#clojure – 2009-01-11

2009-01-11

00:38	hiredman	1d8
00:39	mfredrickson	hiredman: 6
00:39	mfredrickson	you slay the elf
00:39	hiredman	1d8
00:39	clojurebot	6
00:40	mfredrickson	jinks!
00:51	arohner	1d8
00:51	clojurebot	3
00:54	hiredman	man, clojurebot totally needs to do markov chains generated from channel logs
01:34	vogelrn	1d8
01:34	clojurebot	8
01:34	vogelrn	1d10
01:34	clojurebot	6
01:34	vogelrn	1d1000000000000000000000000000
01:34	vogelrn	hmmmm
01:34	vogelrn	unfortunate :P
01:38	hiredman	hmm
01:39	vogelrn	I was expecting intmax
01:39	vogelrn	not silence
02:44	hiredman	is there a prefered mimtype for clj files?
02:50	hiredman	application/x-clojure it is
04:38	rryan	Hi -- does clojure have call/cc?
04:39	hiredman	nope
04:40	rryan	alright.. google didn't turn up anything useful so I assumed not. Any workaround? Any reason why?
04:44	kotarak	rryan: }:-) Why should it have call/cc?
04:45	rryan	:)
04:45	kotarak	rryan: I suspect that this is not easy to implement, things Clojure allows easy calls to Java.
04:45	kotarak	s/things/since/
04:45	rryan	yea -- the more I think about it, it sounds hard
04:46	rryan	For fun, I was going to rewrite CONSPIRE (a scheme time sharing system) in clojure.
04:46	kotarak	You'll need either you own call stack or other means to implement it, which makes interop hard, or you have to do bad things like copying stack in C and such.... (Which I don't even know whether it's possible in Java or not)
04:46	rryan	and it relies pretty heavily on call/cc
04:49	kotarak	that's not the right thing I guess. ;) :conspire: a conspiracy theory generator, for the conspiracy theorist in a hurry
04:49	hiredman	rhickey has said on the google group that "Clojure is not going to provide continuations
04:49	hiredman	any time soon"
04:50	rryan	gotcha
04:50	hiredman	but I don't see him giving a reason
04:50	hiredman	but I would suspect that kotarak is right
06:17	asbjxrn	Is there a way of getting "unchecked-add" behaviour for floats?
06:19	Lau_of_DK	Good afternoon everyone =)
06:19	kotarak	Hi Lau.
06:43	asbjxrn	Tip: (+ (float 0.1) (float 0.1) (float 0.1)) is about 9 times slower than (+ (float 0.1) (+ (float 0.1) (float 0.1)))
06:57	Chousuke	the last float probably gets reboxed or something as IIRC + uses reduce for more than 2 arguments.
08:34	rfgpfeiffer	'#=(symbol "test symbol")
08:35	rfgpfeiffer	i think i found a bug
08:35	kotarak	symbol does not validate the string, in case that's what you want to say.
08:36	rfgpfeiffer	#=(keyword "key word")
08:36	rfgpfeiffer	this works as expexted
08:40	rfgpfeiffer	symbol just creates a symbol with the name "test symbol", the problem is somewhere else
08:43	rfgpfeiffer	(symbol "test symbol") works fine also
08:44	kotarak	It's somehow the combination of ' and #=.
08:44	Chouser	#= isn't meant to be used directly
08:45	rfgpfeiffer	it seems like symbols are parsed again after read time
08:48	Chousuke	calling symbol with arguments that would result in unreadable symbols is unsupported anyway, as far as I know
08:50	kotarak	I think it's on the issue list to implement validators.
08:50	Chousuke	yeah
08:53	Chousuke	I figured out the following: symbols must not contain whitespace, must not start with numbers , # or /; must not end with / (exception: just '/ is allowed), can't contain ', or the comma (since it's whitespace).
08:54	Chousuke	anything missing there? :/
08:54	kotarak	maybe ()? What does the reader do here: foo(+ 1 2)
08:54	Chousuke	symbols containing / among other valid characters are allowed but cause problems.
08:54	Chousuke	ah, true
08:55	Chousuke	also must not start with : since that's for keywords
08:56	Chousuke	keywords have similar rules but are a bit less restricted because they always start with :, so the "must not start with" rules can be ignored
08:57	rfgpfeiffer	what about ^, @,%, and ~?
