#clojure – 2009-01-23

2009-01-23

00:09	durka42	hiredman: does the ~syntax require extra setup?
00:11	hiredman	no
00:11	hiredman	I just pushed it around the time you were looking for the repo
00:11	durka42	it only seems to work when i address it to clojurebot
00:11	hiredman	the top of git log should be something about "~"
00:12	durka42	oh i missed that last commit
00:12	hiredman	if it isn't, you don't have "~"
00:21	eyeris	What is the proper way to iterate over a collection, binding both the seq entry and the index into the seq?
00:22	hiredman	(map vector [:a :b :c] (range 3))
00:23	hiredman	,(map vector [:a :b :c] (range 3))
00:23	clojurebot	([:a 0] [:b 1] [:c 2])
00:23	jbondeson	finally! got an ant script just to compile the whole mess
00:24	durka42	,(indexed [:a :b :c])
00:24	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: indexed in this context
00:24	eyeris	hiredman So that creates a new vector that I can iterate over using doseq?
00:24	hiredman	it creates a new seq of vectors
00:24	eyeris	Right
00:25	hiredman	sure, if you want to use doseq
00:25	eyeris	So then, in the doseq bindings, is there any "destructive binding"?
00:25	hiredman	you mean destructured?
00:25	eyeris	Or do I have to use the (first) and (last) to bind a symbol to the original seq entry and the index?
00:25	Cark	,(doseq [[name index] (map vector [:a :b :c] (iterate inc 0))] (prn (str index name)))
00:25	clojurebot	"0:a" "1:b" "2:c"
00:26	hiredman	you could just use map instead of doseq there
00:26	eyeris	Thanks! The [name index] is what I meant by "destructive binding"
00:26	eyeris	What is that called in clojure terms?
00:27	hiredman	destructured binding
00:27	eyeris	Ok
00:30	WizardofWestmarc	hm, this is strange, I have a vector of vector pairs that's giving me some weird issues when trying to run reduce against it
00:30	hiredman	what is the rror?
00:30	cooldude127	WizardofWestmarc: let's see some code!
00:30	WizardofWestmarc	so I do (reduce (fn [a b] a) vecofvecs)
00:30	WizardofWestmarc	and it only spits out the first vector inside the larger one
00:30	hiredman	...
00:30	jbondeson	you don't want to see his code, he's a dirty ex-pythoner ;)
00:31	cooldude127	WizardofWestmarc: that's right
00:31	hiredman	WizardofWestmarc: that is how reduce works
00:31	jbondeson	yeah
00:31	WizardofWestmarc	well, here's the other thing
00:31	cooldude127	WizardofWestmarc: first arg is the accumulator, which starts with the first item in the sequence
00:31	jbondeson	you need to collect inside the function if you wanted to do that
00:31	WizardofWestmarc	good point
00:31	WizardofWestmarc	however
00:31	WizardofWestmarc	the example that caused me to try it
00:31	cooldude127	WizardofWestmarc: if you keep returning the accumulator, it won't change
00:31	WizardofWestmarc	(def totalwords (reduce fn([[_ freq1] [_ freq2]] (+ freq1 freq2)) sortedlist))
00:32	jbondeson	that counts
00:32	cooldude127	the second items in all the vectors
00:32	durka42	hiredman: i got clojurebot to promise to deliver messages. i'll work on fulfilling the promise tomorrow
00:32	jbondeson	and destructures
00:32	WizardofWestmarc	again, this is a vec of vecs [["xyz" 1] ["def" 5]] it blows up
00:32	hiredman	WizardofWestmarc: you obviously mispasted that
00:32	hiredman	or mistyped it
00:32	cooldude127	no he didn't, it's wrong
00:32	cooldude127	hold on, let me fix it
00:33	WizardofWestmarc	oh, duh
00:33	WizardofWestmarc	I see one typo
00:33	WizardofWestmarc	I lost it in a repl crash
00:33	hiredman	fn is outside the parens
00:33	WizardofWestmarc	yeah noticed
00:33	hiredman	WizardofWestmarc: note the doubling up if the brakcets
00:33	WizardofWestmarc	but the error I get when my code isn't dumb is claiming I'm trying to nth an int
00:33	hiredman	of
00:34	cooldude127	WizardofWestmarc: (reduce (fn [acc [_ freq]] (+ acc freq)) 0 sortedlist)
00:34	cooldude127	try that
00:34	hiredman	man, my internet sucks
00:34	jbondeson	your intertubes are clogged, call a plumber
00:34	cooldude127	lol
00:34	hiredman	nah, it'ss just clearwire
00:35	WizardofWestmarc	ok, that worked
00:35	WizardofWestmarc	and I get it
00:35	cooldude127	good
00:35	WizardofWestmarc	so I'd HAVE to use the initialval to make it work
00:35	cooldude127	you only get a vector for the accumulator the first time
00:35	cooldude127	WizardofWestmarc: to return a scalar value, yes
00:35	hiredman	WizardofWestmarc: http://clojure.org/special_forms <-- the bit about let holds true in most binding forms in clojure
00:35	WizardofWestmarc	right
00:36	WizardofWestmarc	my mistake was missing the fact of how it was using the accumulator
00:36	WizardofWestmarc	I don't normally do reduce w/anything more then basic forms
00:36	cooldude127	WizardofWestmarc: yeah, glad that's cleared up
00:36	cooldude127	reduce isn't the obvious functional idiom
00:36	WizardofWestmarc	just stuff like adding a mass list of numbers generated somehow or the like
00:36	cooldude127	s/the/the most/
00:36	cooldude127	yeah
03:08	zakwilson	Am I correct in assuming that pmap works best when used with a CPU-intensive function and a small collection?
03:11	Cark	i don't know for the small collection part, but yes for the cpu intensive function
03:31	Lau_of_DK	Top of the morning gents
03:43	zakwilson	Good morning, Lau_of_DK
03:43	AWizzArd	Hi
03:44	zakwilson	Hi AWizzArd
06:57	AWizzArd	Schon so einiges an Deutschen hier ;-)
07:04	red_fish	I think I found a bug in http://clojure.org/refs http://paste.pocoo.org/show/100966/
07:04	red_fish	a race condition
07:07	AWizzArd	Can you say more about it?
07:12	vy	Why I couldn't require swank.core in here: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/100970/
07:13	Chousuke	vy: do you have a swank-clojure/swank/swank/ directory?
07:13	Chousuke	vy: you might try just adding swank-clojure/ into the classpath
07:14	Chousuke	instead of the swank subdir
07:14	Chousuke	since it seems to be part of the package structure.
07:14	vy	Hrm... Let me try that.
07:14	Chousuke	also, depending on where the swank.clj is, you might need to require 'swank.swank instead (to match swank/swank.clj)
07:15	vy	This time require'ing 'swank complains that: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate swank/util__init.class or swank/util.clj on classpath: (core.clj:0)
07:16	AWizzArd	seems that is already progress
07:16	AWizzArd	red_fish: can you please tell us more about the potential bug in refs?
07:16	vy	Yup, it obviously did. But this time it appears be requiring me to write swank.swank.util, which is quite ugly IMHO.
07:17	AWizzArd	vy: when you open the utl.clj file... what (ns ..) does it establish?
07:17	AWizzArd	It says (ns swank.util ..) right?
07:18	AWizzArd	So if the dir that contains the subdir swank is in your CP, then swank.swank.util seems to be right
07:18	Chousuke	is your swank-clojure recent?
07:18	vy	Oops! You're right, it probably says clojure/ns, which should be clojure.core/ns.
07:19	vy	Chousuke: Yep, but it doesn't support the clojure to clojure.core transfer.
07:19	Chousuke	huh
07:19	Chousuke	mine works just fine :/
07:19	vy	Huh?
07:20	vy	Am I trying to fix something already fixed in the HEAD?
07:20	Chousuke	last commit in the git repo was on Jan 13
07:20	vy	Brr!
07:29	vy	Chousuke: But still (require 'swank-clojure-autoload) requires a pre-set swank-clojure-jar-path and swank-clojure-extra-classpaths.
07:30	Chousuke	well, yeah
07:31	Chousuke	just set them? :/
07:31	vy	I do, but the README is missing mentioning about that gotcha, despite I submitted 2 repetitive bug reports about it.
07:32	vy	Chousuke: Hrm... Would you mind sharing some of your .emacs lines related with SLIME and Clojure?
07:34	Chousuke	vy: I doubt it's really helpful, but here: http://github.com/Chousuke/dotfiles/blob/56eafa24c73fdfaa974c434fad1080f090ef0300/Aquamacs-customizations.el
07:35	Chousuke	I wish I knew how to make that 'viper-in-more-modes things work with clojure-mode and/or slime though :(
07:36	Chousuke	it only works for elisp, and apparently it's supposed to work with slime too, but it doesn't.
