#clojure – 2009-01-03

2009-01-03

00:07	Chouser	traffic here: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p1hkQs__fVybaFUEpdsigMg&oid=4&output=image
00:08	Chouser	arbitrary units.
00:31	nibbs	anone working with compojure?
00:31	nibbs	is it possible to use javascript with it to?
00:31	nibbs	what about the clojure-javascript compiler someone is working on?
00:37	dhaya	nibbs: contrib has clojurescript that Chouser worked on, but I don't know the status of that.
01:06	nibbs	http://sourceforge.net/projects/clojure-contrib
01:06	nibbs	where is the actual downlod to contrib?
01:08	dhaya	http://clojure-contrib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk
01:37	chrisn	how does one create a runnable jar file with clojure? Looking at clojure main, it is kind of weird.
01:37	chrisn	main.clj, that is
02:03	dhaya	chrisn: (:gen-class) to generate a main() method, and a Manifest file, didn't work for you?
02:03	chrisn	dhaya: Thanks. I used gen-class then created -main[& args]
02:03	chrisn	I may be using an old version
02:03	chrisn	of clojure
02:04	chrisn	(defn- -main[& args] blah blah)
02:04	chrisn	the -main part is what I thought was weird.
02:04	chrisn	But it worked...
02:05	chrisn	I also don't quite understand gen-class
02:05	chrisn	But I don't need to right now.
02:22	falconair	Hi, I'm having trouble instantiating Line2D.Double from clojure "new Line2D.Double(10, 10, 100, 100 );"
02:22	falconair	how does one instantiate nested classes?
02:23	falconair	oops, just found it
02:24	falconair	Line2D$Double <== dollar sign
02:54	nibbs	how do I pull contrib from svn, i dont know svn
02:58	dhaya	nibbs: http://code.google.com/p/clojure-contrib/source/checkout
02:59	dhaya	svn checkout http://clojure-contrib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/ clojure-contrib-read-only
03:01	dhaya	If git is your thing, you can pull from a git mirror using: git clone git://github.com/kevinoneill/clojure-contrib.git
03:54	nibbs	I have compojure.jar in C:/clojure/ , I have it in my classpath.
03:54	nibbs	how do I import it from the repl?
04:13	nibbs	is it require or :require?
04:22	hiredman	depends where you use it
04:22	hiredman	in (ns ...) it is :require
04:26	nibbs	compojure.jar in C:/clojure/compojure.jar
04:26	nibbs	how do I then import it from the repl?
04:34	nibbs	user=> (use 'compojure.http)
04:34	nibbs	java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
04:35	hiredman	uh
04:35	hiredman	last I checked compojure was more than a single jar
04:36	nibbs	i pulled from github, or cloned to be exact
04:36	nibbs	+jetty
04:36	nibbs	user=> (use 'compojure.jetty)
04:36	nibbs	java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: javax/servlet/http/HttpServletRequest (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
04:36	nibbs	u
04:37	nibbs	wtf they are there
04:37	hiredman	are the jars in your classpath?
04:38	nibbs	yes
04:39	hiredman	are you sure?
04:42	nibbs	hmm now require worked'
04:42	nibbs	(require '[compojure.html :as html])
04:42	nibbs	how do I require several different ones?
04:46	hiredman	(doc require)
04:46	clojurebot	Loads libs, skipping any that are already loaded. Each argument is either a libspec that identifies a lib, a prefix list that identifies multiple libs whose names share a common prefix, or a flag that modifies how all the identified libs are loaded. Use :require in the ns macro in preference to calling this directly. Libs A 'lib' is a named set of resources in classpath whose contents define a library of
04:46	nibbs	works:
04:46	nibbs	(require '[compojure.html :as html])
04:46	nibbs	doesnt work:
04:46	nibbs	(require '[compojure.jetty :as jetty])
04:47	nibbs	(require '[compojure :as cpj])
04:58	nibbs	come on someone?
04:59	nibbs	(require '[compojure.validation :as val])
04:59	nibbs	validation is a dir
04:59	nibbs	how do i import a .clj file?
04:59	nibbs	compojure is a dir with 2 dirs a nd a bunch of .clj files
04:59	nibbs	i can import the dirs but how the rest?
05:00	nibbs	and how do I import seevral names ?
05:00	nibbs	(require '[compojure.html :as html])
05:00	nibbs	(require '[compojure.validation :as val])
05:00	nibbs	how do I merge them?
05:14	nibbs	java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: javax/servlet/http/HttpServletRequest (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
05:15	nibbs	(import '(org.mortbay.jetty Server))
05:15	nibbs	wtf it IS there
05:33	nibbs	who created compojure?
05:38	nibbs	(import '(org.mortbay.jetty Server))
05:38	nibbs	that is the stuff not working it seems
05:38	nibbs	but the classpath is correct goooood
05:40	nibbs	ah
05:41	nibbs	weeeee!
06:18	nibbs	who created compojure? i have some comments
06:19	nibbs	it seems great
06:19	nibbs	but the example could use require instead of use and thus use the namespace
06:19	nibbs	would b eeasier to follow the examples then
06:24	Puzzler	Is there something like def- which is analogous to defn- to make a private definition?
06:26	nibbs	where does GET come form in compojure?
06:46	nibbs	(def pod-server
06:46	nibbs	(jetty/http-server {:port 8080}
06:46	nibbs	"/main" main-servlet))
06:46	nibbs	whats wrong with that?
06:49	StartsWithK	nibbs: GET is in compojure.http under "public macros" section
06:51	nibbs	yeah i found it
06:51	nibbs	but i have a problem with jetty/http-server
06:51	nibbs	i can create it and start it if i leave out "/main"
06:51	nibbs	above
06:51	nibbs	but then I cant find the site
07:07	nibbs	(defserver my-server
07:07	nibbs	{:port 8080}
07:07	nibbs	"/*" my-main-servlet
07:07	nibbs	"/other/*" another-servlet
07:07	nibbs	...))
07:07	nibbs	thats the example in compojure
07:07	nibbs	but it doesnt work...
07:11	arbscht_	nibbs: how does it fail?
07:12	nibbs	HTTP ERROR: 404
07:12	nibbs	NOT_FOUND
07:12	nibbs	RequestURI=/main
07:12	nibbs	Powered by Jetty://
07:12	nibbs	i will aste
07:12	nibbs	paste
07:13	nibbs	http://paste.lisp.org/display/72999
07:14	nibbs	(jetty/http-server {:port 8080}
07:14	nibbs	{"/*" main-servlet}))
07:14	nibbs	i tried that, is that correct?
07:14	arbscht_	that is not like the example
07:14	nibbs	because then in contstucts correctly but stioll doesnt show up
07:15	nibbs	in / or /main
07:15	nibbs	i tried as example
07:15	nibbs	then i get error no mathcin ctor
07:17	nibbs	the sevrer starts obv
07:17	nibbs	but doesnt serv correctly
07:20	nibbs	anyone with an example of a working compojure-example?
07:20	arbscht_	nibbs: http-server and defserver expect routes/servlets as arguments, not in a map
07:21	arbscht_	try something like this: (defserver pod-server {:port 8080} "/*" main-servlet)
07:22	nibbs	like i said i get:
07:23	nibbs	user=> 2009-01-03 13:21:08.159::INFO: Logging to STDERR via org.mortbay.log.StdErrLog
07:23	nibbs	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching ctor found for class org.mortbay.jetty.servlet.ServletHolder (web.clj:45)
07:23	nibbs	u
07:23	nibbs	when using that form
07:24	arbscht_	nibbs: your main-servlet is a function, not a servlet, too
07:26	arbscht_	nibbs: also, to make it easier, do something like this at the start: (ns nibbs (:use (compojure http jetty html))
07:26	arbscht_	you won't need to qualify symbols like http/defservlet then
07:27	nibbs	I hate use
07:27	nibbs	I want the package/function deal
07:27	arbscht_	makes for hard reading
07:27	nibbs	nah the opposite, you see where stuff comes from
07:28	nibbs	but basically i need to change main-servlet?
07:28	nibbs	or just pass it?
07:29	arbscht_	see how the servlet is defined in the example
07:29	arbscht_	it isn't wrapped in a function
07:32	nibbs	ah see
07:32	nibbs	now i get another error but progress at least :)
07:34	nibbs	http://hpaste.org/13568
07:34	nibbs	lissppaste doesnt work
07:36	arbscht_	what are you server and servlet definitions now?
07:36	arbscht_	your
07:37	nibbs	http://hpaste.org/13569
07:39	arbscht_	try setting your server pattern to "/", to dispatch podly-servlet. iirc servlet routes are relative to the in the server definition
07:40	nibbs	booya!
