#clojure – 2009-01-27

2009-01-27

01:31	Cark	clojurebot: log?
01:31	clojurebot	logs is http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
03:55	AWizzArd	Moin
03:55	AWizzArd	clojurebot: max people
03:55	clojurebot	max people is 129
04:01	ecret	(ns app.hello (:gen-class)) (defn -main [& args] (println "application works")) I am trying to make a class in clojure. The file is hello and its in the app folder but I am unsure of how to tell clojure to start in the folder before the app folder. When I try to compile it gives me an error.
04:02	ecret	so my question is, how do I check and set the project folder where it looks for those classes?
04:12	ayrnieu	it's behaving oddly for me. I can (require 'app.hello) successfully, but (compile 'app.hello) yields java.io.IOException: No such file or directory (hello.clj:1) , which is not the "java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate app/hello__init.class or app/hello.clj on classpath: (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)" that you get when the file is legitimately not there.
04:13	ecret	yeah same
04:13	ecret	i need to know where to put the app/hello.clj file
04:14	ecret	or how to set the environment to the master path or at least check what it currently is
04:21	AWizzArd	And how do you try to compile?
04:22	AWizzArd	Did you set the right compile-path? As in: (binding [compile-path "/home/ecret/mystuff/"] (compile 'Hello))
04:22	ayrnieu	the exception is thrown by clojure.lang.Compiler.writeClassFile , calling java.io.File.createNewFile ; probably it's trying to create the class files in a directory that you're expected to have set up
04:23	ecret	(compile 'app.hello)
04:23	AWizzArd	,compile-path
04:23	AWizzArd	,(print compile-path)
04:23	ecret	AWizzArd: i did not. Do I do this in clojure?
04:23	clojurebot	nil
04:23	ayrnieu	AWizzArd, http://clojure.org/compilation should emphasize this
04:23	AWizzArd	Yes, check what is in compile-path
04:24	ecret	,(print compile-path) returns: classes
04:24	clojurebot	nil
04:24	AWizzArd	1-2 days after compilation was introduced to Clojure I also had the problem that I couldn't compile my .clj files, because I did not point to the directory into which the corresponding .class files should go to.
04:25	AWizzArd	well, the comma is not needed in Clojure, it is just for the clojurebot in this channel, to run my forms.
04:26	AWizzArd	ecret: try to set compile-path with (binding ..) to a path that is in your classpath.
04:29	ecret	AWizzArd: I did (binding [compile-path "/home/eli/nlp/csphinx/"] (compile 'junk.hello)) my path to the file is /home/eli/nlp/csphinx/junk/hello.clj, still doesnt work
04:30	ecret	is that what I should of done?
04:31	ecret	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate junk/hello__init.class or junk/hello.clj on classpath: (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
04:31	ecret	[Thrown class clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException]
04:31	ayrnieu	http://paste.lisp.org/display/74340
04:31	ayrnieu	ecret, you get that because it tries to load the class that it's just created, and compile-path isn't in your CLASSPATH
04:37	AWizzArd	ecret: do (System/getProperty "java.class.path") in your repl
04:38	ecret	tried that ,heres a jar file : /home/eli/clojure/classpaths/RM1_8gau_13dCep_16k_40mel_130Hz_6800Hz.jar
04:38	ecret	i copy pasted the folder into /home/eli/clojure/classpaths/csphinx/junk/hello.clj
04:40	AWizzArd	You should have /home/eli/clojure/classes/ in your CP (create that dir if it does not exist yet), and /home/eli/nlp/csphinx/ as well in CP.
04:40	AWizzArd	Then you can bind the compile-path to the .../classes/ dir and compile 'junk.hellp
04:40	AWizzArd	hello even
04:40	ecret	in my .emacs file, swank-clojure-extra-classpaths (directory-files (concat concourse-dir "clojure/classpaths/"
04:42	AWizzArd	Did you decide into which directory the .class files should go that result from compiling .clj files?
04:42	AWizzArd	This could be for example /home/eli/clojure/classes/
04:43	AWizzArd	As soon you decided which dir will be the target, put that into your classpath (for example by adding it to your swank-clojure-extra-classpaths).
04:44	AWizzArd	Now inside a possibly completely different directory create a subdir "junk". Into that put your hello.clj which begins with (ns 'junk.hello ...)
04:45	AWizzArd	And put the dir in which you created junk also into your CP. Then you can compile.
04:49	ecret	AWizzArd: i am hesitant to change my .emacs file since I had a rough time getting it to work in the first place with the jar classpaths. How would I change swank-clojure-extra-classpaths (directory-files (concat concourse-dir "clojure/classpaths/") t ".jar$") to have the classes folder?
04:50	AWizzArd	make a copy of your .emacs file to which you could go back any time
04:55	AWizzArd	ecret: here is an example of how your .emacs file could begin: http://nopaste.ch/9869fa857c1cbef.html
04:58	ecret	AWizzArd,ayrnieu thanks for the help.
06:00	Lau_of_DK	Gents, regex question
06:00	Lau_of_DK	(re-find #"\b[Author: +]\b.*" "Author: Jack Daniels <jd@drink.org>")
06:00	Lau_of_DK	I want to extract only "Jack Daniels <jd@drink.org>" How do I do ?
06:04	Lau_of_DK	(re-find #"\b[Author: ]\b+.*" "Author: Jack Daniels <jd@drink.org>")
06:04	Lau_of_DK	" Daniels <jd@drink.org>"
06:04	Lau_of_DK	This is a little closer, but it misses Jack
06:17	holly	(re-find #"(Author:\s+)(.*)" "Author: Jack Daniels <jd@drink.org>")
06:17	holly	3rd element is the desired one...
06:20	holly	With (re-find #"(?>Author:\s+)(.*)" "Author: Jack Daniels <jd@drink.org>") it's the second...
06:21	rfgpfeiffer	(re-matches #"Author:\s+(.*)$" "Author: Jack Daniels <jd@drink.org>")
06:24	cgrand	holly: what's the difference between ?: and ?>
06:37	holly	That I have only just learned about ?> but not yet about ?:
06:37	holly	http://www.regular-expressions.info/atomic.html is what I looked at
06:40	holly	http://www.regular-expressions.info/brackets.html seems to indicate that ?: does the same as ?>
06:42	holly	Hmmm. Not quite maybe -- ?> seems to be like the cut from Prolog -- throws away all backtracking info from withing that group. For this regecp that shouldn't make a difference -- we want the greedy behaviour.
06:42	holly	Compare (re-matches #"(?>Author:\s+)( .)" "Author: Jack Daniels <jd@drink.org>") with (re-matches #"(?:Author:\s+)( .)" "Author: Jack Daniels <jd@drink.org>")
06:43	holly	(note that now we want to match one space in front of "Jack" -- with ?> we don't find this as it first greedily matched all spaces and then couldn't backtrack
06:44	cgrand	holly: thanks I didn't know of ?> and the javadoc for Pattern left me nonplussed
06:46	holly	:-) There are obviously advantages to being a Java newbie and not knowing about javado
06:46	cgrand	I understand now ?> is as greedy as possible even if it causes the rest of the regex to fail: you can't backtrack -- that's what they meant by "independent"
06:48	holly	You cannot backtrack into that group -- it can still backtrack to before that group
06:51	cgrand	indeed, thanks for the clarification!
06:54	Lau_of_DK	holly, I was out to lunch, thanks alot for helping out
06:55	holly	NP -- glad I can add something here instead of just lurking
06:57	Lau_of_DK	It was a big help - I fail at regex almost every time :\|
07:21	rfgpfeiffer	(comp) should be identity
07:21	rfgpfeiffer	,((comp) 3)
07:21	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
07:25	AWizzArd	no, but it could perhaps throw an exception instead
07:30	rfgpfeiffer	it would be consistent with + and *
07:34	AWizzArd	Those are defined as such
07:34	AWizzArd	empty sum and multiplication
07:36	cgrand	in the same vein (-> x) should expand to x
07:41	AWizzArd	But what should (->) do? ;-)
07:44	cgrand	thinking more about it: identity is only the neutral element for unary functions not for all function -- comp is indeed irregular: its rightmost arg can be any function but other args have to be unary functions
07:46	AWizzArd	I still would like to have the functional equivalent to ->, namely (defn pipe [& fs] (apply comp (reverse fs)))
07:47	AWizzArd	,(defn pipe [& fs] (apply comp (reverse fs)))
07:47	clojurebot	DENIED
07:47	rfgpfeiffer	fixed versions: http://gist.github.com/53325
07:49	rfgpfeiffer	cgrand: I have a composition function for n-ary fns: http://gist.github.com/51768 before-advice
10:54	scottj	What is an xrel and a rel?
10:54	Chouser	scottj: where are you seeing those?
10:55	scottj	Chouser: clojure.set/index
10:56	scottj	That only references xrel, but the function above it, rename, references both
11:10	cgrand	scottj: it seems that a rel is a set of key-values (N:N) while xrel is a map (N:1)
11:11	cgrand	cgrand: forget what I said
11:12	Chouser	suddenly
12:09	knapr	anyone with an example of a gui using JFileChooser?
12:11	jwinter	This has a JFileChooser (I just saw it today): http://github.com/ynd/mona-clojure/blob/master/mona-clojure.clj
12:16	cgrand	wow: you can try clj libs without even downloading them!
12:16	cgrand	(add-classpath "http://github.com/Lau-of-DK/clojureql/raw/master/src/")
12:16	cgrand	(require '[dk.bestinclass.clojureql :as ql])
12:16	Chouser	ah, sweet.
12:17	rhickey	that's neat
12:17	cgrand	chouser: if there is a proper directory structure (didn't work with textjure)
12:18	cooldude127	that's awesome!
12:18	Chouser	that also means you get the latest version each time your run. ...I hope you trust that URL.
12:18	Chouser	cgrand: yeah, textjure is just a "script", not a lib.
12:18	rhickey	Chouser: well, he'd never put add-classpath in his app, right?
12:19	danlarkin	wow that is a really really neat trick
12:19	Chouser	hm, can't use URLs on the -cp command line, I guess.
12:19	knapr	lol thats supersweet
12:22	cgrand	If you are unlucky I guess you could get an inconsistent snapshot
12:48	knapr	what is textjure?
12:48	drewr	knapr: Clojmacs.
12:51	danlarkin	shame that validator-fns are supposed to be side effect free
12:51	danlarkin	I'd feel bad giving mine side effects
12:51	knapr	sun.awt.shell.Win32ShellFolder2 cannot be cast to java.lang.String
12:51	danlarkin	so I must find a different way
12:53	knapr	clojmacs? you mean clojure-mode for emacs?
13:01	knapr	are GUIs naturally statefula nd using globals is normal? or is that just becuas eim using Swing which anturally is a OO-oriented framework?
13:01	knapr	i used Tkinter with python and before seem to force the use of globals
13:06	Chouser	knapr: GUIs are indeed stateful, but don't necessarily need globals.
13:06	cooldude127	knapr: look at some of the haskell gui libraries to see how they are trying to unstateful guis
13:06	cooldude127	it's hard to wrap your head around, i know i don't get it
13:07	Chouser	i guess you can try to pretend it's not stateful, but the thing you're looking at on the screen sure seems like it's a "state"
13:08	cooldude127	it is, but it can be represented functionally, it's just really confusing
13:09	danlarkin	it's a gui monad! boggle
13:09	cooldude127	yeah maybe it would have made more sense if i could actually understand macros
13:09	cooldude127	s/macros/monads
13:11	nymsy	hello
13:11	danlarkin	nymsy: hello!