07:36	Chousuke	and I have no clue why
08:30	gnuvince	Hi
08:48	red_fish	AWizzArd: It's a problem with LinkedBlockedQueue
08:48	red_fish	AWizzArd: It can stay in dosync and the resulting coll is out of order
08:48	red_fish	it can't stay
08:55	red_fish	rhickey: I found a race condition in the example of ref (http://clojure.org/refs) http://paste.pocoo.org/show/100985/
08:56	red_fish	rhickey: the output collection can be out of order
08:58	rhickey	red_fish: thanks, I'll check it out
09:09	rhickey	red_fish: that's a naming problem - was never designed to maintain order
09:12	rhickey	red_fish: I clarified the docs
09:14	rfgpfeiffer	there is an edge case with sets as functions
09:14	rfgpfeiffer	(#{true false nil} nil)
09:16	Chousuke	hmm
09:16	rhickey	rfgpfeiffer: only if you don't understand how they behave when used as functions
09:17	Chousuke	that might be a slight gotcha but I wouldn't consider it a real problem
09:18	rhickey	you always have to be more careful treating accessors as predicates when the values can be false/nil:
09:18	rhickey	(get {:a nil} :a)
09:20	rhickey	There was a time when (get #{:a} :a) -> true, and therefor (get #{nil} nil) -> true, but just returning booleans has a lot less utility
09:21	rhickey	user=> (filter #{\a \b \c \d} "fred")
09:21	rhickey	(\d)
09:23	vy	Isn't it possible to return multiple values in Clojure? If it is, then GET can return a second boolen argument telling whether the item is found or not. (Similar to GETHASH in CL.) Anyway, this is the 2 cents of a Clojure newbie.
09:23	rhickey	vy: no, it's not, otherwise yes, that would be nice.
09:25	rfgpfeiffer	I wrote some test cases for properties of algebraic structures like monoids. Is this something for contrib?
09:26	rhickey	rfgpfeiffer: could you post a description of your work on the group?
09:29	rfgpfeiffer	test if something behaves like a monoid: http://gist.github.com/51026
09:44	rhickey	rfgpfeiffer: I'd like to try that, but it's mssing some defs - closure-under? a-associative?
09:46	jbondeson	so rich, yesterday I was looking at the memoization function and I was wondering what your thoughts were addeding WeakHashMaps to clojure and using those for memoization.
09:47	jbondeson	it looks likes it would be fairly straight forward to wrap the WeakHashMap class to be useable by the clojure functions, the only real problem would be how to specify strong v weak
09:47	rfgpfeiffer	rhickey: http://gist.github.com/51030
09:50	rfgpfeiffer	actually, seqs are not a monoid, because the neutral element nil is not a seq
09:51	rhickey	rfgpfeiffer: neat - I think you might a different name than zero - maybe none or empty ?
09:51	gnuvince	rfgpfeiffer: is that a requisite or just something statically typed languages need to have?
09:51	rfgpfeiffer	neutral, maybe
09:53	rfgpfeiffer	gnuvince: It is for test cases
09:54	rfgpfeiffer	gnuvince: When you think about your data in terms of abstract algebra(like seqs), you can unify your test cases in terms of abstract algebra
09:57	jbondeson	it is officially too early in the morning for me to be thinking that abstract ;)
09:58	karmazilla	is there such a thing as concrete algebra?
09:59	rfgpfeiffer	yeah
09:59	rfgpfeiffer	1+1=2
09:59	rfgpfeiffer	pretty concrete
09:59	cooldude127	very concrete
10:00	jbondeson	only for small values of 1 though
10:00	karmazilla	I can follow that
10:00	cooldude127	let's define small
10:01	karmazilla	,(def small 1)
10:01	clojurebot	Titim gan �ir� ort.
10:01	cooldude127	clojurebot: what does that mean?
10:01	clojurebot	excusez-moi
10:01	rfgpfeiffer	natural numbers form a monoid with +. 0 is a neutral element
10:01	cooldude127	quit dodging my questions
10:02	jbondeson	,(let [big+ #(+ 1 (+ %1 %2))] (big+ 1 1))
10:02	clojurebot	3
10:03	jbondeson	see!
10:03	cooldude127	DIFFERENT OPERATION
10:03	jbondeson	oh
10:03	jbondeson	fine
10:04	cooldude127	lol
10:05	rfgpfeiffer	the natural numbers only form a semigroup with big+, because (big+ 0 0) isn't 0
10:06	rfgpfeiffer	see? its easy
10:06	jbondeson	yes, but that's to be expected from large values of 0
10:07	cooldude127	oh god
10:20	Chouser-away	rhickey: are we allowed to use 'definline'?
10:21	cooldude127	lol
10:26	bstephenson	gm group. newbie here searching for a sample project or code that uses clojure-contrib.sql and accesses SQL Server. Does anyone out there have anything like that?
10:30	vy	Shouldn't (assert (= 42 (max 2 42 5 4))) line be replaced with (assert (= 42 (mymax 2 42 5 4))) in http://clojure.org/special_forms page?
10:31	cooldude127	vy: yes
10:32	cooldude127	i noticed that the other day
10:48	Chouser	vy: fixed, thanks.
10:51	cooldude127	woooo
10:52	vy	Ok, I won't talk about porting documentation to a more consistent format (LaTeX, DocBook, etc.) stuff.
10:53	Chouser	vy: why not?
10:53	vy	AFAIS, developers ignore it.
10:54	vy	Chouser: See http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/18f3147d875b236d
10:55	Chouser	sure enough. :-)
11:00	eyeris	Is there any policie or opposition to including examples on the /api page?
11:00	eyeris	policy*
11:01	eyeris	Or is the Wiki the better place for that?
11:05	Chouser	the api page is directly created from the docstrings. That's the closest thing I have to an answer to your question.
11:05	Chouser	sorry it's not very close.
11:05	eyeris	That's helpful. Now all I have to do is submit a patch to those and see if it gets denied :)
11:05	eyeris	I think I will work on the Wiki before doing that though.
11:06	Chouser	I thought I saw some other wiki where somebody was trying to provide a comprehensive set of examples for all clojure functions.
11:08	eyeris	Was this it? http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/By_Example
11:17	hiredman	clojurebot: where are the examples?
11:17	clojurebot	examples is http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Examples/API_Examples
11:18	eyeris	Sweet
11:20	drewr	What's the current recommended practice on created custom exception classes? I thought I remember that proxy is verboten.
11:20	Chouser	drewr: proxy doesn't help because the name of your new class isn't very useful
11:21	Chouser	drewr: so one obvious option is gen-class
11:22	Chouser	drewr: I had some thoughts on an alternate mechanism: http://paste.lisp.org/display/72867
11:22	drewr	Yeah, I basically want to do "class MyError(StandardError): pass" in Python.
11:22	Chouser	drewr: I'd be happy to turn that into a usable contrib library, but I've hesitated so far because I don't have any use cases myself.
11:23	drewr	I keep doing (throw (Exception. "...")) which doesn't seem helpful to consumers of my libs.
11:24	drewr	They have no granularity in their catching.
11:24	danlarkin	I'm +1 for a common idiom for custom exception classes
11:25	danlarkin	right, throwing (Exception. "..") isn't as helpful as it could be
11:25	hiredman	clojurebot: exceptions?
11:25	clojurebot	I don't understand.
11:25	hiredman	clojurebot: exceptions is http://wuhrr.wordpress.com/2007/11/22/java-exceptions-list/
11:25	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
11:25	Chouser	danlarkin: my question is, does the stuff in my "musings" provide sufficient features to take the place of actual Exception subclasses in many cases
11:26	hiredman	next to you can pick a more suitable exception from the list to throw
11:26	hiredman	instead of Exception
11:27	hiredman	clojurebot: exceptions is also http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/Exception.html
11:27	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
11:27	hiredman	^- lists most of the known subclasses
11:28	danlarkin	yes, but sometimes an exceptional case doesn't fit into one of the existing subclasses
11:29	drewr	Chouser: I'd love to see something along those lines become conventional.
11:30	jbondeson	anybody having problems with the latest clojure-contrib?
11:31	danlarkin	Chouser: seems like a lot of work to solve a problem that's already solved... with custom exception classes
11:31	Chouser	drewr: ok. well, it has the benefit of throwing any particular Java exception if not in a 'handling' scope, so throwers could use it without demanding that catchers do.
11:31	Chouser	danlarkin: it has extra features beyond Java exceptions. :-)
11:32	Chouser	and doesn't require pre-compilation like Java a custom Java exception currently does.
11:34	Chouser	it's actually not very much code -- I could put it in contrib and see if anybody ends up using it.
11:34	Chouser	any suggestions for better names than 'handling' and 'handle'?
11:34	Chouser	of the equiv. of 'try' and 'catch'?
11:35	Chouser	'attempt' and 'absorb' :-P
11:36	danlarkin	with-errors and handle?
11:36	danlarkin	naming sucks :-/
11:38	drewr	Naming has caused me to completely give up on projects before.
11:40	Nafai	drewr: Heh. :)
11:41	drewr	Yo Nafai!
11:41	Nafai	Hey drewr
11:48	Chouser	hm, I think I could still use 'catch' and 'finally', thought that might be more confusing than it's worth
11:57	shoover	Chouser: is this something like CL's handler-case, handler-bind, restart-case?
12:00	Chouser	shoover: you tell me. :-)
12:00	Chouser	I don't know CL well enough to know.
12:00	Chouser	I think I said last time this came up that I would read up on those.
12:01	shoover	:) it took me a long time to read that chapter in Practical Common Lisp
12:01	Chouser	Is PCL online for free anywhere?
12:02	Chouser	might be easier than reading the hyperspec
12:02	shoover	clojurebot: CL conditions is http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/beyond-exception-handling-conditions-and-restarts.html
12:02	clojurebot	In Ordnung
12:03	Chouser	shoover: thanks
12:03	shoover	handler-case is like a try/catch--stack unwinds to the handler that matches the exception
12:03	shoover	handler-bind is a dynamic binding thing that lets you provide handler to run at the stack level where the error happens
12:03	shoover	then there's restart-case, but I'm running out of steam
12:04	Chouser	s'okay. I'll read that chapter and/or the hyperspec.
