#clojure – 2009-01-30

2009-01-30

00:02	lisppaste8	hiredman annotated #74521 with "generic zipper based s-exp transform" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74521#2
00:38	durka42	http://blog.headius.com/2009/01/my-favorite-hotspot-jvm-flags.html
00:41	cooldude127	hiredman: what's with you and the point-free style lately?
00:44	hiredman	cooldude127: it is fun
00:44	cooldude127	lol
00:44	hiredman	and that transform function is very useful anyway
00:45	cooldude127	hiredman: yeah looks like it
00:58	ayrnieu	very irritating, and not actually an attempt to reinvent OOP: http://gist.github.com/54950
01:32	Cark	ayrnieu what's irritating ?
01:36	ayrnieu	cark - it's very brittle. a straightforward counter-tester immediately failed; while dealing with this I found that I could have an identical 'go' and 'omfgseriously', and only the latter would seem to work; (recur st) seems like it ought to work, but doesn't. And I keep saying "work" and "doesn't work" because I couldn't locate so many failures.
01:37	Cark	maybe you need better error reporting
01:37	Cark	when working with agents, most errors are hidden
01:37	ayrnieu	I still don't know why this works but very similar earlier editions would support (! counter-tester :go) ... no failures, @counter-tester responds, but ... wait for it ... (? counter :status) shows no change.
01:39	ayrnieu	although I'm happy that counter-tester responds to :please-stop even while it is sleeping or telling itself to :forever
01:41	Cark	that not your trouble but, why do you need the ? function ?
01:42	Cark	can't you just read the current state with @ ?
01:42	ayrnieu	I can in these examples, yes.
01:42	Cark	is it because you want it encapsulated behind a function call ?
01:43	ayrnieu	I want something to match the Erlang pattern where process A sends its Pid with a message to process B, so that B can reply to A.
01:43	ayrnieu	rather, the more specific pattern where A sits and waits for B's reply.
01:44	Cark	yep i see
01:44	Cark	anyways for your problem i'd sprinkle a good dose of println statements all over the place to see what's hapenning
01:44	Cark	concurrency is hard =/
01:46	ayrnieu	it's easier with enough architecture.
01:46	ayrnieu	for instance, how can I kill counter-tester without asking it so politely? :-)
01:47	Cark	i don't think there's anything in clojure to do that
01:47	ayrnieu	how can a monitoring process know when I do that?
01:47	ayrnieu	right.
01:48	Cark	well you're inventing new constructs there ... if you could find a way to access the underlying thread object ...
01:49	Cark	or maybe you should start the thread yourself for complete control
02:27	karmazilla	Trying to run a clj class (compiled, gen-class'ed) I get an exception that the something__init.class could not be located
02:33	karmazilla	nm
02:37	lisppaste8	ayrnieu annotated #74340 with "WFM. What are you doing?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74340#1
03:24	zakwilson	Has anybody made a simple Swing REPL that I could add on to an app for debugging?
03:31	ayrnieu	you can add clojure.contrib.server-socket:create-repl-server to an app for debugging.
03:33	ayrnieu	MikeM has a swing repl: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/64dd96887f23b08c/9b49c17330715693
03:33	ayrnieu	look here for related files: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/files
03:35	ayrnieu	oh, and there's this: http://github.com/Chouser/textjure/blob/4e1ad10474b134214ca959068879647430b9de38/srepl.clj
03:47	zakwilson	Thanks, ayrnieu.
04:03	AWizzArd	Moin moin
04:26	lisppaste8	ayrnieu pasted "mysterious ClassNotFoundException" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74563
04:27	ayrnieu	... can anyone explain that? This is for cl-format, which (among other things) is a pretty-printer for clojure, from CL. http://github.com/tomfaulhaber/cl-format/tree/master
04:31	ayrnieu	ah, I see. It should be building a class for ColumnWriter, and is not. I thought the problem was that it didn't put the .clj in the .jar
04:47	AWizzArd	ayrnieu: the ColumnWriter is a class yes? Why do you want to use it?
04:48	AWizzArd	shouldn't you instead (import it)?
04:48	ayrnieu	I don't, I just want cl-format to work. Its build.xml assumes that the class has already been compiled.
06:13	hoeck	wow, I just got the -> macro
06:23	opqdonut	you mean the -> type?
06:23	opqdonut	or a lambda expression \x ->
06:24	opqdonut	woops wrong channel
06:24	opqdonut	thought i was in #haskell, nvm
06:27	hoeck	opqdonut: i wish i could understand that too :)
06:30	lenst	,(macroexpand '(-> 1 (+ 2)))
06:30	clojurebot	(+ 1 2)
06:36	zakwilson	I'm getting java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/proxy/java/lang/Object$ActionListener when I try to compile a file that proxies ActionListener. I think I've seen this and solved it before, but I don't remember how.
06:48	leafw	supose I have three variables, and I want to check that none of them is -1. What is an idiomatic way to do so?
06:49	achim_p	zakwilson: apart from proxy, compilation works for you?
06:50	achim_p	leafw: i'd do it that way: (not-any? #{-1} [x y z])
06:50	leafw	hum, but if you had to do that a couple thousand times ...
06:50	leafw	doesn't look proper, even if idiomatic. Thanks in any case.
06:52	leafw	it does read, though, so clear :)
06:52	leafw	it's a pleasure to program again. I think I know too much java, and what ugliness java is going to under that short, nice, clear sentence.
06:59	achim_p	leafw: it's not especially slow. a chain of if-nots is faster, of course
07:03	achim_p	does anybody know of a smooth way of automatizing builds of mixed java/clojure projects?
07:03	achim_p	worst case scenario: an alternating dependecy chain java <- clojure <- java <- ... - can ant (or some other tool) be scripted to deal with this? i don't know ant at all
07:11	leafw	achim_p: then learn a bit of ant. The "simple" way to deal with circular dependencies is to call javac on all packages at once, letting java deal with them.
07:12	achim_p	leafw: yeah, but javac doesn't know how to handle .clj files
07:14	leafw	achim_p: true. Then you may need to do incremental compilations.
07:14	achim_p	leafw: is there any tool/framework that supports it?
07:15	achim_p	i'm looking at the java compiler api, but that doesn't seem to do dependency resolution at all (at first glance)
07:16	Lau_of_DK	cgrand: Did you fix that bug in core yesterday?
07:22	leafw	achim_p: I am not aware of any, but I don't use IDEs. Perhaps eclipse or netbeans let you do it.
07:22	leafw	particularly the eclipse compiler, I've seen it do much smarter things than javac
07:24	achim_p	leafw: thanks! i'll have a look. maybe it can be used standalone
07:24	Lau_of_DK	,(let [s1 [1 2] s2 [1 2]] (identical? (rest s1) (rest s2)))
07:24	clojurebot	false
07:26	Holcxjo	My understanding was that identical? is true in very few situations -- why would you want the two to be identical?
07:27	Lau_of_DK	The question is (identical? 2 2)
07:27	AWizzArd	yes
07:27	AWizzArd	All instances of primitive datatypes are Singletons.
07:27	Holcxjo	but (rest [1 2]) isn't 2, is it?
07:27	AWizzArd	But in theory you should not rely on that.
07:28	AWizzArd	Holcxjo: correct
07:28	AWizzArd	The rest is the vector that contains the 2.
07:29	Lau_of_DK	,(rest [1 2])
07:29	clojurebot	(2)
07:29	Holcxjo	I guess with a smart enough system one could hope for (let [s1 [1 2], s2 [1 2]] (identical? s1 s2)) to be true.
07:29	Holcxjo	But I wouldn't count on it
07:29	Lau_of_DK	Holcxjo: The problem is, that this bug causes 'partition-by', which Rich himself wrote, to crash
07:30	Holcxjo	let alone for something to be derived from them to be identical...
07:30	AWizzArd	Holcxjo: well, it would be possible for the compiler to make them identical.
07:31	AWizzArd	The problem is that this code runs on the JVM which was designed for a language that has side effects (Java).
07:31	AWizzArd	And in that case it would not be clear if you would actually want those objects to be the same.
07:32	Holcxjo	AWizzArd: But these are Clojure object which are immutable -- surely it is safe to make them identical?
07:32	AWizzArd	In principle yes, but Rich would have to work for that to work.
07:32	Holcxjo	AWizzArd: Again, I appreciate that the Clojure will probably not do this optimisation; not really worth it
07:33	AWizzArd	The JVM might not provide tools so that this behaviour could be implemented in one evening.
07:34	Lau_of_DK	I've seen Rich commit about ~8000 lines in a week, so.. its possible
07:34	AWizzArd	Although I think that the javac looks for string literals in source files and makes sure that each occurence of "hallo" references the same object in memory.
07:34	AWizzArd	Lau_of_DK: right g
07:34	AWizzArd	I'm not sure though if Rich is actually a real person. Possible that he is in reality an advanced Clojure program...
07:34	Lau_of_DK	But AWizzArd I think this is a change that has already been implemented, and then removed
07:35	Lau_of_DK	,(doc partition-by)
07:35	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: partition-by in this context
07:35	Lau_of_DK	(doc partition-by)
07:35	clojurebot	No entiendo
07:35	cgrand	Lau_of_DK: it wasn't a bug in core, rich never made any guarantee about identical?
07:35	Lau_of_DK	(doc contrib/partition-by)
07:35	clojurebot	Excuse me?
07:35	Lau_of_DK	cgrand: But he made partition-by which now dies, so that makes it a bug right?
07:36	cgrand	a bug in partition-by
07:36	Lau_of_DK	Thats a matter of definition - But I can agree that its not a bug since there are no guarantees
07:37	cgrand	identical? must really be used with extra cautiousness
07:38	AWizzArd	hmm, where does partition-by crash?
07:38	AWizzArd	Lau_of_DK: do you have a test case for me?
07:39	Lau_of_DK	(partition-by #(> % 5) [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10])
07:39	cgrand	AWizzard: (partition-by identity [1 2]) in contrib < r423
07:41	cgrand	but (partition-by identity '(1 2)) worked fine, most people must have been using partition-by on lazy seqs so were not experiencing this bug
07:48	Holcxjo	clojurebot latest?
07:51	cgrand	Lau_of_DK: making the promise that (let [v [1 2]] (identical? (seq v) (seq v))) and (let [v [1 2]] (identical? (rest v) (rest v))) etc. return true would be fasible but would consume a lot of memory once the seq is realized (one seq object per item in the vector)
07:51	Lau_of_DK	Thats true
07:52	Lau_of_DK	I dont really need it, I just thought it needed to be discussed, for the current situation I'll work my way around it
07:53	cgrand	the current situation being your use of partition-by?