13:11	cooldude127	nymsy: hi
13:14	knapr	damn collision betwen paths, FileChooser uses \ and I use / , why is windows so stupid?
13:17	nymsy	so, I might loose connection... I'm in afghanistan, using a nokia phone for internet.. over a... maybe a 5 kbps link (little k)
13:18	nymsy	Thought I'd swing through irc and see how it was... webpages take forev' but this seems to work decent
13:18	Chouser	nymsy: interesting!
13:19	nymsy	Chouser: yea, makes for some interesting stress testing
13:20	noidi	a newbie question: what's the difference between a list and a vector? after some googling I gather that the former's a linked list while the latter is an array of references...
13:20	nymsy	So, I've been in transit for about 2 weeks, on my way out for a deployment in A-stan, and I've been working on a clojure app, to kill time while I wait
13:21	Chouser	noidi: there are a couple differences. lists grow on the left, vectors grow on the right (when you conj)
13:21	hiredman	vectors are indexed (like an array)
13:21	hiredman	,([:a :b :c] 1)
13:21	clojurebot	:b
13:22	hiredman	,(get [:a :b :c] 1)
13:22	clojurebot	:b
13:22	Chouser	noidi: vectors provide constant-time random access to any element (by index) while lists can only be scanned in linear time
13:22	WizardofWestmarc	use vector when you want ~0(1) access time to any element in the list.
13:22	hiredman	,((list :a :b :c) 0)
13:22	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
13:22	hiredman	:(
13:22	noidi	thanks!
13:23	nymsy	So, I'm going to go off and open up my code and get back here and ask some of the questions I've been burning to ask for 2 weeks... :)
13:23	Chouser	nymsy: and you have it running on your phone, right?
13:27	cooldude127	wow lists really don't implement IFn?
13:27	cooldude127	i guess that's to encourage you to use vectors for those situations
13:27	hiredman	yes
13:30	noidi	,"testing"
13:30	noidi	darn :)
13:30	nymsy	Chouser: clojure or the internet?
13:30	noidi	,([:a :b :c] 1)
13:30	clojurebot	:b
13:30	Chouser	noidi: clojurebot ignores you unless there are parens
13:30	noidi	,(identity "testing")
13:30	clojurebot	"testing"
13:30	Chouser	nymsy: your clojure app runs on your phone, right? In fact, it's your IRC client? ;-)
13:30	noidi	cool :)
13:34	nymsy	heheh.. actually.. you could say I'm writing a simplified irc app
13:34	nymsy	but no, this runs on my computer.. I'm tethering.
13:44	nymsy	First question: what are the ways to get a value from a set?
13:45	nymsy	I saw select
13:46	Chouser	you can use 'get' or just treat the set as a fn.
13:46	Chouser	,(#{:a :b :c} :b)
13:46	clojurebot	:b
13:46	Chouser	,(#{:a :b :c} :d)
13:46	clojurebot	nil
13:46	nymsy	the comma.. is that clojure?
13:47	Chouser	no, that's clojurebot
13:47	durka42	commas are whitespace
13:47	nymsy	ah
13:47	Chouser	, is whitespace in clojure
13:47	durka42	clojurebot evalutes lines beginning with commas
13:47	nymsy	rgr
13:47	Chouser	,#{:a,:b,:c}
13:47	Chouser	,(prn #{:a,:b,:c})
13:47	clojurebot	#{:a :b :c}
13:48	nymsy	yes, but why would I want to return :b from #{:a :b :c} if I already have :b? It's nice to know that it's there and all...
13:49	nymsy	I guess I'm wanting set to be more like a map
13:49	nymsy	Whereas, map already acts a little like a set, with unique keys
13:49	Chouser	nymsy: perhaps I misunderstood your question. A set contains only "keys" if you will, no values. Or the keys are the values.
13:49	danlarkin	gnuvince: s/language/state machine/
13:50	nymsy	Chouser: right
13:50	noidi	why can't you use a map then?
13:51	nymsy	let me think of an example of what I'm trying to do
13:51	noidi	,({:key :value} :key)
13:51	clojurebot	:value
13:51	nymsy	by the way, does clojurebot have cycle turned off? ;)
13:52	durka42	you mean infinite loops?
13:52	Chouser	,(take 7 (cycle [:chicken :egg]))
13:52	clojurebot	(:chicken :egg :chicken :egg :chicken :egg :chicken)
13:53	Chouser	he's got some protection against attempts at evilness.
13:54	nymsy	aye... so I've got a (def clients (ref #{}))
13:54	nymsy	for my irc like chat program
13:55	nymsy	(this is, by the way, based off of somebody's code from the list)
13:56	nymsy	and client is a (defstruct client-t :socket :output :reader :nick :uid :last-action-time)
13:57	Chouser	you want to be able to find the client struct from a given nick
13:57	Chouser	?
13:58	nymsy	yes, but nicks can change, so each :nick starts as a (agent "anonymous")
13:58	nymsy	so I have to do derefing while searching the #{}
13:58	Chouser	yeah
13:59	knapr	anyone good with Java, swing and threads? When I play an mp3 it eats up all the "authority" of the app. apparently im messing with main event dispatch threa dor something
13:59	Chouser	it seems likely to me that the nicks should be refs instead of agents
14:01	nymsy	Chouser: this is one area I'm lost in.. knowing when to use each of the mutability tools
14:01	nymsy	I've read the differences, but I don't yet understand what exactly is being described
14:02	Chouser	I don't have an extremely firm grasp on it myself...
14:02	nymsy	I've dealt a little with locking in Java, but I'm still a noob
14:03	nymsy	what pastebin do you guys use?
14:03	Chouser	but agents for for values that are independant of each other. The fact that the nicks are in a collection that is itself in a ref suggests to me that the clients collection and the nick values themselves need to be coordinated with each other.
14:03	durka42	clojurebot: paste?
14:03	clojurebot	lisppaste8, url
14:03	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
14:03	Chouser	"agents are for values"...
14:04	Chouser	the only coordinated reference type is the ref.
14:04	nymsy	Ok, so a collection of refs inside of a ref is normal?
14:05	Chouser	nymsy: it can be, though you could just have the top-level ref and swap out the whole collection when you update a nick
14:08	nymsy	I'm afraid that solution might get heavy, but I'm not sure if clojure optimizes for that... doesn't that copy all the clients and their sockets, readers, writers, etc?
14:08	nymsy	if the server became big, how big would that operation become?
14:09	Chouser	no, it doesn't. clojure collections share as much data as they can with earlier versions of themselves
14:09	nymsy	so a ref-set is as efficient as, say, an assoc inside of a ref?
14:09	nymsy	(erm, on a ref inside the ref)
14:11	Lau_of_DK	Good evening all
14:11	nymsy	ok, watch out.. here comes some ugly code
14:12	lisppaste8	nymsy pasted "blah.clj" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74360
14:13	nymsy	most of these functions are in transition, so they're ugly
14:13	nymsy	The arity in most is accommodating either access to global state, or more pure function
14:14	nymsy	One of my problems is the the filter-for and its sister function filt-for-deref.. cause I couldn't figure out how to get filter-for to do both
14:15	Chouser	I think that changing a item in a collection inside another collection inside a ref would be slower than if you had another ref at the lowest level, but only by a constant factor of the depth.
14:16	Chouser	that is, the collections themselves could get many times larger without either solution becoming a whole lot slower.
14:17	nymsy	ok
14:17	noidi	is anyone else here using VimClojure?
14:18	Chouser	(filter-for #(deref (:nick %)) "joe" clients)
14:19	nymsy	What if the value I'm looking for isnt a ref?
14:20	Chouser	then leave out the 'deref' part as you already do.
14:21	nymsy	I want a general function to dip down into the nested collection I've created and sometimes grab the value of a normal value and sometimes grab the derefed value of a ref value
14:21	Chousuke	(doc get-in=)
14:21	clojurebot	excusez-moi
14:22	Chousuke	(doc get-in)
14:22	clojurebot	returns the value in a nested associative structure, where ks is a sequence of keys; arglists ([m ks])
14:22	nymsy	Chousuke: works for maps inside of sets?
14:22	Chouser	oh. Well, I suppose you could add a phrase to filter-for: (if (instance? clojure.lang.IRef x) @x x)
14:23	Chousuke	nymsy: hm, I don't think so.
14:23	Chousuke	nymsy: since to get the map, you need to have the map already
14:23	Chousuke	,(get-in {:m [:a :b {:c :d}]} [:m 2 :c])
14:23	clojurebot	:d
14:23	Chouser	it probably does work on sets, but since you'd have to supply the whole value you're looking for, it would help much.
14:25	nymsy	if i'm looking for one nick in all the clients in a ref, I've been using for to go through every item in the set
14:25	nymsy	so I could get-in on the for
14:25	Chousuke	maybe you should index the clients by their nickname? :/
14:25	Chousuke	a map of nicks to the client data
14:26	Chouser	but he also sometimes looks them up by :uid, and the :nick can change.
14:26	Chousuke	hmm
14:26	nymsy	right, sometimes
14:26	Chouser	sets of maps may not be too terrible -- I can't quite decide what would do better.
14:27	nymsy	I guess get-in with for is useless, since I've already dug down
14:27	Chouser	it might make sense to maintain two maps -- one from uid to client-struct, the other from nick to client-struct.
14:27	Chouser	it would make lookups faster and more convenient
14:27	Chouser	presumably uids don't change, so that'd be fine.
14:28	nymsy	would each collection point to the same set of objects?
14:28	Chouser	when you update a nick, though, you've have to fix up both maps. That might still be easier than what you're doing.
14:28	Chousuke	if the client struct is wrapped in a ref, keeping them in sync would be easy too
14:28	Chouser	nymsy: either that, or the uid could be the "canonical" map, and you could have a separate map of nick to uid
14:29	Chousuke	hm, that sounds better.
14:29	Chousuke	could have multiple nicknames that way, too :P
14:29	nymsy	aye
14:29	nymsy	how would this seperate map work?
14:30	Chousuke	just (def nick-to-uid (ref {}))? :)
14:30	Chouser	I guess it'd be another global. clients would now be a map instead of a set, and you'd also have nicks which would look like {"joe" 123, "bob" 456}
14:30	Chouser	right, in a ref.
14:32	nymsy	So, to send bob a message, (nicks "bob") > 9833498 and then (send-message-to 9833498 "msg")
14:32	nymsy	kinda deal
14:33	Chouser	right
14:33	nymsy	and maps ensure that there can only be one "bob" in nicks and only one uid in uids
14:34	Chouser	still faster and more convenient than walking the set of all clients looking for a "bob"
14:34	nymsy	true
14:36	nymsy	I wonder if one could do a two-key-one-value map, where it was like {key-nick key-uid value, &}
14:36	durka42	i mean, you could emulate that with two maps, or a list of triplets
14:37	Chouser	well, you can put the nick and uid in a vector, and use the vector as the key. ...but then you'd have to know both to look up anything.
14:37	nymsy	with performance comparable by a constant factor to normal maps...