09:01	rhickey	http:/clojure.org/reader says "Symbols begin with a non-numeric character and can contain alphanumeric characters and *, +, !, -, _, and ? "
09:01	rhickey	http://clojure.org/reader
09:04	rhickey	the problem with '#=(symbol "test symbol") is that it tries to embed the symbol with the name "test symbol" as a constant in the compiled code. Constants are stored readably, and symbols using just their print representation, so in restoring the constant one object is read in from the string "test symbol" is read, yielding the symbol test
09:05	rfgpfeiffer	okay
09:05	Chousuke	rhickey: can you clarify if / should be allowed in symbol names other than '/? Allowing it seems to cause problems. :/
09:08	rfgpfeiffer	perhaps (.toString (symbol "this symbol")) should return \|this symbol\|
09:08	Chousuke	(namespace 'a/a/b) returns a/a but a namespace like that won't work; even if you create it and def the b var, trying to evaluate a/a/b says that the namespace a/a does not exist
09:22	Lau_of_DK	(doc interleave)
09:22	clojurebot	Returns a lazy seq of the first item in each coll, then the second etc.; arglists ([& colls])
10:21	asbjxrn	So I've spent a good chunk of the weekend translating http://www.dgp.toronto.edu/people/stam/reality/Research/pdf/GDC03.pdf to Clojure. (Fluid dynamics for games.)
10:21	asbjxrn	And I only get 1 frame/sec for a 100x100 grid...
10:22	Chousuke	:/
10:23	asbjxrn	Hardly convincing smoke effects at that pace.. (Very small movements from frame to frame as well.)
10:24	Chousuke	have you gotten rid of all reflection in your app already?
10:24	asbjxrn	Anyone feel like giving it a shot?
10:25	Chousuke	but that kind of stuff looks like it might be easier to use java to write the parts that need speed and then tie it all together with clojure.
10:25	asbjxrn	Not all. I'm not sure hot to get rid of the last parts. Tried using YourKit to figure out where the time went, but...
10:27	asbjxrn	I agree. Not what I would expect Clojure to excel at, but I would have hoped it would be reasonably fast.
10:27	asbjxrn	I'm also not using idiomatic clojure, I guess. I'm using java arrays for the data.
10:29	Chousuke	do you have the code on github or something?
10:29	karmazilla	idea: what if PersistentStructMap$Def implemented IFn and calling it would yield an instance of that struct with the parsed arguments as values?
10:31	Chousuke	karmazilla: you mean (defstruct foo ...) and then (foo ...) -> structmap?
10:31	asbjxrn	It's real ugly, do they have anonymous accounts? :)
10:32	Chousuke	asbjxrn: gist.github.com
10:32	karmazilla	Chousuke: yes
10:32	Chousuke	asbjxrn: the best pastebin I know :D
10:32	Chousuke	asbjxrn: because even the pastes are git repos
10:33	Chousuke	you can fork them and import their history into a real git project if the gist ends up growing into a real app
10:36	asbjxrn	It's a bit too late here now. I'm off to bed. I'll check it out tomorrow.
10:40	bOR_	how would you solve this? I've a regex matcher, and when I call (.find mymatcher) it will return true until it can no longer find any matches in the string, and then it starts returning false.
10:40	bOR_	I want the number of trues.
10:40	bOR_	take-while pred coll seemed nice, but warns me not to use a pred that has side-effects.
10:40	bOR_	and I toyed a bit with trying to turn (.find mymatcher) into a lazy-cons
10:41	Chousuke	isn't there a re function that returns a seq of matches
10:41	Chousuke	call count on that.
10:41	bOR_	its not the standard java regex engine.
10:41	bOR_	brics automaton.
10:42	bOR_	(unless I misunderstood your answer)
10:44	Chousuke	ah. hmm
10:44	bOR_	ah.
10:44	bOR_	got the lazy-cons to work
10:44	bOR_	that seems to be it
10:44	bOR_	(defn lazy-find
10:45	bOR_	[matcher]
10:45	bOR_	(lazy-cons (.find match) (lazy-find matcher)))
10:45	bOR_	.