07:54	Lau_of_DK	Yes
07:54	cgrand	you don't want to update your copy of contrib?
07:55	Lau_of_DK	If its fixed in contrib, updating is not a problem
07:56	cgrand	I fixed it yesterday when you reported the bug
07:56	Lau_of_DK	Good man - Thanks alot
08:06	Lau_of_DK	You can pass the contents of a file to your function as a stream, using FileInputStream. What are my options if I want a plain string, to be passed as a stream ?
08:10	cgrand	(-> s (.getBytes "UTF-8") ByteArrayInputStream.) ; you can't use a Reader?
08:13	Lau_of_DK	Im not sure - Im Java illiterate
08:13	leafw	Lau_of_DK: StringReader http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/io/StringReader.html
08:15	Lau_of_DK	That looks like the ticket
08:15	Lau_of_DK	Thanks
08:15	cgrand	if you want to deal with characters use Reader/Writer, Streams are for bytes
08:16	Lau_of_DK	I need something that line-seq will swallow, ideally a BufferedReader of some sort
08:18	Lau_of_DK	StringReader -> BufferedReader works like a charm
08:22	Raynes	Lau_of_DK: Does DK stand for Donkey Kong?
08:24	AWizzArd	or could it be Denmark?
08:25	Holcxjo	Denmark is quite likely -- ip address is from Aalborg, DK
08:27	Raynes	It should stand for donkey kong.
08:27	Raynes	:<
08:28	Lau_of_DK	Raynes: Its short for Denmark
08:28	Raynes	That sucks.
08:29	Holcxjo	Raynes: Denmark is quite nice actually
08:30	Raynes	I don't care. He shouldn't have DK in his name unless it stands for Donkey Kong.
08:30	Raynes	It's just not right.
08:31	Holcxjo	The spaniards might argue that you should not have "es" in your name unless you are from Spain. :-)
08:33	Lau_of_DK	Holcxjo: Its been a while since Denmark was 'nice' :)
08:33	Raynes	Lau_of_DK: Is there any Donkey Kong in Denmark?
08:33	Lau_of_DK	Raynes... Do you want a recommendation for another channel that might be more your style of chatting?
08:34	Raynes	I'm just joking around. I didn't know off topic chatting was not allowed here, and I didn't realize I was bother anyone.
08:35	Raynes	bothering*
08:35	Lau_of_DK	Dont worry about it - Normally Rich is pretty strict about off-topic chat. In this case, I just felt like it was a bit pointless :)
08:36	Raynes	Might I suggest making a channel specifically for off-topic chat. Even #Haskell has it's #Haskell-Blah off topic counterpart.
08:40	Lau_of_DK	Raynes: Its been discussed, and its been decided due to the low volume we currently have, that its best not to seperate the two.
08:40	Lau_of_DK	I agree with that actually, its great for newcomers to come in here and get the latest news straight from Rich
08:40	Lau_of_DK	He's pretty active
08:42	Raynes	What logic is that? Have a channel set aside just for those who don't want to talk about Clojure, how could that possibly effect the volume of this channel? If people want to talk about Clojure, they will know where to go.
08:42	Raynes	You'll have to explain what you mean better, because it just isn't sinking in for me.
08:44	Raynes	Unless you want more off topic chatter going on in here, and less people who actually talk. If that's the case then I suppose I'm wrong.
08:44	Raynes	Well anyways, I'm going to shut up with the off-topicness before someone cracks the whip.
08:46	lisppaste8	red_fish pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74571
08:47	lisppaste8	red_fish pasted "Object in clojure like javascript" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74572
09:39	cooldude127	can anyone explain why taking the value of a macro is simply not allowed?
09:39	keithb	What is the best language construct to use when I want to perform a side effect n times? loop seems a little awkward because I have to explicitly state an exit condition with if.
09:39	cooldude127	what's different than taking the value of a function?
09:40	cooldude127	keithb: while? maybe a for with a dorun around it?
09:45	durka42	doseq?
09:46	rhickey	keithb: dotimes
09:46	rhickey	(doc dotimes)
09:46	clojurebot	bindings => name n Repeatedly executes body (presumably for side-effects) with name bound to integers from 0 through n-1.; arglists ([bindings & body])
09:48	keithb	Thanks, everyone. Rich, dotimes is exactly what I was looking for.
09:54	rhickey	library page shaping up: http://clojure.org/libraries
10:05	durka42	i think clojure.org/libraries needs a TOC at the top
10:05	durka42	i bet it could be auto-generated
10:12	red_fish	What do you think about encapsulation in clojure by objects (hashmap)? http://www.crockford.com/javascript/private.html
10:13	red_fish	http://paste.lisp.org/display/74572
10:13	leafw	red_fish: isn't that a bean?
10:13	leafw	,(doc bean)
10:13	clojurebot	"([x]); Takes a Java object and returns a read-only implementation of the map abstraction based upon its JavaBean properties."
10:14	red_fish	leafw: I don't know
10:16	leafw	,(let [b (bean "that")] (:bytes b))
10:16	clojurebot	#<byte[] [B@7bd86d>
10:16	cooldude127	no not a bean in the sense of clojure, but it behaves an awful lot like a java bean
10:16	red_fish	it's a javascript tecnique
10:16	red_fish	for private e public methods
10:17	leafw	yeah I see that the pastebin example is quite different. But that style is like building an object oriented system ... which you can do with defstruct
10:17	red_fish	that's the point
10:17	cooldude127	in clojure, if you have a setter, you're doing it wrong
10:17	red_fish	how can I implement encapsulation with defstruct?
10:18	leafw	red_fish: consider that perhaps you don't need encapsulation, because clojure objects are all immutable.
10:18	cooldude127	red_fish: what exactly do you need encapsulation for?
10:18	leafw	red_fish: only if you include java objects in them, with their imperative model baked in, you may want to protect them.
10:18	red_fish	cooldude127: to master complexity of big programs
10:19	cooldude127	red_fish: i'm not sure i understand. in clojure, i don't think encapsulation makes sense
10:19	red_fish	In computer science encapsulation and information hiding makes sense
10:20	red_fish	functional decomposition doesn't scale to program of 10M sloc
10:20	cooldude127	we have data, and we have functions that operate on that data. but since everything is immutable, why do we need to hide anything?
10:20	red_fish	hide details
10:20	red_fish	conventional interfaces
10:20	red_fish	blackbox
10:21	red_fish	I would like to prove the OO is a particular case o functional paradigm
10:21	cooldude127	red_fish: you can achieve a black box by just creating a set of functions that operate on your data, and only using those functions to manipulate them
10:21	red_fish	how can I enforce that?
10:21	cooldude127	encapsulation isn't necessary if you behave yourself
10:22	cooldude127	red_fish: why should you have to?
10:22	red_fish	Just curiosity
10:22	Chousuke	enforced encapsulation is pointless if you ask me.
10:23	Chousuke	there's always a way around it
10:23	cooldude127	it just doesn't make sense to me in a functional context
10:24	cooldude127	when there is no danger of your details being messed with, who cares who sees them?
10:26	Chousuke	of course a compiler can "enforce" encapsulation by doing type checking and stuff, but in a dynamic language you just need to trust the user not to do stupid things.
10:26	cooldude127	Chousuke: dynamic typing is all about trust
10:27	Chousuke	it's their fault anyway if they go and do things your library does not support.
10:27	leafw	red_fish: "functional decomposition doesn't scale to program of 10M sloc" -- check your premises. In my experience, only functional style with a very small mutable core enabled success in large projects with several developers.
10:27	red_fish	If I don't publish a public interface, your client could write their own functions and you cannot change the implementation details of your data
10:28	cooldude127	red_fish: you should have already written your public interface
10:28	cooldude127	your library is the public interface
10:28	red_fish	the functions or the data?
10:29	cooldude127	if they mess with your structures without using your functions, they're asking for it
10:29	cooldude127	red_fish: the functions are the interface
10:29	Chousuke	I have no experience of very large projects, but I have to say that I find functional interfaces much easier to cope with than something object-oriented, like the java standard library for example.
10:29	Chousuke	the java libraries have rather complex dependencies; if you have a functional interface, you can ignore all that.
10:30	cooldude127	yeah
10:30	shoover``	publish public functions, which accept and return data and internally control any side effects. clients can do what they want to the data, but they must call your functions to get side effects. verify the data yourself before making side effects
10:30	Chousuke	I guess it's closest to true encapsulation that you can get :/
10:31	Chousuke	if you have a function that is known to work, you do not need to know anything about how it works, because it has no side-effects :)
10:31	red_fish	shoover``: you mean I have to you defn- and def-?
10:32	cooldude127	yeah those would be advised if you don't want something to be public
10:32	red_fish	can you explain how would you implement separation of responsability in the snake example?
10:33	cooldude127	not familiar with the snake example
10:33	red_fish	http://github.com/stuarthalloway/programming-clojure/blob/a3c829f5726c0ab1e565aff86a2e68eca8539a47/examples/snake.clj
10:34	red_fish	where is the public interface?
10:34	shoover``	red_fish: yes, I've seen examples where state is maintained via refs and agents hidden behind functions. you can define the state with def- to make sure it doesn't leak out
10:34	red_fish	where are the implementationd details?
10:35	Chousuke	red_fish: the public interface is the "game" function
10:35	shoover``	the clojure standard library is full of examples that hide implementation details. agents and refs themselves, for example. simple function interfaces that hide all kinds of details
10:36	Chousuke	red_fish: that's not so great an example though as it's not a library
10:37	red_fish	the snake entity (or object in java) is not encapsulated very well in my opinion
10:37	Chousuke	red_fish: but you can see how the code is divided to the functional parts, then the mutable parts, and then the UI part.
10:37	cooldude127	red_fish: what's wrong with the snake?
10:38	Chousuke	it's a functional piece of data; it's not like you can modify it from the outside
10:39	red_fish	how can I identify the functions that modify the snake structure?
10:39	cooldude127	red_fish: nothing modifies a snake
10:39	red_fish	ok
10:39	cooldude127	red_fish: snakes and everything else are immutable
10:39	red_fish	that produce new snake?
10:40	Chousuke	red_fish: you can look for functions that take a snake as an argument.
10:40	red_fish	probably I should create a namespace only for snake
10:40	cooldude127	red_fish: the ones that sound like it: turn, move, etc.
10:40	red_fish	that's the problem
10:41	red_fish	image 10M sloc
10:41	Chousuke	ah, well, that's just a naming problem.
10:41	Chousuke	you can name them snake-turn or something if you want.