07:40	nibbs	cool
07:40	nibbs	so much thanks youll have thanks for the rest of youe life!
07:41	arbscht_	heh, np :)
07:42	Puzzler	If you want to mark a multimethod as private, do you just annotate the defmulti with a private meta, or do you also have to mark all the methods?
07:42	leafw	Puzzler: the methods are accessible on dispatch from the defmulti, so I guess one needs to set defmulti as private only.
07:48	nibbs	so Compojure is great to organize a site logically but let's say I want to do the html statically, how can I call a specific site like main.html?
07:53	arbscht_	nibbs: I don't know if this is the best way, but you can use http/serve-file
08:05	nibbs	is there no decent application or program for laying out websites? doing statically feels so 95...
08:22	leafw	in clojure/core.clj, in the definition of =, there are a few interesting meta tags that I know nothing about
08:23	leafw	can anybody explain what the :inline does? And the :tag Boolean?
08:23	leafw	is the :tab the return type?
08:23	leafw	the :inline-arities is even more mysterious
08:23	kotarak	:tag Boolean is information for the Compiler. So that it can avoid reflection.
08:24	leafw	kotarak: for the return type, I assume.
08:25	kotarak	I think so, yes.
08:25	leafw	the :inline is also present in (defn compare ... and it looks like its repeating the whole function as a list, like for an eval or a defmacro.
08:25	kotarak	The :inline stuff is also a hint, that the compiler can use the code instead of a function call.
08:26	leafw	but that "hint" is a function on itself -- although for =, it's a java method call.
08:26	leafw	oh I see, for 'compare' as well. Replace it with a java method call.
08:26	kotarak	I guess it's actually a macro.
08:26	leafw	:inline (fn [x y] `(. clojure.lang.Util equal ~x ~y))
08:26	kotarak	The the compiled code contains the code directly instead of a function call to =.
08:27	kotarak	Looks macroistic, no?
08:27	leafw	yes and no
08:27	leafw	its still a fn with 2 args
08:27	leafw	as if it was for an eval, or a macro as you say
08:27	leafw	hum, it's a fn that returns the macro code, kind of thing.
08:27	kotarak	A macro is nothing different then a function. It's just called at compile time.
08:28	leafw	then that's what it may be
08:28	leafw	and the :inline-arity?
08:28	kotarak	Maybe, that only the named arities are inlined?
08:28	leafw	is it perhaps the method to choose from the 20+ methods present in IFn ?
08:28	leafw	by the number of args?
08:28	leafw	it's a bit cryptic, but it makes kind of sense
08:29	kotarak	Probably there is no other attribute to distinguis them.
08:29	leafw	true.
08:30	nibbs	(http/serve-file "C:/" "clojure/progs/pod/front.html")
08:30	nibbs	how am i supposed to do?
08:30	nibbs	icant get it to work
08:30	nibbs	compojure.http/serve-file
08:30	nibbs	([path] [root path])
08:44	Chouser	(doc definline)
08:44	clojurebot	Experimental - like defmacro, except defines a named function whose body is the expansion, calls to which may be expanded inline as if it were a macro. Cannot be used with variadic (&) args.; arglists ([name & decl])
08:51	nibbs	ah got it working
08:52	kotarak	congrats
08:52	scode	I have a namespace/code loading issue, and I'm obviously missing something. If I (require x.y.z), have p in my CLASSPATH, and p/x/y/z.clj exists - it still just fails with a ClassNotFoundException. If I first (load "/x/y/z.clj") I get the same result.
08:53	scode	In this case I have test/myns.clj containing just (ns test.myns).
08:53	scode	And my attempted user simply use (require test.myns).
08:53	kotarak	(require 'x.y.z) note the quite
08:53	kotarak	quote
08:54	scode	kotarak: When I do that, it goes looking for test/myns/myns.clj instead of test/myns.clj.
08:54	kotarak	Then you are using a really old version.
08:54	kotarak	Have a look at the december release
08:54	scode	Oh ;)
08:54	scode	Thanks.
08:55	kotarak	here a pointer: http://code.google.com/p/clojure/downloads/list
08:55	scode	Yeah no problem, I'm maintaining the freebsd port anyway. Just hadn't got the latest tree on this machine.
08:55	scode	I had missed that changes to this were recently done.
08:56	scode	That did it, thanks!
08:57	kotarak	np :)
09:09	nibbs	when I have a HTML file and a CSS file with the layout, how do I call that file? like should I open the html-file still? and how does it know where to look for the css-file?
09:13	nibbs	is there no documentation-system for Clojure? I started writing one, perhaps I should finish it. like: (doc-gen "C:/clojure/programs/hmm.clj") -> hmm.html
09:13	nibbs	which has function-names and their arguments and metadata
09:14	Chouser	nibbs: there's something that produces http://clojure.org/api but that is wiki markup not html, and I don't think the code is available.
09:14	kotarak	I mostly use (doc), anyway.
09:14	nibbs	sure but sometimes you want to overlook a whole package
09:15	kotarak	yes
09:22	Chousuke	there was some other place with documentation too
09:23	Chousuke	apparently generated from the docstrings etc.
09:23	Chousuke	it was posted on the google group some time ago, but I don't remember the details :/
09:25	kotarak	http://d2nbqsesuabw8o.cloudfront.net/tmp/doc-1116/index.html
09:25	Chousuke	right
09:26	kotarak	Hmm.... How does this main thing work again?
09:26	Chousuke	that's a bit outdated though :P
09:26	kotarak	I thought a namespace with a main function is turned into a class, which can be called from java.
09:27	kotarak	java my.name.space
09:58	Chousuke	kotarak: yeah.
09:59	kotarak	yeah?
10:00	Chousuke	I think you just need to defn main
10:12	kotarak	But it complains about not finding the class.... (Yes. Everything is in the classpath. (ns .. (:gen-class)) (defn -main ...) works)
10:16	Chousuke	I'm looking at clojure.main and it only defns a "main" :/ I wonder what it does differently.
10:17	kotarak	no clue...
10:53	nibbs	anyone good with html? http://hpaste.org/13577 , why doesnt that generate the stylized page? must i have the complete path to front.css?
10:57	karmazilla	the body tag should be outside the head tag
10:58	karmazilla	and the meta, title and style should be inside head
10:58	scode	/na
10:58	scode	Oops, soryr.
11:01	duck1123	does anyone know if clojure needs any special permissions for classloading?
11:02	Chouser	it uses its own dynamic classloader, which interferes with applet containters for example
11:03	nibbs	karmazilla: "and the meta, title and style should be inside head", how do you mean? there is no head-tag in the css-file, should i add one? or do you mean inside <!-- ?
11:03	duck1123	I'm getting a permission denied exception from Tomcat after switching OS's to Ubuntu
11:04	duck1123	lisppaste doesn't seem to be working for me
11:04	Chousuke	nibbs: the tags
11:04	Chousuke	nibbs: meta, title and style are children of head
11:05	nibbs	Chousuke: ok but are they in the wrong document then? should they be in.html?
11:05	Chousuke	you have the tags in the css file?
11:06	Chousuke	a css file is not supposed to contain HYML tags.
11:06	Chousuke	HTML*
11:06	Chousuke	just the CSS
11:07	Chousuke	you don't even need <style> with a separate CSS file :)
11:08	nibbs	I dont know why title is in .css, doesnt make snese
11:09	nibbs	http://hpaste.org/13577
11:09	nibbs	those 2 are separate files
11:10	RSchulz	Your <body> element is inside your <head> element.
11:10	RSchulz	Body has to come _after_ head.
11:10	Chousuke	http://hpaste.org/13577#a1
11:11	Chousuke	I fixed it.. I think.
11:11	Chousuke	I'm not sure about the type attribute for link
11:11	Chousuke	but something at the back of my consciousness kept telling me link tags need one :P
11:12	RSchulz	I usually recommend using XHTML, unless it's just some one-off / throw-away kind of thing.
11:12	Chousuke	yeah
11:13	RSchulz	Someone recommended these, but I've yet to see if I think they're very good: http://reference.sitepoint.com/html http://reference.sitepoint.com/css
11:13	Chouser	there are people who know and understand html, xml, and http very well that recommend against xhtml.
11:14	RSchulz	According to http://reference.sitepoint.com/html/link you have your <link> element correct.
11:14	RSchulz	(Whether the href= attribut is correct depends on the layout on your server and how it's presented to the clients, of course.)
11:14	RSchulz	Really? Why?
11:14	Chousuke	Chouser: I think the problem with xhtml is that any error will halt page rendering.
11:14	Chousuke	so you can't have user-supplied html
11:15	RSchulz	That's pretty much browser-dependent, but who defends incorrect markup?
