#clojure – 2009-02-09

2009-02-09

05:30	bakkdoor	i have trouble with defining a macro that expands into a defmacro form... anyone here who might be able to help me?
05:31	hoeck	bakkdoor: sure
05:31	bakkdoor	cool
05:31	bakkdoor	wait i'll paste my code
05:31	hoeck	k
05:31	AWizzArd	Do you want to write your own macro engine?
05:36	bakkdoor	http://paste.lisp.org/display/75111
05:37	bakkdoor	thats my code
05:42	bakkdoor	but i basically get this error message: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: actionPerformed in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)
05:42	hoeck	bakkdoor: and the problem is?
05:42	bakkdoor	and i dont know how to solve it.
05:44	bakkdoor	heres what it expands into: http://paste.lisp.org/display/75111#1
05:46	bakkdoor	am i missing a quote or unquote or something? i guess it has to do with the double backquoting within the defevent macro, but i cant find the error. and it only tells me it cant resolve actionPerformed. but i dont even want it to be resolved i guess, it should just take it as a symbol for the call to the with-event-listener macro
05:46	bakkdoor	which itself calls the proxy macro predefined in clojure
05:49	bakkdoor	heres the expansion via macroexpand-1: http://paste.lisp.org/display/75111#2
05:54	hoeck	bakkdoor: hmm, looks like you need to quote actionPerfomed like this: ~'~actionPerformed
05:54	bakkdoor	hm ok
05:55	hoeck	using this leads me to a correctly expanded [java.awt.event.ActionListener actionPerformed] arg-vector to with-event-listener
05:56	Chousuke	~'~? :/
05:56	clojurebot	I don't understand.
05:56	Chousuke	,`~'~actionPerformer
05:56	clojurebot	(clojure.core/unquote actionPerformer)
05:56	Chousuke	,`~'actionPerformer
05:56	clojurebot	actionPerformer
05:56	hoeck	,`(`~'~actionPerfomed)
05:56	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: actionPerfomed in this context
05:57	Chousuke	,`'~actionPerformer
05:57	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: actionPerformer in this context
05:57	Chousuke	okay, so it's ~'
05:58	hoeck	,(let [sym 'actionPerformed] `(~'~sym))
05:58	clojurebot	((clojure.core/unquote sym))
05:58	hoeck	,(let [sym 'actionPerformed] `(`~'~sym))
05:58	clojurebot	((quote actionPerformed))
05:58	hoeck	mhh
05:59	Chousuke	,(let [sym 'ap] `'~sym)
05:59	clojurebot	(quote ap)
05:59	Chousuke	,(let [sym 'ap] `~sym)
05:59	clojurebot	ap
05:59	Chousuke	,(let [sym 'ap] `~'sym)
05:59	clojurebot	sym
06:00	bakkdoor	hoeck: defevent now doesnt complain anymore. it also generates the macro. but i call the generated macro, i get an error: http://paste.lisp.org/display/75111#3
06:03	Chousuke	wait, you're using nested defmacros? :/
06:04	hoeck	Chousuke: yes
06:05	Chousuke	hmmh
06:06	Chousuke	that might be problematic, as ~ is kind of special inside `
06:07	hoeck	bakkdoor: untquote-quote-unqote the event-listener-sym in the defevent macro
06:09	bakkdoor	hm
06:11	hoeck	while expanding, ~~ evaluates event-listener-sym to a class object, but proxy somehow wants a symbol and not a class
06:11	hoeck	i guess
06:13	bakkdoor	hm ok
06:18	Chousuke	I think ~@~body-sym is not going to work
06:31	hoeck	Chousuke: strangely enough, ~@~ expands correctly :)
06:32	hoeck	bakkdoor: is it working now?
06:51	djpowell	am I generally better off using (into {} (map ...)), rather than (reduce (assoc ...) {} ...)
07:03	Chousuke	djpowell: I think (into {} ...) is more idiomatic
07:04	Chousuke	(doc into=
07:04	clojurebot	Returns a new coll consisting of to-coll with all of the items of from-coll conjoined.; arglists ([to from])
07:04	Chousuke	oops
07:04	Chousuke	heh
07:05	Chousuke	I created a github repo for small clojure utils. for now, I only have two functions in it though :P
07:24	djpowell	hmm, I wonder if an implementation of "selection sort" would be useful for seqs. handy if you are going to call first on the sorted seq, or just get the first few elements from it, cause it wouldn't need to sort the rest of the list.
07:26	Chousuke	hmm
07:31	djpowell	i found myself calling (first (sort xs)), and thought that that was probably a bit wasteful
07:32	Chousuke	isn't there a function in contrib for finding the smallest/greatest item.
07:34	djpowell	maybe, i've been a bit slow at looking at contrib. likewise, i'm still using inferior-lisp rather than slime
07:34	zakwilson	(doc max)
07:34	clojurebot	Returns the greatest of the nums.; arglists ([x] [x y] [x y & more])
07:34	djpowell	zakwilson: doesn't work with strings
07:34	zakwilson	So I see from the docstring.
07:35	zakwilson	So what you want is a generic max, or one that can take a comparison function as an argumnet.
07:35	djpowell	yeah, i think there is one in contrib
07:35	djpowell	i kind of got a massive boost from using clojure and inferior-lisp, and doing stuff with them is taking priority over the lesser boost i'd get from looking at contrib and slime. i'm lazy
09:33	hellask	ah so nice, sometimes in clojure i feel like i wish there was something like X and Im not evenr sure I know exactly what X is but then I find X and it is awes ome :). last one was ->
09:34	hellask	anyonme here a good webdeisnger?
09:36	jdz	define good. but thickey might be, anyway.
09:41	hellask	how do I set public fields?
09:41	hellask	http://www.textpresso.org/clustering-software/javadoc/libsvm/SVM_Problem.html
09:41	Chouser	'set!'
09:42	Chouser	(set! (.l problem) 5) ; or some such
09:49	cemerick	I wonder if anyone else has been caught by this ClassFormatError?: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_frm/thread/4049115d4d1205c8?hl=en#
09:50	Chouser	Nobody compiles Clojure like you do, cemerick. ;-)
09:50	cemerick	Chouser: hrm, rhickey said something similar last week. :-)
09:52	cemerick	I'm about 3/4 of the way towards having a solid clojure build subant file. That might hit github eventually.
09:52	rhickey	cemerick: that doesn't seem to be related to partial building per se, but a large codelength - do you have large data literals in your code files?
09:52	cemerick	I guess my problem is that I generally assume that I'm trailing everyone else, at least when it comes to pure geekery.
09:52	Chouser	next time you hit the error, you might tar up your classes before clearing them out.
09:52	Chouser	that tarfile would give people a place to start hunting for the bug
09:54	cemerick	Chouser: true, but we'd have to identify which classfiles are involved so that nothing sensitive was released
09:54	cemerick	rhickey: that's interesting -- yes, we have one file in a test lib that has a literal list of ~2500 objects
09:55	rhickey	cemerick: there are classfile size limits that come into play - for large data I recommend using read instead of compiling a literal
09:57	cemerick	rhickey: ah ha. That's certainly doable, though unfortunate. Why doesn't it fail all the time, though?
09:57	rhickey	cemerick: I can't tell from that info
09:58	hellask	how do i get an attribute?
09:59	cemerick	rhickey: Would it help if I posted the classfile?
10:00	rhickey	cemerick: I don't think so - that classfile is over the limit, the question is why only on a partial build
10:03	Chouser	hellask: (.instanceMember instance) documented http://clojure.org/java_interop
10:04	cemerick	rhickey: and only sporadically, for that matter. Does c.l.Compile (or the stuff it hooks into) always load classfiles for each lib it's provided, or does it do so only when the corresponding source files have changed?
10:06	rhickey	cemerick: compile should be a no op if nothing has changed, but possibly something is being loaded due to reference
10:10	cemerick	anyone going to ILC 2009? http://ilc09.org
10:11	rhickey	cemerick: I hope so!
10:12	Chouser	cemerick: trying to decide it it's worth it for me. Should I go?
10:12	cemerick	rhickey: yeah, I saw you on the schedule for Sunday. Are you there only Sunday? It looks like a scheme and CL-fest otherwise.
10:12	AWizzArd	For me it's in the wrong Cambridge ;)
10:12	Chouser	I don't know how much good a week of CL is going to do.
10:13	cemerick	Chouser: I can't vouch for it, having never gone. Myself and wwmorgan are probably going to go if rhickey and the enclojure guys are there.
10:13	rhickey	cemerick: I'm also on the Future of Lisp panel
10:13	AWizzArd	Has anyone of you been on the ELC 2006?
10:13	AWizzArd	rhickey: I would say you are that panel :)
10:14	rhickey	AWizzArd: Lisp has many futures
10:14	cemerick	rhickey: nice :-P
10:15	cemerick	AWizzArd: Agreed. Lots of love for clojure here, but as entertaining it is to watch the scheme and CL worlds from afar, I don't see much point (for me/us) in getting hip-deep in them.