14:38	nymsy	what about {(or this that) value}
14:39	Chouser	you could put the value in there twice: {key-nick value key-uid value}
14:39	nymsy	or {#(or (= % this) (= % that)) value}
14:40	durka42	,(first (filter #(or (= "bob" %1) (= "bob" %2)) {["alex" 134] :alex, ["bob" 532] :bob, ["joe 1395876] :joe}))
14:40	clojurebot	Eval-in-box threw an exception:EOF while reading string
14:40	durka42	,(first (filter #(or (= "bob" %1) (= "bob" %2)) {["alex" 134] :alex, ["bob" 532] :bob, ["joe" 1395876] :joe}))
14:40	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: sandbox$eval--802$fn
14:40	durka42	whoops
14:40	durka42	,(first (filter #(or (= "bob" %) (= "bob" %)) {["alex" 134] :alex, ["bob" 532] :bob, ["joe" 1395876] :joe}))
14:40	clojurebot	nil
14:40	durka42	i should test these things
14:40	durka42	,(first (filter #(or (= "bob" (first %)) (= "bob" (second %))) {["alex" 134] :alex, ["bob" 532] :bob, ["joe" 1395876] :joe}))
14:40	clojurebot	nil
14:40	Chouser	yes. you should. :-)
14:41	nymsy	as freenode crashes
14:41	durka42	,(second (first (filter #(or (= "bob" (first (first %))) (= "bob" (second (first %)))) {["alex" 134] :alex, ["bob" 532] :bob, ["joe" 1395876] :joe})))
14:41	clojurebot	:bob
14:42	durka42	,(second (first (filter #(or (= 134 (first (first %))) (= "bob" (second (first %)))) {["alex" 134] :alex, ["bob" 532] :bob, ["joe" 1395876] :joe})))
14:42	clojurebot	nil
14:42	durka42	never mind
14:42	durka42	that got way too unwieldy
14:42	durka42	don't do that
14:44	nymsy	,({#(or (= % "bob") (= % 111)) "socket"} "bob")
14:44	clojurebot	nil
14:44	nymsy	hmm
14:44	Chouser	yeah, that's not going to work.
14:44	hiredman	well when data structures get unweidly, you build new functions to wield them
14:45	Chouser	,({"bob" "socket" 111 "socket"} "bob")
14:45	clojurebot	"socket"
14:45	Chouser	just as good, and actually works.
14:45	nymsy	rgr
14:45	Chouser	:-)
14:45	nymsy	is there a way to make both "socket"s point to the same socket?
14:46	nymsy	so as to mitigate doubling the actual size in memory?
14:46	Chousuke	nymsy: just bind it to a name first and use that name as the value.
14:46	Chousuke	instead of a literal
14:46	WizardofWestmarc	actually might the JVM be smart enough to not double use literals?
14:46	Chousuke	probably, but that's not guaranteed.
14:46	WizardofWestmarc	should be possible to find out
14:47	nymsy	they won't be literals in practice
14:47	nymsy	if by literals you mean those strings
14:47	WizardofWestmarc	right
14:47	Chouser	if you do (assoc client "bob" socket 111 socket), they'll both point to the same socket object
14:47	Chouser	it's not going to copy it.
14:47	nymsy	they'll be complicated structs
14:47	Chousuke	nymsy: even better then: they won't be copied.
14:47	Chousuke	no assignment in java ever copies anything; except primitives.
14:48	WizardofWestmarc	Chouser: what about :a "bob" :b "bob"?
14:48	WizardofWestmarc	does bob show up twice in memory?
14:48	Chousuke	WizardofWestmarc: that's probably an implementation detail
14:48	nymsy	hmm
14:48	WizardofWestmarc	it could be specified in the jvm specification
14:48	Chouser	,(apply identical? (map val {:a "bob" :b "bob"}))
14:48	clojurebot	true
14:48	WizardofWestmarc	so that all VMs would require it
14:49	Chouser	but I think Clojure is providing that and doesn't guarantee it.
14:49	nymsy	so where might this scheme cause a hicup?
14:49	Chouser	,(apply identical? (map val {:a (String. "bob") :b "bob"}))
14:49	clojurebot	false
14:49	hiredman	,(apply identical? (map val {:a (Object.) :b (Object .)})
14:49	clojurebot	Eval-in-box threw an exception:EOF while reading
14:49	hiredman	,(apply identical? (map val {:a (Object.) :b (Object .)}))
14:49	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Expecting var, but Object is mapped to class java.lang.Object
14:49	hiredman	bah
14:50	Chousuke	the answer is going to be false :p
14:50	hiredman	strings are sort of magic
14:50	hiredman	yeah
14:50	Chouser	nymsy: if you want to change something in a socket struct, you'll have to do that double-assoc again.
14:50	Chousuke	strings are guaranteed to be immutable so the JVM can optimise literals to be the same object.
14:51	Chouser	Chousuke: I think it's Clojure that's deciding to intern the strings. I don't think it's always done that.
14:51	hiredman	clojurebot: max people?
14:51	clojurebot	max people is 129
14:52	Chouser	nymsy: while if you had nicks that only pointed to uids, then you'd only have to update clients for changes to client struct.
14:52	Chousuke	unless you use refs; like (def a (ref {:a 1})) (def b a), (dosync (commute a assoc :b 1)) @b ; -> {:a 1 :b 1}
14:52	nymsy	Ok, better than socket, lets say (assoc clients "bob" client-struct-1 111 client-struct-1)
14:53	Chouser	sorry, I meant "client struct" not "socket struct"
14:54	nymsy	oughtn't, if I make changes to client-struct-1, elsewhere, "bob" and 111 both point to the new client-struct-1 that reflects those changes?
14:54	Chousuke	nymsy: no.
14:54	Chouser	but if client-struct-1 is just a struct (and not a ref as Chousuke is suggesting) you can't actually change it. you can only make a new one based on the old one
14:54	nymsy	hmm.. associng "bob" to a new value will leave the old value attached to 111
14:55	Chouser	...in which case you have to put that new struct back into the map in all the appropriate places.
14:55	Chouser	nymsy: right.
14:55	Chousuke	nymsy: that's exactly how it's supposed to be.
14:55	nymsy	so (assoc client "bob" struct-ref 111 struct-ref)
14:56	Chousuke	nymsy: that might work.
14:56	hiredman	so you write a double-assoc fn
14:56	Chousuke	but I'd rather do two separate maps.
14:56	Chousuke	one with nicks to ids and one with id -> struct
14:56	Chousuke	then, whenever I want to "modify" a struct, I actually just do assoc-in on the id->struct map
14:57	Chousuke	yielding a new id->struct map
14:57	hiredman	is there a reason why you need both? why not have nick or uid as part of the struct?
14:57	hiredman	and the other as the key?
14:57	Chousuke	hiredman: he needs to look them up using either.
14:57	hiredman	:(
14:58	hiredman	sounds like two maps then
14:58	nymsy	I could look them up as uids most of the time, and then scan the whole think when nicks are needed, or vice versa, which is what I'm doing now
14:59	Chousuke	having two maps is easier IMO :/
14:59	Chouser	do you ever need to go from uid to nick?
14:59	nymsy	When updating nick
14:59	Chouser	or only from (nick or uid) to struct
14:59	Chousuke	but having the nick and UID in the same map as keys pointing to a struct is wrong, IMO.
15:00	Chousuke	because then you need to update both
15:00	Chousuke	or use refs, but that's a bit ugly too
15:00	hiredman	,(let [x (ref :somestruct)] [{111 x} {"bob" x}])
15:00	clojurebot	[{111 #<Ref clojure.lang.Ref@8730b8>} {"bob" #<Ref clojure.lang.Ref@8730b8>}]
15:01	Chousuke	yeah, that would work, but is rather ugly.
15:01	hiredman	Chousuke: if you don't println it, it won't see it :P
15:01	nymsy	Whys it ugly? I think it's pretty
15:01	Chousuke	you'll have lots of refs though :/
15:04	nymsy	here's another aspect of the program that needs consideration... a) it's going to be p2p.. each user will have server code, which synchronizes with all other user's servers, and distributes messages.. b) I still have to implement rooms
15:04	hiredman	!
15:05	nymsy	a server can have more than one client hanging off of it, but the normal use case will be one gui client connected to the server code locally
15:05	nymsy	yes! :)
15:05	nymsy	so thats another ref for rooms
15:05	nymsy	and another for servers
15:07	nymsy	so how to manage nicks and uids is important
15:08	nymsy	do I map uids to rooms and servers, or nicks? probably uids
15:14	fffej	If I have two functions A and B that both call each other, how should I declare them in a CLJ file such that I don't get a "unable to resolve symbol" error when I compile them?
15:14	Chouser	(doc declare)
15:14	clojurebot	defs the supplied var names with no bindings, useful for making forward declarations.; arglists ([& names])
15:14	fffej	thanks!
15:14	nymsy	hmm. typo in the message struct. :dest and :room are the same. anyway, if a client sends text into a room, the client code puts the room name in :dest/:room. Then the server does a doseq on the room collection with .println to the :output of each
15:19	nymsy	Or I could add a :rooms key to the client struct
15:19	hiredman	it might be easiest to have rooms as a special type of user
15:20	Chouser	so then a msg to a room would require walking the list of all clients, checking each to see if their in the target room?
15:20	nymsy	and pass clients to broadcast-to-room [clients msg]
15:20	hiredman	so when a user sends to a :room user, it gets sent to all the other users that are talking to that room
15:20	WizardofWestmarc	that or keep an updated list of users by room
15:21	WizardofWestmarc	so when they move room remove from old room add to the new room
15:22	nymsy	WizardofWestmarc: I'm thinking the server won't deal with context switching between rooms, only the client rendering code will, if you know what I mean
15:22	WizardofWestmarc	then just write a macro to both change the structure's room # and update the room list's info
15:22	WizardofWestmarc	eh
15:22	WizardofWestmarc	if you want to send info to specific rooms from the server I would keep that info server side as well
15:23	nymsy	well, a user can be in many rooms
15:23	cooldude127	i thought clojure-mode was fixed to work for imenu stuff, but i only get one symbol, a defstruct (because it's also used in CL)
15:23	WizardofWestmarc	ah
15:23	WizardofWestmarc	still
15:23	WizardofWestmarc	then just remove the always remove constraint
15:23	WizardofWestmarc	but I'd STILL keep a hash of rooms that contain a list of users in that room
15:24	hiredman	nymsy: someone, technomancy?, is doing some kind of clojure tutorial writing a muc, which might be interesting to look at
15:24	nymsy	right, thats the other option
15:24	nymsy	hiredman: wilco
15:25	WizardofWestmarc	yeah Technomancy's doing it
15:25	WizardofWestmarc	it's in his github acct
15:25	hiredman	orly
15:25	cooldude127	ya rly
15:25	cooldude127	where is that guy anyway?
15:26	hiredman	ah http://github.com/technomancy/mire/tree/master
15:26	nymsy	that other option: a map of rooms to lists of users.. a map of servers to lists of users.. a map of nicks, to uids, and a map of uids to clients
15:27	Chouser	nymsy: that strikes me as the most natural approach.
15:28	nymsy	the other option is to use a #{} with a client struct that has all of those specific key values, and just scan the set for those desired keys each time, passing the whole clients in to each function.. (which seems more functional, than maintaining all these globals.. though it seems less efficient)
15:28	Chouser	on the other hand, I'm curious about the possibility of having a set of maps (like you did originally) as the "canonical form" of everything. Then when something changes use clojure.set/index to recreate the various maps.
15:29	nymsy	clojure.set/index?
15:29	hiredman	,(doc clojure.set/index)
15:29	clojurebot	"([xrel ks]); Returns a map of the distinct values of ks in the xrel mapped to a set of the maps in xrel with the corresponding values of ks."
15:29	hiredman	mine just exploded
15:29	hiredman	my head just exploded
15:29	nymsy	me too :)
15:29	Chouser	I've not written anything in that style, and I don't know how convenient or efficient that might be.