12:04	Chouser	It's more fun to create than to learn, but the creations are better if you learn first.
12:06	shoover	true that. my sense is that you're building the thing, but maybe CL will provide understanding to help with names (or hurt)
12:07	Chouser	right. If it's possible to build something that works identically or very nearly so, reusing the names would be very helpful.
12:07	Chouser	if it's not possible or desirable for some reason to emulate CL in this way, I should probably try to avoid names that are too similar.
12:13	Chouser	CL has a hierarchy of condition classes, just like Java has a hierarchy of exception classes.
12:13	Chouser	I wonder if that tends to be as shallow in CL as it is in Java.
12:14	Chouser	supporting that would make my code a good deal more complicated, I think, if it's even possible.
12:16	technomancy	clojurebot: forget slime-installer
12:16	clojurebot	slime is icky
12:16	technomancy	clojurebot: slime-installer is http://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/blob/0f28b61de90ce8a09d75bf1668ef3f1c200f9c52/clojure-mode.el#L560
12:16	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
12:17	hiredman	Chouser: the gview widget is neat
12:22	Chouser	hiredman: oh, from my blog?
12:23	hiredman	Chouser: yes
12:23	Chouser	I need to update that with a note about clojure.inspector
12:23	Chouser	which has some surprisingly similar code in it
12:26	Chouser	,(inspect-tree {:a [4 5 6] :b [1 2 3] :c [7 8 9]})
12:26	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: inspect-tree in this context
12:26	Chouser	,(use 'clojure.contrib.inspector)
12:26	clojurebot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/inspector__init.class or clojure/contrib/inspector.clj on classpath:
12:26	Chouser	bah
12:26	Chouser	,(use 'clojure.inspector)
12:27	clojurebot	nil
12:27	Chouser	,(inspect-tree {:a [4 5 6] :b [1 2 3] :c [7 8 9]})
12:27	clojurebot	java.awt.HeadlessException: No X11 DISPLAY variable was set, but this program performed an operation which requires it.
12:27	hiredman	hwa
12:27	Chouser	heh. anyway, something like that
12:33	rfgpfeiffer	,2
12:33	hiredman	,(identity 2)
12:33	clojurebot	2
12:34	rfgpfeiffer	,(+ 3 4)
12:34	clojurebot	7
12:34	jbondeson	sooo... anyone with commit access to clojure-contrib want to remove the private def of mod from math.clj?
12:34	jbondeson	last night it was added to clojure.core
12:35	Chouser	jbondeson: is it in your way?
12:36	jbondeson	i just modified it locally and rebuilt, i was just letting people know.
12:36	jbondeson	took me a while to figure out what happened.
12:36	Chouser	ah, ok.
12:43	technomancy	so on the contributor agreement it asks you to list your usernames on different project web sites... I included my github info, just in case. =)
12:56	Chouser	technomancy: :-)
13:30	karmazilla	,(let [s (.keySet {:a 1})] [(set? s) (ifn? s)])
13:30	clojurebot	Excuse me?
13:30	karmazilla	clojurebot hates me
13:31	hiredman	oops
13:32	hiredman	sorry, when you were trying to break clojurebot I made him ignore you
13:32	karmazilla	aww
13:32	jbondeson	so, i have a fun one.
13:32	karmazilla	I promise I won't break him again... willfully
13:33	jbondeson	i have a rational that returns "NaN" when trying to float it
13:33	hiredman	karmazilla: try now
13:33	jbondeson	and the denominator isn't 0...
13:34	karmazilla	,(let [s (.keySet {:a 1})] [(set? s) (ifn? s)])
13:34	clojurebot	java.lang.reflect.InvocationTargetException
13:34	hiredman	,(.keySet {:a 1})
13:34	clojurebot	java.lang.reflect.InvocationTargetException
13:35	hiredman	(let [s (set (keys {:a 1}))] [(set? s) (ifn? s)])
13:35	jbondeson	i guess with ratios that have 10k characters in the string representation it just dies
13:35	jbondeson	which is odd
13:35	hiredman	,(let [s (set (keys {:a 1}))] [(set? s) (ifn? s)])
13:35	clojurebot	[true true]
13:36	karmazilla	the point I'm trying to make is that the code I pasted gives [false false]
13:36	hiredman	no, it gives an exception
13:37	karmazilla	in what version of Clojure? I'm on trunk
13:37	hiredman	ah
13:37	hiredman	latest svn does return [false false]
13:38	hiredman	looks like .keySet no longer returns a set
13:38	hiredman	or maybe it does
13:38	hiredman	it is an inner class
13:38	karmazilla	it looks like an oversight to me. I think it should be [true true], but maybe there's A Very Good reason
13:39	hiredman	user=> (set? (.keySet {:a 1}))
13:39	hiredman	false
13:39	hiredman	karmazilla: maybe you should stop calling java methods
13:40	hiredman	and use (comp set keys)
13:40	karmazilla	why? Java interop is part of what makes clojure practical and useful to me
13:41	jbondeson	how long of a clojure expression will clojurebot take, hireman?
13:41	hiredman	jbondeson: only one way to find out
13:41	jbondeson	\m/
13:41	jbondeson	,(let [sqrt2 #(loop [x %2 i 0] (if (> i %3) x (recur (/ (+ x (/ %1 x)) 2) (inc i))))] (float (sqrt2 (/ 41 20) 2 7)))
13:41	clojurebot	1.4317821
13:41	jbondeson	,(let [sqrt2 #(loop [x %2 i 0] (if (> i %3) x (recur (/ (+ x (/ %1 x)) 2) (inc i))))] (float (sqrt2 (/ 41 20) 2 8)))
13:41	clojurebot	NaN
13:41	jbondeson	there we go
13:42	jbondeson	trying to calculate a rational sqrt
13:42	jbondeson	and it fails to convert back to a float
13:42	hiredman	karmazilla: rhickey_ and Chouser seem to be out, so you could take it to the group
13:44	karmazilla	hmm... but every change I've ever proposed to Clojure has been rejected. Don't know if I dare
13:44	jbondeson	oh well, i'll look into that after lunch
13:44	hiredman	karmazilla: there is always a first time
13:47	jawolfe	Hi all
13:47	jawolfe	I have a couple posts that have gone by on the mailing list without getting a real response, so I figured I'd bring them here
13:49	jawolfe	I guess several of them are for Rich; are you here currently?
13:51	jawolfe	Anyway, if anyone else wants to discuss, I have a number of proposals for core, and I'd like to hear people's opinions
13:51	jawolfe	- Faster set operations (http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/29609929e94f279c?hl=en#)
13:52	jawolfe	- 0-arg distinct? returns true, not an exception (so (apply distinct? nil) = true)
13:52	jawolfe	- rewrite concat so that (apply concat seq) doesn't evaluate the first three elements of seq
13:52	jawolfe	- make every?, not-every?, some, not-any? take multiple seq args like map, i.e., (every? not= [1 2 3] [2 3 4])
13:52	jawolfe	- allow arguments to merge-with after the first to be lists of pairs.
13:53	jawolfe	- consider aliases when reading namespace-qualified keywords (http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/dbf2cd9130eb06a3?hl=en#)
13:53	jawolfe	If anyone likes or dislikes any of these, I'd like to hear it ... I'll be hanging around here for a while.
13:58	duck1123	I liked that 0-arg distinct one
13:58	duck1123	nil contains no duplicates, why shouldn't it return true
13:59	jawolfe	exactly, thanks.
14:00	duck1123	so, (every? not= [1 2 3] [2 3 4]) => true?
14:01	jawolfe	That would be the idea.
14:01	jawolfe	Just a shortcut for (every? identity (map f ....))
14:01	jawolfe	That's the one I care about the least
14:03	duck1123	yeah, I'm not sure how well that one would work out
14:03	jawolfe	there's no down-side, really, since every? currently only accepts two arguments
14:03	jawolfe	But there is a short idiom for the same thing
14:04	duck1123	wasn't there talk about giving map-like functionality to a whole bunch of functions? What ever happened to that?
14:04	jawolfe	I'm not sure, I'm still pretty new to Clojure ... unless you're talking about this thread http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/134642cc76de17f7/97ac071e5d1e739c?hl=en&
14:05	jawolfe	Hi, Rich?
14:06	Cark	what would be a nice tool to investigate a memory leak ,
14:06	jawolfe	OK, thanks ... can I ask you a few quick questions later?
14:06	Cark	?
14:06	jawolfe	Cark: try YourKit
14:06	duck1123	doesn't the ns-qualifying work for ::keywords?
14:07	Cark	jawolfe : thanks !
14:07	duck1123	I tried that the other day and it was doing exactly that
14:07	jawolfe	you can get the free version http://www.yourkit.com/eap/index.jsp
14:07	hiredman	duck1123: he is talking about aliases
14:07	jawolfe	Yes, :: works
14:07	jawolfe	hiredman: yes
14:07	hiredman	like you (require '[ foo.bar :as foo])
14:08	duck1123	right I did ::date/Date and it turned into :clojue.contrib.date/Date
14:08	jawolfe	Then, you still must :foo.bar/keyword
14:08	jawolfe	oooh
14:08	hiredman	:foo/blarg is not the same as :foo.bar/Blarg
14:08	hiredman	er
14:08	jawolfe	really ?