10:15	rhickey	There are many interesting talks throughout the week - even if they are CL/Scheme, the domains they are tackling are those Clojure could too
10:16	danlarkin	Hmmm are they not doing per diem this year?
10:16	rhickey	danlarkin: no, but $210 early reg is not bad
10:16	Chouser	danlarkin: the week price seems to me to be about the same as the per diem last time.
10:17	Chouser	If I go, it's unlikely I'll stay the whole week. Maybe through Tuesday or something.
10:18	cemerick	rhickey: See, we rely on you to bring all that forward-thinking back to the sane, broader world ;-)
10:19	rhickey	Next time you guys should submit some Clojure papers!
10:23	AWizzArd	cemerick: I am doing CL now since 6 years and actually work as a CL dev :) But currently I am transforming this in a full time Clojure job g
10:24	Chouser	rhickey: I don't even know how that works. Do they just waive the fees if they accept your paper, or do the fees start flowing the other direction?
10:25	cemerick	rhickey: wwmorgan might have something for a lisp-focussed group, but I'd end up presenting something like "Integrating Clojure with JMS for Sane Scalability" or somesuch. I'd have to wear a poncho.
10:25	cemerick	AWizzArd: good on you. BTW, did you ever put Jambi through its paces?
10:25	rhickey	Chouser: there's no money flowing my way, that's for sure :(
10:26	rhickey	Nor, at those rates, for anyone else either - just an educational/intellectual endeavor
10:27	cemerick	I was pretty shocked by the low rate, actually. $200 is nothing compared to most conferences.
10:28	rhickey	cemerick: yeah, it's great, and if you've never heard Sussman or Moon et al - these guys are tops
10:28	AWizzArd	cemerick: Never touched Jambi. I am a swing person so far, and not the happiest. For example just today I learned that one can not simply change the background color of a cell in a JTable. I hoped for something like (.setBackgroundColor my-table cell-x cell-y [r g b]). But instead one needs to provide a rendering method.
10:29	Chouser	cemerick: that's a good point. Perhaps I should seize the chance. It's just a pretty long drive and big slice of time for a lark.
10:29	AWizzArd	rhickey: if possible please let someone record you. Would be nice to have new Clojure vids online.
10:29	cemerick	Chouser: hey, I'll buy ya a beer. Should make it all worthwhile. :-P
10:31	rsynnott	what would the most sensible way to go about making clojure available from a larger java application (jetty or something) be?
10:31	cemerick	AWizzArd: yeah, the table stuff is not pretty. If you can believe it, it's a metric ton better than the document model, though.
10:32	rsynnott	(that is, allow the java app to call clojure functions/methods)
10:34	AWizzArd	cemerick: you mean like writing texts into an editor pane and have there specific words in red color and italic and such?
10:35	cemerick	AWizzArd: yeah, the whole javax.swing.text.* mess. Pain, pain, pain, and nothing but.
10:36	cemerick	of course, Swing the worst UI toolkit -- except for all of the others. :-P
10:41	AWizzArd	maybe doing these things is really much easier with qt
10:41	AWizzArd	but qt is not free for commercial development as I see it
10:42	cemerick	AWizzArd: even with the LGPL that's coming down the pike?
10:42	forest	AWizzArd it will be soon)
10:46	jbondeson	4.5 RC1 was released last week, so it currently is.
10:49	AWizzArd	oh, hmm
10:50	AWizzArd	let me know when this happened.. could be interesting
10:50	WizardofWestmarc	couple weeks ago?
10:50	WizardofWestmarc	it's pretty recent
10:52	cemerick	AWizzArd: I was actually just reading about this over the weekend. Link with attendant peanut gallery: http://www.reddit.com/goto?id=7plau
10:54	jbondeson	they announced LGPL on Jan 14th, and the first RC of 4.5 dropped Feb 5th
10:54	jbondeson	http://www.qtsoftware.com/about/news/qt-4.5-release-candidate-available
10:56	AWizzArd	thx
10:56	cemerick	I don't think Jambi will ever work for us, just because of the difficulties (known and unknown) of having to track distributions for multiple platforms. That, and it's strictly impossible to deploy in the browser.
10:56	AWizzArd	so, as I understand this lgpl stuff: if I use qt as a lib (jambi) I won't need to open my sources.
10:57	AWizzArd	cemerick: didn't Chouser and Lau work with Jambi some months ago?
10:57	cemerick	AWizzArd: right -- only modifications to the lib need to be LGPL'ed as well.
10:58	cemerick	AWizzArd: I don't know -- I was absent from the goings on here for a couple of months.
10:59	AWizzArd	Chouser: you got the qt gui-builder working some time ago, yes?
11:01	Chouser	AWizzArd: yes
11:01	hellask	how the hell do I come up with a good name for a visual search engine?
11:02	Chouser	I don't think I've yet seen a correct Clojure repl interacting with a correct Qt/Jambi thread, though I've seen some broken attempts.
11:02	Chouser	AWizzArd: it shouldn't be hard, and maybe somebody's done it, but I've not seen it yet.
11:03	hellask	what is better about jambi? webkit interop?
11:03	hellask	because i love swing+miglayout
11:08	rsynnott	hellask: QT tends to look more native on its supported platforms
11:09	clojurebot	svn rev 1253; added #_ ignore form reader macro added IDeref above IRef, made delays and futures implement IDeref renamed/moved IRef.get() -> IDeref.deref() deref/@ maps to IDeref/deref added future-calls and future implement pmap on future implement pcalls on pmap
11:10	rhickey	new goodies: futures
11:12	jwinter	What are futures?
11:13	hellask	concurrency constructs i think
11:13	rhickey	jwinter: references to a computation on another thread, deref/@ blocks until done
11:14	jwinter	oh
11:14	hiredman	like a FutureTask?
11:15	rhickey	hiredman: a thin wrapp on j.u.concurrent.Futures, supports @
11:15	hiredman	Neat
11:15	danlarkin	ohhhh yeah very neat
11:15	rhickey	also future macro, packages up exprs in closure and fires off in thread pool
11:16	rhickey	also pmap now written with futures, so can nest
11:16	Chouser	nice
11:17	jwinter	Futures: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/util/concurrent/Future.html . This is like 20 pages ahead of where I am in Java Concurrency in Practice.
11:18	AWizzArd	hellask: the mean thing about swing is that in some areas it sucks. For example: when you have a JTable and want to change the background color of a specific cell. How can you do it?
11:18	rhickey	Chouser: yeah, pmap much tidier: http://code.google.com/p/clojure/source/browse/trunk/src/clj/clojure/core.clj?spec=svn1253&r=1253#3924
11:19	AWizzArd	hellask: I hoped for something like (.setBackgroundColor my-table cell-x cell-y [r g b]).
11:19	Chouser	but now I'm going to have to figure out when I want futures.
11:19	Chouser	AWizzArd: I don't think it's terribly hard. I may even have some example code...
11:19	rhickey	Chouser: anytime you are using agents only for threads, i.e. not identity
11:19	AWizzArd	Chouser: it is much harder than what I dreamed of :)
11:20	hellask	AWizzArd: ok wasnt aware of that, I was mainly speaking from an amateur point of view on that matter, I have never made professional GUIs but for making an mp3player or something it was betetr than anythign else ive tried like tkinter and the c++ suicide winapi
11:20	AWizzArd	rhickey: is there an idiom for (swap! my-atom (fn [_ x] x) new-value)?
11:21	rhickey	(doc reset!)
11:21	clojurebot	Sets the value of atom to newval without regard for the current value. Returns newval.; arglists ([atom newval])
11:21	AWizzArd	hellask: and about 30 minutes or so ago cemerick also mentioned that it is not trivial to have a text pane in which you want to change the color and font size of specific words/letters. All very evil.
11:21	AWizzArd	rhickey: great
11:21	Chouser	AWizzArd: http://gist.github.com/60851
11:21	rsynnott	AWizzArd: do you still have to subclass the JTable or something?
11:22	drewr	jwinter: my JCIP reading has been slow
11:23	cemerick	AWizzArd: just to be clear, it's easy to set an arbitrary style over a range of text as a single operation -- however, in order to support interleaving document types, embedded images and other media, and support all of the usual interactions you'd like to have in such a document, you're in for a load of pain
11:24	Chouser	AWizzArd: line 62 of that gist sets the cell renderer so that each row's foreground color depends on a particular value for that row.
11:24	AWizzArd	Chouser: yes thanks. Around line 62 it starts. You have to provide your own renderer!
11:24	AWizzArd	yes
11:24	Chouser	yes
11:24	AWizzArd	;)
11:24	cemerick	using the UI toolkit for stuff like that is the wrong approach anyway, though the mere existence of javax.swing.document leads people to attempt it anyway. A useful web pane component should take care of all of that, as well as integration with your application's custom functionality.