11:15	Chousuke	but I think it's still good to write xhtml; you can serve it as HTML.
11:15	Chousuke	RSchulz: no, the xhtml standard requires that you stop if there is an error.
11:15	Chousuke	RSchulz: many sites depend on user-supplied markup.
11:15	RSchulz	User-supplied content sounds like an invitation to mischief and XSS attacks...
11:16	Chousuke	I'd still write things like page templates in xhtml.
11:16	RSchulz	If there's anyone here who's attending the DC study group at 1:00 this afternoon, do you know if there's WiFi at that venue?
11:19	duck1123	It's usually a good idea to run any user-supplied markup through a sanitation algorithm anyway. Well-formedness checks can easily be part of it.
11:19	nibbs	hmm it works when just doubleclicking the front.html but it doesnt work when I do http/serve-file from compojure, any ideas?
11:20	StartsWithK	nibbs: compojure uses jetty?
11:20	StartsWithK	if so, did you configure your mime types?
11:21	nibbs	isnt there some click-and-drag layout-program for html? i think it nis insane to do it statically...
11:22	nibbs	StartsWithK: 1. yes 2. no. what are those and how do I do that?
11:22	duck1123	nibbs: There are, but part of the EULA, you have to give up your soul
11:22	nibbs	lol
11:23	duck1123	but if you're looking for a good XML editor, I used to love Oxygen
11:23	nibbs	i was hoping weebly would get more advanced but it seems to stay at noob-level(which i am but i need more advanced stuff)
11:23	duck1123	I haven't used it in a while as I'm now 100% emacs, but it has some nice layout features
11:24	StartsWithK	nibbs: http://is.gd/etUU you should add .html (just "html") extension for "text/html" in your server config
11:25	StartsWithK	so when you serv static files with ResourceHandler wrap him in ContextHandler set your ContextPath ResourceBase and MimeTypes
11:27	duck1123	compojure should handle the setting of mimetypes for you
11:28	nibbs	yeah im not messing with contexthandler contextpath etc at all
11:29	StartsWithK	i'm looking at serve-file and yes, it dosn't use ResourceHandler for static files, it should :)
11:30	StartsWithK	i guess when you should return then [{"Content-Type" "text/html"} (serv-file your-file)] then from your controller
11:30	StartsWithK	(i don't use compojure just so you know, only jetty)
11:30	nibbs	ok
11:31	nibbs	perhaps it is easier to use directly?
11:31	duck1123	I use compojure, but not with Jetty
11:31	nibbs	i dont have a controller
11:31	nibbs	duck1123: and how do you do with this then?
11:32	StartsWithK	controller/servlet/view i don't know how compjure calls it
11:33	RSchulz	Is Compojure basedon on an MVC architecture?
11:33	duck1123	you need to create you own controller for your defservlet
11:33	duck1123	RSchulz: it doesn't need to be, but it lends itself to that style easily
11:34	RSchulz	Where is it hosted?
11:34	RSchulz	The sources, that is.
11:34	duck1123	clojurebot: compojure?
11:34	clojurebot	compojure is http://github.com/weavejester/compojure/tree/master
11:34	RSchulz	Thanks.
11:35	duck1123	when it first started, it was a whole framework like rails, now it's just the library
11:35	RSchulz	Thank you, clojurebot
11:35	duck1123	clojurebot: botsnack
11:35	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
11:35	RSchulz	It's _less_ than it once was??
11:35	RSchulz	Right, right. botsnak. I should have remembered that.
11:35	duck1123	less is sometimes more
11:35	RSchulz	Sure, but has it lost functionality??
11:35	StartsWithK	there is no sql/orm in compojure, was it there before?
11:36	duck1123	not really, you just have to make your own folders
11:36	duck1123	but it means that you can do it however you want
11:36	nibbs	duck1123: what class is this controller thou speak of?
11:36	duck1123	I really recommend following the servlet api guidelines
11:37	duck1123	nibbs: for instance, I have a net.mycyclopedia.controller that has just my defservlet and all the path locations
11:37	nibbs	yeah I noticed that before there was a lot of fodler socming with it, boot app etc. kind of prefer this, it doesnt obfuscate. just small and nice
11:38	duck1123	that's not entirely true, as I am now using gen-class to create a class for Tomcat to pick up
11:38	RSchulz	Lau_of_DK (not here at the moment) is working on an SQL access library for Clojure. Search for ClojureQL.
11:38	duck1123	clojurebot: clojureql?
11:38	clojurebot	clojureql is http://github.com/Lau-of-DK/clojureql/tree/master
11:38	StartsWithK	that will be cool when finished, its on github?
11:38	RSchulz	That bot is quite the know-it-all, isn't it??
11:39	duck1123	if it didn't know it, I was going to teach it
11:39	StartsWithK	can i just make one remark with clojurebot, it should respond with NOTICE like a good bot
11:39	RSchulz	hiredman: Clourebot recommendation above
11:40	RSchulz	StartsWithK: Is that an IRC protocol thing?
11:40	StartsWithK	yes
11:40	StartsWithK	privmsg (normal text) is for humans, notice for bots, becouse you never respond to notice
11:40	StartsWithK	so there in no chance that two boots get in an loop
11:41	StartsWithK	bots*
11:41	RSchulz	I don't know, that could be fun to watch. ... For about 20 seconds.
11:42	duck1123	anyone here a wiz with java security and classloaders? http://gist.github.com/42897
11:43	duck1123	I've been getting this error since I switched to ubuntu
11:47	scode	How do you throw/catch exceptions in clojure? I suddenly realized I don't think I've seen that yet and I am unable to find it in the API section. Googling yields some references to contrib libraries that do it. Is there an idiomatic way to do exceptions in Clojure?
11:47	RSchulz	(doc try)
11:47	clojurebot	excusez-moi
11:47	RSchulz	It's a special form.
11:48	RSchulz	It's documented here: http://clojure.org/special_forms
11:49	scode	Thanks!
11:50	scode	(I didn't realize the API section didn't contain everything under the sun :)
11:50	RSchulz	It's generated by code from doc strings and special forms don't carry doc strings.
11:51	nibbs	the thing is I don't know much about html, css, MVC, webdev in general. so I don't really know what I need to do.
11:52	RSchulz	Perhaps the place to start is with some tutorial material on those foundation technologies, then?
11:52	RSchulz	There's tons out there, books, articles, tutorials, Web sites, etc.
11:52	StartsWithK	nibbs: http://www.w3schools.com/ for simple html/css tutorials, https://developer.mozilla.org/en/JavaScript#Documentation javascript
11:53	RSchulz	That's good content, though I don't really care for their presentation.
11:53	RSchulz	It could use the Tom Hickey touch...
11:54	StartsWithK	and, this may be strange, but to get startet with web dev, and if you know python look at http://www.cherrypy.org/
11:54	duck1123	There's always the official w3c specs' if you are a masochist
11:54	StartsWithK	i know its not clojure but on the first page is small working example that shows how easy is to use it
11:57	nibbs	i already have some woking webapps in webpy
11:57	StartsWithK	if you don't want to go in the trouble of learing css for layout, maybe framework like http://code.google.com/p/emastic/ or http://code.google.com/p/blueprintcss/ will help you with that
12:05	RSchulz	Blueprint has relocated: http://www.blueprintcss.org/
12:29	nibbs	in MVC-layout, would V be the actual html-pages?
12:29	nibbs	and model the databse functions
12:30	nibbs	and C the handlerfunctions that takes requests from V to M and back?
12:30	Chousuke	yeah.
12:35	nibbs	I should start using namespaces for my own files. i have my programs in C:/clojure/progs, should i add C:/clojure to the classpath then? then refer to them as progs.program ?
12:36	RSchulz	In the MVC for Web apps, the Views are often page templates such as JSP / ASP / GSP, etc., since static content is usually not an interesting part of responding to a request.
12:39	Chousuke	nibbs: yeah
12:42	RSchulz	And I'd say it's not quite right to think of requests coming from the View. It comes from the user.
12:42	RSchulz	In Web apps, the fact that the result of view rendering is HTML interpreted by a browser which is also the user's agent can lead to some confusion on this point.
13:19	dcnstrct	hi peoples. just thought I'd report that playing with Clojure + couchdb4j is a lot of fun
13:25	Lau_of_DK	Good evening everyone
13:26	Chousuke	evening
13:37	MarkVolkmann	What is the function that returns the name of the current default namespace?
13:41	gnuvince	ns?
13:41	MarkVolkmann	Ah, thanks! So it's a special variable and not a function.
13:42	gnuvince	Happy to help :)
13:43	gnuvince	If you want the name, (ns-name ns)
13:43	gnuvince	(doc ns-name)
13:43	clojurebot	Returns the name of the namespace, a symbol.; arglists ([ns])
13:55	fanda	hello all!