14:08	hiredman	jawolfe: I am explaing the current state of play
14:08	hiredman	or trying to
14:08	hiredman	oh, you are talking to duck1123
14:09	jawolfe	hiredman: duck1123 is correct
14:09	jawolfe	::foo/blarg does what I want
14:09	duck1123	one issue down :)
14:09	hiredman	well, something new everyday
14:09	jawolfe	Very cool ... just need docs for that now :)
14:10	jawolfe	I'll resurrect my thread on the group to make sure others hear about it
14:10	jawolfe	duck1123: thanks!
14:10	duck1123	np, I didn't know it did that till the other day when I was trying to help out cooldude
14:13	danlarkin	heyyyoo lots of updates to clojure-mode, hooray
14:14	technomancy	danlarkin: yeah, glad to see the maintainer is coming back online
14:14	technomancy	danlarkin: did you see my post about M-x clojure-install ?
14:14	danlarkin	no, point me to it?
14:15	technomancy	danlarkin: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/dfce84232ea8cf7a/e3320bc433eb910a?lnk=gst&q=slime#e3320bc433eb910a
14:16	technomancy	danlarkin: just a response to all the "how do you install slime" questions we seem to get in here.
14:17	danlarkin	technomancy: is it a good idea to push newbies to use git for clojure and clojure-contrib instead of the "official" google code svn repos?
14:18	technomancy	danlarkin: given that they're synched automatically, I think so
14:18	technomancy	the only downside is that checkouts take a lot longer, so if that turns out to be a big irritant I could be convinced to switch to svn
14:18	kefka	If I have a sorted-map, and I want to do a lookup that returns, on not-found, the highest (or lowest) entry below (above) the target key, what's the best way to do that?
14:19	technomancy	danlarkin: I like being able to list only three dependencies: git, jvm, and ant; none of this legacy stuff.
14:19	kefka	,(isa? (sorted-map) java.util.TreeMap)
14:19	clojurebot	false
14:19	Chouser	I use git and the official google code repos
14:19	danlarkin	technomancy: well it's not legacy, it's still in use!
14:20	technomancy	danlarkin: half tounge-in-cheek, but I was also referring to slime's use of CVS
14:21	technomancy	(yuck yuck)
14:21	danlarkin	technomancy: but aside from nit-picking git/svn for clojure&contrib, I like it
14:23	technomancy	danlarkin: cool. waiting to see what jochu says about it.
14:23	hiredman	kefka: that sounds like a real pain in the ass
14:24	kefka	hiredman: I think the best way is to convert it to something that implements TreeMap
14:24	kefka	in the Java API
14:24	Chouser	(doc subseq)
14:24	clojurebot	sc must be a sorted collection, test(s) one of <, <=, > or >=. Returns a seq of those entries with keys ek for which (test (.. sc comparator (compare ek key)) 0) is true; arglists ([sc test key] [sc start-test start-key end-test end-key])
14:27	Chouser	,(apply sorted-map (interleave (range 10) (iterate inc 100)))
14:27	clojurebot	{0 100, 1 101, 2 102, 3 103, 4 104, 5 105, 6 106, 7 107, 8 108, 9 109}
14:27	Chouser	,(first (subseq (apply sorted-map (interleave (range 10) (iterate inc 85))) > 4))
14:27	clojurebot	java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/core$bound_fn__4473$fn__4475
14:27	Chouser	hm. that worked for me.
14:28	Chouser	kefka: anyway, that looks like your building block.
14:28	kefka	Chouser: If you're treying to answer my problem, I actually need O(log N) performance
14:28	kefka	Chouser: I can obviously iterate through the map, but I'm trying to use its sorted/binary-tree structure to get O(log N) lookup time
14:29	Chouser	subseq does this
14:30	kefka	Chouser: Ok, cool.
14:30	Chouser	subseq takes a sorted collection and a key, returns a seq starting at the given key's location
14:30	Chouser	I think. :-)
14:31	Chouser	I mean, that's what it returns, and I think it's O(log N) to get the seq started.
14:32	kefka	Chouser: Yeah. I guess I assumed subseq would behave like CL's subseq
14:32	kefka	,(subseq "foobar" 2 4)
14:32	clojurebot	java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/core$bound_fn__4473$fn__4475
14:33	Chouser	clojurebot's got some kind of issue with subseq.
14:33	kefka	Chouser: Well, it doesn't work at the repl either.
14:33	kefka	Chouser: because "foobar" is not a sorted collection
14:33	Chouser	right
14:36	kefka	Chouser: What is Clojure's "best practices" analog of subseq?
14:36	clojurebot	svn rev 1224; Added doc string to ns macro, patch from mb
14:36	clojurebot	svn rev 1225; Added doc strings for many vars, patch from Jarkko
14:36	clojurebot	svn rev 1226; made :default a keyword arg to defmulti, added support for docstring and metadata map, patch from mb
14:36	clojurebot	svn rev 1227; added mod, patch from Mark Engelberg
14:36	clojurebot	svn rev 1228; made (stream astream) identity
14:37	hiredman	,(first (subseq (apply sorted-map (interleave (range 10) (iterate inc 85))) > 4))
14:37	clojurebot	[5 90]
14:37	hiredman	hmmm
14:37	hiredman	better make sure you are running a recent svn
14:37	Chouser	kefka: on a seq or a vector or... ?
14:38	Chouser	,(take 3 (drop 4 "commonlisp"))
14:38	clojurebot	(\o \n \l)
14:48	jawolfe	Chouser: did you see my thread on faster set operations?
14:49	Chouser	jawolfe: by reordering arguments based on size, right?
14:49	jawolfe	Chouser: yeah
14:49	Chouser	no, I didn't.
14:49	jawolfe	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/29609929e94f279c?hl=en#
14:49	Chouser	er, wait, that's not right. I must have.
14:49	jawolfe	haha
14:50	jawolfe	Anyway, what are your thoughts on that ?
14:52	Chouser	seems fine. I've not used clojure.set much, but I don't know any reason why your suggestions would be bad.
14:53	jawolfe	ok, thanks.
14:53	jawolfe	as a "meta" question ... I've had several threads like this that I think are good ideas
14:53	jawolfe	And nobody on the group disagrees
14:53	jawolfe	But, Rich never chimes in with approval (or disapproval)
14:54	jawolfe	What's the right thing to do here?
14:54	Chouser	that's a good question
14:54	jawolfe	Should I drop it? Keep bumping the thread? Or come here to troll for Rich (you can guess which I decided on :) )
14:55	jawolfe	Or just post the issue anyway, I guess, as a final option
14:55	jawolfe	(which is what I did for the .hashCode bug)
14:55	danlarkin	job cuts at sun: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/23/sun_first_cuts/ :(
14:57	technomancy	speaking of sun, does clojure work fine on openjdk, or is it recommended to only use sun's version?
14:57	Chouser	jawolfe: Rich assured me not too long ago that he still reads every post to the google group, so you can assume he's seen your suggestions.
14:58	WizardofWestmarc	well, it ran on Azule which isn't pure sun jvm correct?
14:58	jawolfe	Chouser: OK, so do I take a lack of response as "no thanks"
14:58	Chouser	jawolfe: or perhaps as a "not yet"?
14:58	jawolfe	Chouser: Since, e.g., he never chimed in on the .hashCode thread, but when I posted an issue anyway, he fixed the bug pretty fast.
14:59	duck1123	I have to give credit to _anyone_ that can keep up with every message to the group, especially someone as busy as rich
14:59	jawolfe	Chouser: if "not yet", then should I bring it up again later? If so, when?
14:59	WizardofWestmarc	yeah, the group's putting up something like 1800 posts/month now
15:00	Chouser	jawolfe: I think it would be acceptible to put a "Hey Rich, should I create an issue for this" on the end of the thread.
15:00	jawolfe	Chouser: It seems to me that non-controversial changes should live on some sort of "issues" page, even if not the official one on Google gcode
15:00	technomancy	up to 1355 ML members now; nice
15:00	jawolfe	Chouser: OK, but the two threads I'm talking about already have one of those at the end of the initial message:)
15:00	WizardofWestmarc	ML members?
15:00	WizardofWestmarc	mailing list?
15:00	technomancy	mailing list
15:00	jawolfe	Chouser: OK to bump them by adding it again?
15:00	WizardofWestmarc	crazy
15:00	technomancy	WizardofWestmarc: google still considers it "low traffic" for some reason
15:01	Chouser	if he says "no", there's no point is bringing it up anymore. if he says "yes", your path forward is clear.
15:01	WizardofWestmarc	...really?
15:01	technomancy	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure <= in the sidebar
15:01	WizardofWestmarc	'cause it's keeping pace with the Django group
15:01	Chouser	if still no response, well, your guess is as good as mine
15:01	jawolfe	Chouser: OK, thanks.
15:01	rhickey	jawolfe: did I not say that your stuff wa sbest for contrib for now?
15:02	jawolfe	rhickey: yes, you did, specifically with respect to map-when and so on
15:02	rhickey	i simply can't take every suggestion for core
15:02	jawolfe	rhickey: i know
15:02	jawolfe	there were four specific things for core i posted after that
15:02	jawolfe	all changes to existing functions
15:02	rhickey	not now
15:03	jawolfe	ok, thanks.
15:03	jawolfe	how about faster set operations?
15:03	duck1123	I like that contrib is the staging area for stuff that may eventually end up in core
15:04	jawolfe	duck1123: I like that too
15:04	jawolfe	but certain things, like making (distinct?) return true ...
15:04	gnuvince	Speaking on contrib, would greatest/least be an interesting addition?