11:24	cemerick	Of course, I didn't know all these things when I wasted 6 months of my life on document model stuff back in 2001/2002. :-/
11:25	ayrnieu	,(let [ag1 (agent nil) ag2 (agent 0)] (send ag1 #(do % (send ag2 inc) (await ag2) (println @ag2)))) ;; can't await in an agent
11:25	clojurebot	#<Agent@ad97f5: nil>
11:25	ayrnieu	,(let [ag1 (agent nil) ag2 (agent 0)] (send ag1 #(do % (doto (future (send ag2 inc)) deref) (println @ag2)))) ;; can do :-)
11:25	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: future in this context
11:25	AWizzArd	I just hoped that the designers of Swing would offer one simple method for doing so typical stuff. They must have known that people typically want to center Windows, change colors of table cells, or do what cemerick just described.
11:26	AWizzArd	One can of course abstract this stupidity away and write ones own Clojure functions, but the fact that his is needed is what seems suboptimal to me.
11:26	ayrnieu	,(doto (agent nil) (send inc) (await) (-> agent-errors first (.printStackTrace))) ;; -- aside: this has a race condition. Sometimes it'll print the stacktrace.
11:26	clojurebot	Agent has errors
11:26	rsynnott	is clojurebot supposed to do that?
11:26	rsynnott	,(+ 5 4)
11:26	clojurebot	9
11:26	rsynnott	heh
11:27	AWizzArd	yes, it should eval most of our code
11:27	Chousuke	it's pretty easy to DoS though :/
11:27	cemerick	AWizzArd: fundamentally, one has to remember that Swing is always doing all of its own drawing -- so, anytime you want to diverge from what you can get right out the box, you're going to have to do your own drawing, too
11:27	AWizzArd	omg
11:28	AWizzArd	I will ask Lau later if this is the same with qt
11:28	cemerick	The other tradeoff is to use SWT or QT, where there's a lot more that's provided in terms of widgets, but it's also a lot more difficult (last I experimented) to do something outside the box.
11:29	cemerick	and you're also dragging along native libs in any other scenario, so it's a tricky balancing act depending on your requirements
11:30	AWizzArd	Personally I still prefer to offer a swing solution.
11:31	jbondeson	swing is great if you want to do web stuff, but if you're using it as a stand alone app it's seriously lacking.
11:31	cemerick	same here, if only because it keeps down the build and deployment complexity, not to mention cuts down significantly on the cognitive overhead of yet another framework/api to learn
11:31	Chouser	The only reason textjure uses swing is to reduce download/install requirements. I started it in Qt.
11:33	AWizzArd	makes sense (to have it in Swing)
11:33	AWizzArd	jbondeson: what do you mean with Swing+Webstuff?
11:33	jbondeson	if you're going a web launch or something
11:33	AWizzArd	Oh, you mean Webstart?
11:35	hellask	when people do very flashy GUIs, what do they use? write their own GUI-lib?
11:36	jbondeson	usually native
11:37	hiredman	flashy GUIs, what do they use? write their own
11:37	hiredman	GUI-lib?
11:37	hiredman	er
11:37	hiredman	sorry
11:42	Chouser	Qt's got a lot of flashiness.
11:44	AWizzArd	Is there an easier way than (into {} java-hash-map) to cast a java.util.HashMap into a clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap? If I have an array of HashMaps and want to do (map to-clojure-hashmap array-of-java-hashmaps)
11:44	clojurebot	svn rev 1254; improved ref printing, patch from Chouser
11:46	Chousuke	AWizzArd: you can't cast them since the java hashmap is not a subclass of persistenthashmap
11:46	Chousuke	or whichever.
11:46	Chousuke	if you want the persistent behaviour, copying is your only option :/
11:46	AWizzArd	oki
11:47	Chousuke	fortunately copying references is relatively cheap :)
11:48	AWizzArd	clojurebot: namespace of partition-by?
11:48	clojurebot	No entiendo
11:48	AWizzArd	clojurebot: partition-by
11:48	clojurebot	Pardon?
11:48	jbondeson	Chouser: Qt does go down to native, and also I believe that you can test to see if your platform supports certain Qt features before use so you can go from flashy Win/OSX to non-flashy Handheld
11:48	Chousuke	,`partition-by
11:48	clojurebot	clojure.core/partition-by
11:48	AWizzArd	tricky
11:49	jbondeson	its been a while since i last used Qt extensively, but that's my recolection.
11:49	Chouser	jbondeson: you're probably right. they work hard to support handhelds and get good rendering speeds on a variety of graphics hardware.
11:49	AWizzArd	Chousuke: hmm, my clojure.jar is 4 days old. Since when is partition-by in the core?
11:50	Chousuke	hmm
11:50	Chousuke	actually, that might not be correct.
11:50	Chousuke	.. yeah, it's not in core
11:50	hiredman	ugh
11:50	Chouser	(doc partition-by)
11:50	jbondeson	The amount of time they've spent on the non-GUI parts of their library in the last couple years is pretty crazy too.
11:51	AWizzArd	,(doc partition-by)
11:51	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: partition-by in this context
11:51	AWizzArd	yup
11:51	hellask	should i name my inagesearch site to imagejure?
11:51	hellask	tihi
11:51	hiredman	my fix to read so it runs in the sandbox namespace may have been lost it git somewhere
11:51	AWizzArd	,#'partition-by
11:51	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: partition-by in this context
11:51	Chousuke	hiredman: lost?
11:51	Chousuke	I can see it
11:51	AWizzArd	hellask: imajine
11:51	jbondeson	haha
11:51	hellask	lol
11:51	jbondeson	i thought we said no j's last week.
11:51	Chouser	,(doc partition-by)
11:51	clojurebot	"([f coll]); Applies f to each value in coll, splitting it each time f returns a new value. Returns a lazy seq of lazy seqs."
11:52	Chousuke	hiredman: it's commit 0ede20b5563b54f11dcfe20fe6d3c2969c701c72 if that helps :p
11:52	Chousuke	or do you mean you've accidentally undone it? :)
11:52	jbondeson	ah yes, commit 0ede20b5563b54f11dcfe20fe6d3c2969c701c72, i remember it well.
11:52	AWizzArd	Chousuke: why does your doc do something different than mine? Did hiredman do some magic inbetween?
11:52	hiredman	,`partition-by
11:52	clojurebot	clojure.contrib.seq-utils/partition-by
11:52	AWizzArd	thx
11:53	Chousuke	this is why lisp is fun
11:53	hiredman	clojurebot: weirdo
11:53	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithsc�al?
11:53	Chouser	jbondeson: we use Qt extensively at my job, and almost never use any of the GUI classes.
11:53	Chousuke	stuff changes while you're using the system and the user is left confused!
11:53	Chouser	hiredman: I ran 'use' in a private chat with clojurebot
11:53	hiredman	Chouser: yeah
11:54	Chouser	yeah
11:55	AWizzArd	so, partition-by can not be used if I have a vector of 200 hashmaps where each hashmap contains a k/v pair :type :some-type and where 6 different :some-types exist, and I just want 6 result lists, each containing data from the respective hashmaps, right?
11:55	AWizzArd	Uhm, does that make sense?
11:56	AWizzArd	partition-by creates a new result list as soon f returns a new val.. but it can't go back to previous vals.
11:57	Chouser	you want 'group-by'?
11:58	AWizzArd	,(doc group-by)
11:58	clojurebot	"([f coll]); Returns a sorted map of the elements of coll keyed by the result of f on each element. The value at each key will be a vector of the corresponding elements, in the order they appeared in coll."
11:59	clojurebot	svn rev 1255; fixed `()
12:00	AWizzArd	Chouser: good idea, thx
12:04	rsynnott	the machine (clojurebot) speaks irish?!
12:06	cemerick	rhickey: regarding the code size limitation from before -- I think it'd be very helpful if the compiler (or reader?) could emit an exception as soon as a too-large literal is encountered
12:06	AWizzArd	rsynnott: yes, and german and french too
12:06	rhickey	cemerick: it's the sum of literals, + code, not any one, that matters
12:07	cemerick	rhickey: OK -- so then the compiler would be able to make a determination, perhaps after writing the classfile at least, perhaps?
12:08	cemerick	it just seems that that kind of late failure (which will only hit when the classfile is loaded) should be eliminated if at all possible
12:09	cemerick	:-/
12:14	clojurebot	svn rev 1256; fixed Ratio to floating point conversion, patch from jbondeson
12:19	clojurebot	svn rev 1257; fixed Ratio->bigdec, patch from jbondeson
12:21	hiredman	a maelstorm of activity
12:21	jbondeson	rich is on a roll
12:22	hiredman	clojurebot: rhickey?
12:22	clojurebot	he works hard so you don't have to
12:23	jbondeson	now i have to find a couple more math bugs to keep him on his toes.
12:26	jbondeson	so now that printing a reference actually does the deref, and then the addition of the future feature, I take it that means that if you're not careful at the repl you'll get a blocked print
12:27	hiredman	oooh
12:28	ayrnieu	or uncareful with debugging prints.
12:29	clojurebot	svn rev 1258; clojure.main should not exit if there was an exception in an --init file and the user requested a repl, patch from arohner
12:48	Chouser	good point. future is the first thing where a deref can block.
12:50	jbondeson	i don't know if it's truly a problem, but it does have a couple interesting ramifications.