10:41	red_fish	turn what? snake, car, plane...
10:41	cooldude127	red_fish: ok, separate the namespaces
10:41	cooldude127	that's hardly an encapsulation problem
10:41	Chousuke	or make a multimethod :)
10:41	cooldude127	yeah that
10:42	red_fish	I wanna make a new game
10:42	Chousuke	with multimethods the actual work methods could be defined private too, I guess
10:42	red_fish	if I wanna make a new game and reuse the code of snake, I cannot
10:42	cooldude127	red_fish: why not?
10:43	Chousuke	red_fish: if you have snakes like the snake in the game, sure you can. :)
10:43	Chousuke	your snakes could even have extra attributes, because the snake is just a map
10:43	red_fish	the contract between me and the person who wrote the snake stuff is not clear enough in my opinion
10:43	cooldude127	red_fish: the snake example was not written to be a library
10:43	cooldude127	it's a silly example for the book on how to write an app with a gui
10:44	red_fish	ok
10:44	red_fish	I will find a better example
10:44	red_fish	thx
10:44	Chousuke	any "contracts" are just documentation issues. :)
10:44	cooldude127	a library should have a better contract
10:44	gnuvince	I gotta say guys, the Clojure community is growing pretty nicely. Nearly 120 users on the IRC channel, the Google group is pretty busy and I had an answer to a question on my blog within an hour.
10:44	cooldude127	but that doesn't mean we need enforced encapsulation
10:44	cooldude127	gnuvince: gotta love it
10:44	gnuvince	cooldude127: definitely
10:45	Chousuke	static type checking can be nice though; but you don't OO to get that.
10:45	cooldude127	for instance haskell
10:45	Chousuke	yeah. that.
10:45	gnuvince	Haskell++
10:45	gnuvince	:)
10:45	cooldude127	i wish i could understand haskell well enough to have fun with it
10:46	Chousuke	or you could write OO with a functional style, anyway.
10:46	gnuvince	Didn't Rich talk about having something similar to Qi inside Clojure?
10:46	Chousuke	like the snake example kind of is.
10:46	Chousuke	the snake is an object, and the functions that take a snake are its methods :)
10:47	cooldude127	yeah
10:47	gnuvince	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-12-11.html#10:25
10:58	AWizzArd	Although a static type system over Clojure would be a nice thing, it would also result in a different language.
11:07	gnuvince	AWizzArd: undoubtly.
11:31	zakwilson	Regarding the earlier discussion about encapsulation, I think you're most likely doing something wrong if a Clojure application gets to 10M loc.
11:31	Chousuke	heheh
11:32	red_fish	zakwilson: do you mean that big applications of 10M sloc are all wrong or only if they are written in clojure?
11:32	Chousuke	red_fish: I think he means that no application would be 10M loc in clojure
11:33	red_fish	OpenOffice is 10M sloc, if I read correctly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_lines_of_code
11:33	Chousuke	well, OO.org is not written in clojure :)
11:34	red_fish	What's the difference?
11:34	zakwilson	OO is, I think written in C++ and a little Java.
11:34	red_fish	The language is not good for that task?
11:35	zakwilson	Clojure allows significantly more compression of code.
11:35	red_fish	10 times?
11:35	red_fish	than would be 1M of sloc
11:35	gnuvince	red_fish: If you code in Clojure like you should, it will be extremely unlikely that you would ever reach 10M lines of code.
11:35	zakwilson	10 times, or more.
11:36	kefka	What is the "best practices way" of exposing a Clojure function so it can be called from Java?
11:36	red_fish	Can I write a program in clojure of 100K of sloc or it's madness?
11:36	Chousuke	red_fish: sure you can. but by clojure standards, that is already a very large program :)
11:36	gnuvince	red_fish: sure; but what we mean is that Clojure has potential for more abstraction than Java, so you should end up with less boilerplate code.
11:37	zakwilson	Any repetative code can be abstracted away with a macro.
11:37	danm_	this conversation seems to be putting the cart in front of the horse, anyway
11:38	danm_	I think the best well known large lisp application is probably the one from ITA?
11:38	kefka	I assume there is a way to do this, right? How do you call a Clojure function from Java?
11:38	danm_	and I believe they said the one app is around 500k loc
11:38	Chousuke	kefka: there's an example of that on the site I think
11:38	red_fish	can I write a new webbroweser in clojure?
11:38	Chousuke	of course.
11:39	cooldude127	red_fish: if you're unsatisfied with current web browsers
11:39	danm_	I'm unsatisfied with them, but I can't figure out why
11:39	danm_	(haha)
11:39	kefka	Where? I'm under intense time pressure right now.
11:39	Chousuke	it's not a question of whether you can, but whether you should :)
11:39	kefka	Chousuke: Where is the example?
11:39	kefka	Chousuke: Is it in that proxy function in the Java Interop section?
11:39	zakwilson	CL doesn't have enforced encapsulation, unless you do it yourself with closures, and I don't think that's ever been cited as an issue by anybody who has used it for large applications.
11:39	red_fish	next word processor in clojure :-)
11:40	scottj	danm_: emacs has 1M loc
11:40	danm_	scottj: there you go
11:40	zakwilson	And CL does nothing to discourage mutation.
11:40	danm_	crazy
11:40	Chousuke	kefka: hm, no.
11:40	danm_	scottj: how much of that is elisp?
11:40	Chousuke	kefka: let me see if I can find the example.
11:40	Chousuke	danm_: probably most of it.
11:41	Chousuke	but emacs is gigantic
11:41	scottj	danm_: there's over a million in lisp, much less than that in C
11:41	danm_	emacs sure is gigantic
11:41	danm_	emacs is like golf, easy to get started with, impossible to master
11:42	Chousuke	kefka: ah, it was in the wiki: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Tutorials_and_Tips#Invoking_Clojure_from_Java
11:43	Chousuke	kefka: that's one way; another way is to use gen-class to generate a java class.
11:43	Chousuke	or proxy, if you just need to subclass something/implement an interface.
11:44	zakwilson	In any case, if you want encapsulation and such, it wouldn't be that much work to build your own object system on top of structmaps.
11:45	zakwilson	I think Paul Graham's "On Lisp" has a design for one.
11:45	cooldude127	zakwilson: but it just seems to make things more complicated for no gain
11:45	cooldude127	especially in clojure
11:46	zakwilson	I agree, cooldude127. red_fish seems to want it though.
11:46	cooldude127	yeah
11:46	cooldude127	i'm trying to convince him he doesn't need it
11:47	Chousuke	I think property-oriented programming (as Yegge would call it, I think) fits clojure. that is, if you need an object, just use a map :)
11:47	cooldude127	yeah
11:47	cooldude127	i've been doing a lot of that
11:48	zakwilson	Yes, though property-oriented programming did include inheritance. It wouldn't be hard to do structmaps with inheritance and the name stored somewhere such that it could be used for method dispatch.
11:49	cooldude127	zakwilson: inheritance is actually already there
11:49	Chousuke	or just normal maps I guess.
11:49	cooldude127	look into hierarchies
11:50	zakwilson	Oh.
11:51	cooldude127	zakwilson: they're kinda new
11:53	zakwilson	Wow... those do exactly what I thought was missing from Clojure's multimethods relative to CL... except for that before/after/around part.
11:53	cooldude127	zakwilson: lol
11:53	zakwilson	I have very occasionally found around methods to be exceedingly useful.
12:05	dnolen	zakwilson: http://tinyurl.com/dd2ljx, I started a project to see how difficult it be to get basic inheritance, multiple inheritance, and default initial values all based on structs. Also I removed the need to manage tag hierarchies. You only need to use them in multimethod dispatch.
12:06	dnolen	zakwilson: doesn't wouldn't be too hard to implement before/after/around as long as you don't mind calling a macro instead of the built into multimethod constructs. they are very cool and useful.
12:06	dnolen	doesn't seem it would be too hard i mean.
12:08	zakwilson	dnolen: I think the problem with that is where before/after/around are most useful for adding functionality to a library or some such where the original author may not have anticipated the need. (what seems to have been branded as aspect-oriented programming more recently)
12:10	dnolen	zakwilson: true but it also allows the original to present a better API (that is not forcing users to call super). Sometimes a method really requires some sort of pre-and-post side effect (internal bookkeeping), before/after/around let's you logically keep those methods together.
12:11	hiredman	scope is coming
12:12	hiredman	http://paste.lisp.org/display/73838
12:13	hiredman	^- scope for :fails :succeeds and :exits
12:14	gnuvince	,(isa? "" java.lang.String)
12:14	clojurebot	false
12:14	gnuvince	,(isa? (class "") java.lang.String)
12:14	clojurebot	true
12:16	dnolen	hiredman, cool I saw that earlier, :enters of course would be nice.
12:18	shoover``	whidden: I have a workaround for the hanging slime repl
12:24	lisppaste8	shoover pasted "hack so slime repl doesn't hang" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74588
12:24	lisppaste8	shoover annotated #74588 with "alternate fix, haven't tested on XP yet" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74588#1
12:51	whidden	shoover: just implementing it now.
12:52	whidden	shoover:yeah!!
12:55	whidden	Shoover: at least on my xp box it works, so it now you can say limiited testing on xp.
12:55	shoover``	btw, which paste did you test? the .el or the .clj?
12:55	whidden	both
12:55	whidden	i switched the read ahead of the write
12:55	whidden	in the clj
12:56	whidden	and added the println call in the el
12:56	whidden	want me to back out one of the changes?
12:56	shoover``	did you test them separately? as in, leave el alone, patch connection.clj
12:57	whidden	nope
12:57	whidden	i can quickly do that now, if you like.
12:57	shoover``	please do (restart emacs, just to make sure). I've only tested the first patch. the second is a hunch
12:58	lisppaste8	shoover annotated #74588 with "attribution for idea to switch order of stream creation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74588#2
12:59	whidden	shoover: i backed out the connection.clj change and we have success.
13:10	shoover``	those fixes both look pretty random, but here's what threw me: if you trace back through versions of Clojure, the hang comes into play when Ref.java stops calling UUID.randomUUID
13:16	whidden	shoover: i read the doc... i don't think the order in this case matters, but may in the future.
13:33	hiredman	clojurebot: monads?
13:33	clojurebot	monads is http://www.bolour.com/papers/monads-through-pictures.html
13:33	hiredman	clojurebot: monads is also http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/monad-in-Scheme.html
13:33	clojurebot	c'est bon!
