (slurp f) "\r(\n)?" " ")) :D
16:06	hiredman	java picks up the CLASSPATH environment variable if not overriden by -cp
16:06	pjstadig	even through a wrapper?
16:07	kotarak	pjstadig: one can also access the in environment.
16:07	kotarak	ah, yes.
16:07	hiredman	pjstadig: I believe so
16:07	kotarak	The Java also inherits the environment from the parent process.
16:07	pjstadig	it would be nice, though, if the wrapper would automatically pickup things in the ~/.clojure or /usr/lib/clojure directory or something
16:08	Drakeson	I guess a C wrapper is not perfect but might be good enough.
16:08	danlarkin	the clj script should do that
16:08	danlarkin	Drakeson: look at hashdot
16:08	pjstadig	but the clj script cannot be used for #! scripts
16:09	hiredman	lisppaste8: url?
16:09	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
16:09	pjstadig	at least not portably
16:09	danlarkin	pjstadig: hm? why not?
16:09	pjstadig	haha
16:09	lisppaste8	hiredman pasted "how I manage my classpath" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76979
16:09	pjstadig	i thought that's what the whole discussion was about
16:09	kotarak	pjstadig: but the C wrapper could just execute "sh clj-script"....
16:10	pjstadig	kotarak: true
16:10	Drakeson	hiredman: I just use java 6 :p
16:11	durka42	Drakeson: how does that help?
16:11	hiredman	yes, please explain
16:12	Drakeson	durka42,hiredman: instead of putting all .jar files in the env var CLASSPATH, you can just say, e.g. export CLASSPATH="$HOME/.local/share/java/*"
16:12	Drakeson	(that's where I put my jars)
16:13	hiredman	interesting
16:13	Drakeson	(actually I symlink the actual clojure.jar, etc. into that directory)
16:15	Drakeson	also I symlink swank-clojure/swank into that directory. To make swank happy as well, I actually have to set: export CLASSPATH="$HOME/.local/share/java:$HOME/.local/share/java/*"
16:17	Drakeson	I think a good clj script wrapper (whether it can be compiled by java or written in C), should behave like python. (you set PYTHONPATH and PYTHONSTARTUP in your path).
16:27	Drakeson	danlarkin: hashdot looks interesting, though apt-cache search hashdot returns nothing.
16:28	danlarkin	that's a shame
16:28	danlarkin	it seems useful
16:31	pjstadig	hashdot looks interesting
16:31	pjstadig	anyone using it with clojure?
16:31	Drakeson	pjstadig: it even has clj.hdp in it
16:31	Drakeson	how can I run java as client? clj script runs java server by default. java -help \| grep client returns nothing
16:32	pjstadig	-server just uses a bigger starting heap
16:33	hiredman	pjstadig: nope
16:33	hiredman	-server uses the hotspot vm, which does jiting and all kinds of optimizing
16:33	Drakeson	it's startup takes much longer
16:33	pjstadig	d'oh
16:33	hiredman	-client does not
16:33	pjstadig	oh right
16:33	pjstadig	yeah
16:34	Drakeson	a short-lived script wrapper should use the client, then
16:34	pjstadig	i knew that somewhere in the deep recesses of my brain
16:34	pjstadig	can't you change the clj script?
16:35	hiredman	everyone should just setup their OS to fire up nailgun
16:35	hiredman	at boot
16:35	Drakeson	sure. I just cannot figure the right command line option for java to run the client
16:35	Drakeson	my java somehow does not have -client :(
16:35	pjstadig	o
16:35	hiredman	shrug
16:36	hiredman	maybe 6 is all hotspot now?
16:37	kotarak	hiredman: nailgun works surprisingly smooth for its last update in 2005 :)
16:37	hiredman	yeah
16:37	hiredman	ng clojure.main starts up so fast
16:38	pjstadig	apt-get ??
16:39	kotarak	well, that's because the JVM is already running :) So starting up is maybe so wrong word... ;)
16:40	hiredman	well
16:40	hiredman	the repl starts
16:40	danlarkin	Ooo nailgun looks very useful
16:41	pjstadig	nailgun + hashdot
16:42	hiredman	I may have to setup crontab on my machines to fireup nailgun at boot
16:43	Drakeson	apt-cache search nailgun nope :(
16:43	kotarak	http://www.martiansoftware.com/nailgun/index.html
16:44	Drakeson	what does it do? does it keep them all in a single process or it forks for every new "sub-shell"?