15:04	jawolfe	it doesn't make sense to add a new version to contrib just for this change
15:04	WizardofWestmarc	It makes sense, see how stuff works in practice before determining if it's worth putting in core. Plus I like a small core
15:05	jbondeson	i like your greatest least gnuvince, i know i'll be using it in my apps. but i'm not a registered contributor sooooo...
15:05	gnuvince	Chouser: what do you think?
15:06	jawolfe	gnuvince: what do you think about maximal-elements ?
15:06	jbondeson	ok, so now that i'm back from lunch, anyone consider themself knowledgable about the rational datatypes for math?
15:06	gnuvince	jawolfe: it that an existing lib?
15:06	jawolfe	it's on my list of proposed utilities for contrib
15:07	gnuvince	Do you have code anywhere?
15:07	jawolfe	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/134642cc76de17f7/97ac071e5d1e739c?hl=en&
15:07	jbondeson	does approximately the same thing, but rather than grabbing the first max, it grabs everything that is maximal
15:07	jawolfe	you can get least, greatest, least-by, greatest-by from it ...
15:07	gnuvince	jawolfe: here's my code: http://github.com/gnuvince/clojure-greatest-least/blob/777edc6acfe016cb33f77d027cf5b6be2f5d888f/greatest-least.clj
15:08	duck1123	I just wish there was a better way to browse documentation for the fns in contrib. I was using clj-doc, but I think it's getting out of date and I got a bunch of errors when I tried running it locally.
15:09	jawolfe	gnuvince: same basic idea
15:09	technomancy	duck1123: slime's C-c C-d d doesn't cut it for you?
15:09	jawolfe	sometimes I want something like a random maximal element though, which is why getting all of them can be nice
15:09	duck1123	Thankfully, reading clojure source code as a means of documentation isn't all that painful
15:10	gnuvince	jawolfe: an random maximal element?
15:10	duck1123	technomancy: that works if you know what you're looking for, not if you just want to browse to see what's new that you're not using
15:11	technomancy	duck1123: yeah, a weekly "what's new" column would be awesome
15:11	jawolfe	gnuvince: i.e., (let [richest (maximal-elements second {:bob 10 :bill 20 :sarah 20})] (random-element richest))
15:12	gnuvince	So it'd return either [:bill 20] or [:sarah 20]?
15:12	jawolfe	or maybe I want all the richest people: (map first (maximal-elements second {:bob 10 :bill 20 :sarah 20}))
15:12	jawolfe	yeah
15:12	jawolfe	I actually use that in a few places, when you want to make sure there is fair tie-breaking
15:13	jawolfe	Chouser: If fast set operations are also "not now", what do you think about putting them in contrib
15:13	jawolfe	I don't like the idea of duplicating functionality, but orders of magnitude performance improvement can be useful ...
15:15	jawolfe	gnuvince: how are least and greatest different from (min ...) and (max ...) ?
15:16	gnuvince	jawolfe: min and max work with numbers only.
15:16	gnuvince	,(max "hello" "world")
15:16	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
15:16	jawolfe	gnuvince: ah, right
15:17	gnuvince	> (greatest "hello" "world")
15:17	gnuvince	"world"
15:18	jawolfe	gnuvince: my maximal-elements only works with numbers too, I guess
15:18	gnuvince	Yes
15:18	gnuvince	,(> "hello" "world")
15:18	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
15:18	jawolfe	gnuvince: maybe you could add "all-greatest-by", ...
15:18	gnuvince	My implementation works with compare
15:18	jawolfe	gnuvince: although then there will be 8 :)
15:19	gnuvince	jawolfe: I'll do that.
15:19	gnuvince	Do you have a github account?
15:19	jawolfe	gnuvince: nope, not yet ... learning git as we speak
15:19	gnuvince	ok
15:20	jawolfe	gnuvince: I think Chouser said it was OK to post a contrib issue for maximal-elements, and I'm happy to pass that on to you
15:20	jawolfe	if you want to post yours instead
15:20	jawolfe	that would make sense to me .
15:20	gnuvince	jawolfe: I'll see about adding a function to return all the greatest/least elements
15:20	gnuvince	Then I'll submit it to Chouser for consideration
15:21	jawolfe	gnuvince: thanks.
15:21	gnuvince	Thank you; I hadn't thought about the issue of multiple greatest values.
15:24	eyeris	Should the api documentation for (require) say "root resource <classpath>/x/y/z.clj" instead of "root resource <classpath>/x/y/z/z.clj"? I see the former in practice.
15:24	Chouser	eyeris: yes, that's out of date
15:27	Chouser	this is cool: http://www.trampolinesystems.com/blog/machines/2009/01/22/jruby-clojure/
15:29	danlarkin	Chouser: yeah I saw that... very rad
15:29	eyeris	clojurebot where are the examples?
15:30	Chousuke	clojurebot: examples
15:30	clojurebot	examples is http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Examples/API_Examples
15:30	Chousuke	eyeris: don't forget the :
15:30	eyeris	Yeah, I normally just /msg him
15:30	eyeris	or her
15:31	eyeris	whatever :)
15:31	mibu	is there a simple way to strip a qualified name symbol's namespace part and just leave the name part? I want to write a simple utility to cleanup macroexpand-1's output so it's easier to read
15:32	danlarkin	(doc name)
15:33	clojurebot	Returns the name String of a symbol or keyword.; arglists ([x])
15:33	eyeris	What mistake am I making in my (ns) usage that would cause this exception? http://pastebin.ca/1316279
15:33	danlarkin	mibu: name
15:33	mibu	danlarkin: thanks
15:34	hiredman	eyeris: drop the (:refer-clojure) bit
15:34	hiredman	clojure.core is refered automatically (unless stuff)
15:35	eyeris	Ok. That makes sense. However removing that didn't change the behaviour.
15:35	hiredman	eyeris: there is more in the file right?
15:35	eyeris	Right
15:36	hiredman	you have a map somewhere that says something like {true }
15:36	hiredman	,(hash-map true)
15:36	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: true
15:36	eyeris	Oh. Why is the exception on line 0 then?
15:36	hiredman	shrug
15:36	eyeris	:)
15:36	technomancy	sweet; imenu support merged into clojure-mode
15:36	Chouser	I'd look at the rest of the stack trace. might get a useful line number deeper in
15:37	hiredman	,(identity {true })
15:37	clojurebot	1
15:37	hiredman	huh?
15:37	hiredman	,(identity {true})
15:37	clojurebot	1
15:37	Chouser	heh
15:37	hiredman	,(do {true })
15:37	clojurebot	1
15:37	hiredman	wtf
15:38	hiredman	,(do {:a })
15:38	clojurebot	1
15:38	gnuvince	,(keys {:a})
15:38	clojurebot	1
15:38	gnuvince	,(values {:a})
15:38	clojurebot	1
15:38	gnuvince	peculiar...
15:38	WizardofWestmarc	is 1 the new 42?
15:39	hiredman	looks like it must be partly a clojurebot bug
15:39	hiredman	at a repl with a recent svn I get
15:39	hiredman	user=> (do {:a })
15:39	hiredman	{}
15:39	hiredman	which is not 1
15:39	Chouser	,(= 1 {})
15:39	clojurebot	false
15:39	Chouser	,(= 1 (do {:a}))
15:39	clojurebot	1
15:39	gnuvince	,(= 1 {:a})
15:39	clojurebot	1
15:39	eyeris	The stack trace doesn't mention any other lines in my file. However it ends with '... 10 more lines'
15:39	WizardofWestmarc	,(+ 5 5)
15:39	clojurebot	10
15:39	Chouser	eyeris: you're in slime?
15:39	eyeris	Is there a switch to make it show the entire backtrace?
15:40	WizardofWestmarc	... so not EVERYTHING is borked
15:40	eyeris	Chouser: no, running from the cmd line
15:40	Chouser	eyeris: oh, then the 10 more lines should be there too
15:41	Chouser	java prints the stack with frames in order, but broken into chunks that are printed in reverse order
15:41	Chouser	I think it thinks it's being helpful.
15:41	hiredman	,(do {:a :b 1})
15:41	clojurebot	3
15:42	Chousuke	huh?
15:42	hiredman	Word
15:43	eyeris	Apparently the problem really is with that (ns) form
15:43	eyeris	I get the same error if I try to run that alone
15:44	hiredman	oh
15:44	hiredman	and when you use :use you don't quote the following forms
15:46	eyeris	I don't understand.
15:47	hiredman	(:use '(compojure.http
15:48	hiredman	-> (:use (compojure.http
15:49	eyeris	(ns wiscaid (:use (compojure.http [servlet routes])))
15:49	eyeris	That results in the same error
15:50	eyeris	I thought I had to quote the prefix list
15:50	hiredman	not with ns
15:50	eyeris	Then why would that line fail?
15:51	karmazilla	the vector?
15:51	hiredman	also
15:51	hiredman	yeah
15:51	hiredman	the vector
15:51	eyeris	oh
15:51	eyeris	righ
15:51	eyeris	I just figured that out
15:51	hiredman	(ns wiscaid (:use (compojure.http servlet routes)))
15:51	eyeris	as you were typing it
15:51	eyeris	Why does :require use a vector?
15:51	hiredman	because require is different
15:52	mrsolo	hi how do i pass java staticmethod as argument?
15:52	hiredman	you don't
15:52	mrsolo	can i partial it even?
15:52	hiredman	no
15:52	hiredman	you use #()
15:52	eyeris	hiredman Nice answer :)
15:52	hiredman	#(some/staticmethod %)
15:53	hiredman	clojurebot: why are you doing this to me?