13:33	gnuvince	http://www.lispcast.com/lisp1.html
13:34	cgrand	gnuvince: I found no way to comment on this blog: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7tny8/the_beauty_of_lisp1/
13:35	StartsWithK	any one here using apache ivy to track external dependenys for there clojure projects?
13:52	jbondeson	I love people: http://www.3ofcoins.net/2009/01/30/common-lisp-clojure-and-seriousness/
13:52	jbondeson	(don't know if that was already posted)
13:56	Chousuke	my idea of a toy language is a bit different from his definition :/
13:57	WizardofWestmarc	I think a lot of people's is
13:57	jbondeson	yeah, the whole "If it's not from a committee it's a toy" is hilarious
13:57	walters	i'm sure he collects canned food for a nuclear catastrophe too
13:57	WizardofWestmarc	I read that and went "Perl's a toy language? Really?"
13:58	WizardofWestmarc	I'm not a Perl fan but come on
13:58	jbondeson	I also love that anything on a VM is a toy
13:58	WizardofWestmarc	oh, and Python's a toy too!
13:58	Chousuke	Though I think if you dig deep enough, he has a point.
13:58	knapr	well id love a standalone clojure version. maybe i should writ eone. write iots own VM in asm
13:59	technomancy	the point is if you are good with adjectives, it's easy to be belittling.
13:59	WizardofWestmarc	by his definition that's still a toy
13:59	jbondeson	problem is it'd be sloooow
13:59	knapr	well clojure doesnt have a spec does it?
13:59	WizardofWestmarc	and yeah, trying to make something faster then the JVM and it's years of optimization research would be hard as hell
13:59	Chousuke	but he still makes it sound like these non-serious languages are somehow inferior.
13:59	gnuvince	By his definition, Common Lisp is not a serious language, because it depends upon C for its bootstrapping as far as I know
13:59	knapr	my point would be, who the hell cares? it gets shit done...
14:00	WizardofWestmarc	gnuvince: pretty sure CL bootstraps off of itself now
14:00	jbondeson	well, yes, I think that once clojure hit's 1.0 there may need to be a published standard.
14:00	jbondeson	hits even
14:00	WizardofWestmarc	it was just the first versions were written in C
14:00	gnuvince	WizardofWestmarc: not a single .c file in there?
14:00	Chousuke	WizardofWestmarc: SBCL does at least.
14:00	jbondeson	ummm... cl was around long before c.
14:00	Chousuke	it needs itself for compilation
14:01	WizardofWestmarc	it can compile off another CL last I knew, not just prior SBCLs
14:01	Chousuke	I guess
14:01	Chousuke	my macports installation just downloaded a binary version of SBCL to compile it :)
14:01	WizardofWestmarc	right, it certainly CAN use prior versions of itself
14:01	zakwilson	Common Lisp wasn't around before C, but earlier Lisps were.
14:02	WizardofWestmarc	it just doesn't have to be ONLY sbcl
14:02	gnuvince	Oh the famous "If rhickey get hit by a bus" argument
14:02	Chousuke	But I don't think Clojure needs a formal spec
14:02	Chousuke	just good documentation
14:03	knapr	what is it called when you attribute human attributes to dead things/machines? soemthing with -morphism...
14:03	gnuvince	antropomorphism?
14:03	vsthesquares	antropo
14:03	durka42	anthropo
14:03	zakwilson	SBCL can be compiled with SBCL, CMUCL, OpenMCL or CLISP, according to its website.
14:03	durka42	not too shabby
14:04	zakwilson	Though I think I once tried to compile it with CLISP and discovered that it's no longer supported.
14:04	knapr	yes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism
14:05	gnuvince	,(mod -3 2)
14:05	clojurebot	1
14:05	jbondeson	Chousuke: I think a formal spec would be nice, it wouldn't prevent change, it would simply allow for porting to different VMs or specialized compilers
14:05	gnuvince	,(div -3 2)
14:05	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: div in this context
14:05	gnuvince	hmmm
14:05	Chousuke	jbondeson: hmm.
14:05	zakwilson	But I think the idea that a language that's tied to a specific platform is a toy is silly.
14:05	technomancy	yeah, I'd be in favour of a formal spec once 1.0 has been out a while
14:05	gnuvince	If there's quot and rem, shouldn't there be div to complement mod?
14:05	technomancy	as long as it's an automated spec suite
14:05	Chousuke	jbondeson: well, good enough documentation could act as a spec :P
14:05	zakwilson	Java is tied to the JVM as well, and for all its faults, I don't think Java is exactly a toy.
14:06	Nafai	jbondeson: CL was first introduced in 1984, standardized in 1994. C was introduced in 1972.
14:06	Chousuke	jbondeson: just when you talk about a "formal" spec I keep thinking of the CL hyperspec
14:06	gnuvince	I like how Perl 6 are doing it: anything that passes the Perl 6 Test Suite is considered Perl 6
14:06	Chousuke	which, while great, is not the easiest thing to read.
14:06	hiredman	if CL is a serious language, why the hell would you want to be serious?
14:07	technomancy	definitely not something like the hyperspec
14:07	jbondeson	Chousuke: It doesn't have to be monolithic, but it should outline the contracts that the low level clojure functionality provides
14:07	jbondeson	Nafai: yeah, i looked that up, I thought CL got started in the 70s
14:07	technomancy	Chousuke: the rubyspec project is self-verifying
14:07	zakwilson	I actually think implementation-defined is a Good Thing. Code is less ambiguous than human language.
14:08	zakwilson	It does it the way the official implementation does it, or it's wrong.
14:08	technomancy	zakwilson: that's why the spec needs to be code as well
14:08	hiredman	because CL is so popular and is used everywhere because it is so serious
14:08	hiredman	...
14:08	gnuvince	zing
14:08	Chousuke	jbondeson: I think the host interaction could be problematic though.
14:08	hiredman	oh
14:08	hiredman	I think I forgot my sarcasm marker
14:08	hiredman	?
14:09	zakwilson	CL does have a few more users than Clojure.
14:09	Chousuke	for now :)
14:09	hiredman	zakwilson: snort
14:09	technomancy	gotta take velocity into account
14:09	zakwilson	In any case, it seems absurd to call either a toy language.
14:10	hiredman	is a rock with more moss on it a better rock?
14:10	technomancy	zakwilson: are you kidding? It's a great way to be able to sidestep what would be an otherwise-serious challenge to the dominance of CL. it's brilliant; you don't have to give real objections.
14:10	jbondeson	Chousuke: that's exactly why you want a spec though. if the host machine can't uphold the contract is it actually a valid implementation of Clojure?
14:11	Chousuke	I wonder.
14:11	Chousuke	I mean, clojure leaves out a lot of basic stuff because the host provides it already.
14:12	technomancy	Chousuke: a spec would make it easier to keep Clojure and ClojureScript in sync
14:12	Chousuke	I suppose.
14:12	zakwilson	Cobol and Java are obviously among the best languages ever invented since more LOC exist in those than just about anything else ;)
14:12	Chousuke	if you wanted clojure to be reimplementable you'd have to specify higher level wrappers for the basic functionality.
14:12	technomancy	zakwilson: and elisp is obviously the best lisp ever. =)
14:12	jbondeson	Yeah, but how many of those java LOCs are generated! =P
14:12	hiredman	Duck Languages for Duck Types
14:13	zakwilson	Java: so easy, even your IDE can write it.
14:14	knapr	do you guys feel clojure is for the future? i mostly think it is really good now. and in the future something like haskell (or perhaps a cleaned up, less verbose, better type-inferenced scala)
14:14	gnuvince	knapr: "The best way to predict the future is to invent it"
14:15	hiredman	knapr: neither of those is a dynamic lisp functional lisp
14:15	gnuvince	I think Clojure has more promise as it's more "practical" right now than Haskell, but I wouldn't be surprised if the influence of Haskell was felt very widely in the future.
14:15	hiredman	which is what I crave
14:15	jbondeson	I've said it before, but haskell would need a big corporate sponser to take it to "professional" status.
14:15	hiredman	~clojuritis
14:15	clojurebot	Excuse me?
14:15	hiredman	~clojureitis
14:15	clojurebot	clojureitis is a condition in which it becomes impossible to program in other languages anymore
14:15	zakwilson	I think Clojure is the best general-purpose language for now and the near-future. I don't expect the JVM to be dominant forever, but whatever does end up being very useful in the future will probably be influenced by Clojure.
14:16	gnuvince	jbondeson: I think it would need more than that. Some people just don't get functional programming (immutable values, first class functions, etc.)
14:16	icey	For the folks who came to Clojure from Ruby & Python, do you feel that Clojure is currently more productive than those languages for day-to-day use?
14:17	technomancy	icey: it depends on the problem. definitely not for very simple things because of the JVM init time and the lack of a package manager.
14:17	zakwilson	icey: I've made occasional use of Ruby in the past, and I absolutely feel that Clojure is more productive for building applications.
14:18	zakwilson	Ruby, on the other hand is much better for small scripts, in large part due to startup time.
14:18	gnuvince	icey: I came from Python (but with some baggage from CL and Scheme) and right now, it's not, because I am not familiar at all with the Java library
14:18	technomancy	for things that are very unixy Ruby is still a better choice for me
14:18	gnuvince	as I learn it, I imagine that it'll become easier and faster and be in the same league as Python, definitely,.
14:19	zakwilson	CL was my language of choice before Clojure, and I do find Clojure more productive in general. Dealing with the Java library does occasionally make me want to tear out my hair.
14:19	icey	gnuvince: that's actually the source of my question. I'm a C# & Python guy today, and I keep running into the whole "I don't know Java" problem when working with Clojure.
14:19	jbondeson	gnuvince: Yes, but clojure still has that problem, and possibly moreso due to the lisp-y style. Though, I think any programmer worth his salt should be able to be up and running in a functional language withing a couple of days
14:19	icey	or rather, I don't know what's available in Java
14:19	hiredman	icey: google + javadoc = win
14:19	zakwilson	Fortunately, there are a LOT of tutorials out there for doing... just about anything in Java.
14:19	zakwilson	Some of them are even good.
14:20	gnuvince	jbondeson: at least Clojure doesn't separate IO code from pure code and have things like "monomorphism restriction" that could kill 3 newbs in one swift ;)
14:20	icey	hiredman: yeah, I need to be better about googling. I find myself reinventing things that probably already have really good libraries.
14:20	WizardofWestmarc	Java is some of the most documented coding infrastucture available, probably since it's used by everyone and their mother :P
14:20	zakwilson	On the subject of the Java libraries - does anyone else consider classes that exist solely to be arguments to the constructors of other classes to be an antipattern?