16:44	pjstadig	haha
16:44	pjstadig	i love the google ads on that site
16:45	hiredman	you get a single vm instance
16:45	pjstadig	"Grex 23 Gauge Pin Nailer"
16:45	kotarak	Drakeson: the client is like the X Windows system: it just relies cli arguments and I/O
16:45	kotarak	relays
16:47	Drakeson	pjstadig: get ad-block-plus firefox extention and filter google-analytics :p
16:48	Drakeson	kotarak: so if there is any problem the whole vm goes belly up? (for instance, I got 2 jvm crashes this week)
16:49	bitbckt	clojurebot: ~haskell
16:49	clojurebot	Yo dawg, I heard you like Haskell, so I put a lazy thunk inside a lazy thunk so you don't have to compute while you compute.
16:49	kotarak	Drakeson: well. If you kill the vm, it's dead, I suppose. Then you have to restart it.
16:50	bitbckt	,(doc send)
16:50	clojurebot	"([a f & args]); Dispatch an action to an agent. Returns the agent immediately. Subsequently, in a thread from a thread pool, the state of the agent will be set to the value of: (apply action-fn state-of-agent args)"
16:50	bitbckt	(sorry... showing off)
16:50	bitbckt	hiredman: :D
16:50	pjstadig	~suddenly
16:50	hiredman	bitbckt: ?
16:50	clojurebot	CLABANGO!
16:51	bitbckt	hiredman: showing off clojurebot to great acclaim
16:51	Drakeson	is it possible to have the vm in a "forkable" state, and have very quick forks (just memcpy the appropriate memory area to the new vm process for forking)?
16:51	hiredman	~roulette
16:51	clojurebot	click
16:51	hiredman	~roulette
16:51	clojurebot	bang
16:52	bitbckt	one of my favorites...
16:52	kotarak	Drakeson: forking on any sane unix is copy-on-write. And hence fast. But it's not portable, eg. to Windows, AFAIK.
16:52	p_l	not to WinAPI
16:53	bitbckt	clojurebot: brain dump
16:53	clojurebot	brain dump is http://clj.thelastcitadel.com/clojurebot
16:53	kotarak	forking is indeed similar to clojure's persistent collections :)
16:53	bitbckt	hmm
16:54	Drakeson	I only ever have to do with Unices. Do I qualify to get a fast fork?
16:54	kotarak	You probably do, but does the JVM support forks?
16:55	hiredman	bitbckt: that's been throwing execptions, and I haven't dealt with it
16:55	hiredman	~google java fork
16:55	clojurebot	First, out of 221000 results is:
16:55	clojurebot	fork process in Java
16:55	clojurebot	http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t151556-fork-process-in-java.html
16:59	Drakeson	seriously, can I achieve that using JNI or JNA? (I don't need platform independence, as much as Sun needed to appeal to Windows developers).
16:59	p_l	Drakeson: Windows isn't the only other OS :)
16:59	kotarak	Drakeson: you can probably go down to a call to fork() in the libc. But don't ask what happens afterwards....
17:00	kotarak	You have to the children/parent checking and the like.
17:00	kotarak	to do
17:01	bitbckt	hiredman: ah. that's alright... I just wanted to find something 'impressive' for it to say for the live audience ;-)
17:02	hiredman	audience?
17:02	bitbckt	easy crowd
17:02	bitbckt	yeah... asking about bots, and yours came to mind as a good example
17:02	Drakeson	is it written in clojure?
17:02	hiredman	clojurebot: where are you?
17:02	clojurebot	http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/tree/master
17:02	hiredman	yes
17:03	hiredman	~def count
17:03	hiredman	~jdoc String
17:04	walters	Drakeson: i think the right approach is to just fix the VM startup in general
17:05	walters	Drakeson: right now it involves unzipping jar files - that's broken
17:05	walters	Drakeson: should just be mmap() on a binary format
17:05	walters	Drakeson: it also re-verifies the jars which is also busted
17:06	gnuvince_	Hello
17:07	Drakeson	I have yet to hear a good thing about java other than the sheer size of its library :(
17:07	durka42	gnuvince: congratulations!
17:07	pjstadig	gnuvince_: congrats! which unis?
17:07	bitbckt	gnuvince_: great!
17:08	Drakeson	~ congraJulations!
17:08	clojurebot	excusez-moi
17:08	bitbckt	>_<
17:08	gnuvince_	pjstadig: two universities in Quebec, Universit� de Montr�al and Universit� de Sherbrooke.