10:45	bOR_	a take 10 on that works nicely
10:45	bOR_	so now I might be able to tag on a (count (take-while true (lazy-find match)))
10:46	bOR_	victory :)
10:46	achim_p	bOR_: you might be able to use repeatedly (count (take-while identity (repeatedly #(.find ...)))) - didn't test that though
10:47	bOR_	(take-while #(= true %) (lazy-find match)) did work
10:47	bOR_	but violates the 'pred cant have side-effects rule though'
10:47	bOR_	not sure how much I should worry about that.
10:47	bOR_	I'll look at repeatedly.
10:48	achim_p	not sure about side-effects and take-while either, but repeatedly does allow them explicitly
10:48	bOR_	(take 10 (repeatedly (fn [] (.find match))))
10:48	bOR_	noticed.
10:48	bOR_	that works.
10:49	bOR_	thanks!
10:49	bOR_	getting tired. not sure if it works :)
10:49	bOR_	but thanks for pointing out repeatedly.
10:50	asbjxrn	http://gist.github.com/45724 <- Ugly, slow, broken code.
10:52	achim_p	bOR_: you're welcome. just looked up the code for repeatedly - looks like a generalized version of lazy-find :)
10:53	bOR_	gracias.
10:53	bOR_	man. I'll summarize the mess I went through on the forum one of these days :).
10:53	bOR_	but it seems all is working out eventually.
10:54	bOR_	(was working on a bottleneck in a simulation model in clojure)
10:58	achim_p	bOR_: thanks for pointing me to brics automaton, i've been looking for a regex engine with complement support!
10:59	bOR_	nice :).
11:00	bOR_	what does complement mean in regard to regex engines?
11:00	bOR_	saw that function, couldn't figure out what it did from the description?
11:01	bOR_	I am using the union function though, which can merge my regexs before I let it getfinitestrings
11:01	bOR_	(whenever I can't calculate getfinitestrings in an easier way)
11:02	achim_p	non-occurence of patterns - most regex engines can't express that
11:05	bOR_	ah. cool, so basically the opposite of the sequence space that can be presented.
11:05	bOR_	hmm. opposite.. better is to say the rest of the sequence space.
11:11	achim_p	i knew their mona tool a little and that it was good in minimizing state machines, but wasn't aware there was a java regex implementation with that built in. pretty cool
12:43	jacky	Hi - I have a question about the threadlocal semantics of vars
12:43	jacky	(def k 10)
12:44	jacky	now, k is bound to the value 10.
12:44	jacky	(.start (Thread. (fn [] (def k 5)(println k)))) -- this should bound k to the value of 5 only within the thread.
12:44	hiredman	no
12:44	hiredman	def is global
12:44	jacky	But when I check for the value of k in repl, it shows 5
12:44	kotarak	(doc binding)
12:44	clojurebot	binding => var-symbol init-expr Creates new bindings for the (already-existing) vars, with the supplied initial values, executes the exprs in an implicit do, then re-establishes the bindings that existed before.; arglists ([bindings & body])
12:45	jacky	I see.. The threadlocal semantics apply on if you use binding?
12:45	kotarak	And there is with-local-vars, but I never used that one up to now.
12:46	hiredman	(doc with-local-vars)
12:46	clojurebot	varbinding=> symbol init-expr Executes the exprs in a context in which the symbols are bound to vars with per-thread bindings to the init-exprs. The symbols refer to the var objects themselves, and must be accessed with var-get and var-set; arglists ([name-vals-vec & body])
12:48	jacky	so, to create a threadlocal binding, we should use binding
12:48	kotarak	binding worked very well for me up to now.
15:05	dreish	,(#(identical? (rest %) (rest %)) [1 2 3])
15:05	clojurebot	false
15:10	hiredman	,(#(identical? (rest %) (rest %)) (seq [1 2 3]))
15:10	hiredman	hmmm
15:11	hiredman	,(#(identical? (rest %) (rest %)) (seq [1 2 3]))
15:11	clojurebot	false
15:13	eyeris	Using Maven2 Jetty plugin, where do I put my clojureql.jar file? I've tried specifying -Djetty.class.path="/full/path/to/clojureql.jar" but I still get a classnotfound exception.
15:14	eyeris	(this is for use with Webjure, btw)
15:38	Chouser	,(#(identical? (rest %) (rest %)) (map identity [1 2 3]))
15:38	clojurebot	true
15:42	danlarkin	So in an object-oriented language I would be saying like, you have to pass me an object here that has at least one of these 4 methods. Would a reasonable analog in clojure be saying you have to pass me a namespace that has one of these 4 functions named in a specific way?