14:20	gnuvince	icey: I feel that the way to remedy this is to just take on a project and try to push your way through
14:20	jbondeson	gnuvince: hahaha, very true. The 'language' of clojure is much less, shall we say, academic
14:20	hiredman	zakwilson: it is the only way for java to have closures right now
14:21	zakwilson	hiredman: I'm not sure I get it.
14:21	gnuvince	jbondeson: I've found that pretty much all dynamically typed languages (save for Perl) usually have much simpler semantics than statically typed languages.
14:21	hiredman	zakwilson: you make an anon inner class
14:23	icey	gnuvince: you're probably right. I just need to find something non-trivial to make ;)
14:23	gnuvince	icey: good luck :)
14:23	zakwilson	hiredman: I'd probably have to write some non-trivial Java to really get it. Thanks for trying to explain.
14:24	hiredman	zakwilson: so java has this syntax for making an anonymous "class" sort of like (fn [] ) makes an anonymous function
14:25	hiredman	and the anonymous class inherits it's definition from some other class or interface
14:25	sohail	hiredman, the closure created by an anonymous class can only use final variables. Which is fine, given clojure's nature :-)
14:25	hiredman	sohail: shrug
14:26	zakwilson	Right, I've heard of that, and I can see how it would be useful. What I can't see is why it would be useful for a constructor to take a Foo, which is just a wrapper around three ints, instead of three ints.
14:26	jbondeson	this is when conversations get tangled, talking about closures and clojure
14:26	hiredman	I am just explaining why someone writing java may have a class that is only used as a parameter
14:26	zakwilson	When a Foo is NEVER used for anything else.
14:26	hiredman	shrug
14:27	zakwilson	So... you subclass it anonymously and then pass that to a Bar constructor, making the new Bar something like a closure?
14:27	hiredman	sort of, yes
14:28	zakwilson	I think I may still be missing something, but since I don't anticipate ever using Java, I don't think it matters too much.
14:28	hiredman	ugh, I just don't get it
14:28	zakwilson	I get Java well enough to call it from Clojure. That will do for the moment.
14:29	hiredman	CLJOS?
14:29	jbondeson	heh
14:29	zakwilson	Someone's trying to replicate CLOS in Clojure?
14:29	jbondeson	CLOS was powerful in CL
14:29	jbondeson	convoluted, but powerful
14:29	dnolen	zakwilson: hardly, it's an attempt add some OO features to structmaps
14:30	dnolen	I started it, it needs a LOT of work
14:30	zakwilson	The thing I miss is before/after/around.
14:30	jbondeson	:before, :after, and :around were great for stacking methods
14:30	technomancy	hiredman: I think the name's misleading
14:30	jbondeson	gah
14:31	zakwilson	I didn't actually use them very often, but when I did, any other solution would have required half a page of extra code.
14:31	hiredman	so the java object system, then another one?
14:31	jbondeson	after was perfect for implementing what people now call AOP
14:32	technomancy	hiredman: then a good one, hopefully. =)
14:32	dnolen	technomancy: agreed, it was joke, open to suggestions, clj-object?
14:32	zakwilson	jbondeson: I said the same thing a couple hours ago,
14:32	technomancy	dnolen: I'm a fan of names that are unique without using "clj" or clj-related puns... but they are harder to come up with.
14:33	hiredman	jbondeson: have you seen (scope ...) ?
14:33	dnolen	technomancy: yup.
14:33	LordOfTheNoobs	zakwilson: since, excepting basic types (integers, characters, etc), only objects can be created in java, in order to pass a first-order function with internally bound state you have to create an anonymous object containing the state with the function attached to its definition. Instead of an anonymous function with enclosed state, it is an anonymous object with class variables and an invoke method. ( or so I understand )
14:33	technomancy	dnolen: I like to draw from mythology and history
14:33	technomancy	or non-clj-related wordplay
14:36	jbondeson	hiredman: i've never used it, but i assume scope is a form of binding macro?
14:37	hiredman	jbondeson: it lets you define actions that happen when you leave the scope
14:38	hiredman	I don't really know common lisp, but that sounds sort of like before/after
14:39	WizardofWestmarc	it does sound sorta similar to after if I'm understanding it (scope) correctly
14:39	zakwilson	It does, except that you can add a before/after/around method to an existing generic function without touching its source or any calls to it.
14:40	jbondeson	right, you can stack onto methods very easily
14:43	zakwilson	So you can do something like (defmethod dispatch-request (:around dispatch-table) (unless (banned? (get-ip)) (call-next-method)))
14:44	zakwilson	And I've done exactly that with Hunchentoot.
14:44	jbondeson	hiredman: where is scope defined? I can't find it in core or contrib.
14:45	hiredman	jbondeson: it us an up and coming feature
14:45	jbondeson	ah
14:45	hiredman	clojurebot: horizons?
14:45	clojurebot	horizons is http://gist.github.com/51721
14:45	jbondeson	it sounded familiar
14:45	hiredman	I took a crack at it there
14:45	zakwilson	http://paste.lisp.org/display/73838
14:45	jbondeson	that was what rich was discussing the naming about last week
14:46	hiredman	jbondeson: ugh, must has missed that
14:46	hiredman	he was talking about "named" scopes
14:47	hiredman	so you could attach to a scope by name, not just the one you happen to be in
14:47	jbondeson	huh
14:48	jbondeson	i'd have to see that in action.
14:48	gnuvince	Sometimes, I wish rhickey was more of a blogger; I'd love to hear about upcoming features that he's working on (e.g.: LFE)
14:49	WizardofWestmarc	The less time he spends blogging, the more time he can spend coding
14:49	hiredman_	ugh
14:49	BigTom	LFE?
14:49	WizardofWestmarc	though I will say, watching his video presentations is really interesting.
14:50	hiredman_	BigTom: left fold enumerator
14:50	WizardofWestmarc	hm, missed hearing about that one (LFE)
14:51	BigTom	hiredman_: thanks (I hope to know what that means soon :-/ )
14:54	WizardofWestmarc	oh
14:54	WizardofWestmarc	it's part of the new streams stuff
14:54	WizardofWestmarc	duh
15:00	BigTom	Anyone used the new watchers with swing?
15:00	BigTom	My toy GUI broke :-(
15:02	hiredman	gui :(
15:04	BigTom	I'll try and pull the code out, I was using watchers to update the EDT and I can't get the new way to work
15:06	jbondeson	now now hiredman, some times guis are necessary!
15:06	hiredman	yeah, but I hate at them
15:07	jbondeson	heh
15:07	jbondeson	I'm a big Qt fan, never been a fan of other GUI toolkits.
15:07	technomancy	saves a lot of pain when you can't go modal
15:08	WizardofWestmarc	haha rryan
15:09	gnuvince	but I hate writing guis
15:09	gnuvince	boring boiler plate code
15:13	WizardofWestmarc	from the snippits I've seen looks like clojure can hide a lot of it (go go magic macros!)
15:15	jbondeson	the thing i hate the most about guis is that you're always solving the same problems over and over again, just with slight twists.
15:15	hiredman	textjure just needs to get to the point where it can embed images and rendered html snippets in the repl output
15:16	jbondeson	haha
15:17	hiredman	I would still use vim though, I think
15:18	jbondeson	emacs fo' life
15:27	BigTom	hm
15:28	BigTom	I'm getting a java.util.concurrent.RejectedExecutionException when I send an action to an Agent (with a watcher), anyone have any pointers?
15:29	kotarak	BigTom: maybe you can post some code to a pastebin?
15:29	kotarak	lisppaste8: url
15:29	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
15:29	BigTom	yeah, this won't be pretty...
15:31	lisppaste8	BigTom pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74605
15:31	BigTom	there you go
15:33	BigTom	It worked a while back, when I ran it up today the add-watch no longer worked (new Clojure), my attempts to replace it have succeeded
15:35	kotarak	Which one of two watcher blocks to I have to comment in? Both?
15:36	BigTom	The last one
15:37	kotarak	I just get tons of null pointer exceptions.....
15:37	BigTom	Hmm, it throws the RejectedExecutionException with or without the watchers
15:39	lisppaste8	BigTom annotated #74605 with "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74605#1
15:39	kotarak	Not for me. The Swing window opens. But it seems I can do nothing. The a dialog pops up, that I lost....
15:40	BigTom	How do I check me clojure version?
15:40	gnuvince	BigTom: svn info
15:41	kotarak	Huh? Is it add-watch or add-watcher?
15:42	kotarak	add-watch is highlighted. But add-watcher is in Clojure. Was it renamed?
15:42	BigTom	it was add-watch, now it is add-watcher
15:42	eleftherios	can one call any java library from clojure or there is some other way?
15:42	kotarak	Oh. Ok. Have to update the highlighting.
15:44	kotarak	eleftherios: (def thing (new java.thing.Class)) (.someMethod thing with-some args here)? http://clojure.org/java_interop, does this help? Or do you have a specific problem?
15:44	BigTom	I am on v1235
15:45	kotarak	me too.
15:45	kotarak	In your second version, I get a wrong number of arguments for add-watcher.
15:45	BigTom	yeah, the arity changed too
15:45	BigTom	the args and their relationship changed
15:46	kotarak	Ok. So which version should I try? The first one you posted or the second one?
15:46	eleftherios	kotarak: no, I just couldn't find a FAQ about how one can use the Java libraries :-) Thanks
15:46	BigTom	I grabbed cells off the mailing list, that works
15:46	eleftherios	kotarak: no specific problem, just investigating if I should learn more :-)
15:46	kotarak	eleftherios: than the link should get you going. :)
15:47	BigTom	The second definitely used to work with the old watchers
15:47	BigTom	I wasn't sure if I had broken the other when investigating
15:47	kotarak	Can you post me the one which gives you the error?
15:47	eleftherios	kotarak: so in short (from what I gather from the link) one can call anything from the Java library?
15:48	eleftherios	with the dot notation
15:48	BigTom	eleftherios: pretty much
15:49	kotarak	eleftherios: Yes. java.Class/staticMember, (java.Class/staticMethod), (java.Class.) or (new java.Class) for constructor, (.method thing ...).
15:49	BigTom	,(Math/sqrt 4)
15:49	clojurebot	2.0
15:49	eleftherios	so one could suggest clojure as a replacement to Java for a large project
15:49	kotarak	,Math/PI
15:49	clojurebot	3.141592653589793
15:49	eyeris	Is the Clojure Google group moderated?