12:51	Chouser	by my count, 17 people (beside Rich) have gotten patches into Clojure. That's a really good sign.
12:52	rhickey	Chouser: yes, it's great - thanks all!
12:53	rhickey	It's going to be needed in order to keep the fixes/complaints ratio high
12:53	Chouser	Up from zero one year ago.
12:54	rhickey	sadly the days are gone when I could keep fixes/complaints at 1 by myself
12:55	rsynnott	did the license ever change in the end?
12:55	technomancy	any suggestions? =)
12:56	Chousuke	what's the status of pretty-printing?
12:56	ayrnieu	anyway, future-call is so simple, a concerned person can just roll another
12:57	Chouser	technomancy: there's a whole list of issues -- take your pick.
12:58	Chouser	http://code.google.com/p/clojure/issues/list
13:00	Chouser	13 might be a good place to start. or 17 might be fun.
13:01	technomancy	I don't know much about how compilation works... so for 13 the point is you shouldn't be able to create symbols/keywords that contain unprintable characters? or what?
13:01	technomancy	the description is a little terse
13:01	Chousuke	I poked at 13 some but gave up. I think it should be determined clearly first what actually constitutes a valid symbol
13:02	Chouser	technomancy: unreadable
13:02	technomancy	sounds like a good pre-requisite. =)
13:02	technomancy	Chouser: oh sure; that makes sense
13:02	Chouser	,(symbol "spaces in symbol?")
13:02	clojurebot	spaces in symbol?
13:02	Chouser	running that back through the reader will not give you what you put in
13:02	hiredman	hmmm
13:02	Chousuke	/ is one interesting corner case too
13:02	Chouser	thus shouldn't be allowed in the first place.
13:02	Chousuke	,/
13:02	clojurebot	#<core$_SLASH___3201 clojure.core$_SLASH___3201@12088db>
13:02	Chousuke	,/foo
13:02	clojurebot	Eval-in-box threw an exception:Invalid token: /foo
13:03	Chousuke	I wonder if simething simple as trying to read what (symbol) outputs would be enough :/
13:05	ayrnieu	CL: '\|symbol with spaces\| (read-from-string "\|symbol with spaces\|") => \|symbol with spaces\|
13:05	jbondeson	doesn't reading a symbol potentially have effects?
13:05	Chouser	Chousuke: that would be correct, but I'm not sure if that would be efficient enough.
13:05	Chouser	jbondeson: no
13:06	jbondeson	no potential to de-lazify (so calling MW for that word) anything?
13:06	ayrnieu	clojure.org already has a definition of what's valid in a symbol.
13:06	ayrnieu	jbondeson - do you want dorun , doall ?
13:06	Chouser	not at read time. CL might do interning or something, but Clojure does not (at read time).
13:07	jbondeson	cool, just checking.
13:07	jbondeson	haha
13:07	jbondeson	just make sure to do that in a c.l.lisp conversation
13:07	Chouser	I had to correct my statement above. No need to offend anyone.
13:08	WizardofWestmarc	only if Kenny's sure to read it <_<
13:08	ayrnieu	if you wanted to stick to present tense, you should've said "CL may do"
13:08	Chouser	"CL might do" is much more polite than "CL might have done"
13:10	danlarkin	ayrnieu: "CL may do" is future tense!
13:11	ayrnieu	jbondeson - what does "calling MW for that word" mean?
13:11	jbondeson	can't we all just agree that engineers suck as linguists?
13:11	jbondeson	ayrnieu: as in call merrian-webster, sorry
13:11	ayrnieu	no, we can't.
13:12	ayrnieu	ah.
13:12	jbondeson	yes, but engineer-linquists are invariably bad engineers ;)
13:19	clojurebot	svn rev 1259; zip/remove does not return the correct loc, patch from cgrand fixed refer-clojure doc
13:24	jbondeson	I hereby dub today: "Clojure Defect Closeout Day", or alternatively "Rick Diffs His Heart Out Day"
13:25	gnuvince	?
13:26	jbondeson	half dozen bugs closed out and it's not even 2 on the east coast!
13:28	jbondeson	hahah just saw "Rick" and not "Rich" sorry
13:29	clojurebot	svn rev 1260; add a warn-on-reflection option to clojure.lang.Compile, patch from cemerick
13:31	Chouser	the last such session was Jan 23 and 24th -- 7 contributed patches in 2 days.
13:35	Chousuke	It seems rich just goes through the issue list at random intervals and applies patches.
13:36	ayrnieu	huh, clj just blocked forever on a simple (defn broadcast (msg WRONG THIS SHOULD BE A VECTOR) ...)
13:38	Chouser	ayrnieu: ?
13:38	ayrnieu	I just played commenting games to see that it was holding up on that line.
13:38	Chouser	msg?
13:38	Chousuke	ayrnieu: you sure you didn't just forget a closing paren?
13:38	Chouser	did you forget a vector of formal args?
13:38	ayrnieu	Chouser - instead of throwing java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: Symbol
13:38	ayrnieu	Chousuke - yes, but even if it had been that, is that reasonable?
13:39	ayrnieu	Chouser - instead of throwing that, it just hung.
13:39	Chousuke	well, the repl doesn't stop reading until it has a complete form.
13:39	jbondeson	might have been in a parse loop.
13:39	Chouser	oh, I see what your example means now
13:40	ayrnieu	Chousuke, this wasn't at the repl.
13:40	Chouser	because your msg function was blocking?
13:41	ayrnieu	there's no 'msg' function, and defn would've complained about the impropriety of not having [msg] before anything could evaluate (msg)
13:43	Chouser	I'm failing to reproduce the blocking behavior here.
13:44	jbondeson	how much code was around it?
13:52	ayrnieu	it's repeatable, but weirdly dependent on enough odd factors that I can't just paste the code
13:53	technomancy	Chouser: are the rules the same for what's allowed in a keyword vs a symbol?
13:53	jbondeson	sounds like the parser freaking out.
13:53	jbondeson	is the parser auto-generated? I've never looked at that part of clojure.
13:54	Chouser	jbondeson: no, it's hand-written Java
13:55	Chouser	technomancy: good question.
13:56	Hun	parser generators are not really useful for parsing lisp (you need less code handcoding than for the parser)
13:56	Hun	doesn't really matter which one
13:58	ayrnieu	here, if you get the latest clojure and the latest clj-actors , you can 'make watcher' and see the hang
13:59	jbondeson	well, clojure is slightly less "regular" than something like CL due to special forms requiring square brackets rather than sexprs
13:59	ayrnieu	http://github.com/ayrnieu/clj-actors/tree/master ; if you comment out the unrelated forms before the (defn broadcast (msg) on line 15 of examples/watcher.clj , it doesn't hang
14:00	ayrnieu	if you don't :use act.actors , it doesn't hang.
14:00	Hun	jbondeson: you have a lot more problems parsing CL due to reader macros, e.g. #()
14:04	jbondeson	Hun: true, user defined reader macros make that part of it harder.
14:04	Hun	the default ones are bad enough.
14:08	ayrnieu	I can defn- to make something private. Can I make something not exported by default, so that (:use mylib) alone won't bring it into the caller's namespace?
14:09	technomancy	ayrnieu: you mean like a regular def?
14:09	technomancy	oh, never mind
14:10	danlarkin	,`defvar-
14:10	clojurebot	sandbox/defvar-
14:10	danlarkin	:(
14:10	technomancy	you mean private-by-default-but-with-workarounds?
14:13	ayrnieu	at present you have a namespace that you can load and then ns/foo things, you can bring some of those things into your namespace, and you can bring all of those things into your namespace. I'd like a "bring useful non-polluting things into my namespace, and then still refer to ns/shortname"
14:14	danlarkin	well there's always :only
14:14	technomancy	but some kind of "only by default" so users wouldn't have to think about it would be nice
14:15	ayrnieu	that's the "bring some of those things into your namespace".
14:15	ayrnieu	(ns foo) (defn x [] (println ns)) (ns user) (foo/x) ;; prints #<Namespace user>
14:15	ayrnieu	so maybe a foo/import can do this.
14:23	Chouser	In error-kit I'm currently marking things private, but if I need to get to them (say from a macro) I use cgrand's idea of @#'error-kit/private-thing
14:25	jbondeson	Chouser: i wonder if that's an officially sanctioned work around, after cgrand said that i also used it for some things that i needed, but i'm worried it'll be changed to respect the privacy of the ns.
14:25	technomancy	what's the right way to do this?
14:25	technomancy	(< (java.util.Date.) (java.util.Date.))
14:26	Chouser	(.before (java.util.Date.) (java.util.Date.))
14:26	Chouser	I would think
14:26	technomancy	thanks... is there a way to make < DTRT?
14:32	danlarkin	ew, marking things as private and then using them with @#'foo/bar is evil!
14:32	technomancy	danlarkin: aka "Ruby-style private". =)
14:32	danlarkin	if you need to use it from a different namespace then it should be public, end of story
14:32	danlarkin	IMO anyway
14:33	Chouser	You might be able make clojure.lang.Numbers fall back to 'compare' when dealing with non-numbers.