17:09	walters	Drakeson: heh, well i appreciate the available tools and the general maturity of the platform, but this particular issue is just one of those things that should have been fixed long ago
17:09	kotarak	Drakeson: hotspot jit
17:09	gnuvince_	I now need to figure where I'll go :)
17:09	hiredman	which you get from -server
17:09	kotarak	gnuvince_: Uh. Die Qual der Wahl. The agony of choice. (freely translated)
17:13	pjstadig	gnuvince_: easy, just go to the better one. :)
17:14	Drakeson	kotarak: I am new to java, and I hate the "premature-standardized APIs" in java. python interfaces are better designed, IMHO. I haven't got to a point to see JIT optimization in action, yet, so my opinion might change.
17:14	gnuvince_	pjstadig: I have other criterias :)
17:15	Drakeson	gnuvince_: I would go to the larger city. (is Sherbrooke even a city?)
17:16	hiredman	the library has all kinds of cool stuff in it, but a lot of it is not "maintence script" type stuff
17:16	kotarak	Drakeson: I also thought "Ugh, Java... Big... Slow..." (That's why I almost missed Clojure) But a lot of people with a lot more knowledge than me (eg. rhickey) told me that there is Java and that there is the JVM. That these are two horses of a different color and that the JVM is quite a nice piece of software engineering.
17:17	p_l	kotarak: there's also "-server" command line switch
17:17	cp2	p_l: -server is automagically implied in java 6
17:17	Drakeson	kotarak: I appreciate JVM itself, but reading tons of javadocs or java-examples-written-by-idiots-over-the-interwebs is giving me headaches.
17:17	hiredman	like, when was the last time you wrote a python script that used a threadpool?
17:17	p_l	cp2: good to hear. i still add it manually anyway
17:18	cp2	p_l: ;)
17:18	Chousuke	Drakeson: javadoc is still good
17:18	p_l	hiredman: over 2 years, cause python threading is broken by design
17:18	hiredman	p_l: and it does state wrong of course :P
17:18	kotarak	Drakeson: see: fighting off Python missionaries is giving me headaches. So nothing is perfect. ;)
17:19	p_l	hiredman: I don't have anything against state... I have a lot against GIL :D
17:21	hiredman	the point is, lots of the java "standard" library is threading stuff
17:22	hiredman	so, yeah, java libraries are great, but not really targeted at light scripting tasks
17:23	p_l	and applications where "enterprise" && "good" actually try not to contradict themselves they don't use much of it :P
17:23	hiredman	what?
17:23	p_l	hiredman: message passing :)
17:24	hiredman	uh
17:25	hiredman	message passing if anything requires dealing with threading and state even more, you just have the library do it for you
17:26	p_l	hiredman: but you can make it a FIFO operation, a'la erlang :)
17:26	hiredman	p_l: but you have to manage the queue, pass messages to the corrent process, etc
17:27	hiredman	correct
17:27	hiredman	(erlang process)
17:27	hiredman	the erlang process have to run on something... (threads)
17:28	hiredman	green or otherwise
17:28	p_l	hiredman: erlang processes use shared-nothing architecture, so threading primitives are much simpler
17:28	p_l	while what you will see getting taught often will be mutexes everywhere >_>
17:29	Drakeson	I am trying to gather examples over the net, and put them in git://github.com/gilaras/clojure-example.git
17:30	hiredman	p_l: what I am trying to say is, java provides the stuff you could use to "build" erlang in its libraries
17:31	Drakeson	hiredman: java (+clj) might be the way to the future. It has many mistakes to fix first, though.
17:31	hiredman	regardless of the interface the erlang lanuage provides to programmers, all the bookkeeping and what-not is done somewhere by someone
17:31	hiredman	shrug
17:32	hiredman	Drakeson: whichever, I am just saying that the java libraries provide a lot of cool stuff, that you will never see if all you do is write little one off scripts
17:33	hiredman	I've been exposed to way more of java's standard libraries since starting with clojure then I was when I ever bothered to write java
17:34	hiredman	Drakeson: what issues?
17:34	Chousuke	one point for Clojure for the fact that that JVM advances are separate from Clojure advances.
17:34	Chousuke	If the JVM gets fast startup due to modularisation or some other trickery, Clojure benefits immediately.
17:34	Drakeson	hiredman: I do care about "one-off" scripts, or startup time, etc.
17:35	p_l	Drakeson: make a "java machine" like lispmachines and have it provide a preloaded, established and optimized image? :D
17:35	kotarak	Well, there are screws and nails... one tool to saw them all?