13:56	fanda	i found 2 little bugs
13:56	fanda	1) this Reference isn't updated according to the menu on the left:
13:56	fanda	http://clojure.org/Reference
13:57	nibbs	honestly, is Clojure on Android possible for real applications or will it be to slow or use to much memory?
13:57	fanda	2) new files added in the last Clojure check-ins don't have Eclipse licence, but CPL
14:00	nibbs	http://hpaste.org/13579
14:00	gnuvince	nibbs: why would it be significantly slower than Java?
14:00	nibbs	cant I just force-push it?
14:00	nibbs	gnuvince: runtime type-checking
14:02	gnuvince	nibbs: I don't imagine it would have that big of an impact
14:02	Puzzler	Good morning.
14:03	Puzzler	Hey, last night I worked on some code for contrib. I've already sent in a contributor agreement. What's the process for submitting code? Do I just post to to the clojure google group as an attachment?
14:06	nibbs	in html/page_functions: (defn include-css
14:07	nibbs	does that sovle what we talked about before perhaps?
14:07	gnuvince	Puzzler: I think Rich would prefer you add the code to the Google Code page now
14:07	gnuvince	I seem to recall reading something like that
14:12	nibbs	how do I import several : (:require (compojure [html :as html])) into one?
14:13	nibbs	(:require (compojure [html :as html http :as http])) etc
14:33	Lau_of_DK	Chousuke: Is your version of Clojurebot in action ?
14:34	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: ask hiredman, he's the one running clojurebot
14:34	Lau_of_DK	Oh, I thought you usurped for some reason
14:35	Chousuke	I just thought it would be fun to play with it some and ended up making something that might be easier to work with than the earlies clojurebot.
14:35	Chousuke	earlier*
14:35	Lau_of_DK	k
14:41	Chousuke	I was supposed to poke it some more today, but instead I spent the whole day doing nothing.
14:41	Chousuke	which is a good way to spend a day, sometimes.
14:42	Lau_of_DK	Thats true
14:42	Lau_of_DK	Wait...
14:42	Lau_of_DK	Im uncertain of my answer, I'll have to think it over
14:45	Lau_of_DK	Yes a day of rest is good, once a week :)
15:44	hiredman	clojurebot: latest?
15:44	clojurebot	latest is 1192
15:45	hiredman	hmmm
15:45	hiredman	that is incorrect
15:45	duck1123	bad clojurebot
15:46	Chousuke	hiredman: is it v2? :/
15:46	hiredman	no
15:46	hiredman	I guess I may as well do that now
15:48	Chousuke	backup the brain files :P
15:48	durka	braaaiiinnnsss
15:49	durka	kotarak: feature request: check-completeness on \ef
15:58	hiredman	here goes
15:58	clojurebot	svn rev 1193; Added uniform metadata handling for atoms/refs/agents/vars/namespaces Note - breaking change for agent/ref when supplying validator - validator must be passed using :validator option Added :validator and :meta options to agent/ref/atom Added alter-meta! and reset-meta! for reference types renamed set-validator to set-validator! Validators now can simply return false, or throw Refactoring, added IMeta, IRefer
15:58	clojurebot	svn rev 1194; Added watcher support for agents/atoms/refs/vars Watchers must be agents (add-watcher reference :send/:send-off an-agent an-action)
15:58	clojurebot	svn rev 1195; fixed typo in add-watcher docs, explained var watchers
15:58	hiredman	clojurebot: how much do you know?
15:58	clojurebot	I know 115 things
16:00	hiredman	,(System/getProperty "java.class.path")
16:00	hiredman	hmmm
16:01	hiredman	that will need fixing
16:01	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: Does it still fall for the ol' loop/recur trick ?
16:02	hiredman	it kills running code after 10 seconds
16:02	hiredman	or it does when the evaluating is working
16:04	duck1123	hiredman: have you locked it down so that no one can execute scripts on your host?
16:05	duck1123	I've always wondered if java could be locked down enough that it's somewhat ok to have an exposed repl
16:07	Chousuke	,(+ 1 1)
16:07	clojurebot	2
16:07	hiredman	hmmm
16:07	hiredman	,(println "foo")
16:07	clojurebot	foo
16:07	Chousuke	hiredman: System/getProperty is not allowed in a sandbox
16:07	hiredman	,(System/getProperty "java.class.path")
16:07	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.util.PropertyPermission java.class.path read) (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
16:07	Chousuke	right.
16:07	hiredman	yeah, but i was looking for that exception
16:07	Chousuke	what was wrong with it though
16:07	hiredman	I know what it is
16:08	hiredman	I run it in a jvm with a very low memory ceiling
16:08	hiredman	so it needs a few minutes after start up to clear things up, or starting new threads fails
16:08	Lau_of_DK	,(loop [] (recur))
16:08	Chousuke	maybe the exceptions should be trimmed a bit
16:09	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
16:09	Lau_of_DK	,(println "still here")
16:09	clojurebot	still here
16:09	Lau_of_DK	Thats cool
16:12	Puzzler	how long does it take before it times out?
16:12	Chousuke	10 seconds.
16:12	Chousuke	should make that configurable.
16:12	Chousuke	it is now, but it's a global variable instead of a value in the property map :/
16:18	kotarak	durka: Ok. Noted. :)
16:19	kotarak	geez. a second too late.
16:33	fffej	is there an alternative syntax I've missed for creating structures? e.g. if I do (defstruct foo :a :b :c) do I have to do (struct foo 1 2 3) to initialize it or is there a short-hand I've missed?
16:34	Chousuke	are you sure you need a struct though?
16:34	Chousuke	you could just use a map. :)
16:34	Chousuke	but no, I'm not aware of any shorthand.
16:34	fffej	true - it's to represent a point in 3D space
16:34	pd	fffej: there's also (struct-map foo :a 1)
16:34	Chousuke	fffej: maybe a vector then?
16:34	fffej	pd: that also feels quite clunky, I was hoping for something like foo-create
16:35	fffej	i could use a vector, but i'm pretty sure i'm only going to need 3 dimensions :)
16:35	Chousuke	aren't structs just maps though?
16:36	pd	yes
16:36	kotarak	structs are maps with some optimisation for the keys
16:37	fffej	what would be the idiomatic way of representing a point in Clojure? Am I barking up the wrong tree with struct?
16:37	Chouser	There's a patch floating around to let you say (foo 1 2 3) instead of (struct foo 1 2 3), but rhickey has rejected it (at least temporarily) because I think he has bigger plans for struct maps.
16:37	Chousuke	fffej: perhaps a map is fine
16:37	Chousuke	fffej: it allows you to do (:x point) :)
16:38	fffej	chousuke: true, that's what i'm doing with the struct though
16:38	Chousuke	yeah, I guess it's fine for your use then.
16:38	fffej	chouser: bigger plans are good - Lisp's structs are richer (for example, couldn't find a way of including a struct within a struct)
16:38	Chousuke	fffej: you can write a macro to create the foo-create for you
16:38	Chouser	for a point, I'd use a struct-map or a vector.
16:39	Chouser	Chousuke: or a function
16:39	fffej	chousuke: true, I was hoping that already existed in some corner of Clojure I hadn't visited yet - I'll stick with my (struct point 1 2 3) for now and see what the future brings
16:39	Chousuke	Chouser: that wouldn't def it though?
16:40	Chouser	fffej: you can nest any kind of collection inside any other collection, including structs in structs
16:40	fffej	chouser: what's the syntax for that?
16:40	Chousuke	fffej: (struct point 1 2 3) is as long as (create-point 1 2 3) anyway.
16:40	Chouser	Chousuke: sorry, you're right -- I misread what you were saying. You were another level meta than I. :-)
16:41	Chouser	{:a 1 :b {:b1 :x :b2 :y} :c 3}
16:41	Chouser	that's a map as a value of another map. you can also use maps (or anything else) as keys.
16:42	Chousuke	fffej: or (struct myvec (struct point 1 2 3) (struct point 3 2 1)) if you want all structs :P
16:42	fffej	chouser: but what about with a defstruct, like with lisp I'd do something like (defstruct (sphere (:include point) radius))
16:43	Chousuke	fffej: a struct is in clojure is a map that is guaranteed to contain some keys
16:43	Chousuke	the values are irrelevant.
16:44	fffej	I'm probably saying it badly - if I have a set of known keys in one struct, how do I put them in another without repeating the keys?