15:30	durka42	sounds similar to group-by
15:30	nymsy	I'd like, also, for this to be an example of doing distributed text chat in a functional way
15:30	nymsy	minimizing global state and maximizing the sharing of immutable messages
15:31	hiredman	you could do trees with zipper :P
15:31	Chouser	yikes
15:31	nymsy	Chouser: I see the doc, but I don't really see it.. can you explain how indexing helps here?
15:33	Chouser	the way we've desribed all these global maps suggests that any code that makes changes to them would have all the logic built in to go update each of the things that must be kept in sync.
15:33	Chouser	right?
15:33	nymsy	right...
15:33	hiredman	,(doc defonce)
15:33	clojurebot	"([name expr]); defs name to have the root value of the expr iff the named var has no root value, else expr is unevaluated"
15:33	hiredman	no kidding
15:34	Chouser	like an update-nick function would have to know to fix nicks and also go find the right client struct in clients and update the :nick value there.
15:34	Chouser	that might be the most complicated one, which still isn't too terrible.
15:34	nymsy	exactly
15:35	Chouser	but if there are more interconnected changes that have to be made, and more functions to make these changes, the possibility of a bug in one of them that gets things into a "wrong state" becomes more likely
15:36	nymsy	right.. that's what worries me about the copulating maps
15:36	Chouser	so one way to reduce that likelihood would be to store a canoncial state of things with no duplicate information, so that there can be no "bad" state.
15:36	nymsy	right
15:36	Chouser	so, for example, the layout you had at the beginning. a set of structs.
15:38	Chouser	then anywhere that wants to make any change at all to the state of the world would start with that set, muck around with it until it reflects the new state of the world, and pass it to a single make-it-so fn
15:38	nymsy	which is how it is now?
15:39	Chouser	make-it-so could then use clojure.set/index to compute new nick-to-client, uid-to-client, room-to-client, etc. maps, and in a dosync swap refs to point to this new state.
15:40	nymsy	oh... wow
15:40	Chouser	that way all your lookups are still fast and convenient
15:40	Chouser	all the 'read' code would be quite simple, and even the 'update' code would be more simple than the alternative.
15:41	nymsy	hmm.. index attaches an index number to each item in the set? at the top level?
15:41	Chouser	the downside (or one of them, I think) would be that make-it-so would be O(n) on clients. :-/
15:41	Chouser	nymsy: ah, on, it pulls out a key from the set of maps, and makes a map to go from ...
15:42	Chouser	hang on...
15:44	Chouser	,(let [myset '#{{a 1 b 2} {a 3 b 4} {a 5 b 6}}, idx (set/index myset '[b])user=> (let [myset '#{{a 1 b 2} {a 3 b 4} {a 5 b 6}}, idx (set/index myset '[b])] (idx {'b 6}))
15:44	clojurebot	Eval-in-box threw an exception:EOF while reading
15:44	cooldude127	someone has unbalanced parens :)
15:45	cooldude127	or just too much stuff copied
15:45	Chouser	nasty paste error. sorry
15:45	Chouser	,(let [myset '#{{a 1 b 2} {a 3 b 4} {a 5 b 6}}, idx (set/index myset '[b])] (idx {'b 6}))
15:45	clojurebot	#{{b 6, a 5}}
15:45	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: If you chat from ERC you get Lisp highlighting in your chat :)
15:45	Chouser	ok, so there's your canonical set, "myset"
15:46	nymsy	rgr
15:46	Chouser	using set/index gives me a map from
15:46	Chouser	from {b ..whatever..} to the whole struct
15:46	knapr	http://cpp.ninjacodemonkeys.org/5080 , is that starting the player before ti starts the thread and thus the player doesnt run in the thread?
15:47	Chouser	so then it's easy to look things up based on values of b
15:47	Chouser	but I could just as easily produce as many indexes for as many different keys as I want.
15:48	hiredman	knapr: you most likely want #(.play player)
15:48	nymsy	ok.. so it kinda does better what my for-filter did.. return the map in which the given has a given key with a given value
15:48	hiredman	knapr: unless (.play player) returns a Runnable
15:49	Chouser	nymsy: right, very similar, but instead of doing a linear lookup each time you need something, this takes that linear hit once and returns a map that you can use for any number of lookups
15:49	hiredman	Thread. will take 0 or 1 arg, the one are being a function of no arguments
15:49	Chouser	...until someone changes rooms or nicks, and then you have to reproduce all the maps.
15:49	hiredman	which #(.play player) will give you
15:50	knapr	hiredman: ok and then it is started when i start the thread?
15:50	hiredman	yes
15:51	nymsy	Chouser: here's my idea on world-view consistency... once someone hits the enter key on the keyboard, clients and msg become frozen for that msg
15:51	knapr	hiredman: thanks! that works.
15:51	nymsy	so I deref clients once for each message
15:52	Chouser	nymsy: sounds reasonable.
15:52	nymsy	the rest of the pathway logic assumes that worldview.. so would it hurt to reindex on each message creation?
15:53	Chouser	might be more work than necessary, if multiple messages are sent between world state changes, which seems likely.
15:54	hiredman	you toggle a dirty bit when you dirty something
15:54	Chouser	I'm mostly uncomfortable with the O(n)'ness of the whole thing. Everything's going to slow down the more users you've got, even if they're only one person is talking to one other person.
15:54	nymsy	well, theres one key that updates often
15:55	nymsy	the new one that isn't used yet, :last-action-time ... which I thought I'd use to create a connection time-out facility
15:56	BigTom	Hi
15:56	nymsy	hello
15:56	drewr	Has anyone had any problems using clojure.contrib.sql with postgres?
15:56	BigTom	I am doing something dumb
15:57	nymsy	Chouser: how bad is O(n) ?
15:57	BigTom	I think
15:57	Chouser	nymsy: double the number of users, double the processing time.
15:57	BigTom	I am getting a stack overflow on a recur but I cannot see why
15:57	Chouser	now the theorists are going to hang me, but that's the idea anyway.
15:57	nymsy	Oh.. log(n) is the better one, right?
15:57	Hun	why? it's correct.
15:58	Hun	but you should always look at the constants
15:58	Chouser	nymsy: O(1) < O(log(n)) < O(n) < O(nlog(n)) < O(nn) ...
15:58	BigTom	are there any common mistakes that do that?
15:58	Hun	when n are only your users, and you're thinking about people, O(n) might cut it
15:58	hiredman	BigTom: lets see some code
15:58	Chouser	those are the commone ones.
15:59	Hun	as the growing of population will sooner or later stop. usually before O(n) on it becomes a problem
15:59	hiredman	Hun: and people die
15:59	Chouser	Hun: are you a theorist? Are you not hanging me!?
15:59	Hun	Chouser: computer science student, 7th semester
16:00	BigTom	hmm, hang on, I'm on two machines
16:00	Chouser	BigTom: i think we're going to have to see the code.
16:00	Chouser	oh, sorry, someone already asked.
16:00	Hun	i've seen enough theorists forget to mention that you also have to look at the order of magnitude of n
16:00	Hun	hiredman: fewer than are born
16:00	Hun	growth is still an exponential curve. that means it will sooner or later crash :)
16:00	Chouser	Well, I thought someone would complain that I said "processing time" instead of "complexity" or something.
16:00	BigTom	how much can I post on here?
16:01	Chouser	BigTom: use lisppaste for more than 1 line
16:01	hiredman	clojurebot: paste?
16:01	clojurebot	lisppaste8, url
16:01	nymsy	if you have to ask...
16:01	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
16:02	hiredman	clojurebot: what is the most horrible thing?
16:02	clojurebot	the most horrible thing is http://themosthorriblething.com/index.php?h=my+algorithm+is+O%28n*n%29
16:02	lisppaste8	BigTom pasted "recur problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74372
16:02	nymsy	so... since this is a "distributed" p2p chat room.. the mesh couldem have hundreds of rooms... but the user will only be in 1 to maybe 10 or th
16:02	Hun	Chouser: the complexity ain't gonna change
16:03	Hun	that problem is intrinsically bound by O(n)
16:03	Hun	you sooner or later have to see every entry in the relation user <=> room for doing a dispatch
16:03	nymsy	not all the time
16:04	Hun	so you can't get lower. you can just cut it for dispatching only on the current room
16:04	Hun	and if it's just O(n) for a single room, so be it
16:04	nymsy	only users you see in rooms your in, at a constant rate.. for interactive consistency
16:04	Hun	there are a lot bigger fish to fry until profiling
16:05	AWizzArd	I think it was on reddit where I read that until recently Clojure represented closures internally as anon Java classes. And those can't be garbage collected.
16:05	AWizzArd	Do I remember that correctly?
16:05	nymsy	those people you don't see, you don't need to interact with immediately.. so I could use other logic for trying to find a user, by nick, that is not in my main clients list, for example, right?
16:06	Chouser	AWizzArd: a compiled fn still is a Java class, but if created via 'eval' will now be GC'd
16:06	Hun	AWizzArd: i think (not sure) that are the closure class, not the instance
16:07	Hun	so your code won't leak if you use closures in a loop, but memory consumption will be constantly sligthly higher
16:07	knapr	what I dont understnad is how to stop or pause the thread from executing. stop is deprecated. I tried interrupt but it doesnt do anything.
16:07	knapr	hiredman: do you know how to pause a thread?
16:07	AWizzArd	knapr: from outside of a thread you mean?
16:08	hiredman	BigTom: I am not sure, but you may want to filter (rest ns) not ns
16:09	AWizzArd	knapr: check out http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/technotes/guides/concurrency/threadPrimitiveDeprecation.html
16:09	AWizzArd	"What should I use instead of Thread.stop?" is your question
16:09	hiredman	knapr: I am bet the player has some sort of pause method, I would recommend using that instead of pausing the thread
16:10	nymsy	yea, I'm not overly worried about the O(n) of it. As long as clients doesn't list all clients in the web, just those in the rooms your connected to. I mean, on average, how many people do you see, if you add up all the people in all the rooms you're in on irc, on average?
16:10	hiredman	AWizzArd: he is writting an mp3 player, and, having gotten it to play, he wants to get it to pause
16:10	nymsy	(I'm probably a less than average case)
16:11	AWizzArd	knapr: also think about Rich Hickeys "ants.clj" example, where he uses the variable running for signalling a stop.
16:11	BigTom	hiredman: Doh! Told you it was something stupid
16:11	BigTom	hiredman: thanks
16:11	hiredman	there are 647 people in #haskell
16:11	hiredman	BigTom: did that fix it? I said I wasn't sure
16:11	AWizzArd	clojurebot: max people
16:11	clojurebot	max people is 129
16:11	nymsy	youch
16:12	AWizzArd	let's not forget this number was around 80 a few months ago
16:12	hiredman	clojurebot's max people was broken for a day or two
16:12	Hun	nymsy: about 1200, all channels i'm in combined. with about 200 collisions
16:12	hiredman	so maybe it missed everyone
16:12	BigTom	hiredman: yes, still slow as hell, it was frustrating because this is where I am starting from
16:13	nymsy	Hun.. Would you say you're average?
16:13	nymsy	(in terms of irc connectedness?)
16:13	Hun	not really. considering irc, most people are way fewer
16:13	BigTom	ah, spoke too soon, its just happening later on
16:13	Hun	bad english. most people are in fewer channels
16:13	Hun	at least those i know. i'd say about 400 might be a good average case
16:14	BigTom	hiredman: I put the whole thing up, it is breaking somewhere between 10,000 and 100,000
16:14	Lau_of_DK	Is the code on Sourceforge still current ?