15:53	clojurebot	why not?
15:53	karmazilla	lol
15:53	hiredman	clojurebot: just work correctly!
15:53	clojurebot	Huh?
15:53	mrsolo	thanks :-)
15:54	karmazilla	hiredman: I didn't break it
15:55	hiredman	hmmm
15:56	hiredman	hmmm
15:56	hiredman	user=> (seq? {:a})
15:56	hiredman	false
15:56	hiredman	oh, it wouldn't be
15:57	Chouser	hiredman: {:a} is not a valid form -- I wouldn't expect any kind of consistent results.
15:57	gnuvince	hiredman: this only hapens in clojurebot.
15:57	gnuvince	You get an exception in the Repl.
15:57	hiredman	I am not getting an exception at the repl
15:57	karmazilla	I didn't get an exception in my REPL
15:58	gnuvince	user=> {:a}
15:58	gnuvince	java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: 1 (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
15:58	karmazilla	svn 1128
15:59	karmazilla	*1228
15:59	hiredman	but clojurebot should return that exception
15:59	gnuvince	I'll update...
15:59	gnuvince	,(/ 1 0)
15:59	clojurebot	java.lang.ArithmeticException: Divide by zero
15:59	eyeris	This (ns) form evaluates without a problem alone. But if I put anything else in the file after it, it throws an exception: http://pastebin.ca/1316306
15:59	hiredman	ah
16:00	gnuvince	Revision: 1228
16:00	hiredman	the reader does not throw an exception if {:a} is wrapped in another expression
16:00	gnuvince	user=> {:a}
16:00	gnuvince	java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: 1 (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
16:00	hiredman	try (seq {:a})
16:00	gnuvince	nil
16:01	gnuvince	eyeris: I'm not sure that you can have multiple :use and :require
16:01	hiredman	gnuvince: I have
16:01	hiredman	actually
16:01	hiredman	maybe I haven't
16:02	gnuvince	try using the form: (:use (compojure file-utils jetty) (compojure.http servlet routes))
16:02	eyeris	Same behaviour
16:02	hiredman	I dunno if you can use lists in require like that
16:03	gnuvince	The documentation on ns could probably use a little polish
16:03	hiredman	A libspec is a lib name or a vector containing a lib name followed by options expressed as sequential keywords and arguments.
16:03	hiredman	http://clojure.org/api#toc449
16:03	eyeris	Right. To me that means I need a vector if I want to use the :as keyword.
16:04	eyeris	Perhaps I can't use that in the :require macro.
16:04	jbondeson	i figured out what's happening with the (float large-rational), it's trying to do naive float conversion by turning the numerator and denominator into floats individually, and if they're too big? Infinity. And as we all know (/ Infinity Infinity) => NaN
16:04	hiredman	try [dk.bestinclass clojureql :as sql]
16:04	eyeris	But if the documentation says "Use :require in the ns macro in preference to calling this directly." then it should spend it's time on the (ns) docs instead of the (require) docs :()
16:05	eyeris	hiredman That gives a different exception: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: Keyword
16:05	hiredman	ok
16:05	hiredman	yes, prefix lists
16:07	eyeris	Huh?
16:08	Chouser	try adding a :verbose after eash :use or :require, and see if that tells you anything useful.
16:08	Chouser	(:use :verbse (compojure...))
16:09	hiredman	huh
16:09	eyeris	http://pastebin.ca/1316317
16:09	hiredman	(ns foo.bar (:require (baz [bloop :as b])))
16:09	hiredman	^- works fine here
16:09	hiredman	no exceptions
16:11	eyeris	Does that paste suggest the problem is in /org/danlarkin/json/decoder?
16:12	danlarkin	eyeris: can you successfully require each of those packages individually?
16:13	eyeris	I'm trying that now.
16:14	eyeris	No
16:15	danlarkin	eyeris: and which namespace can't you require?
16:16	eyeris	Here are the results of that: http://pastebin.ca/1316323
16:16	eyeris	Oh, I think the require may work.
16:16	eyeris	It's hard for me to tell what is throwing the exception because the stacktrace says wiscaid.clj:0
16:16	eyeris	However there is no code on line 0
16:17	eyeris	Or, rather, there is an empty (ns)
16:17	eyeris	unless maybe those comment lines aren't actually comments inside of a macro?
16:18	danlarkin	can you to just (require :verbose '(org.danlarkin [json :as json])) from the REPL?
16:18	eyeris	Nope. Removing those comments and moving the (ns wiscaid) line down a few lines still results in the wiscaid.clj:0 backtrace
16:18	eyeris	Yes
16:18	eyeris	I can
16:20	eyeris	Just so we are clear, this is the file I am working with: http://pastebin.ca/1316334
16:21	eyeris	If I take out everything after the last (require), I get 0 errors
16:21	hiredman	uh
16:21	hiredman	the last two imports
16:21	hiredman	the vectors
16:21	hiredman	lose them
16:21	eyeris	uhg
16:22	eyeris	I should have caught that
16:22	eyeris	That silly backtrace for wiscaid.clj:0 confused me :/
16:23	eyeris	Thanks for your patient help with it.
16:24	hiredman	~#clojure
16:24	clojurebot	this is not IRC, this is #clojure. We aspire to better than that.
16:29	hiredman	Chouser: as someone who has made fancy smancy clojure graphics in the past, perhaps some sort of "how to contribute" flow chart is in order CA -> clojure.contrib -> rich -> clojure.core
16:31	hiredman	clojurebot: do you know anything about Chouser?
16:31	clojurebot	Chouser might make night
16:36	jbondeson	so to get a true rational -> float/double you have to round-trip through BigDecimal
16:40	Chouser	clojurebot: what does that even mean?
16:40	hiredman	it's a quote
16:40	hiredman	someone said it
16:40	Chouser	heh. ok.
16:41	jbondeson	alright clojurebot lets see if you can handle this...
16:41	jbondeson	,(let [float2 #((. (java.math.BigDecimal. (.numerator %1)) divide (java.math.BigDecimal.(.denominator %1) ) 100 java.math.RoundingMode/HALF_EVEN))] (let [sqrt2 #(loop [x %2 i 0] (if (> i %3) x (recur (/ (+ x (/ %1 x)) 2) (inc i))))] (float (sqrt2 (/ 41 20) 2 7))))
16:41	jbondeson	>_>
16:42	jbondeson	clojurebot: did i kill you?
16:42	hiredman	woa
16:42	jbondeson	only takes 4ms on mine =/
16:43	hiredman	java it taking 33.50% of cpu time
16:43	hiredman	should have timed out by now
16:44	jbondeson	that should be fairly short
16:44	jbondeson	only does 9 iterations of floating point math
16:44	jbondeson	err
16:44	jbondeson	rational
16:44	jbondeson	GAH!
16:44	hiredman	nah
16:44	jbondeson	boticide
16:44	hiredman	that was me
16:44	jbondeson	whew
16:44	hiredman	I killed it
16:45	jbondeson	well, i guess we know how to kill clojurebot: math
16:46	hiredman	most disappointing
16:46	jbondeson	that was supposed to be an example of how to take a massive rational and make a float out of it (fairly) quickly
16:46	hiredman	,(let [float2 #((. (java.math.BigDecimal. (.numerator %1)) divide (java.math.BigDecimal.(.denominator %1) ) 100
16:46	clojurebot	Eval-in-box threw an exception:EOF while reading
16:46	hiredman	java.math.RoundingMode/HALF_EVEN))] (let [sqrt2 #(loop [x %2 i 0] (if (> i %3)
16:46	hiredman	x (recur (/ (+ x (/ %1 x)) 2) (inc i))))] (float (sqrt2 (/ 41 20) 2 7))))
16:46	hiredman	whoops
16:47	hiredman	,(let [float2 #((. (java.math.BigDecimal. (.numerator %1)) divide (java.math.BigDecimal.(.denominator %1) ) 100 java.math.RoundingMode/HALF_EVEN))] (let [sqrt2 #(loop [x %2 i 0] (if (> i %3) x (recur (/ (+ x (/ %1 x)) 2) (inc i))))] (float (sqrt2 (/ 41 20) 2 7))))
16:47	clojurebot	1.4317821
16:47	hiredman	weird
16:47	eyeris	I want to import a Java class jxl.write.Number but it clashes with java.lang.Number. How can I resolve this?
16:47	kefka	clojurebot, when killed, should bounce back with "Yaaaaouch! Seafood soup is NOT on the menu!"
16:47	cooldude127	haha
16:47	jbondeson	seconded
16:47	cooldude127	hiredman: make it happen :)
16:47	hiredman	eyeris: I think there is something in contrib for aliasing imports
16:48	jbondeson	hmmm, and my example was even wrong!
16:48	kefka	let me try something
16:48	jbondeson	gah
16:48	kefka	clojurebot: die
16:49	kefka	clojurebot: die is "Yaaaouch! Seafood soup is NOT on the Menu!"
16:49	kefka	clojurebot: die
16:49	kefka	No... I don't know how to use it.
16:49	cooldude127	clojurebot is not happy
16:49	kefka	,(happy?)
16:51	jbondeson	i didn't do it this time!
16:54	WizardofWestmarc	jbondeson: but you're in the room, and we've proven repeatedly your various presence breaks stuff ;-)
16:54	WizardofWestmarc	*very
16:54	WizardofWestmarc	nfc why I put in various
16:55	jbondeson	i am an agent of destruction to computing equipment
17:06	jbondeson	it's a good thing that the repls for SBCL and Clojure are different, because i have restarted slime a half dozen times with SBCL and wondered what the hell was going on.