16:44	Chousuke	I don't think you can do that without some macros :/
16:46	fffej	chousuke: thanks :) I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything, and it looks like I'm not
16:46	Chousuke	remember that you can add keys to a struct instance, just like any other map
16:46	Chousuke	or actually
16:46	Chousuke	that's wrong; since the result will be a different instance :P
16:49	fffej	i put the code in question at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73029, I'd appreciate any thoughts on how I could make it clearer. It's just a port of some ray tracing code from Ansi Common Lisp (next on the list is paralellizing it with pmap)
16:55	Chousuke	fffej: you could add a higher-order function "point-op" that takes an [op & points] and returns (struct point (apply op (map :x points)) (apply op (map :y points)) (apply op (map :z points)))
16:55	Chousuke	fffej: dunno what that does to speed, but it might make it clearer :)
16:56	fffej	chousuke: thanks, clearer is good. I was going to use pmap and map the ray-trace function between different width and height (e.g. divide it into 2x2 images and compute them at the same time.
16:59	Lau_of_DK	Has anyone fixed some type of pretty printing for clojure yet, or will I have to do it myself?
17:00	Chousuke	I think Chouser was working on it at some point.
17:01	Lau_of_DK	Good
17:01	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: I need it soon, can you mail it to me?
17:01	Chousuke	:D
17:01	Chousuke	you phrased that wrong.
17:01	Chousuke	you should've said "pls mail me the codes"
17:03	Raynes	Rayne wants a Clojure eclipse plugin.
17:05	kotarak	Isn't it called clojure-dev?
17:06	Lau_of_DK	Raynes: Ever heard of Emacs?
17:06	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: on the google group.
17:06	Raynes	Lau_of_DK: Emacs doesn't cut it for JVM languages for me.
17:07	Lau_of_DK	Raynes: Then you havent configured it correctly
17:07	kotarak	I think clojure-dev is an Eclipse plugin. But I'm not sure about how far it is already.
17:08	Lau_of_DK	(which actually is the answer for everything where you find Emacs insufficient)
17:08	Raynes	Lau_of_DK: I configured it fine, I just don't care to use it for JVM languages.
17:08	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: indeed
17:08	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: my complaint about emacs was that it wasn't vim-like enough.
17:08	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: solved with configuration
17:08	Raynes	I'd like to note that I use emacs for everything else.
17:08	Lau_of_DK	Chousuke: Yea, Emacs can among other thing, do everything
17:08	Chousuke	yeah
17:09	kotarak	good olde M-x butterfly.
17:09	Chousuke	it's a platform, kind of like the JVM
17:09	Chousuke	most people just think it's a bloated editor :/
17:09	Lau_of_DK	Yea, only more extensible
17:09	Chousuke	well yeah
17:09	Lau_of_DK	You can even have fly-make for most languages right there in good ol' emacs
17:09	Chousuke	and probably not as fast :P
17:09	kotarak	It lacks a decent editor, though. (<- the usual joke)
17:09	Lau_of_DK	(including java-script)
17:10	Chousuke	kotarak: nah, viper is decent.
17:10	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: what's fly-make?
17:10	Chousuke	incremental compilation?
17:10	Lau_of_DK	Its where everything you typed is compiled/executed and any errors will be displayed directly
17:11	kotarak	Ah. Like :make in vim.
17:11	Lau_of_DK	Possibly, but I wouldnt think so
17:17	Chousuke	kotarak: :make is not automatic though.
17:17	Chousuke	kotarak: nor is it as well integrated as flymake
17:18	Chousuke	integration with external programs is where vim fails, hard.
17:18	Lau_of_DK	nor does it support .
17:18	Lau_of_DK	yea kota, big time
17:18	Lau_of_DK	:))))
17:18	Lau_of_DK	(just teasing)
17:18	Lau_of_DK	Vim has one thing going for it and thats Gorilla, other than that its abandon-ware
17:19	Chousuke	even gorilla shows the fact that vim isn't designed to interface with external components :/
17:19	kotarak	Gorilla is terrible hack. As is the rest of Vim.
17:19	kotarak	But Vim is a good hack. :)
17:19	Chousuke	the editor wars could be solved by implementing a proper vim in elisp
17:20	kotarak	Or even better: Vijure. :)
17:20	Chousuke	viper+vimpulse is okay, but some hardcore vim users will probably find it lacking.
17:20	Chousuke	it's good enough for me though.
17:21	kotarak	In Vim I know where to look when I have a problem.
17:21	kotarak	For emacs I have to learn that again...
17:21	kotarak	Big obstacle.
17:21	Chousuke	I guess
17:21	Chousuke	I never got that deep into vim
17:21	Lau_of_DK	I think getting started with Emacs, using Viper+vimpulse, is a bit like switching from your old Fiat to a brand new Mercedes, and insisting on moving your seats and steering wheel from the fiat to the Mercedes, but hey thats just me
17:22	Lau_of_DK	kotarak: C-h t
17:22	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: but the seats and the wheel are infinitely more comfortable.
17:22	Lau_of_DK	No theyre not, you just know them
17:22	Chousuke	no, really.
17:22	kotarak	It's more like going from a Fiat to a Renault....
17:22	Lau_of_DK	Hey kotarak, no need to bring the french into this
17:23	Lau_of_DK	Anyway, I think this analogy talk got a little out of hand, sorry
17:23	Chousuke	I consider the vim modal interface superior to emacs' bag of shortcuts
17:23	kotarak	When I look at the SLIME threads, I think SLIME isn't less hacky than Gorilla... at least for CLojure.
17:23	Chousuke	because vim is actually learnable; something that emacs shortcuts lack.
17:23	Chousuke	er, no. not learnable: "discoverable"
17:24	Lau_of_DK	Chousuke: Ever tried C-h b ?
17:24	Chousuke	what does that do?
17:24	Lau_of_DK	Shows you all the short-cuts in a given mode
17:24	Lau_of_DK	Pretty discoverable if you ask me
17:25	kotarak	I tried to turn on some sane highlighting in emacs. And it took me an afternoon before I gave up. The things in the help didn't work. But more likely I'm just too stupid to use emacs.
17:25	Chousuke	ah, but in vim you can apply previously learned and discover things without even looking at help
17:25	Chousuke	like I did with d% :)
17:27	Chousuke	I knew d, which is delete, and %, which means "matching paren/bracket/whatever" and d% does exactly what you'd expect.
17:27	kotarak	The basic idea of vi is simple: operator + motion.
17:27	kotarak	Or range + command.
17:27	Chousuke	yeah
17:29	Chousuke	for me, viper is like the perfect compromis
17:29	Chousuke	e
17:30	Chousuke	I can do most things vim can do, and have access to emacs when needed :/
17:31	kotarak	I like the rendering of Vim more than Emacs. Don't know why I have this feeling. Just, somehow, nicer...
17:31	Chousuke	rendering?
17:31	kotarak	Display of font and stuff.
17:32	Chousuke	I use vim from a terminal. :/
17:32	kotarak	When I compare my MacVim with Aquamacs the Vim feels somehow smoother. I don't know. Really. Can't explain.
17:32	kotarak	I used to, but not anymore.
17:32	kotarak	Was too much pain of Windows.
17:32	Chousuke	macvim is a bit more maclike I guess.
17:32	kotarak	s/of/on
17:32	kotarak	Probably. Has some nice integration.
17:33	Chousuke	aquamacs preferences still just does M-x customize :P
17:34	Chousuke	but any rendering problems are definitely solvable with it :)
17:34	Chousuke	I don't even know how many configuration variables emacs has, but I'd guess it goes past a thousand.
17:38	Lau_of_DK	kotarak: Try Emacs23, font rendering is VASTLY improved
17:46	chrisn	Hey Lau, are you willing to try out my demo again?
17:47	Raynes	I think Lau_of_DK is too addicted to Emacs. I suggest editor rehab :>
17:47	Lau_of_DK	chrisn: I absolutely am - But Im headed to bed now, if you have something specific you want me to try out can you send me an email with instructions? If its just git pull and run, then I can do it tomorrow and get back to you ?
17:47	chrisn	git pull, build, ./run_wave_demo
17:47	Lau_of_DK	<Raynes> I think Lau_of_DK <#Garbage not received> hab :>
17:47	Lau_of_DK	??
17:48	Lau_of_DK	./run_wave_demo
17:48	Lau_of_DK	./run_wave_demo: 5: /System/Library/Frameworks/JavaVM.framework/Versions/1.6.0/Commands/java: not found
17:48	Lau_of_DK
17:48	chrisn	ah
17:48	Lau_of_DK	Ive got 2 minz, what do I need to modify ?
17:48	chrisn	I have to do that to get java 6 to work
17:49	chrisn	on my mac
17:49	chrisn	edit the script and just try java.