15:43	danlarkin	or should I use gen-interface and make them use proxy
15:44	hiredman	pass me a hash that has at least one of these four keys
15:46	hoeck	danlarkin: or pass a function that does one of these 4 things
15:46	hiredman	hoeck: but how would you know which of the four the function does?
15:46	danlarkin	hoeck: well the 4 different functions get executed at different times... like pre_ and post_ hooks etc
15:47	Chouser	hash-map of functions?
15:47	hiredman	^-
15:47	danlarkin	yeah, the hash of functions might be a good way
15:48	hiredman	and you can do all that fun hash destructuring
15:48	Chouser	that's essentially what irefs do now. (agent foo :validator fn)
15:49	Chouser	I think passing a namespace would be pretty rough on both producer and consumer
15:49	Chouser	clojure.zip uses a data object with several functions attached as metadata
15:53	danlarkin	yeah I think a good way to do this will be have them pass in a hashmap of functions, thanks hiredman and Chouser
15:56	lsantha	hello
15:57	lsantha	I'm testing clojure on an experimenta java platform
15:58	lsantha	and I noticed that the bytecode generated by clojure contains dead code which makes it fail in this env
15:59	lsantha	is it possible to fix this problem? Where shold I post a bugreport?
16:03	Chouser	lsantha: post it to the google group
16:04	lsantha	ok, thanks
16:04	cpfr	hey how easy is it to use Clojure for mobile phone apps?
16:04	cpfr	since i kinda hate coding in java
16:05	hiredman	s know
16:05	hiredman	er
16:06	hiredman	be the first to do it, and let us know
16:07	Chouser	cpfr: it's now working for applets and android, so you have a fighting chance at getting j2me working.
16:07	cpfr	Chouser, awesome!
16:08	cpfr	hiredman, i barely know how to do it with java, but will do
16:40	lsantha	Chouser: I postgred it but not showing up, is waiting in a moderation queue?
16:41	lsantha	* I posted it ...
16:41	Chouser	lsantha: yeah, if it's your first post, it'll be held (to prevent spam)
16:41	lsantha	ok
16:41	Chouser	which may work to your advantage, because it means rhickey will have to see it.
16:41	Chouser	:-)
16:42	lsantha	:-)
16:43	lsantha	I also tried a sort of a fix which fixed one part of the problem
16:43	lsantha	maybe it's not so hard to fix it for the authors
16:44	lsantha	and for mobile platforms such things maybe be important even if for Java SE they go unnoticed
16:44	rhickey	lsantha: what's JNode?
16:44	lsantha	it's an experimental OS written in Java
16:44	lsantha	http://www.jnode.org/
16:46	rhickey	I think it should be tolerant of dead bytecode
16:46	lsantha	I think you are right
16:47	rhickey	Clojure definitely relies on the VMs to do last-mile optimization
16:48	lsantha	that's one place for fixing the bug, but also posted it to you just in case you are interested
16:50	rhickey	lsantha: thanks. If you want, you can create an issue for it so it won't get lost, bit not a top priority right now
17:06	Lau_of_DK	How do I debug a "No matching clause" ?
17:07	karmazilla	Chouser: textjure future?
17:07	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: that's from a condp?
17:07	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: No, its from my run macro, or somewhere after it
17:09	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: I think condp is the only form that throws that exception.
17:09	Lau_of_DK	Then you've answered my question, thanks CHous' :)
17:10	Chouser	karmazilla: hopefully textjure has more future than it does past.
17:11	rhickey	poll: Clojure supports CL-style nil-punning, how much would you miss it if it didn't?
17:11	Chouser	like (cons :foo nil) ?
17:11	Chouser	and we'd have to say (cons :foo ()) instead?
17:11	rhickey	Chouser: no, like (if (rest x)...), using seqs fns as predicates etc
17:12	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: Counter-question: What would I gain if I lost nil-punning?
17:12	karmazilla	Chouser: hehe, that's a way to put it :) I fiddled with it a bit and sort of got it to save the one file you opened with it
17:12	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: one poll at a time :)
17:12	Lau_of_DK	hehe, alright
17:12	danlarkin	rhickey: so (rest [1]) would be what
17:12	Chouser	so we'd have to say (if (series? (rest x)) ...) instead?