16:15	nymsy	right... then people have their instant messaging going on.. so we'll say a liberal average is 500?.. so 500 clients.. say, 10 keys per client struct...
16:15	AWizzArd	hiredman: btw, does the clojurebot automatically deny all forms in which compile-path is used?
16:15	AWizzArd	,compile-path
16:15	AWizzArd	,(print compile-path)
16:15	clojurebot	nil
16:16	nymsy	any ninjas out there able to discern the complexity of an indexing operation on 500 clients with 10 keys?
16:16	AWizzArd	hmm, funny, some hours ago it responded with ,,denied"
16:16	nymsy	for this particular situation?
16:16	Hun	nymsy: neglectable for now
16:16	nymsy	Hun: I agree
16:16	Hun	you'd have a hard time measuring it with 10000 test users
16:16	BigTom	Should you ever get StackOverflow with recur? if it is coded correctly?
16:17	Hun	should be easy with 100000 users. get to that point before optimizing :)
16:17	nymsy	heh
16:18	Chouser	BigTom: the 'recur' itself can't be consuming any stack, but that something being done within each pass of the loop could indeed consume stack.
16:18	nymsy	anyone guestimate how long it would take to scan a set of 500 structs with 10 keys each?
16:18	Chouser	no need to guess.
16:18	Hun	nymsy: what do you mean by scan?
16:18	hiredman	nymsy: compared to the time to send/recv messages? none at all
16:19	hiredman	by that I mean network io
16:19	BigTom	Chouser: so something is hanging onto stack frames somewhere?
16:20	hiredman	clojurebot: Sieve?
16:20	clojurebot	No entiendo
16:20	hiredman	clojurebot: google Genuine Sieve of Eratosthenes
16:20	clojurebot	First, out of 850 results is:
16:20	clojurebot	The Genuine Sieve of Eratosthenes
16:20	clojurebot	http://www.cs.hmc.edu/~oneill/papers/Sieve-JFP.pdf
16:21	BigTom	hiredman: is that for me?
16:22	hiredman	BigTom: it may help
16:22	BigTom	:-)
16:22	Chouser	,(time (let [myset (reduce #(conj % {0 %2 1 0 2 0 3 0 4 0 5 0 6 0 7 0 8 0 9 0}) #{} (range 500)), idx (set/index myset [0])] (idx {0 99})))
16:22	clojurebot	#{{0 99, 1 0, 2 0, 3 0, 4 0, 5 0, 6 0, 7 0, 8 0, 9 0}}
16:22	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 121.706 msecs"
16:22	hiredman	I think the code is all in haskell, so it may just kill you
16:23	BigTom	ah well
16:23	Chouser	one tenth of a second to create the set and all the maps from scratch, index them, and look up one of them.
16:23	BigTom	I knew I would have to have a proper go at it eventually
16:24	BigTom	It can go on the pile with the pythagorean triples
16:25	nymsy	wow
16:25	nymsy	thats ninja right there
16:26	Chouser	yeah, clojure is definitely too fast. Rich should sneak in a spin delay somewhere so he can "add speed" later as needed.
16:27	ecret	AWizzArd: I am trying to compile hello.clj to try to get classes working in clojure. I have the file in /home/eli/clojure/classes/junk/hello.clj to compile it I go (binding [compile-path "/home/eli/clojure/classes/"] (compile 'junk.hello)) but this does not work. I get java.lang.Exception: namespace 'junk.hello' not found after loading '/junk/hello' (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
16:27	ecret	Any idea what is wrong? I did what yoou suggested, i added /home/eli/clojure/classes to my classpaths
16:30	BigTom	Just to clarify something, recur is not a total substitute for Tail call is it?
16:30	Hun	it isn't
16:30	Hun	a tail call can call another function
16:30	BigTom	You cannot build results on the climb out from the recursion
16:30	knapr	hmm but isnt there jsut a simple way to kill a thread forever?
16:30	knapr	and the damn player only has stop the player nad play it so not a very complete library. and doing stop on the player doesnt work
16:30	BigTom	so you have to use some kind of aggregator
16:30	nymsy	so, out of 500 users, where events are nick changes and room enter/leave ... how many events happen per second? probably less that ten... but I could put all change events in a queue and, if there's traffic, the cpus running hot, theres lots to do, i could throttle events at 5 a second.
16:30	Hun	that means that you can have f => g(x) and g => f(x)
16:30	Hun	and it works
16:31	Hun	BigTom: that's the trick in tail recursion
16:31	Chouser	BigTom: no, building values while returning isn't a tail call, so won't be optimized by normal TCO either.
16:31	knapr	how do i pronounce sieve?
16:31	Hun	it works well if you have an iterative algorithm. that means `doesn't need to do anything to clean stuff up'
16:31	hiredman	BigTom: as far as I am aware, in proper tail calls you also need an accumulator
16:31	Hun	hiredman: nope.
16:32	Chouser	knapr: dunno how you pronounce it, but I say "siv"
16:32	hiredman	Hun: ok, you don't need, but you would need one to do what he is talking about
16:32	Hun	the accumulator is needed to translate a recursive algorithm into a tailrecursive into an iteration
16:32	Hun	yep
16:32	BigTom	MAybe I am misremembering
16:32	nymsy	i think its seeve.. like, to _leave_ something some where
16:32	Hun	and using an accumulator is /very/ pointless
16:32	hiredman	clojurebot: whose job is to current hiredman when he says something that is not completely 100% correct?
16:32	clojurebot	that is scode's job
16:33	hiredman	Hun: see, it isn't even your job
16:33	Hun	you're exchanging the system's tested and good stack implementation for your own ad-hoc one
16:33	Hun	hiredman: so what? :)
16:33	hiredman	:P
16:34	Chouser	"sieve" rhymes with "give": http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sieve
16:34	Hun	i'm having an exam tomorrow and want to hang out in irc to forget it for now :)
16:34	BigTom	Hun: confused now, if I want to accumulate a value via recursion and TCO what do I do?
16:34	Hun	BigTom: you might as well just use recursion
16:34	Chouser	nymsy: I really wouldn't worry about throttling and such until you see it.
16:34	Hun	when you need an accumulator for tail recursion, you need /exactly/ as much space and time as when using recursion
16:34	hiredman	BigTom: you might as well use reduce
16:35	Hun	(in a proper working compiler at least)
16:35	Hun	BigTom: and think about it
16:35	Chouser	nymsy: regardless if you've got an O(1) or O(n) algorithm underneath. :-)
16:35	Hun	when your problem is so hard that you can't use one of the usual combinators, it's usually to hard to be expressed in a simple recursion either :)
16:35	hiredman	,(reduce + 0 (range 10))
16:35	clojurebot	45
16:36	nymsy	Chouser: aye
16:36	hiredman	,(reduce conj [] (range 10))
16:36	clojurebot	[0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9]
16:36	nymsy	Chouser: I think you hit the nail on the head with the indexing
16:36	kotarak	,(into [] (range 10))
16:36	clojurebot	[0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9]
16:36	nymsy	I appreciate the help
16:36	hiredman	kotarak: I was demonstrating recude
16:36	Chouser	nymsy: well, I'd be curious to know how it goes.
16:36	hiredman	reduce
16:37	BigTom	Thanks, maybe I need to rethink stuff
16:37	BigTom	My scheme days are long past
16:37	Hun	that's the proper way to think :)
16:37	Chouser	nymsy: like I said, I've not actually used that kind of pattern yet.
16:37	kotarak	hiredman: geez. Rich had to show me this twice before I remembered into. :]
16:38	BigTom	Hun: so when do you use recur?
16:38	nymsy	chouser: it seems more functional, right? I think it's the way to go.. also easier than keeping track of all those globals
16:41	nymsy	If there were a way to update the indexes automatically, without having to rebuild the whole thing, it'd make for a good pattern in general
16:41	Hun	BigTom: i usually don't. i try to use the normal combinators, or build a full-fetched state-machine
16:41	bakkdoor	hi.
16:41	hiredman	fetched?
16:41	BigTom	Hun: fair enough
16:41	Hun	for the state-machine, recur is good enough
16:42	BigTom	Hun: this is my first hard core foray into Functional approaches so I'll take all the advice I can
16:42	bakkdoor	is there an easy way to cast numbers to chars? for example, i have a sequence of hexadecimal numbers and want to convert it into its corresponding character string
16:42	Hun	if you tried it once, a state machine can be expressed pretty well by recursion when you have TCO
16:42	hiredman	I think I used different seq functions more then recur for project euler stuff
16:42	BigTom	hiredman: interesting
16:42	hiredman	filter, map, for
16:43	BigTom	hun: what are the normal combinators?
16:43	hiredman	like for primes I have a lazy seq that sieves out non-primes
16:43	Hun	map, reduce, filter (and specializations of those)
16:43	hiredman	I think I may have stole that from the google group though
16:43	Hun	i'm not sure what extended versions are in clojure right now.
16:43	Hun	combinators are fun :)
16:43	hiredman	apply
16:44	BigTom	Thanks, I have another avenue to study
16:44	hiredman	hmmm
16:44	hiredman	looking at my euler.clj I did use recur for #10
16:44	Hun	map and filter are easy. take your time with reduce. it's mighty and a bit non-intuitive
16:45	BigTom	Hun: funnily I am fairly happy with reduce, I think it is hard in most languages so I worked on it
16:46	BigTom	I think I really need to get my head around laziness
16:46	Hun	yep. i suggest reading the stream chapter in SICP
16:46	hiredman	clojurebot: sicp
16:46	clojurebot	sicp is http://www.codepoetics.com/wiki/index.php?title=Topics:SICP_in_other_languages:Clojure:Chapter_1
16:46	Hun	eye-opening for lazy stuff
16:46	hiredman	gah
16:46	BigTom	hiredman: gah?
16:46	hiredman	clojurebot: don't you know where the pdf is?
16:46	clojurebot	Titim gan �ir� ort.
16:46	Hun	read the text and the code. reading just one doesn't really work
16:47	nymsy	hiredman: it took me months to find the pdf
16:47	hiredman	clojurebot: google sicp pdf
16:47	clojurebot	First, out of 18900 results is:
16:47	clojurebot	Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
16:47	clojurebot	http://deptinfo.unice.fr/~roy/sicp.pdf
16:47	nymsy	hmm
16:47	Hun	you're doing something wrong.
16:47	nymsy	heheheh
16:48	hiredman	yeah I watched the videos years before I ever found the pdf
16:48	nymsy	maybe it was the other one
16:48	nymsy	the other four letter acronym, functional programming book
16:49	nymsy	htpc
16:49	Hun	paip?
16:49	cooldude127	i wrote an AVL tree in clojure yesterday. today i wrote a red-black tree in clojure as well. the two files have the exact same number of lines. WEIRD
16:49	Hun	htwp
16:49	nymsy	how to program computers? or something?
16:49	Hun	write programs
16:49	nymsy	ah
16:49	Hun	it's nice, but doesn't have much depth
16:49	hiredman	cooldude127: be sure to throw salt over your left shoulder
16:49	nymsy	clojurebot: google htwp pdf
16:49	clojurebot	First, out of 255 results is:
16:49	cooldude127	hiredman: ?