17:49	Lau_of_DK	k
17:49	chrisn	we will see how good opengl support you have on your computer
17:49	Lau_of_DK	oh man thats a nasty script
17:50	chrisn	I don't trust classpath
17:50	Lau_of_DK	hehe, I can tell
17:52	Lau_of_DK	chrisn: Can we make a deal. For tomorrow you make a working jar file, then I'll pull, type java -jar lambi.jar, and thats it? :)
17:52	Lau_of_DK	I cant reconstruct that entire script in 2 minutes here
17:52	chrisn	what didn't work?
17:53	chrisn	ok, we can try that.
17:53	Lau_of_DK	Cool, sorry it didnt work, have a good night
17:53	chrisn	Do you have mydoggy window toolkit?
17:53	chrisn	k lates.
17:53	Lau_of_DK	no
17:53	chrisn	k
17:54	chrisn	Would it be a good idea to have a git repository that contains versions of clojure, clojure-swank, clojure-contrib, and slime that are all known to work with each other?
17:59	Chouser	the flow of new code and patches from the google group are becoming overwhelming as well.
18:49	dreish	Am I correct in saying that clojure.contrib.sql/transaction is a classic example of what not to do with macros?
18:51	kotarak	dreish: it's not a shiny example. It should be a function transaction* taking a function and a helper macro transaction which basically looks `(transaction* (fn [] ~@body))
18:51	dreish	My thought exactly.
18:51	chrisn	why the that design?
18:51	dreish	I'll freely admit I didn't understand this three days ago. And someone wrote this more than three days ago. :)
18:52	chrisn	why not just the macro?
18:52	kotarak	Because it's not necessary.
18:52	dreish	chrisn: As a macro that spits out 18 lines of code, every time you call it, you're rubberstamping the same 18 lines of code all of your program.
18:52	chrisn	ah I see
18:52	chrisn	A lot of macros aren't necessary.
18:52	dreish	As a single function, the JVM can profile it, optimize it, and inline it where needed and where appropriate.
18:53	kotarak	the macro plus function macro* is a usual pattern
18:54	kotarak	chrisn: then they should be written as functions.
18:54	chrisn	well, couldn't you say the same about with-open?
18:54	kotarak	This is mostly convenience, that you don't have to type (fn [] ...) all over the place, I guess.
18:54	chrisn	instead of a macro, it could take a function that takes one arguments.
18:55	chrisn	argument
18:55	dreish	A lot of macros just do things like allowing the user to avoid having to write the (fn [] ...) themselves, which is nice. Only a handful really need to be very long, and they're using doing something very complicated.
18:55	kotarak	Where macros are really necessary are things like if, cond or or.
18:55	kotarak	Whenever we have to control the evaluation.
18:55	chrisn	or when you need to call set! a million times because of the time of gridbagconstraints
18:55	dreish	Or for, or let destructuring ...
18:55	chrisn	then I wrote sets!
18:56	chrisn	the design. Jesus I can't type today.
18:56	chrisn	I see now.
18:56	karmazilla	fn is a macro :)
18:57	kotarak	it needs to control the evaluation of the argument vector.
18:59	chrisn	I got used to F# and ML where higher level functions and the ease of declaring new functions made a lot of macros unnecessary
18:59	chrisn	clojure's #( syntax also makes a lot of macros unnecessary
19:00	chrisn	(fn [ a b c] is a little wordy
19:00	dreish	chrisn: Sometimes it's nice to avoid the #(), though, because your caller might want a #() inside that, and #() doesn't nest.
19:01	chrisn	true. I found that out the old fasioned way
19:01	chrisn	fashioned
19:01	chrisn	I am done
19:01	chrisn	Thanks!
19:01	hiredman	#() disapears at read time, doesn it?
19:01	kotarak	yep. It is translated into a (fn....)
19:02	dreish	,'#()
19:02	dreish	Well, cjbot should be saying (fn* [] ())
19:02	hiredman	so, uh, what dreish said doesn't matter
19:03	hiredman	,(identity '#())
19:03	clojurebot	(fn* [] ())
19:03	dreish	hiredman: What, the part about how they don't nest?
19:04	hiredman	yeah, because by the time you macro is runing #() should all have been read and expanded?
19:04	hiredman	your
19:04	dreish	hiredman: I was referring to chrisn's statement that macros are unnecessary because you can just require callers to pass you a lambda, which only costs an extra # keystroke.
19:05	dreish	That's fine except then you can't use other #()s within it.
19:05	hiredman	ok
19:05	hiredman	as long as no one on the internet is being wrong
19:06	hiredman	the non-nesting #() bites me all the time
19:06	dreish	Yo dawg, we heard you liked lambdas ... etc.
19:08	hiredman	clojurebot: haskell?
19:08	clojurebot	Yo dawg, I heard you like Haskell, so I put a lazy thunk inside a lazy thunk so you don't have to compute while you compute.
19:08	karmazilla	too much sugar will give you diabetes. so not trying to nest #() is better for your health
19:08	kotarak	clojurebot: #() is not a replacement for fn
19:08	clojurebot	Roger.
19:09	duck1123	karmazilla: thankfully, that's not an issue
19:09	hiredman	clojurebot's sandbox code is full of thunks and thunk passing
19:17	Chousuke	because it's a very convenient way to wrap stuff around code :)
19:51	chrisn	How do you guys setup your ant clojure compile task?
19:51	chrisn	Do you use the CLASSPATH environment variable, or do you set it all manually?
19:52	Chouser	I just run 'ant' -- nothing in my CLASSPATH env var
19:53	chrisn	Then is your ant build.xml hardwired to for each target?
19:54	Chouser	oh, you're talking about building things other than clojure itself? yeah, I don't do that. :-)
19:54	chrisn	I guess it seems reduntant for me to specify both clojure in my CLASSPATH and also in my ant task
19:54	chrisn	yep
20:01	chrisn	you can do -Dclasspath=$CLASSPATH in your ant invocation and then use that variable inside ant
20:01	chrisn	Then I have specified where clojure is only once
20:01	chrisn	finally
20:03	chrisn	:Chouser did you get your slime/clojure/swank setup worked out?
20:03	chrisn	I want to update to the latest clojure and contrib but I am a little worried about it
20:16	Chouser	I don't use those either -- perhaps you mean to ask Chousuke (I know it's confusing -- he apologizes)
20:17	chrisn	I decided to risk it
20:17	chrisn	Now my compilation steps just skip over the clj files
20:17	chrisn	but not certain my build setup isn't messed up
20:20	chrisn	it was my build setup
20:21	chrisn	Would you happen to know a command from java that will use the system-specific command to open up a file?
20:21	chrisn	On mac, for instance, you call open
20:21	chrisn	I am not certain what you use on linux or windows.
20:23	pjb3	When using proxy to extend a class, how do you define a constructor?
20:24	Chouser	chrisn: I don't appear to be doing you much good -- I'm not even sure what you're talking about. Not 'slurp' I suppose?
20:24	chrisn	no, I mean in the editor appropriate for that file :)>
20:24	chrisn	for instance, I have glslv and glslf files bound to the mac text editor
20:24	RSchulz	Yo, pjb3, you met my friend Bruce earlier today?
20:24	Chouser	pjb3: proxy returns a new instance, so there's no need or opportunity to provide a constructor
20:24	chrisn	from the command line, if I call "open wave.glslv" it opens them in my text editor
20:25	pjb3	RSchulz: I did!
20:25	Chouser	chrisn: ah! but you mean from within java not on the command line?
20:25	chrisn	yep
20:25	RSchulz	Cool.He's a great guy
20:25	chrisn	I just don't know java's system calls very well
20:25	pjb3	RSchulz: Yeah, I think we had a good time
20:25	chrisn	in C I would might try "system"
20:25	Chouser	chrisn: sorry, no I don't. :-/ I saw some code that opened a web browser though, if that helps at all...
20:26	RSchulz	Good. I think between his Java work and his long experience with Lisp, he'd be an asset in the community.
20:26	chrisn	that code is in contrib, correct?
20:26	chrisn	for javadoc stuff, right?
20:26	Chouser	chrisn: http://paste.lisp.org/display/61362 perhaps in contrib as well
20:26	Chouser	oh, no, that's not right
20:26	pjb3	Chouser: Oh I see, any initialization I would do in a ctor I could just do to the object after proxy returns it
20:27	Chouser	pjb3: sure
20:27	pjb3	Except for calling private methods
20:27	chrisn	:Chouser, what about classes that have to have constructor arguments?
20:27	chrisn	this happens all the time in swing, for instance.
20:27	Chouser	proxy lets you pass values to the superclass' constructor
20:28	Chouser	but I don't think anything in proxy lets you get to private members of the superclass
20:28	Chouser	nor protected members, I think.