17:12	rhickey	danlarkin: opaque, seq would work on it
17:12	Lau_of_DK	Then I cant answer due to lack of polls, I think I'd miss it
17:13	rhickey	Chouser: (if (seq (rest x)) ...)
17:14	hiredman	:(
17:14	rhickey	danlarkin: (seq (rest [1])) -> nil
17:14	Chouser	I suppose (rest x) would then evaluate to something true in cases where it currently is nil?
17:14	rhickey	Chouser: yep
17:15	Lau_of_DK	Now I know I'd miss it
17:15	hiredman	:(
17:15	danlarkin	yeah I'm -1
17:15	Chouser	I think that'd break a lot of my code.
17:15	rhickey	hiredman: no voting twice :)
17:16	hiredman	running a markov chain deal on the irc logs a channel where people paste code does not get you english output
17:16	Chousuke	rhickey: so what would this change enable?
17:16	rhickey	Chouser: one possibility, for rest, if for rest to be defined as (seq (tail x)) where tail is the new rest
17:16	Chouser	I suppose I could get used to it. "Public" api functions already have to use (seq x) generally to allow empty containers to work right...
17:16	rhickey	Chouser: exactly, mush code already does (seq coll)
17:17	rhickey	much
17:17	rhickey	There are basically two ways to support streams
17:18	rhickey	first is bifurcation, a second set of all seq fns for streams, both can be generated from a single definition
17:18	rhickey	since: (def map (comp seq map-stream))
17:19	rhickey	second method is change to seq semantics, rest would return a logical coll, not an ISeq/nil
17:19	rhickey	seq still returns ISeq/nil
17:19	rhickey	first is the same
17:20	rhickey	then seq/stream fns can return either seqs/streams or other things
17:20	rhickey	one set of fns
17:20	rhickey	the new seq model can support fully-lazy seqs, not possible now
17:20	Chouser	other functions might need 'seq' around them too, though, right? filter, map, etc. if you want to test for empty result.
17:20	rhickey	since Delay could implement Seqable, you could write seq fns returning delays
17:21	rhickey	Chouser: yep
17:22	Chouser	especially without having a sense of what benefit I'd get from interacting directly with streams instead of seqs, the first way sounds better.
17:22	Chouser	my existing code works, new code doesn't need more (seq ...) sprinkled everywhere, and I can use map-stream if I know I want it.
17:22	rhickey	stream versions of fns likely to be 2-4x faster
17:23	Lau_of_DK	hmmm :)
17:23	rhickey	if everyone chooses the stream verions all the time they'll have seq calls when needed anyway
17:23	Lau_of_DK	And there's no way to obtain that speed increase with this re-design ?
17:23	Chouser	clojure's already too fast for me.
17:23	rhickey	heh
17:24	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: speed is due to essential difference between seqs and streams
17:24	rhickey	this is just an api thing
17:24	Lau_of_DK	oh... I think thats a very heavy argument
17:24	rhickey	IO likely to be exposed only as streams
17:24	rhickey	ditto queues
17:25	Lau_of_DK	I want to change my vote
17:25	rhickey	bifurcation: +compatible -no-full-lazy-seqs -two-verions-of-every-fn
17:26	rhickey	unified model: -breaking +fully-lazy-seqs +more-elegant-api -no-punning
17:26	danlarkin	two versions of every fn should count as two minuses
17:27	danlarkin	but so should no punning, gah!
17:27	rhickey	danlarkin: there will be (defstream map ...) generating map and map*
17:27	Chouser	it's more than just compatible, it's also more succinct for any seq users, isn't it?
17:27	Chouser	though rather less succinct for stream users.
17:28	Chouser	"it" being bifurcation in both the above
17:28	karmazilla	could an ILogical interface make "empty seqs" become logical false, or is that going too far for too little?
17:28	Chouser	empty streams
17:28	rhickey	karmazilla: its not the interface, it's the eagerness of determining emptiness
17:29	Chouser	hmmm.
17:29	rhickey	nil punning is fundamentally in conflict with full laziness, and other indirections
17:29	karmazilla	ah, I see now
17:29	rhickey	I've come to conclude
17:29	rhickey	much to my chagrin
17:29	Chouser	was my post incorrect that dug into exactly how existing seqs are already fully lazy?
17:30	rhickey	Chouser: which one?