15:49	WizardofWestmarc	only for first posts afaik
15:49	kotarak	eyeris: the first post is checked by Rich
15:50	kotarak	yeah, WizardofWestmarc was faster. :)
15:50	eyeris	kotarak Thanks. I just wanted to make sure I didn't somehow screw it up :)
15:50	WizardofWestmarc	well I cheated and didn't type his name :P
15:50	kotarak	hehe
15:50	kotarak	That's why the first post often shows up twice.
15:51	WizardofWestmarc	...I never thought of that
15:51	kotarak	The first hangs in the "Rich" loop and so many post it again.
15:51	kotarak	Then both get posted.
15:51	WizardofWestmarc	does the group say on the GG page that the first posts are moderated?
15:51	kotarak	No.
15:51	kotarak	At least I'm not aware of such a notice.
15:52	BigTom	kotarak: I am being dragged away, thanks for the assist, I'll work it out and get back to euler.
15:53	kotarak	BigTom: have fun! :)
15:53	BigTom	kotarak: cheers
15:55	Lau_of_DK	Hey hey good folk of Clojure
15:59	gnuvince	Hi Lau
16:09	cads	can anyone here recommend the enclojure plugin for netbeans?
16:09	cads	or is it at a point where I ought to take a hit and just learn emacs?
16:11	WizardofWestmarc	I tried it out of curiosity, had a lot of repl problems, but that was a while ago
16:11	WizardofWestmarc	of course I'm not a netbeans guy so...
16:11	kotarak	cads: you can also give Vim a try...
16:12	cads	emacs has been on my tolearn list forever and a day
16:13	cads	but the only time I have reason to is when I learn a new language, where having to learn emacs at the same time would be frustrating, and I end up using an IDE!
16:13	Lau_of_DK	cads, emacs is well worth it :)
16:13	kotarak	cads: it's an editor like any other.... The enclojure or the Eclipse plugin might become some viable alternative.
16:13	kotarak	I'm working on bringing Vim on par. :)
16:13	Lau_of_DK	kotarak: please...
16:14	Lau_of_DK	cads: Emacs is superior to all competetion in every regard. You are welcome to test out 10 editors and get back to me, and tell me that Im right.
16:14	cads	the macro facilities alone
16:15	cads	emacs has always radiated power at me
16:15	Chouser	I've given emacs a good solid try at least twice before, and come crawling back to vim each time.
16:15	leafw	macros in vim are trivial. Unfortunatey, vim REPL's are not so good; usually involve screen (like gorilla does)
16:15	leafw	same here. ViM forever. I don't have two special fingers to push control+this alt+that for trivial commands.
16:16	kotarak	leafw: gorilla does not need screen
16:16	leafw	kotarak: then the other. I always give up on REPLs in vim.
16:16	kotarak	leafw: with the newest generation in nailgun it should be at least as pleasant an experience as with SLIME.
16:16	kotarak	(reading all the SLIME post on the group...)
16:17	Chouser	next time I try emacs, I will not try to learn the "emacs way" do things as I have in the past. I will conform it to my will from the very beginning.
16:17	brianh	cads: as someone who used vi (many years ago) & now uses Eclipse, learning emacs has been a little... shall we say... painful
16:17	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: I think thats the whole point of Emacs
16:17	Lau_of_DK	Its bendable in every direction
16:17	kotarak	I tried eclim today. Eclipse + Vim. Seems to have some problems still....
16:17	cads	brianh, is there an eclipse plugin for clojure?
16:18	kotarak	cads: clojure-dev
16:18	Chouser	kotarak: I've used jVi with netbeans -- it's not a terrible start.
16:18	cads	now, I'm usually against using an IDE altogether, especially on my dated hardware, as modern ides are so damn heavy
16:18	brianh	cads: haven't tried it myself though
16:19	cads	nice would be a clojure based IDE like what squeak does
16:19	cads	while managing to be pretty light and quick
16:19	kotarak	Chouser: netbeans has problems on my mac. The create project dialog doesn't fit on my screen because it's too wide!!!!!! Must be trouble with the german version I guess....
16:19	brianh	why stop there. let's take it all the way to the metal! ;)
16:20	cads	brianh, was wondering about how hard that would be
16:20	cads	seems a lot of work is saved for the java compiler
16:21	brianh	cads: easy. just ask Chouser to do it!
16:21	cads	but I was wondering if clojure could be translated to common lisp, or c
16:21	cads	bet it wouldn't be anywhere near trivial
16:22	kotarak	that's the only true way of editing anyway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IBM_Port-A-Punch.jpg
16:22	Chouser	I bet it would be possible to AOT-compile Clojure to C++ source with one of those automaitic garbage collector libraries attached.
16:22	kotarak	boehm gc probably
16:24	cads	while we're at it we'd tack on the jvm so it could still do java stuff :D
16:24	brianh	kotarak: that picture just made me feel better about emacs. thx!
16:25	ayrnieu	just be sure to remap Caps Lock to Control.
16:25	brianh	ayrnieu: won't help me
16:26	lisppaste8	hiredman annotated #74521 with "prefix partial application maker" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74521#3
16:26	cads	emacs feels like it would be very powerful once you learned a few things about organizing and discovering key shortcuts. Once you've put in the time to customize your own working set of commands I'm sure you fall in love with it
16:26	brianh	ayrnieu: i'm trying to use this: http://www.alphagrips.com/
16:28	ayrnieu	cads, I fell in love with Emacs long after I'd learned all that stuff, after I'd learned for years. I was doing transcription with a lot of mark-up and manual complexity, and wrote an Emacs mode for this.
16:28	WizardofWestmarc	cads: emacs and vim are both like that IME.
16:28	WizardofWestmarc	though vim is more just learning enough of the shortcuts
16:28	hiredman	ugh
16:28	hiredman	mistpaste
16:29	ayrnieu	"Ohhhh, this is why people like Emacs!" For programming in already programmer-friendly languages, it isn't so impressive.
16:29	kotarak	vim vs. emacs is like hg vs. git: doesn't matter any is better the notepad/CVS
16:29	cads	haven't used vim enough, I'm sure they're both 'turing complete' in the sense that they both can achieve ostensibly the same things, but in emacs it feels like you're in a mini operating system, while vim seems a lot more minimalist
16:29	dnolen	cads: http://refcards.com/docs/gildeas/gnu-emacs/emacs-refcard-a4.pdf, and excellent reference card of emacs shortcuts that's well formatted that I used ot use.
16:29	cads	dnolen: thanks! I love cheatsheets
16:29	lisppaste8	hiredman annotated #74521 with "prefix partial application maker for reals and working this time" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74521#4
16:30	kotarak	cads: vim is very consistent in the shortcuts: operator + motion. Always the same just different commands or motions...
16:30	dnolen	cads: np, lots of ugly ones out there, that one is the best IMO.
16:32	cads	kotarak: on thing i've wondered about is what does switching to the dvorak keyboard do to emacs or vim
16:32	hiredman	it makes you re-think your silly choices?
16:32	kotarak	cads: dunno :) Don't use dvorak. But I figure it is painfull..... I would probably remap all commands into the old positions
16:32	cads	I wonder if the workflow would be hurt badly, or whether you could use the old keys still
16:33	cads	hiredman, what does that code you pasted do?
16:33	ayrnieu	it doesn't do anything special. People who navigate in vim one-handed have made up special dvorak modes for it. I never did that and use vim on dvorak as-is. It's comfortable.
16:34	WizardofWestmarc	I could never use dvorak simply because I deal with other people's computers enough I wouldn't get the 100% benefit of it
16:34	ayrnieu	hljk become jpcv
16:34	WizardofWestmarc	and going back and forth between full on keyboard layouts? Ungh
16:34	hiredman	cads: it turns (f � h) into (comp f h) and (?f h) into (partial f h)
16:34	cp2	yeah WizardofWestmarc
16:34	cp2	it gets annoying for me
16:34	cp2	switching between school and home
16:35	cooldude127	hiredman: what does that second one look like? it's a square for me
16:35	hiredman	cooldude127: cirlce with a vertical line through it
16:35	cooldude127	oh
16:35	hiredman	I just picked it off some symbol table in wikipedia
16:35	cooldude127	lol
16:36	cads	hiredman: in the second case, (partial f h), we take a function f which may take more than one argument, and return a function which takes one fewer arguments, and represents f where the first argument has been fixed at h?
16:36	hiredman	yes
16:36	cads	can we curry functions?
16:36	cooldude127	hiredman: my emacs doesn't show all the symbols right
16:36	hiredman	cooldude127: could be your font
16:37	hiredman	cads: that is more or less what partial does
16:37	hiredman	or uncurry
16:37	hiredman	or whatever
16:37	brianh	hiredman is going to turn clojure into apl here soon :)
16:37	kotarak	cads: there is partial - (partial + 2) - and there is #() - #(instance? % thing)
16:37	cooldude127	i've used another font before, not sure why i don't have it. what are you using?
16:38	hiredman	uh, right now? I think putty is set for dejavu sans mono
16:38	cooldude127	hiredman: oh
16:38	brianh	i think that was the one with all the strange symbols...
16:38	cooldude127	brianh: i think you're right
16:38	hiredman	brianh: which is why I picked it
16:39	hiredman	the point of my paste is not so much the pl macro, but the transform function
16:39	hiredman	which is really cool.
16:40	brianh	hiredman: have you used it before?
16:40	hiredman	brianh: used what?
16:41	cooldude127	apl i think
16:41	brianh	apl
16:41	hiredman	No
16:41	cads	could we have a function curry such that (f x y z) <=> ((((curry f) x) y) z)? That is, I'm sure we could curry a function so that it takes one argument and creates a function of one argument and so on till it returns a final value, but in other lisps (lisp-2s, I think), the syntax would not be so pretty
16:42	kotarak	cads: I dont think this is possible. How do you handle (defn foo ([x] ..) ([x y] ...))?
16:42	hiredman	,(partial (partial (partial (fn [x y z] [z y z]) :a) :b) :c)
16:42	clojurebot	#<core$partial__3607$fn__3609 clojure.core$partial__3607$fn__3609@d8fb2b>
16:42	hiredman	oops
16:42	hiredman	one too many partials
16:42	hiredman	,((partial (partial (fn [x y z] [z y z]) :a) :b) :c)
16:42	clojurebot	[:c :b :c]
16:42	hiredman	,((partial (partial (fn [x y z] [x y z]) :a) :b) :c)
16:42	clojurebot	[:a :b :c]
16:42	hiredman	:P
16:43	hiredman	write now there is no way of querying function arity information from an IFn
16:43	hiredman	right
16:43	cads	hmm
16:44	cads	I bet we can still wrap it in a higher order function to get a function's curried form
16:45	ayrnieu	yeah, or the programmer can use partial application directly, more flexibly, and more readably with #(foo %1 a %2)
16:45	cads	something which would take care of how many arguments the function takes and essentially build up a partially applied function
16:45	hiredman	you would have to try the function, and if it throws an exception then use partial
16:45	hiredman	very tedious
16:46	hiredman	(doesn't mean I am not thinking about it)
16:46	ayrnieu	yes, the direct, flexible, and readable solution is very tedious if you're haskell-wanking for its own sake.