14:33	Chouser	done that way, I don't think it'd hurt performance for numbers.
14:33	Chouser	danlarkin: even if the only way it "should" be used is via a macro?
14:34	jbondeson	it's a very common situation to have only "approved" access to a method
14:34	technomancy	Chouser: maybe I'm just stuck on duck typing, but it seems to me that < and > should be a little more capable.
14:34	danlarkin	Chouser: yeah that's when you name it _private-thing
14:34	hiredman	ugh
14:35	ayrnieu	denlarkin - so the end of story is that users of your library have to deal with this extra undocumented element after they :use your library ?
14:35	hiredman	what is this, python?
14:35	hiredman	:P
14:35	danlarkin	:)
14:35	jbondeson	yeah, but then you have all these underscore methods polluting your namespace
14:35	Chouser	technomancy: sure, but there's a whole batch of people who will complain very loudly if you take away even a tiny bit of the primitive number performance.
14:35	kotarak	Isn't "private references from macros" on the todo list?
14:35	danlarkin	private or public! it's binary!
14:36	jbondeson	Chouser: that'd be math heads like me! don't screw with my primitive math performance ;)
14:36	Chouser	kotarak: not that I know of.
14:36	technomancy	jbondeson: but... but... < barfs with dates!
14:37	jbondeson	don't mess with numbers speed >=\|
14:37	ayrnieu	(def farty-primitive-< <) (defmulti glorious-DTRT-< (fn [x & _] (class x)))
14:37	jbondeson	make your own that's slow!
14:38	ayrnieu	or you can just (defmulti < ...) and then clojure.core/<
14:38	jbondeson	it would be nice to have some sort of default speed/capability libraries that you could import.
14:38	Chouser	Numbers.java is 4371 lines
14:38	kotarak	Chouser: I thought it was. But the backpackit site is gone.
14:38	kotarak	Anyway: would be nice to have.
14:39	jbondeson	It could default to DTRT, and then bit heads could get the "really-fast-<"
14:39	drewr	I've gotten so used to ns that I forget how to use require and use outside of it
14:39	drewr	what's wrong with (require 'com.notifymd.wm.core :as 'wm)?
14:40	hiredman	need a vector
14:40	drewr	ah, (require '[com.notifymd.wm.core :as wm])
14:40	drewr	I wasn't quoting it
14:40	kotarak	which you need inside ns, too, btw. ;)
14:41	jbondeson	the different syntaxes in and out of ns is slightly annoying.
14:41	drewr	kotarak: not the quote
14:41	kotarak	drewr: you quoted everything, but forget the vector.
14:41	drewr	kotarak: yes to the vector
14:42	technomancy	jbondeson: that's what I'm thinking; it'd be nice, but I don't think I'm ready to push for that at this point since there would be lots of opposition.
14:43	jbondeson	primitive comparison methods being actual methods would be nice as it would add extensibility
14:43	Chouser	you'd want the plain functions available still, but perhaps they could be pushed off to 'require*' and such
14:45	Chouser	hmph. Methods in Numbers take args of type Number. For some reason I thought they were Object in some places.
14:45	ayrnieu	you can write (defmulti < ...), refer to clojure.core/<, offer it as clojure.contrib.flexi-prims
14:46	Chouser	http://github.com/gnuvince/clojure-greatest-least/blob/5d139382cf0a8b5b74fd222de180faaf4204f749/clojure/contrib/greatest_least.clj
14:47	ayrnieu	one day github will have terse DTRT URLs.
14:48	hiredman	say the word and clojurebot will start tinyurling everything again
14:48	Chouser	it only helps if nobody has to see the long one
14:49	Chouser	for example if i were less lazy and tinyurl'ed it first.
14:49	kotarak	maybe a private msg to clojurebot, which tinyurls and then posts?
14:50	gnuvince	I don't see the point of tinyurlizing an URL that's already posted: just click on it
14:50	hiredman	I was mostly kidding out turning it back on
15:02	lisppaste8	ayrnieu pasted "multiple arities make me happy inside" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75134
15:17	fanda	hello! i have question about namespaces... i am sure, it was discussed before, but why is "ns" better than "namespace"?
15:17	fanda	we have "require", "import", "use"
15:18	Chouser	fanda: you're asking for a longer name for the existing macro?
15:18	fanda	would be "namespace" better to clearly mark the beginning of one such?
15:19	fanda	Chouser: yes, to me it would make sense
15:19	Chouser	'namespace' is currently a function that returns that part of a symbol or keyword
15:19	Chouser	(doc namespace)
15:19	clojurebot	Returns the namespace String of a symbol or keyword, or nil if not present.; arglists ([x])
15:19	Chouser	,(namespace 'foo/bar)
15:19	clojurebot	"foo"
15:19	fanda	oooh, I see
15:20	fanda	hm, what to do, what to do :-)
15:22	fanda	ok, then
15:24	fanda	so we got ns, in-ns, namespace, name
15:26	fanda	is there anybody, who oversees issues for clojure-contrib?
15:26	fanda	http://code.google.com/p/clojure-contrib/issues/list
15:27	fanda	new issues for tests haven't made it in
15:27	fanda	i would like to write more tests, but patches will soon cause merging issues
15:29	fanda	these patches influence only test_clojure, so they are not really breaking anything except tests itself
15:29	Chouser	fanda: the problem is there are several people, with vague responsibilities.
15:32	fanda	is there a chance for me to be resposible for test_clojure?
15:32	fanda	rhickey has my CA, i wrote him an email too
15:32	fanda	i believe he is the only one with the right to include me to developers, right?
15:32	Chouser	fanda: yes
15:33	fanda	i will write more patches, if you want me to
15:34	fanda	so you can see my Clojure style
15:35	kotarak	Slightly offtopic question for gorilla: are there any Windows Vim users around?
15:35	fanda	otherwise, I would be happy to take care of test_clojure
15:35	jbondeson	kotarak: we cull those kinds of people so they don't spread.
15:36	Chouser	I'm barely following the test_clojure code, so I don't feel I'm in a position to evaluate or apply patches there. I would hope Stuart Sierra or Stephen Gilardi would handle your patches for you.
15:37	Chouser	fanda: or if Rich gives you write permissions, then you can do it yourself.
15:39	kotarak	jbondeson: That's a pity. You are missing some bright heads, then.
15:39	jbondeson	vim users, yeck ;)
15:39	forest_	is there someone using gentoo clojure ovrelay, is it sexy ?
15:40	kotarak	Well, vim has now omni completion with docstring and arglist preview for Vars and imported functions.
15:40	kotarak	The problem is: it doesn't work on Windows. :/
15:40	fanda	Chouser: ok, I will contact Stuart Sierra or Stephen Gilardi, that should do it :-)
15:40	danlarkin	forest_: I use it
15:40	danlarkin	forest_: I would not recommend it
15:41	forest_	yes, that is what i was afraid of)
15:41	hiredman	clojurebot: emacs?
15:41	clojurebot	uggada buggada
15:41	hiredman	clojurebot: emacs?
15:41	clojurebot	uggada buggada
15:41	hiredman	hmmm
15:43	forest_	clojurebot: uggada buggada
15:43	clojurebot	excusez-moi
15:46	scottj	What are good reasons for the name reset! not replacing ref-set?
15:47	kotarak	scottj: what are good reasons for the name reset! to replace ref-set?
15:47	cooldude127	scottj: isn't reset misleading?
15:47	cooldude127	ref-set is a tad more clear
15:48	ayrnieu	(commute some-ref #(do %2) new-value)
15:48	jbondeson	ref-set and reset! do different things though.
15:48	jbondeson	reset! only works on atoms.
15:48	cooldude127	wait we already have something called reset?
15:49	jbondeson	yes
15:49	jbondeson	,(doc reset!)
15:49	clojurebot	"([atom newval]); Sets the value of atom to newval without regard for the current value. Returns newval."
15:49	cooldude127	i haven't reeducated myself. i only remember when there were vars, refs, and agents
15:49	cooldude127	,(doc ref-set!)
15:49	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: ref-set! in this context
15:49	jbondeson	no ~
15:49	cooldude127	,(doc ref-set)
15:49	jbondeson	err !
15:49	clojurebot	"([ref val]); Must be called in a transaction. Sets the value of ref. Returns val."
15:50	cooldude127	wtf are atoms?
15:50	Chouser	cooldude127: http://clojure.org/atoms
15:50	ayrnieu	cooldude, now we have vars, refs, atoms, agents, and futures.
15:51	durka42	futures?
15:51	ayrnieu	and I think we don't have enough :-) Concurrency is hard.
15:51	jbondeson	just don't mess with oil futures!
15:51	ayrnieu	,(doc future)
15:51	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: future in this context
15:51	jbondeson	just got added today
15:51	jbondeson	clojurebot isn't updated
15:51	cooldude127	oh god
15:51	scottj	reset! is for atoms, ref-set is for refs. superficially the difference seems to be one needs to be called in a transaction, the other doesn't.