20:29	pjb3	Chouser: Ok, so hopefully I don't need to do that :)
20:30	Chouser	pjb3: right. though even in Java I don't think you can get to the private members of your superclass, can you? So protecteds are the only thing different.
20:31	pjb3	Chouser: yes, put you can define an anonymous class that extends some other class, with a ctor that accesses private things in there
20:31	pjb3	if that makes an sense
20:31	Chouser	hm, ok. I know very little Java. Certainly none of this newfangled inline anonymous class stuff.
20:32	Chouser	chrisn: well, I think I found the code I was looking for, to cause your native browser to open a particular page. ...but it's in elisp. :-P
20:32	chrisn	I am fine with that
20:33	chrisn	Does it shell out, or is it an emacs-specific command
20:33	chrisn	?
20:33	Chouser	emacs-specific, I think. Toward the bottom of this page: http://bc.tech.coop/blog/081120.html
20:35	chrisn	He is using a swing html pane, it looks like to me.
20:35	chrisn	Not general to any file
20:41	RSchulz	pjb3: bsseely_ is among us.
20:42	pjb3	bsseely_: Welcome!
20:42	bsseely_	hey!
20:42	bsseely_	Paul, right?
20:42	pjb3	bsseely_: Yup
20:42	pjb3	I'm working on Keith's fahernheit/celsius program
20:42	bsseely_	cool, making progress?
20:43	pjb3	Yeah, learning about swing, I haven't really used it much
20:44	bsseely_	I've used it some
21:09	TDSmith	hi
21:11	TDSmith	I've been playing with clojure recently- there are some things I really like about it, but...
21:11	TDSmith	It seems like a moving target- a lot of the code snippets I'm finding online don't work with the newest version.
21:12	TDSmith	That's natural, with a new language, but I'm wondering if there are some examples that are kept in sync with the newest version?
21:12	Chousuke	"yes"
21:12	Chousuke	but if you ask me where, then I can't answer :/
21:12	TDSmith	I've never been very good at reading docs- I like code samples beter ;)
21:12	TDSmith	heh
21:12	TDSmith	OK ;)
21:13	Chousuke	the documentation is pretty... scattered.
21:13	Chousuke	the clojure book betas maybe?
21:13	arbscht	some code is typically updated quickly, such as compojure and swank-clojure
21:13	arbscht	and there is clojure itself
21:13	TDSmith	Yeah, well- like I said, I understaznd why that is the case.
21:13	Chousuke	yeah.
21:13	Chousuke	though 1.0 shouldn't be too far away
21:14	Chousuke	things are already stabilising.
21:14	arbscht	by clojure, I mean clojure-contrib, too
21:14	TDSmith	Cool.. actually I really like what I've seen of it so far.
21:15	TDSmith	I'm generally more partial to Lisp-2s, but...
21:16	TDSmith	Clojure looks to me like it might turn into a lisp that would be a real alternatice to CL for real work.
21:16	RSchulz	What does a Lisp-2 really get you?
21:17	TDSmith	Hmm- I'm not saying that it's a better design, necessarily- just that I'm more comfortable with it.
21:18	bsseely_	Lisp-2 has been claimed to be better for macros
21:18	RSchulz	I think it's more important that symbols be separated from names of storage locations, as Clojure does it.
21:18	TDSmith	Well, it makes hygiene.. different a least...
21:19	RSchulz	Vive la differance!
21:19	TDSmith	Sure- I
21:19	TDSmith	'm not really craxcking on lisp-1s...
21:19	TDSmith	I'm just a lot more used to lisp-2s
21:20	Chousuke	I don't think clojure macros have hygiene problems.
21:20	TDSmith	I've never really been able to wrap my head arounf hygienic macros in scheme, though I'll admit that I haven't tried very hard.
21:21	Chousuke	I don't even know how they work
21:21	Chousuke	clojure macros look like CL macros, ` is just slightly different :)
21:22	Chousuke	and as far as I can tell, it's harder to shoot yourself in the foot than with CL :/
21:22	bogolisk	Hi, I'm not trying to troll, I'm just curious about clojure (well I like functional language). What's the difference between lisp (CL) and clojure?
21:22	Chousuke	in what regard?
21:22	RSchulz	Isn't it the case that Clojure's syntax quote (backquote) namespace-qualifies the symbols it encountersj part of that?
21:22	TDSmith	Hmm- well I want to be careful in what I say because I have just recently started to look azat clojure but...
21:23	bogolisk	and what are the advantages of clojure over scheme?
21:23	Chousuke	bogolisk: how about access to a HUGE library of existing code.
21:23	TDSmith	it did seem to me that the macros work a bit differently than in CL because of the hygiene issue.
21:23	TDSmith	And at first glance I think that, all other things being equal I preferred the CL syntax, but...
21:23	bogolisk	Chousuke: oh, so the main difference is the interaction with java libraries?
21:24	Chousuke	that's just a bonus.
21:24	TDSmith	that's as very small nit to pick.
21:24	RSchulz	Well... What would you have to do in a Clojure macro to capture a symbol from the environment in which it is appplied?
21:24	RSchulz	That's the question, right?
21:24	Chousuke	RSchulz: you have to do ~' I think
21:25	Chousuke	it's pretty difficult to accidentally capture symbols :/
21:25	RSchulz	Yes, but that would work only for a symbol given as an argument.
21:25	Chousuke	'~foo too.
21:25	RSchulz	Presumably the user of the macro wants that connection, so it's not really "capture," is it?
21:25	Chousuke	well it's capture, but intentional
21:25	Chousuke	unintentional capture is the evil thing.
21:26	RSchulz	Presumably.
21:26	Chousuke	I can't think of a situation where that happens :/
21:26	RSchulz	If you just inadvertently use a symbol in a Clojure macro expansion, it will be qualified to the namespace of the _macro_, not that of its invocation.
21:26	RSchulz	... Of the macro _definition_, that is.
21:27	RSchulz	But CL macros do nothing to protect you from inadvertant capture. That's the whole "hygiene" problem, right?
21:27	chrisn	:bogolisk I am not sure this answers your question, but I am using clojure because it (and F#) are the only really interesting languages I might be able to use on a daily basis.
21:28	chrisn	I guess I am just a little burnt on java, c, c++, and c#.
21:28	Chousuke	RSchulz: I'm not sure.
21:28	chrisn	I don't feel I could use scheme at work
21:28	bogolisk	I'm still trying to see where it's different from other Lispies
21:28	chrisn	ah
21:28	chrisn	different question
21:28	Chousuke	RSchulz: I don't see why a Lisp-2 is any better from a hygiene perspective than a lisp-1
21:28	RSchulz	Chousuke: That's my understanding.
21:28	RSchulz	No, that's a separate issue, I think.
21:28	chrisn	And there are uses for un-hygienic macros
21:29	chrisn	People always freak out about hygene. There is always gensym
21:29	chrisn	it just isn't a huge deal...
21:29	Chousuke	what's the point in lisp-2 anyway? /:
21:29	RSchulz	The fact that every symbol, no matter how it enters your program, is a potential locus of a binding is a stark contrast with Clojure, at leatst.
21:29	Chousuke	someone educate me. I'm ignorant.
21:30	TDSmith	Hmm- but I think that clojure's macros are different from CL's precisely because of that difference- so it must be significant to some degree, mustn't it?
21:30	RSchulz	bsseely_: Help us out here. You're experienced with Lisp-2s.
21:30	Chousuke	TDSmith: it's rather significant, yeah.
21:30	chrisn	Yeah, some people really hate unhygienic macros. I personally think they are sometimes pretty cool.
21:30	TDSmith	I have to admit that I like the Lisp-1 syntax for function invocation.
21:30	Chousuke	TDSmith: clojure's macros are every bit as powerful as CL's, but you're less likely to accidentally make a badly behaving macro.
21:31	TDSmith	Yeah, I wasn't suggesting they were less powerful.
21:31	bsseely_	sorry, I haven't been following the thread...
21:31	chrisn	:Chousuke I am not certain that is true
21:31	chrisn	finding my example of crazy non-hygienic macro now
21:32	RSchulz	We're trying to untangle the Lisp-1 / Lisp-2 and hygienic / unhygienic macros...
21:32	Chousuke	macros in clojure don't have to be hygienic, do they?
21:32	TDSmith	Though I have to admit that being equivalent in power seem like a rather low bar to set- not that I'm suggesting that clojure doesn't clear highher bars than that, of course,
21:32	Chousuke	you can capture and introduce all the names you want, it's just not easy to do accidentally.
21:32	TDSmith	I used to think that syntax wqasn't very important...
21:32	RSchulz	Chousuke: It's pretty hard to unintentionally capture a variable from the invocation environment, isn't it? (In Clojure).