16:46	hiredman	ayrnieu: know I think what you are suggesting is fine
16:47	hiredman	writing the solution for what cads and I are talking about would be tedious
16:48	hiredman	try/catch ad infinitum
16:48	cads	haskell wankage aside, a function in working fully curried form is interesting exercise of the language
16:49	hiredman	cads: anyway, with my pl macro you can turn you function application into a partial application just by prefixing it's name with the right glyph
16:50	ayrnieu	no, an interesting exercise would be a memoize function, function combinator utilities, something to make easy hot-code loading, etc.
16:50	hiredman	((?(?(fn [x y z] [x y z]) :a) :b) :c)
16:50	hiredman	,(doc memoize)
16:50	clojurebot	"([f]); Returns a memoized version of a referentially transparent function. The memoized version of the function keeps a cache of the mapping from arguments to results and, when calls with the same arguments are repeated often, has higher performance at the expense of higher memory use."
16:50	cooldude127	yeah i thought we had that
16:50	ayrnieu	function combinators, I have wanted in Clojure, and you can see the basic need for them in that the conj function exists.
16:51	hiredman	yeah
16:51	hiredman	K would be nice
16:51	ayrnieu	and since they're intentional and not automatic, you don't need any special fn-querying feature.
16:52	hiredman	but K is just sort of a reverse do I guess
16:52	ayrnieu	(defn flip ([f] #(f %2 %1)) ([f a]) #(f % a)) ([f a b] #(f b a)))
16:54	hiredman	damn
16:54	hiredman	do is a macro
16:54	ayrnieu	it's a special form, not a macro.
16:55	hiredman	,((comp first list) :a :b)
16:55	clojurebot	:a
16:57	ayrnieu	(let [flibtwist (comb a b c -> b c a)] ...) <- write in a diagram of the odd little thing you want to do in this one case.
16:57	ayrnieu	oh, that's -rot
16:59	ayrnieu	which differs from #(%1 %3 %4 %2) in that it covers the lower-arity cases, as flip does above.
17:16	eyeris	I'm new to ant. Could someone explain to me why target -> java -> classpath -> pathelement puts clojure.jar inside braces as ${clojure.jar}?
17:16	eyeris	I imagine those are variables, but I don't see clojure.jar assigned anywhere in the build.xml file
17:18	ayrnieu	are you sure that <property name="clojure_jar" location="clojure.jar"/> isn't in the file?
17:19	eyeris	I'm positive. Although I am getting an error that clojure.lang.Compile isn't in the CP, so that makes sense :)
17:19	eyeris	I'm just trying to confirm that the <property> tag is what is missing
17:20	ayrnieu	are you talking about clojure-contrib/build.xml ?
17:21	eyeris	No, it's from clojureql's build.xml. I just solved ti.
17:22	kotarak	eyeris: put in clojure.jar=/path/to/your/clojure.jar in a file called local.properties.
17:23	eyeris	kotarak Yep :)
17:24	eyeris	kotarak The latest cql commit fails aot compile.
17:24	kotarak	eyeris: local.properties is ignored by git, so it is not trashed when you do an update
17:24	kotarak	Yes. I noted.
17:24	kotarak	Will push a fix.
17:24	kotarak	Stupid mistake.
17:27	kotarak	eyeris: Uh. No. My mistake again. The broken commit is not yet pushed. The current state compiles. :)
17:32	eyeris	I get java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$defmulti (backend.clj:98)
17:32	kotarak	eyeris: your clone is not up-to-date. The defmulti syntax changed. A fix is in the repo.
17:34	eyeris	Strange. When I run "git log" I see "Bring defmulti up to date with new syntax"
17:34	eyeris	and "git pull" says "Already up-to-date."
17:35	kotarak	Hmmm... Maybe a wrong branch?
17:35	kotarak	Or "old" Clojure?
17:35	eyeris	I just re-cloned it and I get the same results.
17:35	eyeris	Perhaps old clojure.
17:35	eyeris	brb
17:37	arohner	hrm. clojure.main dies when there is an exception in --init, even if you ask for a repl
17:37	arohner	I'd like a repl regardless of the exception, so I can use the repl to figure out why it's dying
17:38	eyeris	That solved it. Silly mistake on my part.
17:38	cads	has anyone written a clojure tutorial that covers lispy programming subjects? Such as how one can use cons lists to represent trees, with a simple function to map over these trees and such? I understand that clojure abstracts over data structures and presents a large library of functions applicable to data structures that export a simple 3 function interface, are there any articles that talk about this?
17:40	hiredman	clojurebot: sicp?
17:40	clojurebot	sicp is http://web.mit.edu/alexmv/6.001/sicp.pdf
17:40	hiredman	clojurebot: sicp?
17:40	clojurebot	sicp is http://web.mit.edu/alexmv/6.001/sicp.pdf
17:41	hiredman	grrr
17:41	hiredman	cads: there is a wiki somewhere with stuff from the first chapter of sicp transliterated into clojure
17:41	cads	that sounds wonderful
17:41	hiredman	http://www.codepoetics.com/wiki/index.php?title=Topics:SICP_in_other_languages:Clojure:Chapter_1
17:42	cads	I was contemplating whether I should try following along in sicp using clojure
17:42	cads	I'm excited about the clojure book coming out
17:42	ayrnieu	the Little Schemer, Learn Scheme in Fixnum Days, Practical Common Lisp, etc. Call out to these the way you would leverage Java libraries.
17:43	ayrnieu	the clojure book is pretty good. You can buy it on PDF and read the betas today.
17:44	dnolen	cads: sicp is fantastic, I recommend it. I got all the way the metacircular evaluator, cool stuff. that was 5 years ago. Nice to come back to a Lisp.
17:44	cads	The little schemer still stands out in my mind from when I read a sample chapter introducing lisp to me, and the first thing they did was define the halting function and show a proof of why it's uncomputable.
17:45	cads	It was so elegant
17:46	arohner	grr. I really wish git could output svn patch files
17:46	ayrnieu	... and this was in the Little Schemer? This book? http://www.amazon.com/Little-Schemer-Daniel-P-Friedman/dp/0262560992
17:46	arohner	I have a patch for clojure in my git working copy, and I can't attach it
17:49	cads	ayrnieu: I think it was, let me see if I can find it again
17:50	cads	what struck me was how useful it was to use lisp in figuring just as one would use math expressions to derive a formula
17:51	eyeris	kotarak With the newest clojure and newest cql I get this exception when running this query: http://pastebin.ca/1323161 (sql/query [ID T_FIRSTNAME T_LASTNAME] p9662 (< ID 2000))
17:52	kotarak	Obviously I'm too stupid to use multimethods. :(
17:53	eyeris	It looks to me like line 343 changes the type to ::Execute
17:54	eyeris	I just don't know if that should be ::Select or not
17:54	kotarak	eyeris: I shouldn't work on software at this time of the day.
17:55	kotarak	eyeris: Will look into it tomorrow. I understand the problem.
17:55	eyeris	Okay
17:55	eyeris	Thanks
17:55	kotarak	I tried to be too clever.
17:55	kotarak	Never a good idea.
17:56	eyeris	"��Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it."
17:56	eyeris	I love that quote :)
17:57	kotarak	Yes. That's true.
17:57	kotarak	:)
17:57	eyeris	Time to clock out.
18:15	technomancy	what kind of project?
18:31	AWizzArd	why does (take 0 (lazy-cat [(println 10)] [(println 20)])) print the 10?
18:32	AWizzArd	,(take 0 (lazy-cat [(print 10)] [(print 20)]))
18:32	clojurebot	10
18:33	AWizzArd	is that a bug in my thinking, or in lazy-cats docstring or in lazy-cat?
18:33	hiredman	I believe this has come up
18:34	AWizzArd	,(doc lazy-cat)
18:34	clojurebot	"([coll] [coll & colls]); Expands to code which yields a lazy sequence of the concatenation of the supplied colls. Each coll expr is not evaluated until it is needed."
18:34	hiredman	AWizzArd: http://w01fe.com/blog/2008/12/clojure-and-lazy-seqs/
18:36	hiredman	AWizzArd: basically, you are running into the reason why nil punning has to go
18:36	AWizzArd	what is nil punning?
18:36	hiredman	(if someseq something somethingelse)
18:37	hiredman	the idea that a seq might be nil
18:37	AWizzArd	so, do you regard this behaviour of lazy-cat as correct or do you see it as a bug?
18:38	ayrnieu	I regard it as poorly documented, at least.
18:38	hiredman	AWizzArd: I think it something that is not correctable with the current behaviour of seqs
18:38	hiredman	ayrnieu: sure
18:41	AWizzArd	thanks for the info hiredman
18:42	hiredman	AWizzArd: it might be a good idea to ping the group, Chouser, or rhickey about adding something to the docstring
18:44	karmazilla	technomancy: a search engine for our maven repository
18:44	cads	Wow, clojure repl + rlwrap is comfy
18:50	karmazilla	technomancy: front-end and searching written in RoR, and indexer/crawler in Clojure
18:51	technomancy	cool
18:52	karmazilla	one day + two people = one search engine :)
18:52	cads	interesting to hear about ruby/clojure interop. Were you using jruby?
18:53	karmazilla	no.. the two were fairly disconnected and merely talking to the same database
18:54	karmazilla	they either end up total cowboy hacks, or devoid of features
18:55	technomancy	yee-haw, pardner.
19:02	ayrnieu	,(let [completions '(foo bar baz)] [(interpose "\n" completions) (interleave completions (repeat "\n"))])
19:02	clojurebot	[(foo "\n" bar "\n" baz) (foo "\n" bar "\n" baz "\n")]
19:08	hiredman	,(doc completetions)
19:08	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: completetions in this context
19:08	hiredman	,(doc completions)
19:08	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: completions in this context
19:09	hiredman	bah
19:09	hiredman	I must be going blind
19:11	ayrnieu	http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Getting_Started , I just switched it to use (System/getenv "HOME") and interleave
19:14	cads	what are you guys doing/
19:15	cads	ah, I just followed that guide to create my completions for rlwrap
19:17	cads	are there plans to create packaged clojure environments for the likes of debian or redhat?