15:52	cooldude127	scottj: sounds right
15:52	jbondeson	atoms and refs are different
15:52	ayrnieu	durka - (let [fut (future expr expr expr)] @fut (comment BLOCKING))
15:52	scottj	jbondeson: yeah, but you're reseting both of them aren't you?
15:52	ayrnieu	refs offer STM. atoms have simple spinlocks.
15:52	jbondeson	atoms are simplified refs
15:53	cooldude127	oh
15:53	technomancy	it seems strange to me that test_clojure is treated like any other contrib library
15:53	jbondeson	you want to have different syntax when they are doing different things.
15:53	jbondeson	that's why the bangs are there.
15:54	ayrnieu	technomancy - it'd be odd if you were doing TDD yourself. But if someone else wants to provide tests?
15:54	jbondeson	though slightly confusingly you have bangs (!) on some other functions as well...
15:55	kotarak	I would expect reset to re-set something to some predefined value....
15:56	hiredman	kotarak: it makes sense if you think of when you initially set the value
15:56	hiredman	you don't use a function like you do with swap!
15:56	kotarak	Then I don't "re"set it.
15:56	forest_	,(. javax.swing.JOptionPane (showMessageDialog nil "Hello World"))
15:56	clojurebot	java.awt.HeadlessException: No X11 DISPLAY variable was set, but this program performed an operation which requires it.
15:56	kotarak	(I know: set! is already gone)
15:56	jbondeson	yes you do, you "set again" since it was already set once.
15:57	blippet	dudes what do you thnk of phowser or powser for an image search engine(phowser=photo browser)
15:57	blippet	?
15:57	durka42	so a future is sort of like a one-time agent?
15:58	hiredman	hmmm
15:58	jbondeson	durka42: it also blocks if you attempt to deref before computation is completed
15:58	durka42	so @future has an implied await
15:58	technomancy	ayrnieu: it makes sense that it's part of contrib (if shipping clojure itself without tests in the first place can be said to make sense), but it seems odd that it lives under src/ and gets shipped out with every app that makes use of contrib.
15:58	durka42	whereas if you deref an agent before it finishes you'll get the old value?
15:58	jbondeson	correct.
15:59	jbondeson	agent, atom, and refs are all non-blocking.
15:59	jbondeson	futures are now blocking
15:59	durka42	can futures have watchers
16:00	ayrnieu	add-watcher doesn't mention it, but you can easily spawn off an agent to block on a future and then send a message.
16:00	danlarkin	let's say I want to create a list of the return values of a list of functions. except one of the functions returns a two-vector but I want to insert both of the items into my list separately, not the two-vector itself... anyone have a better way than looping through and checking the return type?
16:00	ayrnieu	add-watcher on futures would be odd, though, because futures only 'change' once.
16:00	jbondeson	ummm... no i don't thing so
16:00	jbondeson	there is a isDone method on the returned object though
16:01	ayrnieu	danlarkin - other than "don't do that", no.
16:01	jbondeson	I believe that's one of the reasons he removed "get" from IRef, and added a IDeref and "deref"
16:01	danlarkin	ayrnieu: but... but.. that's what I want :(
16:01	jbondeson	reevaluate what you want ;)
16:02	Chouser	if they all return vectors then you can just concat or mapcat
16:02	cooldude127	danlarkin: wrap your functions in another function that checks the return type
16:02	cooldude127	then do what Chouser said
16:02	ayrnieu	danlarkin - you could flatten the vector later on.
16:04	jbondeson	i wonder if there was a reason future-call is implemented with a proxy rather than a concrete object in clojure.lang
16:04	danlarkin	Chouser: yes, there we go, I suppose I could have them all return vectors, thanks :)
16:04	Chouser	proxy is more fun to write than .java
16:04	jbondeson	Chouser: hahaha true
16:04	Chouser	atom was just a proxy for a while too
16:05	hiredman	mmmmm
16:05	ayrnieu	and in addition, people complaining about future can look at the proxy and say "oh, I'll just do something like that."
16:12	blippet	how do I set an arrays values?
16:12	jbondeson	kubrick is splitting waaaay too often recently
16:12	blippet	(def a (make-array Integer 3))
16:12	blippet	how do I set a[0]?
16:13	jbondeson	,(doc aset)
16:13	clojurebot	"([array idx val] [array idx idx2 & idxv]); Sets the value at the index/indices. Works on Java arrays of reference types. Returns val."
16:13	durka42	(doc into-array)
16:13	clojurebot	Returns an array with components set to the values in aseq. The array's component type is type if provided, or the type of the first value in aseq if present, or Object. All values in aseq must be compatible with the component type. Class objects for the primitive types can be obtained using, e.g., Integer/TYPE.; arglists ([aseq] [type aseq])
16:13	durka42	might also be useful
16:14	ayrnieu	,(into-array Byte/TYPE (map byte [127 0 0 1]))
16:14	clojurebot	#<byte[] [B@1a99836>
16:14	ayrnieu	,(seq (into-array Byte/TYPE (map byte [127 0 0 1])))
16:14	clojurebot	(127 0 0 1)
16:15	jbondeson	dealing with java arrays involves prefixing with 'a' quite a bit
16:42	cemerick	is ! being held over for potential future syntax? I actually have a fn or two I'd like to name !.
16:42	blippet	does anyone think podular is a good name for a podcastaggregator/recommender site?
16:43	jbondeson	cemerick: it seems to be used on any function that modifies a reference object outside a transaction
16:44	cemerick	jbondeson: I was actually talking only about ! itself -- which I just noticed isn't defined at all anymore. It was the old name for send-off, I think.
16:44	jbondeson	if things like twitter, and reddit are any indication, you don't need a good name. in fact a good name may be a deterrent.
16:44	jbondeson	ah
16:45	danlarkin	just two adjacent consonants
16:45	cooldude127	lol
16:45	technomancy	cooldude127: how's the date lib?
16:45	cooldude127	technomancy: i haven't been working on it lately
16:45	jbondeson	right, the less pronoucable, the better the name.
16:45	WizardofWestmarc	or just get drunk and start scribbling, then when you wake up the next morning see what looks the trendiest ;-)
16:46	jbondeson	gogwitter
16:46	cooldude127	technomancy: caught in school work. data structures are a bitch
16:46	cemerick	rhickey: just to make sure: are you planning on using ! for any future syntax?
16:46	technomancy	cooldude127: bleh; school is useless.
16:47	jbondeson	technomancy: come now, school's good for learning how to learn. which is good cause they're going to have to reteach you when you get a real job ;)
16:48	cooldude127	school is finally getting me back into actually coding tho
16:48	technomancy	well it's decent for learning stuff like literature and what have you I guess
16:49	technomancy	cooldude127: anyway, I'm not working on the project that was going to use the date lib right now, but when I finish up with Mire I'm probably going to bug you about it
16:49	cooldude127	technomancy: sounds fine, let me know what kind of stuff you need most
16:51	blippet	twitter is good in my opinin
16:53	jbondeson	the only way twitter could be worse is if it was twittr. oh wait it was twittr
16:53	technomancy	... says the guy with two adjacent consonants in its name
16:53	blippet	lol
16:53	cooldude127	lol
16:53	WizardofWestmarc	what ever happened to your secret weapon url jbondeson? :P
16:53	mofmog	if i can do something in java, i should be able to do the same in clojure correct? Say there was tutorial to make a java facebook app. If I knew decent amount of clojure, translating the java code to clojure would be relatviely painfree, albeit not idiomatic clojure
16:54	jbondeson	WizardofWestmarc: let it lapse, was never going to get it done. something tells me it will still be available if i get it again...
16:54	cooldude127	mofmog: i think for the most part, although if you're not doing idiomatic clojure, it probably wouldn't be all that fun
16:54	technomancy	fun or worthwhile
16:54	mofmog	cooldude: well true, but i just want to get a proof of concept up
16:55	jbondeson	yeah, you may want to take the time to actually attempt a functional implementation.
16:55	cooldude127	mofmog: yeah, the point i'm making is if you're writing it in the style of java, you might as well use java
16:55	mofmog	true true
16:55	mofmog	but i just want to see if i have all the dependencies needed to accomplish the task
16:55	cooldude127	oh
16:56	blippet	mofmog: it should work since you can compile to class-files
16:56	mofmog	because i plan on getting a server with tomcat installed and i was wondering if that's enough
16:56	mofmog	and the people who run it need to know that i need tomcat since it's university web hostin
16:57	mofmog	and if there is java library X i can use X in clojure like anything else right? becuase the professor i'm doing this for, i told him that anything java can do you can do it in clojure
16:57	cooldude127	mofmog: yes you would probably be fine
16:57	mofmog	yeah, the whole point of using clojure is that scheme is taught here, so when i leave he can easily find a new replacement
16:57	mofmog	well, not the whole point, but a significant point
16:58	mofmog	and then, it could be pointed to as an example of, "hey, using SICP isn't impractical after all!"
17:38	hiredman	clojurebot: help is <reply>http://www.khanacademy.org/
17:38	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
17:39	durka42	clojurebot: help meee!11one
17:39	clojurebot	http://www.khanacademy.org/
17:40	jbondeson	khan acadamey sounds more like where you go to learn how to be a cheesy star trek villan
17:40	danlarkin	obligatory KHAAAAAAAANNNN!