16:49	clojurebot	HTWP - TORQUE WRENCH PUMPS
16:50	clojurebot	http://www.hi-force.com/Pages-download/Catalogues/English%20main%20pages/Page-089.pdf
16:50	Hun	hmm
16:50	Hun	ah
16:50	hiredman	Nice
16:50	Hun	how to DESIGN programs
16:50	cooldude127	well i need to go to class
16:50	Hun	paip is also very nice :)
16:50	BigTom	clojurebot: google how to design programs
16:50	clojurebot	First, out of 254000000 results is:
16:50	clojurebot	How to Design Programs
16:50	clojurebot	http://www.htdp.org/
16:50	nymsy	ahah
16:50	knapr	cooldude127: can you please post the code to your avl tree and redblack tree?
16:51	knapr	cooldude127: can you please post the code to your avl tree and redblack tree?
16:51	bakkdoor	is there an easy way to cast numbers to chars? for example, i have a sequence of hexadecimal numbers and want to convert it into its corresponding character string
16:51	nymsy	too late
16:51	hiredman	,(map char (range 80 90))
16:51	clojurebot	(\P \Q \R \S \T \U \V \W \X \Y)
16:51	BigTom	Thanks for all the help, hacve to go
16:51	Hun	hf
16:52	bakkdoor	ah thanks
16:52	nymsy	bakkdoor: java can do it too, i think
16:52	knapr	how do I perform some actions when the user presses close in a GUI?
16:52	hiredman	char's in java are, I think, unsigned shorts
16:53	hiredman	so int <-> char is fairly easy
16:53	nymsy	.onClose?
16:53	Hun	knapr: bind something to that event
16:53	knapr	is there something like : gui.onDestroy(doStuff); ?
16:53	nymsy	something like that
16:53	nymsy	most swing tutorials, fwir, have it in there somewhere
16:53	hiredman	by faily easy I mean a nop
16:59	nymsy	,(({"pr" (fn [x] (pr x))} "pr") "hi")
16:59	clojurebot	"hi"
16:59	nymsy	sweet
17:00	nymsy	been thinking of setting up commands that way, in one large map
17:00	Hun	might be ok if your commands are computer generated. pretty bad for humans
17:00	nymsy	why?
17:00	Hun	,(({"pr" (fn [x] (pr x))} "Pr") "hi")
17:00	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
17:01	Hun	any questions?
17:01	Chouser	,(({"pr" pr} "pr") "hi")
17:01	clojurebot	"hi"
17:03	nymsy	true, true.. Hun: (def [msg "/nick nymsy"] (({"/nick" ... etc
17:04	Hun	parsing quasi-structured input is pretty hard
17:05	nymsy	aye, I made first-word and rest-words to parse the commands
17:05	nymsy	works pretty good
17:06	Hun	did 2 parsers for a debugger. the first one was an ad-hoc one (homegrewn regexes with HUGE casetables), the second one uses a proper grammar
17:06	Hun	i lost one feature (being able to have pr expand to print), but the code got a whole lot better expandable
17:07	nymsy	yea, I'm not quite there yet :)
17:07	Hun	the completion was cool. (filter #(starts-with (car x) command-string) command-table)
17:07	Hun	more or less
17:08	Chouser	Hun: Clojure? Or some other lisp?
17:08	Hun	if more than one matches (s could be save or step), the list was of length > 1 and an error was signalled
17:08	Chouser	'car' nm.
17:08	Hun	Chouser: CL
17:08	Hun	losely translated. it's hard to lose your car, you know
17:09	Chouser	but #() is hard to ignore. :-) ...or does CL do that too?
17:09	Hun	mine did
17:09	Chouser	:-)
17:09	Hun	that macro is pretty easy to write, you know. my implementation took 20 lines
17:10	Hun	though it used _1 and _2 instead of %1 and %2
17:10	Hun	i thought if adding key args to that would be nice (like (#(foo _bar) :bar 5) => 5
17:10	nymsy	well, gents.. it's been swell... **Chouser: thanks again for the index tip.. I'm racking out. see yall later
17:10	Hun	but that was a bit to hard
17:11	Hun	have fun
17:11	Chouser	nymsy: good luck in the deployment
17:11	Chouser	nymsy: US? Nat'l guard? Anyway, I wish you well.
17:41	knapr	it seems to use windowlistener i have to implement a java interface, is that correct? how do I do that in Clojure?
17:41	Cark	,(doc proxy)
17:41	clojurebot	"([class-and-interfaces args & fs]); class-and-interfaces - a vector of class names args - a (possibly empty) vector of arguments to the superclass constructor. f => (name [params] body) or (name ([params] body) ([params+] body) ...) Expands to code which creates a instance of a proxy class that implements the named class/interface(s) by calling the supplied fns. A single class, if provided, must be first. If not
17:42	Cark	or you could use genclass
17:42	walters	one trick that rhino does that really helps in java integration is for functions to transparently implement single-method interfaces, i don't see why clojure fns couldn't do that
17:42	Cark	or make a namespsace which will become your class
17:44	hiredman	walters: I think it is a performance deal breaker
17:44	hiredman	but I forget
17:44	hiredman	someone was here and asked rhickey about it
17:46	hiredman	I imagine you could do that, but not completely transparently with a macro
17:46	hiredman	(mk-interface java.some.Interface fn)
17:47	knapr	if i want to make an executable file for my mp3, do i first use compile then i use jar on that?
17:47	walters	yeah, that's equivalent to how groovy does it, you have to say { foo, bar -> stuff(); } as java.some.Interface
17:48	hiredman	knapr: http://clojure.org/compilation under "gen-class Examples" has an example stand alone jar
17:48	hiredman	quick, name a single method java interface off the top of your head
17:48	walters	hiredman: FilenameFilter
17:50	walters	hiredman: also, two of my personal projects make extensive use of them
17:50	AWizzArd	,(print ns)
17:50	hiredman	,(:name (bean (first (.getMethods java.io.FilenameFilter))))
17:50	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>
17:50	clojurebot	"accept"
17:50	AWizzArd	,(print (ns-publics 'sandbox))
17:50	clojurebot	{}
17:51	hiredman	,(symbol (:name (bean (first (.getMethods java.io.FilenameFilter)))))
17:51	clojurebot	accept
17:52	hiredman	and then you just have the macro generate the relevent proxy form around that
17:52	AWizzArd	,(count (ns-map 'sandbox))
17:52	clojurebot	541
17:54	ecret	I am able to compile clojure classes but the whole reason I wanted to do that was so that java.lang.Class.forName("clojureclassname") would work in the java jar file that I called. But I am unable to (Class/forName "clojureclassname") as a test. I get java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: transcriber The brief code is at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74380
17:55	ecret	Does clojure support this mechanism?
17:56	AWizzArd	ecret: great, so you managed it to compile to .class files :-)
17:57	ecret	yes ! took 5 hours but it worked. I am not totally 100% sure which of the things I did fixed it but I am not going to meddle :>
17:57	AWizzArd	;-)
17:57	ecret	pretty sure it was just the class path + the compile thing though
17:57	AWizzArd	yup
17:57	knapr	man i always get suck on the damn java classpath as soon as i dont use it for a while i get confused
17:57	AWizzArd	once you found out how they play together it can be done within seconds to minutes
17:58	ecret	yep
17:59	AWizzArd	ecret: so why do you want to do Class/forName? Is your goal to use code that you have written in Clojure inside of Java?
18:00	ecret	sort of. A Jar file I am accessing has this line : Class cls = Class.forName(className); where className is specified in a config.xml file that needs to belong to the caller of the jar file
18:02	ecret	the caller is the transcription.clj so transcription.class
18:07	scottj	What software could one use to make it easy to define a macro that takes an equation and outputs a function for each variable that solves for that variable?
18:07	knapr	if i have: C:/clojure/classes/progs/comex/ and in comex i have compileexample.class et al. then i ahve C:/clojure/progs/ and i ave progs.comex.compileexample.clj, how do i run that?
18:20	knapr	if i have: C:/clojure/classes/progs/comex/ and in comex i have compileexample.class et al. then i ahve C:/clojure/progs/ and i ave progs.comex.compileexample.clj, how do i run that?
18:42	cooldude127	technomancy: hey did something change in clojure-mode (or at least the one in emacs-starter-kit) to make clojure-enable-paredit not work?
18:43	technomancy	cooldude127: yeah, upstream didn't like the idea of making that a flag
18:43	technomancy	check the comments in the clojure-mode header
18:43	cooldude127	ok
18:43	technomancy	the way he switched it to work is pretty reasonable
18:43	cooldude127	technomancy: that's the way it works for every other lisp actually
18:44	technomancy	oh cool
18:45	cooldude127	technomancy: do you ever notice yourself doing C-c C-c on elisp expressions and expecting it to work?
18:47	technomancy	cooldude127: I actually end up using C-c C-l most of the time
18:47	technomancy	just my habit; need to spend some more quality time with the slime manual
18:47	cooldude127	oh, i'm addicted to compiling individual top-levels
18:48	cooldude127	but the real one to use is C-c C-k if you want to do the whole file
18:48	technomancy	what's the difference?
18:48	cooldude127	one prompts you for the file, and is evaling it i think (not sure about that), but C-c C-k just compiles it like you did C-c C-c on everything in the file
18:49	knapr	is how to deisng programs aimed at beginners?
18:49	cooldude127	knapr: i think so
18:49	knapr	it seems bsic just skimming through it?
18:49	knapr	dude:post your avn and redblack tree please
18:50	knapr	what is a good book on how to deisgn complex programs, preferrably in a functional way
18:50	cooldude127	knapr: k, but my RB tree doesn't do deletes yet btw
18:51	hiredman	cooldude127: you using clojure.zip for the trees?
18:51	cooldude127	hiredman: no, but i really should look at that
18:51	cooldude127	hiredman: they're pretty naive implementations, i'm just learning this stuff
18:51	technomancy	cooldude127: nice; one step fewer I guess
18:52	cooldude127	knapr: here they are: http://gist.github.com/53671
18:52	cooldude127	technomancy: yeah, i'm all about the efficiency
18:53	cooldude127	hiredman: holy shit, what are these zippers?
18:54	knapr	ok
18:54	cooldude127	hiredman: it's a good thing i didn't know about these before i wrote the avls, i had to translate that back to java, and zippers would not have made that easy
18:54	cooldude127	lol
18:54	hiredman	heh
18:55	hiredman	so far I have avoided actually trying to figure out the intermediate output of munging stuff with zippers
18:55	cooldude127	hiredman: what do you mean?
18:57	hiredman	cooldude127: zippers sort of turn a data structure insideout as you move through it
18:57	hiredman	and when you are done you "zip" it back up
18:58	cooldude127	oh jesus
18:58	cooldude127	yeah i'm not ready for that
18:58	knapr	so
18:58	knapr	how can I run
18:58	hiredman	it is neet because you move through a ds using ->
18:58	cooldude127	ok what do i do to make it so i can refer to clojure.zip as just zip?
18:58	hiredman	er ->
18:58	hiredman	damn it
18:58	hiredman	"->"
18:58	cooldude127	lol
18:59	cooldude127	i knew what you meant
18:59	hiredman	(require '[clojure.zip :as zip])
18:59	cooldude127	hiredman: in a ns form that would be (:require [clojure.zip :as zip]) ?
19:00	hiredman	yes
19:00	cooldude127	k
19:00	cooldude127	ok back to my avl tree, cuz no way am i mucking around with the RB tree when i barely understand both RB trees and zippers
19:01	cooldude127	can't mess with two things i don't understand at the same time
19:02	lisppaste8	knapr pasted "compiling java is hell" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74384
19:02	knapr	someone can explain ^^ ? just how to run compiled clojure...