17:35	Chousuke	p_l: or he could run a java VM on the background for clojure :)
17:36	slashus3	p_l: How is the performance on JDK7?
17:36	hiredman	Drakeson: I don't see that improving any time soon, if you look at what java provides that is clearly not the niche they where trying to fill
17:36	p_l	slashus3: I haven't run anything to test performance, but I can say that X11 is as broken as it have been since 1.0
17:36	Chousuke	hiredman: actually, I think they're taking startup time very seriously nowadays
17:36	pjstadig	rhickey: how'd the interview go?
17:38	p_l	slashus3: I remember however my friends reactions to 1.5 and 1.6 (and compared to me, who mainly just used java apps, he was a hardcore java programmer) and he was quite enthusiastic about 1.7 :)
17:38	Chousuke	It probably won't be until after JDK8 that there will be any really visible changes though.
17:39	hiredman	Chousuke: which is, what?, at least two years down the road
17:39	p_l	I can say though that JDK7 is better at memory management than Firefox :>
17:39	p_l	my netbeans process is actually apparently getting _smaller_
17:39	hiredman	if you want to use clojure for little one off scripts, nailgun seems the way to go
17:39	Drakeson	to appeal to "script kiddies", or the "open-source community" they should take scripting seriously. "Small useful scripts" is the entry point for many future contributors.
17:40	Chousuke	Drakeson: "script kiddie" is a very negative term :/
17:40	Chousuke	no-one wants to appeal to them
17:40	p_l	they make interesting wall decorations though
17:41	hiredman	the skillsmatter podcast is still "coming soon" :(
17:43	p_l	1) track the kiddie down 2) "hire" a security consultant for 10k classified as damages 3) call law enforcement
17:44	Raynes	I just realize I have Clojure plastered over everything I do on the internet. It's in my signature on forums, it's in my profiles on websites. It's even on my twitter.
17:44	Raynes	O_O
17:44	Drakeson	Chousuke: I didn't mean script kiddie. I meant "script" + "kiddie" (literally), like high school or undergrads kids trying to write small scripts, as opposed to "enterprise oldies".
17:44	kotarak	hiredman: "skillsmatter podcast"?
17:45	hiredman	http://skillsmatter.com/podcast/java-jee/clojure-for-java-programmers
17:45	Raynes	O_O
17:45	kotarak	Uh. Bots writing bots. In true Lisp spirit of macro writing macros. :)
17:47	hiredman	~hiredman is also <reply>#who: I heard hiredman failed the turing test.
17:47	clojurebot	Alles klar
17:47	hiredman	~hiredman
17:47	clojurebot	hiredman is an evil genius.
17:47	durka42	~hiredman
17:47	clojurebot	hiredman is a three-toed sloth
17:47	Chousuke	hm
17:47	Chousuke	if you write a macro-writing macro that writes macro-writing macros, is that an infinite loop? :/
17:48	p_l	Chousuke: yes
17:48	Raynes	Chousuke: Yes.
17:48	Raynes	A very /advanced/ infinite loop.
17:48	hiredman	Chousuke: while it does write the macro, it may not call the macro
17:48	kotarak	Chousuke: or will there be The First Macro? Deep down in the lower-levels of the systems?
17:48	hiredman	might not
17:50	pjstadig	later people
17:50	Drakeson	that's just a chain of 4 macros! (defmacro foo [] `(defmacro bar [] ....))
17:51	p_l	also, the fact it's an infinite loop might not be that bad. Look in the mirror
17:52	kotarak	There are theories, that the universe could create itself with some loop in time. Maybe it made just poof and there was lisp?
17:53	p_l	kotarak: there are theories that the world is a holographic projection of a 2D plane...
17:57	Raynes	There are theories that Rich Hickey is John McCarthy is God and that he wrote the universe in LISP.
17:58	Chousuke	yes, yes, I also have a theory that there is a unicorn on my backyard.
17:59	cp2	yes, and the goa'uld actually did enslave earth with their damn pyramid ships
18:00	Chousuke	Quite a theory, considering I live in a block of flats. :p
18:00	Chousuke	but I can hypothesise a backyard for my theory.
18:01	Raynes	cp2: Stargate SG1!!!
18:01	cp2	yes :)
18:01	cp2	i knew at least one of you
18:01	p_l	btw, the 2d plane one actually has some experimental backing ;-)
18:01	cp2	liked stargate
18:01	Raynes	(:
18:01	cp2	i watched all of sg-1 and atlantis in about 2 months
18:01	cp2	with minor breaks, of course
18:01	kotarak	p_l: the "loop in time" one, also
18:01	cp2	and waiting between downloads
18:02	Raynes	p_l: I also have a theory as to how we can surpass the speed of light.