19:17	Chousuke	maybe that should wait until 1.0 :)
19:19	cads	the getting started guide was really helpful, now i've got a fun little clj app with completions and history
19:22	Raynes	I just bought Programming Clojure.
19:22	Raynes	First programming book I've bought in a long time.
19:22	lisppaste8	sa pasted "as" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74624
19:23	hiredman	huh
19:23	hiredman	must be a mischan?
19:25	ayrnieu	#chromium is plausible
19:25	hiredman	nah
19:25	hiredman	#chromium is for the browser right?
19:25	hiredman	this is google appengine
19:26	ayrnieu	#chromium is a python thing and a Google Chrome thing
19:26	hiredman	ok
20:13	technomancy	~time
20:13	clojurebot	multimethods is what separates the boys from the men.
20:13	technomancy	nice
20:39	durka42	why does clojure say "no such namespace Blah" when it means "static class member Blah/foo not found"
20:53	durka42	bit twiddling in clojure seems like quite a jump across abstraction levels
20:53	durka42	then again, i'm sure java has an enterprise xml-based api for what i'm doing, which is prying apart RGB colors
20:59	cads	hehe
21:00	cads	bleh, java
21:01	Chousuke	durka42: well, there is the Color class. :)
21:01	Chousuke	not quite XML though.
21:01	Chousuke	Apparently you can pass it an integer that encodes an RGB value though
21:02	durka42	that is what i have
21:02	durka42	apparently bit shifting is wicked slow
21:02	cads	I have this clojure file that requires two .class files to be present in the classpath, should I export CLASSPATH first to point to those class files, or what's the correct way?
21:03	Chousuke	durka42: well, you're probably doing it with boxed integers?
21:03	durka42	most likely
21:03	durka42	are there unchecked versions of bit-and and bit-shift-right?
21:03	durka42	the integer was passed to me by a hopelessly complicated quicktime library
21:04	cads	bleh, specifically I'm trying to get this code working: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_frm/thread/ce795dd1fb646df1
21:04	Chousuke	what do you need to get out of them? Color has .get{Red, Green, Blue}
21:04	durka42	i mean, the javadoc says the parameters are ints, not Integers
21:05	durka42	maybe autoboxed though, don't know much about that
21:05	durka42	Chousuke: that would do it, but i don't see any reason why unless it's faster than bit-shift-right
21:05	durka42	will test
21:05	Chousuke	durka42: you might want to tell clojure that the integer you get from the quicktime thingy is a native integer and not a boxed one.
21:06	durka42	how would i do that?
21:06	Chousuke	I'm not quite sure, but I think it'd be something like (let [color (int (get-stuff-from-qt))] ...)
21:07	Chousuke	also enable reflection warnings.
21:07	durka42	no, passed from QT to my proxy class
21:08	Chousuke	clojure still autoboxes all ints I think.
21:08	durka42	so, when i have
21:08	durka42	(proxy [RGBImageFilter] []
21:08	durka42	(filterRGB [x y rgb]
21:09	durka42	is there a way to hint at clojure to not box rgb?
21:09	Chousuke	well, one way would be (let [rgb (int rgb)] ...) I think
21:09	durka42	(doc int)
21:09	clojurebot	Coerce to int; arglists ([x])
21:10	Chousuke	that's native int, not Integer :)
21:11	Chousuke	(doc warn-on-reflection)
21:11	clojurebot	When set to true, the compiler will emit warnings when reflection is needed to resolve Java method calls or field accesses. Defaults to false.; arglists
21:11	Chousuke	yay, it's running a new enough version. :p
21:15	durka42	hmm, reflection in a tight loop
21:15	durka42	that's not cool
21:16	durka42	but only once
21:16	durka42	apparently clojure caches the reflection lookup
21:18	durka42	thanks Chousuke
21:35	cads	Chousuke, are you around?
21:42	cads	oh man
21:42	cads	I think I know what's wrong
21:43	cads	is year-old clojure code likely to still work with the latest trunk?
21:43	hiredman	nope
21:44	hiredman	doto change
21:44	hiredman	at least
21:44	cads	aye
21:45	cads	ah well, at least I learned a bit about java classpaths
21:46	cads	there must have been heavy restructuring, important sounding stuff like clojure.lang.Num is no longer named that
21:46	Chouser	became Numbers
21:47	Chouser	A year ago was only shortly after Clojure's initial release. A lot of breaking changes since then, though none terribly deep.
21:48	hiredman	I think a year ago was the first time I wondered by the old clojure website, and continued on to somewhere else
21:48	cads	:)
21:51	cads	I'd like to transliterate this to modern clojure: (defn num [x] (. clojure.lang.Num (from x)))
21:51	cads	Numbers has to from method, it seems
21:51	cads	s/to/no
21:52	hiredman	cads: modern clojure has a num fn you could look at
21:57	cads	hah, fixing that just gives me the next function that cannot be found :)
21:58	cads	aaaah well... I guess I'll play with some code of my own
22:07	persi	hey guys. I'm new to clojure. Is there a way to trace functions like CL TRACE?
22:19	hiredman	clojurebot: trace is (in contrib) http://github.com/kevinoneill/clojure-contrib/commit/43e4168fc8772225c7f749ffb363b0e2a8f7b84f
22:19	clojurebot	Alles klar
22:28	newb12345	is there a way to disable stm in clojure?
22:29	newb12345	i need slightly more guarantee of 'progress' (even though i'm willing to use the gc)
22:30	hiredman	huh?
22:32	newb12345	is there a way to disable stm in clojure?
22:32	newb12345	i want standard, lock based multithreading primitives
22:32	hiredman	I doubt, but you can just java locks
22:32	hiredman	just use
22:32	hiredman	but I am curious as to why
22:32	newb12345	i don't want rollbacks
22:33	newb12345	when code hits a certain point, I want to know that it's really hit there
22:33	hiredman	stm is used if you run a transaction
22:33	newb12345	i have to explicitly start a transaction
22:33	newb12345	to get stm?
22:33	newb12345	otherwise it's not used?
22:33	hiredman	yes
22:33	hiredman	well
22:33	newb12345	i am an idiotic newb
22:34	hiredman	unless you call other code that has stm internally
22:34	newb12345	do many libraries have stm internally?
22:34	hiredman	hmmm
22:35	hiredman	newb12345: why do think stm will not work for you?
22:35	newb12345	i'm at an university
22:35	newb12345	and the very people around me
22:35	newb12345	who are doing reresearch on stm
22:35	newb12345	don't belivee in it
22:35	newb12345	and do it mainly for hte papers
22:35	cads	I've read some stm naysaying papers too
22:36	hiredman	any of them do a paper on clojure?
22:36	ayrnieu	newb, use agents. Dispatches to agents are held until STM commits, and so are not rolled back.
22:36	cads	what strikes me is they have a lot to say about stm being too complex
22:36	cads	but they don't give any alternatives to mutual locks
22:36	newb12345	i'm okay with deadlocking
22:36	newb12345	i.e. i just write code taht doesn't deadlock
22:37	newb12345	what I dislike about stm is that stuff may get randomly rolled back behind my back
22:37	hiredman	uh
22:37	hiredman	no?
22:38	hiredman	if it fails to commit it is rolled back and retried
22:38	newb12345	yeah, this makes it hard to write real time apps
22:39	hiredman	ah
22:39	hiredman	well, transactions are supposed to be side effect free
22:39	hiredman	which most rt apps are not
22:50	newb12345	are there good web frameworks for clojure
22:50	hiredman	there is compojure, webjure and ring
22:50	hiredman	and others?
22:51	hiredman	ring is the simplest
22:51	hiredman	clojurebot: ring
22:51	clojurebot	ring is http://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/tree/master
22:51	hiredman	clojurebot: compojure
22:51	clojurebot	compojure is http://github.com/weavejester/compojure/tree/master
22:51	hiredman	clojurebot: webjure
22:51	clojurebot	webjure is http://code.google.com/p/webjure/
23:05	cp2	can someone explain to me what % does/how it works?
23:08	mfredrickson	cp2: it is an implied argument in a function literal
23:08	mfredrickson	think of #(+ % %) as (fn [x] (+ x x))
23:09	cp2	yeah, i read that on the /reader page and didnt quite get it, but the anonymous functions section of the concepts article on wikibooks cleared it up
23:09	cp2	and ye, makes sense now
23:09	mfredrickson	you can have multiple implied arguments: #(+ %1 %2) = (fn [x y] ) (+ x y))
23:09	cp2	ye i get it now
23:10	mfredrickson	I admit there are a few reader macros (I'm looking at you meta-data!) that I always am surprised by
23:10	cp2	heh
23:10	cp2	im just a bit confused in general
23:10	cp2	functional programming isnt something im used to
23:10	cp2	im learning...albeit slowly
23:10	mfredrickson	yup. Lisp can throw a lot at you at once
23:11	ayrnieu	is there already a (defn thru [f] (fn [s & args] (apply f s args) s)) ? ((thru print) "hello") => "hello"
23:12	mfredrickson	,(doc partial)
23:12	clojurebot	"([f arg1] [f arg1 arg2] [f arg1 arg2 arg3] [f arg1 arg2 arg3 & more]); Takes a function f and fewer than the normal arguments to f, and returns a fn that takes a variable number of additional args. When called, the returned function calls f with args + additional args."
23:13	ayrnieu	that isn't what I want, if you meant it in answer.
23:14	mfredrickson	ayrnieu: i see. you need something for side-effects, yes?
23:15	mfredrickson	i didn't see that thru's function returned s
23:15	hiredman
23:15	ayrnieu	I've shown you exactly what I want; I was just asking if it already exists. It's useful for side-effects on agents, yes.
23:16	ayrnieu	as in: (add-watcher broadcast-message :send (agent out) (thru report))
23:20	Cark	nice one
23:20	Cark	(thru print "hello") would be event better
23:21	ayrnieu	well, report takes out (or a socket, etc.) as its first argument.
23:23	Cark	ah thus the exta parenthesis i see
23:33	cads	,(source partial)
23:33	clojurebot	Source not found
23:33	cads	fap.
23:43	Cark	(defn thru [f & args] (fn [s & more-args] (apply f (concat args [s] more-args)) s))
23:43	Cark	?
23:43	Cark	it's getting ugly though
23:44	ayrnieu	http://gist.github.com/55435 is interesting. Sometimes I'll get 2 reports until I broadcast again -- when I get 8. This may not be a problem in a real system.
23:47	ayrnieu	you can remove the reset-to-nil line to see that the watchers don't trigger when you broadcast the same message. Again, a real system could stamp the messages.