19:04	hiredman	knapr: on the compilation page where you saw that example, right under that example
19:04	hiredman	java -cp ./classes:clojure.jar clojure.examples.hello Fred
19:05	knapr	where ./classes:clojure.jar is instead C:/clojure/clojure.jar? so why doesnt that work?
19:05	hiredman	./classes needs to be replaced with the path to your classes directory and clojure.jar with the path to your clojure
19:05	knapr	and from where shouls it be run?anywhere?
19:05	hiredman	the classpath seperator on windwos is ;
19:05	hiredman	not :
19:06	hiredman	if you have full paths then you can run it from anywhere
19:12	knapr	sigh i cant get it to work, noclassdeffounderror
19:17	knapr	about function composition
19:17	knapr	(comp map map)
19:17	knapr	def that
19:17	knapr	(mmap inc [[1,2,3,4,5]])
19:17	knapr	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$map (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
19:18	knapr	in haskell that works
19:20	hiredman	well
19:20	hiredman	this is not haskell
19:20	hiredman	map, takes two args each time
19:21	hiredman	and outputs a single value
19:21	hiredman	so the first map outputs a single value, the second map gets a single value
19:21	hiredman	but map takes two args
19:21	hiredman	so no dice
19:22	hiredman	,(map (patial map inc) [(range 10) (range 20 30)])
19:22	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: patial in this context
19:22	hiredman	,(map (partial map inc) [(range 10) (range 20 30)])
19:22	clojurebot	((1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30))
19:27	hiredman	clojurebot: for?
19:27	clojurebot	for is not a loop
19:27	hiredman	clojurebot: for is also not used often enough
19:27	clojurebot	Roger.
19:33	hiredman	my euler.clj is so embarresing
19:33	knapr	clojurebot: for?
19:33	clojurebot	for is not used often enough
19:33	knapr	clojurebot: for?
19:33	clojurebot	for is not used often enough
19:33	knapr	clojurebot: hiredmans euler.clj is so embarassing
19:33	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
19:34	knapr	clojurebot: hierdmans?
19:34	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
19:34	knapr	clojurebot: hiredmans?
19:34	clojurebot	hiredmans euler.clj is so embarassing
19:34	knapr	why?
19:35	knapr	clojurebot: meaning of life?
19:35	clojurebot	excusez-moi
19:35	knapr	clojurebot: meaning of life is to become one with Lisp
19:35	clojurebot	In Ordnung
19:35	knapr	clojurebot: meaning of life?
19:35	clojurebot	meaning of life is to become one with Lisp
19:35	hiredman	knapr: careful about over writing stuff
19:37	knapr	ok'
19:38	knapr	clojurebot: OO is to programming what astrology is to astronomy
19:38	clojurebot	Alles klar
19:38	knapr	clojurebot: OO?
19:38	clojurebot	OO is to programming what astrology is to astronomy
19:40	Cark	tss =)
19:41	gnuvince_	hahaha
19:56	cooldude127	hiredman: when using zippers, what's the best way to represent a binary tree? i was imagining vectors kinda like the example, but then i wondered what order to put elements in
20:01	knapr	http://paste.lisp.org/display/74384
20:02	cooldude127	knapr: that hasn't gotten worked out yet?
20:02	durka42	wouldn't you just do: java compleexample
20:02	durka42	compileexample
20:03	cooldude127	you need clojure on the classpath
20:03	durka42	with clojure.jar on the $CLASSPATH
20:03	knapr	i get wrong name
20:03	cooldude127	knapr: what do you mean?
20:03	durka42	NoClassDefFound?
20:04	knapr	yes
20:04	durka42	even though you have both clojure.jar and ...../prog/comex on the classpath
20:04	cooldude127	knapr: you should be in the classes folder, and run java -cp path/to/clojure.jar progs.comex.compileexample
20:04	knapr	Caused by: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: C:.clojure.classes.progs.comex.comp
20:04	knapr	ileexample.class
20:05	cooldude127	java -cp .;c:\clojure\clojure.jar progs.comex.compileexample
20:06	knapr	ayay sir!
20:06	knapr	thanks
20:06	cooldude127	no problem
20:09	knapr	and when i have abig program with reuires and imports i add :gen-class the same way?
20:13	durka42	clojurebot: where's my list of exceptions?
20:13	clojurebot	http://paste.lisp.org/display/74305
20:14	lisppaste8	durka annotated #74305 with "errors" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74305#1
20:14	durka42	,(+ 840 92)
20:14	clojurebot	932
20:19	knapr	woot i managed to compile and run my mp3player!
20:20	durka42	sweet
20:20	knapr	now i just need to make it executable without hocus-pocus
20:20	durka42	hocus pocus?
20:23	knapr	java classpath
20:31	gnuvince_	There's no literal syntax for longs, is there?
20:38	knapr	should I put my mp3player up at some wiki or something?
20:39	knapr	it contains quite a lot of interest for the CLojure-curious. GUI(swing+miglayuout+using clojure-contrib). basic threading. playing sound. a lot of interopearting with Java etc.
20:42	knapr	there is a lot of things being generated and created when compiling and running
20:42	knapr	which file/files do i need in the jar? just compileexample.class?
20:43	knapr	what about compileexample_init.class?
20:48	durka42	knapr: yeah, put it up on a wiki or github or lisppaste somewhere
20:48	durka42	you might also need clojure.jar
20:51	durka42	you might want to look at how gorilla does it
20:51	durka42	it has an ant script with an option for standalone build (unzips clojure.jar into gorilla.jar)
20:58	knapr	gorilla?
20:58	knapr	you mean it has a build.xml?
20:59	durka42	yes
21:01	durka42	http://bitbucket.org/kotarak/gorilla/src/
21:20	cooldude127	is there anymore documentation clojure's zippers besides what's on the site?
21:21	hiredman	I spent alot of zip flipping back and forth with zip.clj
21:21	hiredman	hah
21:21	hiredman	a lot of time flipping
21:21	cooldude127	lol
21:27	cooldude127	hiredman: i'm trying to figure out how to write a zipper that will let me get at the data in the tree and still get at the left and right nodes using zip/left and zip/right, idk what i'm doing tho
21:28	hiredman	,(require '[clojure.zip :as zip])
21:28	clojurebot	nil
21:29	hiredman	,(-> '(+ 1 3 (* 2 4)) zip/seq-zip)
21:29	clojurebot	[(+ 1 3 (* 2 4)) nil]
21:29	hiredman	,(-> '(+ 1 3 (* 2 4)) zip/seq-zip zip/down)
21:29	clojurebot	[+ {:l [], :pnodes [(+ 1 3 (* 2 4))], :ppath nil, :r (1 3 (* 2 4))}]
21:29	hiredman	,(-> '(+ 1 3 (* 2 4)) zip/seq-zip zip/down zip/node)
21:29	clojurebot	+
21:29	hiredman	,(-> '(+ 1 3 (* 2 4)) zip/seq-zip zip/down zip/right zip/node)
21:29	clojurebot	1
21:31	hiredman	,(-> '(+ 1 3 (* 2 4)) zip/seq-zip zip/down zip/right zip/right zip/right zip/node)
21:31	clojurebot	(* 2 4)
21:31	hiredman	wheee!
21:31	cooldude127	hiredman: that's not what i want tho, i want to be able to go down, then go left or right to the the left or right subtree
21:31	gnuvince_	,(doc get)
21:31	clojurebot	"([map key] [map key not-found]); Returns the value mapped to key, not-found or nil if key not present."
21:32	hiredman	,(-> '(+ 1 3 (* 2 4)) zip/seq-zip zip/down zip/node)
21:32	clojurebot	+
21:32	gnuvince_	Is there a reason to use get instead of using a map as a functin?
21:32	gnuvince_	function*
21:32	hiredman	,(-> '(+ 1 3 (* 2 4)) zip/seq-zip zip/children)
21:32	clojurebot	(+ 1 3 (* 2 4))
21:32	Chousuke	gnuvince_: perhaps its clearer in some cases?
21:33	hiredman	,(-> '(+ 1 3 (* 2 4)) zip/seq-zip zip/lefts zip/node)
21:33	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
21:33	hiredman	,(-> '(+ 1 3 (* 2 4)) zip/seq-zip zip/lefts)
21:33	clojurebot	nil
21:33	hiredman	,(-> '(+ 1 3 (* 2 4)) zip/seq-zip zip/rights)
21:33	clojurebot	nil
21:33	hiredman	,(-> '(+ 1 3 (* 2 4)) zip/seq-zip zip/down zip/rights)
21:33	clojurebot	(1 3 (* 2 4))
21:33	hiredman	,(-> '(+ 1 3 (* 2 4)) zip/seq-zip zip/down zip/lefts)
21:33	clojurebot	nil
21:33	hiredman	hmm
21:34	cooldude127	hiredman: i guess what i want is for it to start at the data, then be able to go left or right from there, instead of always starting at the beginning
21:34	hiredman	,(-> '((1 1) 1 3 (* 2 4)) zip/seq-zip zip/down zip/lefts)
21:34	clojurebot	nil
21:35	hiredman	you are at a leaf, and want to head left from the leaf?
21:36	bradbev	Hi guys. How much memory does an instance of a struct-map consume?
21:36	cooldude127	hiredman: i want something like this: [[[1] 2 [3]] 4 [[5] 6 [7]]] for a binary tree, and for it to start in the middle
21:36	hiredman	dunno
21:38	bradbev	I want to write a memory logging application, each alloc should be represented by a struct-map, with about 7 keys, so I'd guess 7*4 = about 28 bytes. I want to put every alloc into a map keyed on its address, and keep a list of all maps through time. That should be ok due to structure sharing.
21:38	hiredman	(-> [[[1] 2 [3]] 4 [[5] 6 [7]]] zip/vector-zip)
21:38	hiredman	,(-> [[[1] 2 [3]] 4 [[5] 6 [7]]] zip/vector-zip)
21:38	clojurebot	[[[[1] 2 [3]] 4 [[5] 6 [7]]] nil]
21:38	hiredman	,(-> [[[1] 2 [3]] 4 [[5] 6 [7]]] zip/vector-zip zip/down zip/node)
21:38	clojurebot	[[1] 2 [3]]
21:38	bradbev	The problem is that my 7 key struct injected into a map 750,000 times is about 438Mb
21:39	cooldude127	hiredman: see that should be 4 in my ideal case
21:39	lisppaste8	knapr pasted "making an exec jar" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74391
21:39	hiredman	,(-> [[[1] 2 [3]] 4 [[5] 6 [7]]] zip/vector-zip zip/down zip/left zip/left zip/node)
21:39	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
21:39	bradbev	if I inject 750,000 ints into a vector, then it is only a handful of MB
21:39	hiredman	,(-> [[[1] 2 [3]] 4 [[5] 6 [7]]] zip/vector-zip zip/down zip/node)
21:39	clojurebot	[[1] 2 [3]]
21:39	hiredman	,(-> [[[1] 2 [3]] 4 [[5] 6 [7]]] zip/vector-zip zip/left zip/left zip/node)
21:39	bradbev	so, I'd guess structmaps are huge
21:39	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
21:39	bradbev	any thoughts?