18:02	Raynes	By coding it in Clojure!
18:02	cp2	all my theories involve using a gameshark
18:03	triddell	Hey, anyone here good at upgrading old code to the updated lazy stuff? Remember the old ants.clj? I think the ants are very lazy nowdays because the code doesn't fully run now. It probably only needs a couple changes but I don't know what they would be.
18:03	Raynes	Mutable state taste like bacon.
18:04	cp2	triddell: mostly the only thing that has to be changed is lazy-cons to cons
18:04	p_l	... that's a bad analogy <--- loves fried bacon
18:04	cp2	i ran ants.clj recently and iirc thats all that needed changing
18:04	Drakeson	cp2: and rest -> next ?
18:04	cp2	er, i think
18:04	cp2	dont remember
18:05	triddell	I don't see lazy-cons
18:05	kotarak	triddell: http://clojure.org/lazy has some hints how to port the code
18:05	Raynes	(doc lazy-cons
18:05	clojurebot	No entiendo
18:05	Raynes	-_-
18:05	Raynes	(doc lazy-cons)
18:05	clojurebot	excusez-moi
18:05	Raynes	O.O
18:05	cp2	what
18:05	cp2	lol
18:05	triddell	I don't see lazy-cons or rest in the code.
18:05	hiredman	(doc lazy-seq)
18:05	clojurebot	Takes a body of expressions that returns an ISeq or nil, and yields a Seqable object that will invoke the body only the first time seq is called, and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent seq calls. Any closed over locals will be cleared prior to the tail call of body.; arglists ([& body])
18:05	Raynes	wut
18:06	hiredman	lazy-cons doesn't exist anymore
18:06	Raynes	:o
18:06	Raynes	I see.
18:06	Raynes	You guys are tricking me to make me look stupid.
18:06	cp2	no, i said you need to change any lazy-cons call to cons
18:06	cp2	there might be others
18:06	cp2	but i dont remember
18:07	cp2	(for ants.clj)
18:07	kotarak	triddell: compile your clojure with -Dclojure.assert-if-lazy-seq=true, that should give some warnings for nil punning in ants.clj
18:08	kotarak	if there is any, of course
18:08	triddell	kotarak: k, thanks for the link
18:22	replaca_	Back to the Lisp is God theme, this is a classic: http://xkcd.org/224/
18:46	triddell	FYI: the current ants.clj already supports the latest clojure :-)
18:49	kotarak	hehe :)
19:15	danlarkin	tada! http://github.com/danlarkin/madison/tree/master
19:16	kotarak	~and suddenly...
19:16	clojurebot	CLABANGO!
19:17	durka42	that will never get old will it
19:18	danlarkin	now I have a ton of work to do :-o
19:19	kotarak	danlarkin: wait till the bug reports come in.... :]
19:19	kotarak	Releasing half past midnight is not a good idea....
19:20	danlarkin	haha oh I don't know if there'll be bug reports... it's barely usable right now
19:20	kotarak	danlarkin: haha there will, there will. users generally expect every release to be perfect!
19:21	danlarkin	ruh roh
19:22	cemerick	does anyone know of a trie implementation in clojure?
19:23	kotarak	aren't vectors tries?
19:24	cemerick	perhaps, but they're implemented in java
19:24	kotarak	Ah. Ok.
19:57	hiredman	,(doc nth)
19:57	clojurebot	"([coll index] [coll index not-found]); Returns the value at the index. get returns nil if index out of bounds, nth throws an exception unless not-found is supplied. nth also works for strings, Java arrays, regex Matchers and Lists, and, in O(n) time, for sequences."
20:26	dreish	Ooh, neat: apply can apply macros.
20:28	Chousuke	huh?
20:28	dreish	,(apply #'when 1 2 ())
20:28	clojurebot	(if 1 (do 2))
20:28	Chousuke	:\|
20:28	kotarak	That's because the macro property is in the metadata of the Var.
20:28	dreish	Good call.
20:29	kotarak	when directly wouldn't work.
20:29	Chousuke	that's rather cool
20:29	Chousuke	now I wonder if it's actually usefuls
20:29	Chousuke	-s
20:29	dreish	Well, I was wondering how it might be possible to do an interpreted eval, since e.g., apply is 1000x faster than eval.