17:18	technomancy	huh; sloccount doesn't know about clj files
17:39	eyeris	Is there a Clojure interface to anything like tempnam()?
17:41	walters	eyeris: File/createTempFile ?
17:43	eyeris	Thanks. I'm a lisp and java newb.
17:43	eyeris	a.k.a hopeless :)
17:43	walters	heh, yeah; learning the libraries is one of the hardest parts of a new language
17:43	Fib	What does (ints) in clojure.core do? I can't find it in docs...
17:46	Chouser	I think it coerces to an array of primitive ints.
17:46	Chouser	though I can't get it to return anything other than nil at the moment.
17:51	jbondeson`	while i was disconnected did anyone answer your question Fib?
17:52	WizardofWestmarc	if "returns nil" then yes <_<
17:53	Chouser	Looks like the docstring is meant to be "Casts to int[]"
17:53	Chouser	I wonder if definline is completely broken now, though.
17:53	jbondeson`	yeah
17:53	WizardofWestmarc	it's been broken for a while then
17:53	jbondeson`	it calls into java to cast to int[]
17:54	WizardofWestmarc	IIRC my clojure build is from early in the month
17:54	WizardofWestmarc	I'm not against current head by any stretch
17:54	Chouser	I can't do my own definline's, and the ones in clojure.core don't seem to work.
17:57	jbondeson`	ints looks to only be useful to re-cast an array handed from java, you can't use it on any of the persistent seqs
17:57	Chouser	right, I think it's mainly for use as a type-hint
17:57	Chouser	to create an array you want into-array or make-array
17:58	Chouser	,(into-array Integer/TYPE [1 2 3])
17:58	Chouser	clojurebot: ping?
17:58	Chousuke	seems dead :(
17:58	jbondeson`	i killed him a while ago and he hasn't been the same since =)
17:59	jbondeson`	err =(
17:59	jbondeson`	i wasn't happy, really!
18:00	jbondeson`	my api fu is really crappy, i somehow missed (bigdec)
18:01	Chouser	hm, looks like definline may have broken with AOT compilation.
18:02	WizardofWestmarc	... really?
18:02	jbondeson`	that was quite a bit ago
18:02	WizardofWestmarc	that's from like, december or so
18:02	WizardofWestmarc	he announced it nov 13 on the GG
18:03	Chouser	I'll try out git bisect, see what it tells me.
18:12	eyeris	Does anyone here know how to set the mime type using compojure?
18:13	Chouser	definline broke at rev 1065, Oct 12
18:13	WizardofWestmarc	really?
18:13	WizardofWestmarc	wow that's a while ago
18:39	karmazilla	hiredman: I knew it. There really was a good reason for (set? (.keySet {})) => false
18:40	erohtar	do objects created using proxy behave like closures wrt defined vars ?
18:41	karmazilla	erohtar: yes
18:41	erohtar	karmazilla: so from the object created via proxy, i should be able to get the same values of the vars?
18:41	erohtar	karmazilla: or do i have to bind them locally inside the object?
18:43	karmazilla	,(.run (let [x 10] (proxy [Runnable] [] (run [] (println x)))))
18:43	Chouser	erohtar: from the bodies of proxy methods you may directly refer to locals in the enclosing block.
18:43	Chouser	like karmazilla just did. :-)
18:44	Chouser	but I wouldn't call them 'vars' because a Var is something else.
18:44	erohtar	chouser: ok, so i do have to create a local binding
18:44	karmazilla	except... I'm still not quite friends with clojurebot
18:44	erohtar	chouser: i actually mean Vars
18:44	erohtar	chouser: i want the proxy object to reference Vars
18:45	karmazilla	uhm... vars are global, no?
18:45	erohtar	karmazilla: i thought so too
18:46	Chouser	usually, yes, especially ones called "defined vars" I would think
18:46	erohtar	but im seeing a different result
18:46	erohtar	when a method is called on the proxy object, the values of the Vars are not visible
18:47	Chouser	If I say (def foo-var 5), the only way to see a different value is if someone does 'binding' or 'def' again.
18:49	erohtar	yes, ok - so here's the scenario
18:49	erohtar	i have a var called GLOBVAR lets say
18:49	erohtar	it starts out as "la la la"
18:49	erohtar	i use binding, and set it to "X"
18:50	erohtar	within that, i call proxy, and an object P is created
18:50	Chouser	that binding is local to the thread where its called.
18:50	erohtar	when a method is called on P, what value should GLOBVAR be?
18:50	erohtar	its all happening on the same thread so far
18:51	erohtar	my impression was since its within the binding form's call-stack, it should be "X"
18:51	Chouser	if the call to the method is within the dynamic scope of the binding, it should be "X", otherwise it should be "la la la"
18:51	erohtar	hmm
18:51	erohtar	it doesnt appear that way - maybe im doing something wrong
18:52	IslandAce	asl?
18:52	IslandAce	just kiddin''....
18:52	karmazilla	binding re-establishes the old values when you exit its scope, but you can always capture the _values_ with a let
18:53	erohtar	right i think whats happening is that my proxy object is actually a subscriber to a message queue
18:53	erohtar	and its possible that the proxy doing things in a new thread (or something)
18:54	IslandAce	So... anyone dabbling with any stripes and clojure integration?
18:54	erohtar	which is why im losing the bindings
18:54	erohtar	would that cause me to lose the bindings?
18:58	Chouser	yes, if the body of the method is executed in another thread, it'll see the root binding
19:12	_hrrld	I've seen some java code that does import foo.bar.* is there a clojure equivalent of this wildcard behavior?
19:12	Chouser	_hrrld: no
19:12	cooldude127	_hrrld: no, i don't think there is
19:13	hiredman	~*
19:13	clojurebot	* is just for when you are lazy and sloppy
19:13	_hrrld	I don't know much about Java, but this seems desirable... does it end up not being a bid deal?
19:14	cooldude127	_hrrld: not really a big deal at all
19:14	Chouser	_hrrld: I've not done much Java, but I find it hard to read Java examples when they use import *
19:14	Chouser	I can't tell where to find the docs for the classes they're using.
19:14	clows	Chouser: you get used to it after a while :)
19:15	_hrrld	I guess there are errors when you're missing imports anyway...
19:15	cooldude127	_hrrld: you usually know what classes you're using
19:16	_hrrld	Yar, agreed. At the moment I'm just translating some existing Java examples.
19:21	hiredman	technomancy: "I happen to have a fresh install..."
19:21	hiredman	brilliant
19:21	hiredman	what makes him think it isn't a one man show?
19:21	technomancy	jira is so bloody complicated.
19:22	technomancy	it's like the KDE 3.x fellas got a hold of it. ("Oh, a blank space? I'm sure we can find something to fill it with. Perhaps a button? or a drop-down?")
19:22	jli	Chouser, what window manager do you use?
19:22	Chouser	ion3
19:23	jli	ah, okay.
19:26	IslandAce	forced to use jira at work... you get used to it, but my gd why hasn't anyone written the-definitive* issue/bug management system? i feel tempted (stop me and tell me i'm stupid and everybody has different reqs, and, whatever...)
19:26	cooldude127	IslandAce: have you seen pivotal tracker?
19:26	technomancy	IslandAce: clearly the problem is that nobody's tried to do it in clojure.
19:26	IslandAce	hey, you guys noticed it's friday? time for an after-work pirate style grogg
19:26	IslandAce	technomancy: ;-)
19:27	IslandAce	cooldud127: no
19:27	technomancy	my favourite bug tracker is called "grep -r TODO"
19:27	cooldude127	IslandAce: they approached it with simplicity, i'm quite a fan
19:28	IslandAce	i'll pitch that at the place that pay me from time to time...
19:28	technomancy	IslandAce: ditz is another fun one; you keep your issues with your source tree so when you merge branches, the fix conditions of the issues get merged too
19:28	IslandAce	phb: grep? is that java or dot net?
19:28	technomancy	haven't tried ditz much myself, but the premise seems sound
19:29	technomancy	heh
19:31	IslandAce	hmm.. pivotal tracker seems interesting. too bad they just (taken 4 months) switch us all over to jira + confluence. feel my pitch will be shorter than an elevator ride.
19:32	IslandAce	(... my pitch time will be...)
19:33	technomancy	I've actually had really good luck with Trac
19:35	IslandAce	tech: they moved us away from trac. which we loved (or at least didn't hate). sigh.
19:36	technomancy	the confluence/jira emacs mode eases the pain some for me
19:36	IslandAce	pivotal seems cool, but also contains a deal-breaker - it seems to be "hosted only" and no way to do a local setup. won't fly with the phb's - our stuff is so crucial everyone and their mother-in-law would hack into any server just to take a look at our oh-so-important code...
19:37	technomancy	yeah, it certainly doesn't help
19:38	IslandAce	tech: thanks for the tip - hadn't heard about that (stupid though - doesn't everything have an emacs mode? should've thought about that...
19:39	IslandAce	hey, btw, anyone know about a grogg mixer emacs mode?
19:39	technomancy	IslandAce: you might be able to modify the coffee-pot mode
19:40	technomancy	IslandAce: http://emarsden.chez.com/downloads/coffee.el
19:40	IslandAce	hmm... could be good for an irish coffee...
19:42	technomancy	http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2324.html
19:42	IslandAce	technomancy: gives me cool ideas to build in the hardware segment... didn't i read something about robotic bartenders or something the other day...? hmm...