21:40	hiredman	,(-> [[[1] 2 [3]] 4 [[5] 6 [7]]] zip/vector-zip zip/down zip/right zip/node)
21:40	clojurebot	4
21:40	hiredman	duh
21:40	cooldude127	hiredman: yeah i know you could do it that way, but it feels counter intuitive
21:41	hiredman	sorry I meant duh for myself
21:41	cooldude127	i figured
21:42	cooldude127	hiredman: i considered doing it prorder, like [data left right], but then it's still right and right -> right, instead of left and right
21:43	bradbev	Hmm, OK ref object appear to be quite large
21:44	hiredman	cooldude127: you can make your own zipper
21:44	cooldude127	hiredman: yeah i'm looking into figuring out how to make that work correctly
21:47	knapr	http://paste.lisp.org/display/74391 , <- i cant get it to work(making an exec jar). i looked at gorilla but it was to complicated
21:49	cooldude127	hiredman: damnit this is confusing
21:50	hiredman	Yes
21:50	hiredman	but that does make it less cool
21:51	cooldude127	hiredman: is there anyway to make a zipper go down, and then be able to make an immediate left? at all?
21:52	hiredman	,(doc zip/down)
21:52	clojurebot	"([loc]); Returns the loc of the leftmost child of the node at this loc, or nil if no children"
21:52	cooldude127	hiredman: so no?
21:52	hiredman	down should hit the left
21:53	cooldude127	hiredman: maybe i just write my own left and right functions that do the right thing?
21:54	hiredman	you could do that
21:55	knapr	wheres does the expr hiredman come from?
21:55	knapr	i heard it in the office
21:56	hiredman	I borrowed it from a gibson book
21:57	hiredman	Count Zero, I believe
22:10	johan1	hmm, I still don't get Java interop. I'm trying to call a method setCoordinates(arg), where arg is int[]. In Clojure I try (.setCoordinates [1 2 3]) which doesn't work. Any idea on how to create a int[] argument from clojure?
22:10	durka42	you didn't pass the object
22:10	durka42	{what?}.setCoordinates()
22:10	johan1	that's a typo
22:10	johan1	it is correct in my code, but the argument is wrong
22:10	durka42	oh ok
22:11	durka42	in that case i'm not sure
22:11	durka42	maybe:
22:11	durka42	(doc make-array)
22:11	clojurebot	Creates and returns an array of instances of the specified class of the specified dimension(s). Note that a class object is required. Class objects can be obtained by using their imported or fully-qualified name. Class objects for the primitive types can be obtained using, e.g., Integer/TYPE.; arglists ([type len] [type dim & more-dims])
22:11	cooldude127	also:
22:11	cooldude127	(doc into-array)
22:11	clojurebot	Returns an array with components set to the values in aseq. The array's component type is type if provided, or the type of the first value in aseq if present, or Object. All values in aseq must be compatible with the component type. Class objects for the primitive types can be obtained using, e.g., Integer/TYPE.; arglists ([aseq] [type aseq])
22:11	durka42	,(into-array [1 2 3])
22:11	clojurebot	#<Integer[] [Ljava.lang.Integer;@1f9b804>
22:12	johan1	ok, I will give it a try
22:12	hiredman	vectors are not java arrays
22:12	cooldude127	they are objects
22:12	cooldude127	,(class [1 2 3])
22:12	clojurebot	clojure.lang.LazilyPersistentVector
22:12	hiredman	,(class (into-array [1 2 3]))
22:12	clojurebot	[Ljava.lang.Integer;
22:12	hiredman	so are java arrays
22:12	hiredman	you most likely want ints not Intergers
22:13	hiredman	so you want
22:13	cooldude127	hiredman: autoboxing should make that ok tho
22:13	hiredman	,(into-array Integer/TYPE [1 2 3])
22:13	clojurebot	#<int[] [I@92eb76>
22:13	cooldude127	,(into-array Integer/Type [1 2 3])
22:13	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: No such namespace: Integer
22:13	cooldude127	lol
22:13	cooldude127	hiredman: oh i messed it up
22:14	hiredman	,(class (into-array Integer/TYPE [1 2 3]))
22:14	clojurebot	[I
22:14	hiredman	Indeed
22:24	johan1	it works. thanks
22:25	hiredman	,(class 1)
22:25	clojurebot	java.lang.Integer
22:30	dreish	,(gensym)
22:30	clojurebot	G__1270
22:30	dreish	,(gensym)
22:30	clojurebot	G__1274
22:30	dreish	,(= (gensym) 'G__1278)
22:30	clojurebot	true
22:31	dreish	Is this a bug?
22:31	hiredman	,(= (gensym) (gensym))
22:31	clojurebot	false
22:31	durka42	gensym creates a new symbol
22:31	durka42	you inferred the algorithm for naming said symbol, an implementation detail
22:31	durka42	doesn't seem like a bug
22:32	hiredman	,(let [a (gensym)] (= a (gensym)))
22:32	clojurebot	false
22:32	dreish	Yes, and maybe the bug is in my expectations, but in Common Lisp, a gensym cannot be equal to any other existing symbol.
22:32	hiredman	,(= nil 'a)
22:32	clojurebot	false
22:32	hiredman	,(= (gensym) 'a)
22:32	clojurebot	false
22:32	dreish	If you begin an expression (= (gensym) ...) in CL, there is nothing you can type to make it true.
22:32	dreish	Sorry, (eq)
22:33	durka42	hmm
22:33	hiredman	,(str (gensym) " " (gensym))
22:33	clojurebot	"G__1299 G__1300"
22:33	hiredman	hmmm
22:33	knapr	has anyone managed to create an executable jar of a clojure-program? could you show me?
22:33	durka42	did you look at gorilla?
22:33	durka42	after you do "ant -Dstandalone=true" gorilla.jar is runnable with java -jar
22:33	durka42	i don't know how but kotarak presumably does
22:34	durka42	dreish: i guess, the arguments to = are evaluted first, so the symbol exists before gensym creates its new one
22:34	hiredman	knapr: jars are never "executable", windows is just typically setup to, when you click on X.jar, to run java -jar X.jar
22:35	durka42	Gorilla=> (let [a 'G__1963] (prn (gensym)) (prn a))
22:35	durka42	G__1963
22:35	durka42	G__1963
22:35	durka42	nil
22:35	durka42	that does seem strange
22:35	dreish	RIght, so it ought to be no problem to create a different one. But I think I remember seeing that the reader is side-effect-free, and that symbols aren't interned (but keywords are). So I guess it would be impossible for gensym to be as clean as it is in Common Lisp, and it would presumably just be the responsibility of the programmer to avoid creating symbols beginning G__.
22:35	dreish	Which I guess is reasonable enough.
22:36	knapr	i see
22:37	hiredman	,(doc gensym)
22:37	clojurebot	"([] [prefix-string]); Returns a new symbol with a unique name. If a prefix string is supplied, the name is prefix# where # is some unique number. If prefix is not supplied, the prefix is 'G__'."
22:37	dreish	That actually seems a little more troubling, now that I think about it, because it means any symbol with a number at the end could potentially collide with a gensym.
22:38	dreish	I'm sure I must be wrong about that.
22:38	durka42	so in CL, it looks like gensym'd symbols are a completely different type from regular symbols?
22:39	dreish	I think they're regular-enough symbols, but they print in a form that doesn't read back to the same symbol.
22:40	dreish	That might be the answer, though. Make them somehow something that can't be produced through the reader, or by calling symbol.
22:41	gnuvince_	Could anybody lend me a hand with a macro?
22:41	gnuvince_	I think I've almost got it, but I can't put the finishing touch.
22:42	hiredman	clojurebot: macro help?
22:42	clojurebot	macro help is http://clojure-log.n01se.net/macro.html
22:42	hiredman	:P
22:42	durka42	isn't that captcha circumvention?
22:42	dreish	I can help you move a macro up a flight of stairs if it weighs less than about 150 lbs.
22:42	durka42	(because that captcha is so advanced...)
22:43	durka42	be careful, parentheses are slippery
22:43	durka42	and quasiquotes are sharp
22:45	lisppaste8	gnuvince pasted "parse-buffer macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74394
22:47	dreish	Why is this a macro?
22:47	gnuvince_	Cause I don't want to manually call .get, .getShort, .getInt, etc.
22:48	gnuvince_	I want to write a description of the buffer's structure and have all right calls made
22:49	dreish	I just don't see why this could be a function that does exactly the same thing.
22:49	dreish	couldn't
22:51	gnuvince_	Because it looks exactly like something macros are used for.
22:51	hiredman	clojurebot: who's the man is <reply> ?(^_^)?
22:51	clojurebot	Alles klar
22:51	hiredman	clojurebot: who's the man?
22:51	clojurebot	?(^_^)?
22:51	danlarkin	intense
22:51	durka42	nice unicode
22:52	gnuvince_	Anybody?
22:52	hiredman	I just stole it from someone in #haskell
22:52	gnuvince_	I just need to figure out how to write the ~forms part in the mapcat call
22:53	hiredman	yeah, macros are for code manipulation
22:53	hiredman	which this is not
22:54	lisppaste8	durka annotated #74394 with "expansion of the actual macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74394#1
22:54	hiredman	gnuvince_: I think you need to quote the stuff that gets put into & forms
22:55	gnuvince_	hiredman: quote it where? in my call?
22:55	hiredman	which is a sign of not macrohood
22:55	hiredman	yeah
22:55	gnuvince_	Fuck
22:55	dreish	It's a function trapped in a macro's body. Won't you help?
22:55	hiredman	because ~form just turns into a seq of attempted function calls
22:56	dreish	I like Stu's "rules of macro club": #1: don't write macros.
22:56	gnuvince_	So how would I write this without the calling code looking like fucking Java crap?
22:58	gnuvince_	Same definition except with defn and call with (parse-buffer buf [:field 1 :byte #(...)] ...)?
22:58	dreish	That's where I'd start.
22:59	danlarkin	ditto!
23:00	dreish	Probably use brackets for the lists instead of parens so you don't have to quote.
23:00	hiredman	sounds like a plan
23:00	danlarkin	vectors
23:00	danlarkin	not brackets
23:00	dreish	Right. When I'm especially tired I also call them square thingies.
23:00	danlarkin	important to know that vectors != lists
23:01	dreish	Little square data structures floating around in the computer.
23:01	hiredman	then once you have that, you can make a macro that turns lists into vectors and passes them to your function :P
23:01	durka42	this macro known as [
23:02	hiredman	actually it is a function know as vec
23:02	hiredman	,(vec '(:a :b :c))
23:02	clojurebot	[:a :b :c]
23:03	durka42	(defmacro vecm [xs] `(vec '~xs))
23:05	lisppaste8	gnuvince pasted "Using a function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74395
23:06	gnuvince_	For the curious
23:06	dreish	Does it work?
23:06	durka42	btw: you can annotate pastes
23:07	gnuvince_	dreish: it does.
23:07	dreish	Woohoo!
23:07	dreish	Another problem solved by not-macros!
23:07	gnuvince_	Gonna need to try it with my real data
23:07	gnuvince_	But not tonight
23:26	brianh	emacs noob here
23:26	brianh	i just updated my clojure-mode & it deleted the clojure-auto file
23:27	brianh	what's the new alternative?
23:29	gnuvince_	brianh: look in clojure-mode.el
23:29	gnuvince_	the two lines are there
23:29	gnuvince_	There's an autoload and an add-to-alist call
23:31	brianh	k thx
23:49	durka42	how do you write a constructor for :gen-class?
23:52	durka42	:int
23:52	durka42	:init i mean
23:55	hiredman	uh, I think the init function returns a tuple (vector)
23:56	hiredman	the first element is a vector of args to pass to the superclass constructoor
23:57	hiredman	the second element is the starting state
23:58	lisppaste8	knapr pasted "macro-problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74398
23:58	knapr	clojurebot: OO?
23:58	clojurebot	OO is to programming what astrology is to astronomy
23:58	knapr	some macro-gurus here? ^^