17:31	rhickey	the way I've implemented streams, you can chain them and then just seq the end, yielding great perf + easy consumption, caching etc
17:31	rhickey	there is a one-time threadsafe transition of a stream into a seq
17:32	rhickey	note I like nil punning quite a bit, as I did in CL, why I made it work in Clojure
17:34	rhickey	and have pushed back against the even/odd laziness arguments, arguing for lazy-except-for-first being a reasonable compromise
17:34	Chouser	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/cfa89c8265a33f2c
17:34	rhickey	but it is interesting that the same thing is needed for both full laziness and stream/seq transparency
17:37	rhickey	Chouser: right, so only first and rest can be lazy, but not the work needed to determine if there is a first, which often needs to get the first of some other seq
17:37	Chouser	basically, 'first' being lazy allows you to split the determination of "if there's more" from "what the next value"
17:43	rhickey	basically rest returning nil means at least some work (that required to determine if there is any more) cannot be lazy
17:44	danlarkin	that makes sense, makes me sad though :'(
17:45	rhickey	as Chouser's post indicated, it i not really a problem in practice very often. Certainly this change would not be justified by full-laziness only
17:47	rhickey	if rest returned something opaque, it could be a Delay
17:47	Chouser	I'm still not quite following. The only work 'rest' ever has to do is determine if there's more. To find out what that more is, the also-lazy 'first' can then be computed. How much more split up can the work be?
17:49	rhickey	Chouser: (defn foo [] ... (rest x))
17:49	rhickey	if the consumer never uses it, this does too much work
17:50	rhickey	it's more where the split lies, but there are three distinct things: the seq itself, the first value, the rest value
17:50	rhickey	right now the seq itself is always eager
17:50	rhickey	if you could delay the seq, then most likely you would delay seq+first together, and rest
17:50	rhickey	still two delays, but at different points
17:52	rhickey	most seq fns would look like (defn aseqfn [] (delay #( ... (lazy-rest-only-cons x (cal-rest)))))
17:56	rhickey	a simple example is drop, must do most of its work in all cases
17:57	rhickey	and the work of producing the dropped items of the seq it's manipulating
17:57	rhickey	not fully lazy
18:06	Chouser	you'd still force the 'first's in order to cache, even when just dropping, as LazyCons does now?
18:07	rhickey	Chouser: yes, seqs are still persistent
18:10	rhickey	the difference is drop would do no work until you called seq/first on what it returned
18:24	Chouser	ok, the drop example helps me, thanks.
18:24	Chouser	The cutover pain is going to be real, but I'm in favor of removing the wart that nil punning requires.
18:27	rhickey	Chouser: thanks for the considered feedback
18:30	rhickey	I still haven't made a decision, one thing I'll be doing is an audit of the changes required by Clojure itself - I use a good bit of nil punning
18:30	rhickey	also, there is a secondary issue regarding code that relies on the type of the return values of seq fns, like the compiler!
19:22	rhickey	hmm... that conversation seemed to scare everyone off :)
19:22	Chousuke	heh
19:24	Chousuke	rhickey: while you're still here: http://code.google.com/p/clojure/issues/detail?id=41
19:26	rhickey	ok
19:56	knapr	how can I interact with C++ code from Clojure?
19:57	hiredman	jni?
19:57	knapr	im writing my own Matrix-lib for a huge-ass sparse matrix and I want to write the highlevel code in lisp not C++.
19:57	knapr	ok
19:57	Chousuke	hm
19:57	knapr	and how is the overhead? is it worth it?
19:58	knapr	or it will then be like i wrote it in Java?
19:58	Chousuke	do you need to write your own lib?
19:58	knapr	maybe I should use python instead?
19:58	Chousuke	I mean, there are java matrix libraries.
19:58	knapr	maybe I cant use the JVM
19:58	knapr	actually
19:58	knapr	i need special-purpose superpacked
19:59	Chousuke	but no, the overhead of JNI shouldn't be much more than what overhead generally is for such things.
19:59	Chousuke	I don't know for sure, but I've never heard of anyone complaining about JNI overhead :/
20:04	knapr	= java native interface?
20:06	luxanctus	I hear crickets chirping.
20:06	luxanctus	Was it me?
20:06	luxanctus	Welcome back.
20:09	luxanctus	Bye.