17:40	WizardofWestmarc	I was expecting that when I clicked the link :(
17:53	ayrnieu	OK, I don't like automatic derefs at the REPL.
17:53	jbondeson	hahaha
17:53	Chouser	ayrnieu: really?
17:53	Chouser	ayrnieu: just because of futures, or something else?
17:53	ayrnieu	I haven't hit blocking futures yet, but I have self-referential agents.
17:54	ayrnieu	so I get {:self #<Agent@430d2f: {:self #<Agent@430d2f: {:self #<Agent@430d2f: {:self #<Agent@430d2f: {:self #<Agent@430d2f: whereas before I just got the #<Agent ...>
17:54	Chouser	ah, sure.
17:55	Chouser	well, for now it's easy to override, but I wonder what the best solution would be.
17:55	jbondeson	repl setting?
17:55	jbondeson	or a meta :fortheloveofgoddontderefme
17:55	Chouser	eh
17:56	ayrnieu	CL has variables to control printing at the REPL, circularity detection, etc. But here a depth limit on derefs would be OK.
17:56	Chouser	ayrnieu: (remove-method print-method clojure.lang.IDeref)
17:56	ayrnieu	but that's harder to do than to just have my library say "you don't want to print our agents"
17:56	ayrnieu	right.
17:56	Chouser	there's already a variable for limiting depth
17:58	ayrnieu	,(let [ag (agent {})] (send ag assoc :self ag) (await ag) ag)
17:58	clojurebot	Eval-in-box threw an exception:java.lang.reflect.InvocationTargetException
17:58	Chouser	ayrnieu: (set! print-level 6)
17:58	ayrnieu	aha, OK.
17:59	Chouser	but that doesn't strike me as a particularly nice solution for your situation.
17:59	Chouser	are you sure you need the :self reference?
17:59	ayrnieu	Yes.
17:59	Chouser	every agent action gets agent bound to itself.
17:59	ayrnieu	OK, no :-)
17:59	Chouser	:-)
17:59	jbondeson	circular detection would probably get a bit messy in there.
17:59	forezt	can clojure help us to overcome world crisis ?
18:00	technomancy	the implementation of symbol calls intern with only one arg, but intern doesn't have a single-arg version. how does that work?
18:01	Chouser	technomancy: it's right there, line 43
18:01	hiredman	uh
18:01	hiredman	yeah
18:02	hiredman	wait
18:02	hiredman	are we talking clojure side or java side
18:02	Chouser	http://code.google.com/p/clojure/source/browse/trunk/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Symbol.java#43
18:02	technomancy	clojure-side
18:02	hiredman	(. clojure.lang.Symbol (intern ns name))
18:03	hiredman	line 340
18:03	technomancy	hiredman: what about line 339?
18:03	Chouser	line 339 calls the java method I just posted a link to.
18:04	technomancy	Chouser: so you can have a lisp function with the same name as a java function without any conflict?
18:05	technomancy	I mean, as long as they have different arities?
18:05	hiredman	uh, there are no java functions, and . is a special form
18:06	Chouser	oh!
18:06	Chouser	(. clojure.lang.Symbol (intern ns name)) is the same as (clojure.lang.Symbol/intern ns name)
18:06	walters	technomancy: AIUI each clojure function is in a separate java class
18:06	Chouser	it's the older/internal syntax
18:06	technomancy	Chouser: gotcha. I was taking (intern name) as a clojure function call
18:07	walters	(in the future the anonymous classloader will make that a lot nicer)
18:07	technomancy	that's ... pretty funky
18:07	Chouser	technomancy: yeah, I just realised that. :-)
18:07	technomancy	thanks
18:07	Chouser	as far as I know, rhickey isn't writing any new code with that style.
18:08	technomancy	right; if I update that I'll "modernize" it
18:08	Chouser	good. :-)
18:09	technomancy	Chouser: but enforcing symbol names sounds like it might be better as Java-side change?
18:10	durka42	print-level doesn't seem to prevent this... http://rafb.net/p/jAzQJx40.html
18:10	durka42	(the output was large the JVM and lisppaste choked on it...)
18:11	jbondeson	owch
18:11	durka42	so large*
18:12	Chouser	durka42: ah, indeed. I tested it with a hash-map in-between each level. sigh
18:12	Chouser	that'll teach Rich to take patches from me. :-P
18:12	durka42	i mean, i don't see why one would ever do what i did there
18:12	durka42	but i did break it :p
18:12	jbondeson	so sad Chouser, so sad...
18:13	jbondeson	so your next patch is cirular reference detection, right?
18:15	lisppaste8	ayrnieu pasted "@this-node" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75151
18:16	lisppaste8	ayrnieu annotated #75151 with "the explanation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75151#1
18:19	lisppaste8	Chouser pasted "print deref counts toward print-level patch" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75152
18:21	durka42	oh, print-level was pre-existing?
18:21	durka42	what else does it apply to?
18:21	ayrnieu	(repeat 1)
18:22	ayrnieu	nah, not that.
18:22	durka42	:)
18:23	ayrnieu	,(take 10 (iterate list 1))
18:23	clojurebot	(1 (1) ((1)) (((1))) ((((1)))) (((((1))))) ((((((1)))))) (((((((1))))))) ((((((((1)))))))) (((((((((1))))))))))
18:23	ayrnieu	,(binding [print-level 2] (take 10 (iterate list 1)))
18:23	clojurebot	(1 (1) ((1)) (((1))) ((((1)))) (((((1))))) ((((((1)))))) (((((((1))))))) ((((((((1)))))))) (((((((((1))))))))))
18:23	durka42	,print-level
18:23	clojurebot	nil
18:23	durka42	(doc print-level)
18:23	clojurebot	print-level controls how many levels deep the printer will print nested objects. If it is bound to logical false, there is no limit. Otherwise, it must be bound to an integer indicating the maximum level to print. Each argument to print is at level 0; if an argument is a collection, its items are at level 1; and so on. If an object is a collection and is at a level greater than or equal to the value bound to *print-leve
18:25	ayrnieu	,(set! print-level 5)
18:25	clojurebot	java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/lang/Compiler$AssignExpr
18:25	durka42	,(binding [print-level 3] (print (take 10 (iterate list 1))))
18:25	clojurebot	(1 (1) ((1)) ((#)) ((#)) ((#)) ((#)) ((#)) ((#)) ((#)))
18:26	ayrnieu	,(first (reverse (take 100 (iterate list 1)))))
18:26	clojurebot	(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((1)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
18:27	ayrnieu	anyway, it should probably not print exceptions.
18:28	durka42	printing (first (agent-errors %)) wouldn't be terrible
18:29	ayrnieu	well, I need to see the object before I can decide to do something special with it.
18:30	ayrnieu	,(ref :a)
18:30	clojurebot	#<Ref@f9cbe5: :a>
18:30	ayrnieu	,(let [ag1 (agent nil) ag2 (agent 0)] (send ag1 #(do % (doto (future (send ag2 inc)) deref) (println @ag2))))
18:30	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: future in this context
18:31	durka42	#<Agent@75a30f: nil>
18:31	durka42	user=> 1
18:31	durka42	but sometimes the 1 arrives before the nil
18:32	ayrnieu	oh, sorry, that was an example of awaiting -- agents can't await, but futures can.
18:33	hiredman	weird
18:34	hiredman	ah
18:34	hiredman	I want future-call
18:34	ayrnieu	,(let [ag (agent nil)] (send ag inc) (Thread/sleep 1000) ag) ;; race condition if you try to await here.
18:34	clojurebot	Agent has errors
18:35	ayrnieu	,(let [ag (agent nil)] (send ag inc) (Thread/sleep 1000) [1 2 ag])
18:35	aplmaus	in clojure, do we have a way of specifying java classes and interfaces so that we expose normal seeming functionality to programmers using java?
18:35	clojurebot	Agent has errors
18:36	ayrnieu	aplmaus - gen-class
18:37	hiredman	clojurebot: url?
18:37	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
18:37	hiredman	er
18:37	aplmaus	do the generated classes have a very different feel in java, or can it be made so that people using them don't even need to know they were made in clojure?
18:37	hiredman	lisppaste8: url?
18:37	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
18:40	lisppaste8	hiredman pasted "I don't \get\ it" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75155
18:40	jbondeson	aplmaus: i believe that gen-class will give you perfectly normal java classes (not a java expert), the only caveat would be how heavily you lean on the java lang data structures in your interface
18:41	jbondeson	i mean clojure lang data structures
18:41	jbondeson	not java, sorry
18:41	jbondeson	hiredman .deref not .get
18:42	hiredman	jbondeson: but the proxy has a get method
18:42	hiredman	with no args
18:42	Raynes	There isn't a logical 'and' operator like && in Clojure is there? Man would that be useful.
18:42	jbondeson	worked for me with deref.
18:42	Chousuke	Raynes: ... and is not enough?