19:43	technomancy	"A coffee pot server MUST accept both the BREW and POST method equivalently. However, the use of POST for causing actions to happen is deprecated."
19:43	IslandAce	http://www.hackszine.com/blog/archive/2009/01/bar2d2_mobile_droid_bartender.html
19:44	IslandAce	technomancy: well, then, how do you GET the coffee when it's brewed?
19:44	IslandAce	technomancy: sorry, i'm all out of wit. damn this week was a long one.
19:44	technomancy	IslandAce: well the technology lags a bit behind the theory, as usual.
19:45	IslandAce	technomancy: a bit like ramdrives, space elevators and jon stewart then....
19:45	technomancy	This really does not get old: "Any attempt to brew coffee with a teapot should result in the error code "418 I'm a teapot". The resulting entity body MAY be short and stout."
19:49	erohtar	how do i get access to command line arguments in a clojure script?
19:49	IslandAce	technomancy: yeah, too little hacker humour these days. everybody's to wound up fighting corporate policies on youtube usage that we don't have time to come up with these fantastic rfc's...
19:49	Chouser	command-line-args
19:49	jbondeson	you need a main function and then you just add the args there
19:49	jbondeson	(defn -main [args] ...)
19:50	jbondeson	or that
19:50	jbondeson	crossarms
19:50	erohtar	chouser: thanks a lot!
19:50	technomancy	IslandAce: Oh, I don't know about that. (http://github.com/technomancy/bludgeon/tree/master)
19:50	IslandAce	technomancy: kudos!
19:54	IslandAce	technomancy: I'm questioning the BLUDGEON_PAGES .. eh.. what's it called in Ruby? thing. 500 pages isn't enough, I feel, to really maim someone. Go with 750 (and a good quality paper) and I think you've crossed the line into aggravated assault.
19:55	technomancy	IslandAce: some more research is definitely needed to calibrate that number. I based it on the weight of a Chicago phone book, which the Chicago police department has identified as a murder weapon in a certain case.
19:55	karmazilla	printed on both or just one side of the paper?
19:55	jbondeson	this is about the oddest conversation i've heard in a while.
19:55	technomancy	IslandAce: if you have any hard research findings to provide a better number, please send a patch.
19:55	technomancy	(I won't tell the cops.)
19:56	IslandAce	technomancy: give me a couple of hours...
19:56	technomancy	karmazilla: one-sided since that's pretty normal for source printouts
19:56	IslandAce	karmazilla: i don't think that'll matter that much though - depends a little bit if you've got a laser or an ink printer of course, but hardly significant
19:57	IslandAce	jbondeson: well, always glad to be of assistance. i did ask (didn't I? I usually do) for some more vodka in exchange for my silence.
19:57	technomancy	IslandAce: it matters for calculating the line-numbers => pages ratio though
19:57	danlarkin	is ouroboros too annoying a name to type/pronounce for my software?
19:57	jbondeson	you stay the hell away from my booze! >=\|
19:58	karmazilla	For reasons unknown, I came to print the Oracle SQL reference once. On both sides of the paper, and there was still plenty of it to give your partner in crime half of it
19:58	technomancy	danlarkin: I like it.
19:58	IslandAce	danlarkin: depends if you want someone to recommend it to someone else via verbal communication...
19:58	technomancy	can't be worse than conkeror. =)
19:59	jbondeson	...
19:59	technomancy	"I didn't know you used KDE." / "No, no... the gecko-based one. With a C."
19:59	danlarkin	ok, ouroboros or barchetta?
19:59	IslandAce	technomancy: i thought it sounded familiar...
19:59	IslandAce	danlarkin: i vote barchetta. that sounds violent.
20:00	danlarkin	although I'm worried barchetta may be a registered trademark of Fiat, in which case I can't use it :-/
20:00	karmazilla	on wierd project names: http://rubyhoedown2008.confreaks.com/12-giles-bowkett-archaeopteryx-a-ruby-midi-generator.html
20:00	karmazilla	well, rather, _a_ weird project name
20:01	IslandAce	"Fiat Barchetta" is a registered trademark. Don't know about just "barchetta"
20:01	technomancy	means "Little Boat"... what's this project do?
20:02	IslandAce	technomancy: floats your boat
20:02	technomancy	nice
20:02	danlarkin	it's my rewrite/port of django to clojure
20:02	jbondeson	you can tell that programmers suck at marketing just by looking at how they name projects
20:02	IslandAce	danlarkin: that requires a seriously cool name... let's meditate a bit over that.. (and pour another grogg)
20:02	technomancy	ambitious.
20:03	danlarkin	I want someone else to choose the name
20:03	danlarkin	I can't even name functions, jeez
20:03	technomancy	jormandjung is another name for ouroboros iirc
20:03	IslandAce	danlarkin: what abut simply "clango"?
20:04	jbondeson	cjango?
20:04	jbondeson	cljango
20:04	danlarkin	no way
20:04	technomancy	clango sounds loud and common-lisp-ish
20:04	danlarkin	yeah, no clj- or -jure names
20:04	IslandAce	hey.. they're pretty cool jeans...
20:04	karmazilla	Bentou
20:04	jbondeson	its been a jvm staple to just tack on j to ... everything
20:05	danlarkin	karmazilla: as in lunch? :) yummmm
20:05	karmazilla	Django sounds like dango, which is japanese stick food and bentou is like a lunch box
20:05	jbondeson	project names that make me hungry are the worst
20:06	danlarkin	karmazilla: actually django sounds like "jang go"
20:06	technomancy	mythology is a great source for names
20:06	karmazilla	but, is that a food?
20:07	IslandAce	carrillo
20:07	danlarkin	cheek?
20:07	danlarkin	"cheek" sounds like a bad name for software to me
20:07	danlarkin	haha
20:08	technomancy	oh, I've got it: "grimmshado" <= http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/1/19/
20:08	jbondeson	hmmm wish you could set a global math context instead of wrapping everything in a "with-precision"
20:08	danlarkin	hmmmm how does "syrinx" sound
20:08	jbondeson	sounds painful
20:08	IslandAce	danlarkin: sci-fiish
20:09	IslandAce	danlarkin: carrillo (besides meaning cheek in spanish) is a lunar crater
20:09	jbondeson	"just-use-the-damn-project"
20:09	danlarkin	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrinx_(disambiguation)
20:10	IslandAce	danlarkin: kongla
20:10	IslandAce	danlarkin: valau
20:10	technomancy	valhalla
20:10	IslandAce	danlarkin: mavala
20:10	danlarkin	ha, my friends were in a band called valhalla in highschool
20:10	IslandAce	danlarkin: eturia
20:10	technomancy	chinchilla
20:11	technomancy	ok, done being "helpful" =)
20:11	danlarkin	IslandAce: are you just doing consonant-vowel-consonant-vowel?
20:11	danlarkin	:)
20:12	IslandAce	we had a band called "uranium". tag line "radioactive rockers" (in swedish). we sounded absolutely aweful. but quite loud.
20:12	IslandAce	danlarkin: well...
20:13	IslandAce	danlarkin: actually, i'm a bit more interested in the code than the name... django on clojure sounds promising. what parts are you porting?
20:15	danlarkin	IslandAce: well, hopefully all of it eventually, at least what makes sense. So far I have the url dispatching, middleware, settings system, now I'm scratching my head on what to do with templating
20:16	technomancy	danlarkin: the obvious way is pretty compelling from what I've used of it so far
20:16	technomancy	(what compojure implements)
20:16	IslandAce	danlarkin: nothing on the models/orm layer?
20:17	danlarkin	IslandAce: well I thought I should tackle the things I know most about first
20:17	technomancy	though compojure could use a lot more work on form helpers, particularly for nested data structures
20:17	IslandAce	danlarkin: a solid idea indeed.
20:18	technomancy	no need to reinvent the wheel though; compojure's html is a separate library that you could build on with another framework.
20:18	danlarkin	I've spent time investigating the django ORM and.... it's preeeeeeetty complicated. Not to mention inherently object-oriented :)
20:19	IslandAce	hopefully we'll see a rapid evolvement of clojure web frameworks soon - when all talented people start pooling their talent into one framework so us less-talented people can get to work... :-)
20:19	IslandAce	i feel the whole bludgeon debate sort of died out..?
20:19	danlarkin	technomancy: django has this interesting idea of "template loaders" -- which are just classes that know how to load templates from different places, usually it's the file system, but really it could be anywhere, HAM radio, email, S3 whatever...
20:20	technomancy	danlarkin: people actually use this?
20:20	IslandAce	i'd love to be able to load a template over ham radio. haven't used my 10 meter antenna in at least a decade...
20:20	danlarkin	technomancy: so I was thinking of extending that to allow any templating system, the template loader function would have to deal with both ends peculiarities
20:20	danlarkin	meaning one could possibly use compojure's html stuff, clj-html, whatever
20:20	danlarkin	raw strings
20:21	technomancy	(load-template "irc://freenode.net/#clojure/technomancy")
20:21	danlarkin	but I haven't fleshed it out yet
20:23	danlarkin	ideally one could write a project with templates coming from many template-loaders, butttt I'm still trying to think of some way that makes sense for them all to play well together
20:23	danlarkin	maybe I should turn my music down and think about it :)
21:30	rzezeski	Has anyone else noticed that 'merge' works on data structures other than maps, but that the doc string for merge discusses it's behavior strictly in terms of maps. I wonder if this doc should change to be more general, or if the merge function should check that the arguments are indeed maps?