21:37	durka	is there any way
21:37	durka	whoops
21:37	durka	is there any way to have clojure attempt to eval some code without actually doing anything
21:38	durka	in other words, i want the exceptions that would be thrown during load
21:38	danlarkin	(doc read)
21:38	clojurebot	Reads the next object from stream, which must be an instance of java.io.PushbackReader or some derivee. stream defaults to the current value of in .; arglists ([] [stream] [stream eof-error? eof-value] [stream eof-error? eof-value recursive?])
21:41	durka	but does that resolve symbols
21:41	danlarkin	yeah
21:41	danlarkin	there's a request for a non resolving reader, I'm pretty sure?
21:42	danlarkin	not sure what the priority is
21:43	Chouser	I don't think 'read' resolves symbols.
21:44	Chouser	,(namespace (read-string "filter"))
21:44	clojurebot	nil
21:46	durka	,(read-string "(WildlyInvalidCode.)")
21:46	clojurebot	(WildlyInvalidCode.)
21:47	durka	but i would want an exception there
21:47	Chouser	,(read-string "(invalid(syntax")
21:47	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: EOF while reading
21:49	durka	i'm reading valid syntax but looking for unresolvable symbols
21:51	Chouser	(clojure.lang.Compiler/analyze clojure.lang.Compiler$C/STATEMENT (read-string "filter"))
21:54	Chouser	,(clojure.lang.Compiler/analyze clojure.lang.Compiler$C/STATEMENT (read-string "filter"))
21:54	clojurebot	#<VarExpr clojure.lang.Compiler$VarExpr@510dc2>
21:55	Chouser	,(clojure.lang.Compiler/analyze clojure.lang.Compiler$C/STATEMENT (read-string "(java.util.Date.)"))
21:55	clojurebot	#<NewExpr clojure.lang.Compiler$NewExpr@1033450>
21:55	Chouser	,(clojure.lang.Compiler/analyze clojure.lang.Compiler$C/STATEMENT (read-string "(java.util.Date. 55)"))
21:55	clojurebot	#<NewExpr clojure.lang.Compiler$NewExpr@5b6d00>
21:56	lisppaste8	durka pasted "looks like we have a winner" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73458
21:59	Chouser	I don't know how stable that API will be, but ClojureScript uses it, so you've got a fighting chance.
22:04	durka	cool
22:04	durka	thanks Chouser
22:06	Chouser	note that #=() expressions are evaluated. I haven't found any way that those are dangerous, but I'm not completely sure.
22:09	Chouser	oh, scratch that. #=(java.lang.System/exit 0) does what it does.
22:11	Chouser	clojurebot: feeling lucky?
22:11	clojurebot	I don't understand.
22:11	Chouser	,#=(java.lang.System/exit 0)
22:11	Chouser	clojurebot: still here?
22:11	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
22:12	Chouser	hm!
22:13	durka	evaluated but still subject to the JVM security policies, yes?
22:14	Chouser	I would assume so.
22:14	Chouser	oh, you mean why clojurebot didn't kick it. yes, I'm sur eyou're right.
22:19	arohner	is the command line behavior of clojure.lang.Repl / clojure.lang.Main documented anywhere?
22:19	arohner	clojure.org is empty on that page
22:20	mmcgrana	(doc clojure.main/main)
22:20	clojurebot	Pardon?
22:21	mmcgrana	well yeah chech out the docs for clojure.main/main, either at the repl or in the main.clj source file
22:21	arohner	mmcgrana: thanks
22:21	mmcgrana	np
23:34	danlei	hi! i've got a problem running slime, everything is up to date, i haven't changed my configuration (which worked), but i'm getting "java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/main" when i try to start slime. my classpath seems to be set correctly in .emacs though ... any ideas?
23:35	danlei	(if my whole configuration would help, i'll paste it at lisppaste)
23:36	durka	are you sure clojure is up to date?
23:36	danlei	well, i ran svn up a few minutes ago and mvn installed it
23:36	danlei	so ... yes
23:37	danlei	r1162
23:38	durka	aha
23:38	danlei	running via command line works fine
23:38	durka	are you using the google code repository
23:38	durka	current revision is 1207
23:38	danlei	no, sourceforge
23:38	danlei	did that change?
23:38	durka	that is abandoned
23:38	durka	yes
23:38	danlei	oh
23:38	danlei	thank you!
23:38	durka	http://code.google.com/p/clojure/
23:39	danlei	thanks