18:42	jbondeson	but you are right
18:42	Chousuke	,(and true false)
18:42	clojurebot	false
18:42	Raynes	Oh!
18:43	Raynes	I didn't know that existed.
18:43	hiredman	jbondeson: clojure futures are java Futures which is an interface with a few methods
18:43	Raynes	Chousuke: I haven't read the API yet.
18:43	hiredman	include a get method that takes a timeout
18:43	Chousuke	Raynes: there's or too
18:43	hiredman	which is what I am really interested in
18:43	Raynes	Chousuke: Thanks :D
18:44	jbondeson	hiredman: yeah, i see that now, i was just saying that .deref works as you'd expect
18:44	Chousuke	or has the useful property that it returns the first non-false value
18:44	hiredman	jbondeson: so does @
18:44	Chousuke	,(or nil 1 (iterate inc 0))
18:44	clojurebot	1
18:44	jbondeson	is there a reason you want .get ?
18:44	hiredman	but I want a get that times out
18:45	jbondeson	ahh
18:45	hiredman	right now I am using a proxy on FutureTask
18:45	hiredman	which is a Future
18:45	hiredman	and it is just weird that the proxy acts like that
18:47	jbondeson	hiredman: (.get a 30 java.util.concurrent.TimeUnit/MILLISECONDS)
18:47	jbondeson	using the time, timeunit version seems to work
18:47	hiredman	ugh
18:47	hiredman	but the .get with no args still doesn't
18:47	hiredman	which bugs me
18:48	jbondeson	that is a bit odd
18:48	durka42	is that a general proxy problem?
18:48	hiredman	dunno
18:48	hiredman	I don't know what the problem is
18:49	hiredman	it seems like it should just work
18:49	Chousuke	the proxy doesn't implement a no-argument version of .get?
18:49	Chousuke	no, it does
18:49	Chousuke	(get [] (.get fut))
18:50	hiredman	I am well aware
18:50	hiredman	I have been staring at it
18:50	hiredman	it is all there, but it does not appear to work
18:51	Chousuke	possibly a bug in proxy?
18:52	hiredman	I guess?
18:54	durka42	when i try and define a proxy with methods overloaded by arity, it doesn't work at all
18:55	durka42	calling the no-arg version says wrong # of args
18:55	durka42	calling the one-arg version says no method found
18:55	Chousuke	hahha
18:55	Chousuke	I made it work
18:55	durka42	mm?
18:55	Chousuke	I switched the order of the get definitions in proxy...
18:55	jbondeson	hmmm
18:55	durka42	i was wondering if that was it
18:55	Chousuke	no-arg version first, no-arg version works
18:56	Chousuke	did not try if the two-arg version still works :/
18:56	jbondeson	you can't overload based on arity...
18:56	hiredman	erm
18:57	jbondeson	proxy blows on it
18:57	jbondeson	heh
18:57	jbondeson	now the two-arg version blows with a generic ClassCastException
18:58	jbondeson	wait
18:58	hiredman	anyway
18:58	jbondeson	that might be me
18:58	Chousuke	no wait, got confused: the version which comes last is effective.
18:58	jbondeson	yes
18:58	hiredman	futures just cut 3 lines of code from clojurebot
18:58	jbondeson	last-in wins
18:58	Chousuke	definitely a bug in proxy...
18:59	Chousuke	Someone file an issue, please. it's 02:00 here soon and I must go to sleep.
18:59	hiredman	clojurebot: bat signal is <reply>/summon Chouser
18:59	clojurebot	Ok.
19:00	hiredman	is the issue thing next? don't I need to go to mailing list first or something?
19:00	hiredman	Chousuke: I will assign it to me in my head and do something
19:01	hiredman	(e.g. assign it to someone else in the issue tracker)
19:06	jbondeson	damn, generate-proxy is certainly dense
19:12	jbondeson	figured it out
19:12	jbondeson	The proxy definition is wrong
19:12	jbondeson	you have to write it like any other variable arity function
19:13	durka42	ah!
19:13	durka42	so it is a bug in future-call, not in proxy
19:13	jbondeson	(get ([] ...) ([one two] ...))
19:13	jbondeson	correct
19:13	jbondeson	proxy should probably blow on that
19:13	durka42	clojurebot: bat signal is also <reply>/summon rhickey
19:13	clojurebot	c'est bon!
19:14	jbondeson	think i should drop that on the group?
19:14	durka42	yeah
19:14	durka42	or the issues page
19:14	durka42	it should be a simple fix to future-call
19:15	jbondeson	i'll throw it on the issues page.
19:15	jbondeson	lemme double check the patch first
19:18	durka42	i guess you can't implement a two-arg version of a method if the proxied class doesn't have one?
19:18	jbondeson	i believe so
19:18	jbondeson	generate-proxy loops through all the supers and generates potential methods
19:18	jbondeson	yup that worked
19:19	durka42	you have a CA to submit patches?
19:19	jbondeson	yes
19:24	clojurebot	svn rev 1261; fixed get overload in future-call
19:25	jbondeson	haha
19:25	jbondeson	guess i'll just cancel that.
19:25	durka42	nice timing
19:34	jbondeson	i wonder if proxy shouldn't throw an error on that.
19:37	jbondeson	rhickey: would you accept a patch that would generate some sort of parser error when you try to have multiple methods of the same name?
19:37	danlarkin	jbondeson: it's a dynamic language! :)
19:38	jbondeson	but it's technically not correct.
19:38	jbondeson	currently proxy is just taking the second method defined.
19:38	jbondeson	it's not DTRT
19:39	rhickey	jbondeson: sure
19:42	jbondeson	rhickey: is there a more specific exception i should use, or would a straight Exception with a good description ok?
19:42	rhickey	jbondeson: IllegalArgumentException
19:44	jbondeson	rhickey: will do, thanks
19:44	Chouser	rhickey: should I re-open the old issue for the IDeref print recursion, or open a new one? or you do you care?
19:45	ayrnieu	,(let [ag (agent nil)] (send ag inc) (Thread/sleep 1000) [1 2 ag])
19:45	clojurebot	Agent has errors
19:45	rhickey	Chouser: new, thanks
20:01	icey	is there anyone here who can speak to the relative stability of 'weld', or the lack thereof?
20:02	icey	or, more plainly; am I asking for heartache if I start using it for a live site?
20:07	Chouser	,(let [m1 (java.util.HashMap.) m2 (java.util.HashMap. {:m1 m1})] (.put m1 :m m2) m1)
20:07	clojurebot	Eval-in-box threw an exception:java.lang.reflect.InvocationTargetException
20:07	Chouser	,(let [m1 (java.util.HashMap.) m2 (java.util.HashMap. {:m1 m1})] (.put m1 :m m2) (prn m1))
20:07	clojurebot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
20:08	hiredman	well
20:08	hiredman	I guess that is taken care of
20:09	clojurebot	svn rev 1262; added per-defmulti hierarchies, patch from mb
20:14	clojurebot	svn rev 1263; ~@x outside of syntax-quote yields: (unquote-splicing x), patch from mb
22:28	Azmodan	I was wondering if there was a roadmap for Clojure 1.0, I couldn't find one on the net.
22:28	Chouser	Azmodan: not that I know of.
22:29	Chouser	It seems to me that Rich has specifically resisted any firm list of features for 1.0
22:29	Azmodan	Any idea what reaching 1.0 means?
22:29	Chouser	He has suggested that the first release after Nov 2009 would be called 2.0, so perhaps we can assume 1.0 will be out before then.
22:30	hiredman	huh
22:31	Chouser	I think 1.0 will mean he's ready to fork a stable branch and port bug fixes to both branches. Anything more than that, I can't really say.
22:32	dreish	I would think it would mean no more breaking changes like regex syntax.
22:32	dreish	But that's probably too firm.
22:33	Azmodan	It's not too firm if 2.0 is less than a year after :)
22:33	Chouser	sure, after 1.0 is released I would expect breaking changes would only happen in the dev branch.
22:33	dreish	Though that's only meaningful if there are two actively-maintained branches.
22:33	dreish	As you described above.
22:38	Chouser	the plan, I think, is for the major version number to indicate which year since Clojure's announcement.
22:38	Chouser	so 1.x for stable versions released between Nov 2008 and Nov 2009, 2.x until Nov 2010, etc.
22:39	dreish	Interesting theory.
22:39	Chouser	minor versions would just count up throughout the year
22:39	dreish	He could go the �ber-Lisp route and number the versions like this:
22:40	dreish	,(dorun (map #(println %) (take 5 (iterate #(list '() (list %)) '()))))
22:40	clojurebot	() (() (())) (() ((() (())))) (() ((() ((() (())))))) (() ((() ((() ((() (()))))))))
22:40	dreish	A la http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set-theoretic_definition_of_natural_numbers
22:41	ayrnieu	,(first (reverse (take 20 (iterate list '()))))
22:41	clojurebot	(((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))
22:42	hiredman	why not just call last?
22:42	Chouser	,(nth (iterate list ()) 20)
22:42	clojurebot	((((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))
22:42	Chouser	no need to quote ()
22:43	dreish	That never seems right.