20:30	Chousuke	,(apply #'when [1 2 3])
20:30	clojurebot	(if 1 (do 2 3))
20:30	kotarak	clojurebot: eval
20:30	clojurebot	eval is sometimes useful - but only sometimes
20:30	dreish	Yes, I know.
20:30	kotarak	hmmm....
20:30	kotarak	clojurebot: eval
20:30	clojurebot	eval is DENIED
20:30	kotarak	aha
20:30	kotarak	clojurebot: eval
20:30	clojurebot	eval is evil
20:31	dreish	Usually I'm the one delivering this lecture.
20:31	dreish	No, wait, I'm always telling people not to use macros.
20:31	kotarak	That's also a good idea.
20:31	kotarak	Because most of the time they really want a function.
20:32	dreish	Yes.
20:33	dreish	I think it's a symptom of a desire to grok Lisp by shortcut.
20:34	dreish	"I hear macros are great" or "I hear eval is some mysterious wizardry", therefore, "I want to dive in and immediately write everything with macros and eval."
20:34	kotarak	Just a few days ago, someone recognised the limits of macros just be himself. Without help. That was a glorious moment. :)
20:39	Chouser	macros have limits?
20:39	kotarak	Yes. Indeed they have.
20:39	dreish	They're limited in the means of combinaaation.
20:40	kotarak	(def x [1 2 3]) (some-macro x) ; the macro sees x, not [1 2 3].
20:40	Chouser	@(resolve x)
20:41	Chouser	I'm just rousing rabble. don't mind me.
20:41	kotarak	Chouser: please.... (defn foo [x] (some-macro x)) (foo [1 2 3])
20:42	kotarak	This defn is a common "use case", people have with macros....
20:42	dreish	Other drawbacks to appeal to people who think they're some sort of all-purpose optimizing inliner: they increase the size of the code and force the JVM to do more work to optimize and inline.
20:42	kotarak	And their "solution" is almost always eval.... -.-
20:42	Chouser	why not use eval?
20:42	Chouser	oh.
20:42	dreish	Because eval is about 1000x slower than apply. :)
20:42	Chouser	sorry, I don't know why I'm saying any of these things
20:42	Chouser	as if we don't all have better things to do
20:43	kotarak	Chouser: maybe because I say the things, I said above to often? ;)
20:43	Chouser	perhaps I'm in rhickey withdrawal
20:44	dreish	You should be happy he's out spreading the gospel.
20:44	dreish	http://twitter.com/_benb/statuses/1324431942
20:46	kotarak	"factoring primes" ... I see the next speed discussion coming up...
20:46	dreish	True fact: the most efficient algorithm to factor a prime x is [1 x].
20:51	Chouser	maybe an array...
20:51	Chouser	see? what's wrong with me. argumentative for no good reason.
20:52	dreish	Oh, that wasn't Clojure, that was a hypothetical language specifically written and optimized for returning two numbers.
20:53	gnuvince_	"Another macro bytes the dust"
20:59	powr-toc	Looking at core.clj, what are the (def unquote) and (def unquote-splicing) for?
21:00	powr-toc	are they defined later, elsewhere/
21:00	powr-toc	?
21:00	dreish	,'~foo
21:00	clojurebot	(clojure.core/unquote foo)
21:00	hiredman	,(macroexpand ~foo)
21:00	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this context
21:00	dreish	It's got to have something to resolve to.
21:00	hiredman	jerk
21:00	hiredman	,(macroexpand '~foo)
21:00	clojurebot	(clojure.core/unquote foo)
21:01	hiredman	,(macroexpand '~@foo)
21:01	clojurebot	(clojure.core/unquote-splicing foo)
21:01	shoover	Chouser: the good old days were when rhickey used to pop in from the airport when out giving talks. now he just hangs out in the pubs with the Londoners
21:01	powr-toc	dreish: cheers
21:01	dreish	Pop in from the airport? As in, not spend a long time away?
21:01	shoover	pop into #clojure
21:02	dreish	Ah right.
21:02	dreish	Well, when you put it that way, it does fill me with a jealous rage.
21:06	slashus2	I have noticed. If you use the Math/pow function for smaller powers you get a lot more overhead than if you just used (* 3 3 3) . I was experimenting with creating a macro like (defmacro ** [number power] `(* ~@(repeat power number))) , which creates a multiplication like the latter. It seems to be more efficient for smaller powers than the Math/pow function call.
21:08	slashus2	up to a certain point.