21:33	Chousuke	yeah
21:33	Chousuke	it's not too difficult to intentionally do it htough.
21:33	chrisn	how do you capture intentionally?
21:33	TDSmith	Anyway I'm not setting out to criticize Clojure's macros here...
21:33	RSchulz	Is there more to the "hygiene" issue than that? (Inadvertent variable capture, i.e.)
21:33	Chousuke	I think you need to use ~'varnametocapture
21:34	TDSmith	I don't know enough about Clojure to be able to do that.
21:35	TDSmith	I did just note some cases where the macro facility does seem constrained by the fact that it's a lisp-1.
21:35	dreish	Can you give an example?
21:35	RSchulz	Actually, I don't think the Lisp-1 / Lisp-2 issues really intersects with the hygienic macros issue. Does it?
21:36	TDSmith	Hmm- well I think I can find a post by Rich Hickey top a mailing list explaining that that's the case...
21:36	Chousuke	something like `(let [~'varname 1] stuff) will expand to (let [varname 1] stuff) that would capture a name.
21:36	TDSmith	You do have to be a bit more careful about capture in a lisp-1.
21:36	RSchulz	Is syntax-unquote an inverse of plain quote?
21:36	Chousuke	just `(let [varname 1]) becomes (clojure.core/let [user/varname 1]) which is an error
21:37	Chousuke	so you can't really accidentally capture things.
21:37	chrisn	ah. That error made me think it was impossible
21:37	chrisn	Paul Graham's On Lisp, chapter 14 talks about anaphoric macros
21:37	dreish	TDSmith: How do you have to be careful about capture in Clojure? It seems to me you have to go out of your way to _get_ variable capture.
21:37	chrisn	Those rely on capture to work.
21:37	TDSmith	Exactly ;)
21:37	Chousuke	chrisn: anaphoric?
21:38	RSchulz	"Backward referencing."
21:38	Chousuke	can you show a small example and I'll try to make a clojure version of it.
21:38	chrisn	thanks, I would have had to look it up
21:38	TDSmith	Capture is sometimes useful.
21:38	chrisn	On Lisp is free
21:38	chrisn	download the pdf, check out chapter 14.
21:38	Chousuke	yeah, but I don't want to search it right now :D
21:38	dreish	TDSmith: Useful enough you'd be willing to type ~' where needed?
21:38	chrisn	ok, hold on
21:38	TDSmith	Probably ;)
21:39	dreish	Well, there you go. Problem solved.
21:39	TDSmith	Anyway I didn't claim that it was an issue of great importance...
21:40	Chousuke	anyway, there's more to clojure than the novel syntax-quote
21:40	dreish	I think it is pretty important, if you think macros are a good thing. I think Clojure has an excellent solution to the problem.
21:40	Chousuke	the idea that lists are not the core of lisp is something that should not be forgotten :)
21:40	RSchulz	Macros? Are they still around?
21:40	TDSmith	Are macros still around?
21:40	chrisn	in his example you need to be able to refer to a variable in the macro from code the macro is expanding
21:41	TDSmith	Is that the question?
21:41	RSchulz	chrisn: Then that variable should be an argument to the macro invocation.
21:41	Chousuke	chrisn: that is possible.
21:41	chrisn	no, it is a specially named variable
21:41	TDSmith	I'm fairly sure that even when I don't write macros I do reference a few occasionally ;)
21:41	Chousuke	chrisn: the proxy macro I think binds "this" to be used in the proxy code.
21:41	TDSmith	but maybe I misunderstood you there.
21:42	chrisn	Ah!
21:42	chrisn	you are right
21:42	chrisn	that would do it
21:43	chrisn	http://paste.lisp.org/display/73035
21:44	chrisn	I love lisp :).
21:45	dreish	if-let is similar, but you pick the name.
21:45	RSchulz	(doc aif)
21:45	Chousuke	(defmacro aif [condition & body] `(let [~'it condition] ~@body))
21:45	Chousuke	oops
21:45	Chousuke	~condition
21:46	Chousuke	and, er.
21:46	dreish	Need an if in there somewhere.
21:46	Chousuke	add (if ~'it
21:46	RSchulz	Wait... Is (aif ...) in Clojure?
21:46	dreish	RSchulz: I don't see it. Closest thing is if-let.
21:46	chrisn	so the ~' is the magic
21:47	dreish	(defmacro aif [condition & body] `(if-let [~'it ~condition] ~@body) ; Maybe that would work.
21:47	RSchulz	chrisn: I think you should paste only things that are self-contained, given Clojure core (and, possibly, Cloure Contrib)'
21:47	Chousuke	chrisn: (aif 2 it) -> 2 :)
21:47	RSchulz	Otherwise, it's not possible to interpret them.
21:47	Chousuke	in my repl here :P
21:47	Chousuke	let's see
21:48	RSchulz	clojurebot: You there?
21:48	dreish	I think mine works too.
21:48	RSchulz	Clojurebot is off-line!
21:48	Chousuke	oh boo.
21:48	chrisn	RShulz: that was an example from On Lisp, I didn't think it was possible on clojure
21:48	RSchulz	So is hiredman.
21:48	RSchulz	We're alone...
21:48	RSchulz	Define "possible!"
21:48	Chousuke	I wanted to demonstrate that macro with clojurebot
21:49	RSchulz	(Turing completeness and all...)
21:49	Chousuke	because I know magics to define macros with clojurebot!
21:49	chrisn	well, literally. I couldn't figure out how to capture a variable without an error
21:49	Chousuke	chrisn: that is a good thing :)
21:49	Chousuke	chrisn: it means it's not likely to happen by accident
21:50	chrisn	Oh, I never did it by accident before ;). I always mean it when I confuse people
21:50	RSchulz	Great. Just what we need. The "Obfucated Clojure" contest!
21:50	RSchulz	As if it's not hard enough to decipher without the attempt to obfuscate...
21:50	Chousuke	anyway (defmacro aif [condition & body] `(let [~'it ~condition] (if ~'it ~@body))) works
21:51	TDSmith	meh..
21:51	TDSmith	anyway I wasn't suggesting that a lisp-1 or a lisp-2 was absolutely better.
21:52	RSchulz	Each are absolutely better than the other.
21:52	dreish	TDSmith: You're a rare person, then.
21:52	Chousuke	Right. I don't care about that for now: what does being a lisp-2 get you?
21:52	RSchulz	And the universe shall collapse upon itself.
21:52	Chousuke	except having to use funcall to call functions.
21:52	TDSmith	well- I suppose that that is equivalent to what I said...
21:53	RSchulz	Chousuke: _That_ is the question. What's the virtue of a Lisp-2?
21:53	TDSmith	Yeah.. actually my first lisp was scheme (though many people don't accept that as a lisp)...
21:53	dreish	Chouser: I think the biggest advantage is that it's familiar for people who are familiar with Lisp-2.
21:53	Chousuke	and being able to have functions and variables with the same names. Which I don't consider a good thing.
21:53	TDSmith	I remember thinking funcall wazs just terrible...
21:54	TDSmith	But that was a long time ago ;)
21:54	RSchulz	All you need is "apply" and "eval"!
21:54	RSchulz	(Or so some book cover told me.)
21:54	TDSmith	Hmm...
21:54	TDSmith	all you need is lambda
21:54	dreish	I thought you didn't need eval? You can write it in terms of the seven primitives.
21:54	RSchulz	Defining a thing is not all there is!
21:55	RSchulz	It's better to replace one thing with seven? Occam is turning over in his grave!
21:55	TDSmith	Let him ;)
21:55	dreish	Even with eval, you'll still need the other seven, so I think that's eight.
21:56	Chousuke	you can write everything with lambda alone I guess
21:56	Chousuke	but that's going to be horrible.
21:56	TDSmith	The onluy way to evaluate whetehr or not it is better to replace one thing with seven is to try it.
21:56	Chousuke	particularly if you want to do arithmetic :D
21:56	dreish	Like a Turing machine? Numbers are represented by how many levels of lambda nesting you return?
21:56	chrisn	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/27912d9dcaec2f24
21:57	chrisn	If I had seen this, I never would have talked about anaphorisms
21:57	TDSmith	Exactly- Lisp actually comes from that idea.
21:57	karmazilla	functions that implement methods for a gen-class... how do I get at the "this" reference?
21:57	TDSmith	But of course...
21:57	Chousuke	ah, that's the thread where I wrote about macros
21:57	Chousuke	I should re-read what I wrote to refresh my memory :/
21:57	Chouser	karmazilla: first arg of each method defn
21:58	karmazilla	roger
21:58	RSchulz	Chousuke: You're Jarkko?
21:58	TDSmith	Anyway that's another good reason to ignore arguments about equivalent power...
21:58	chrisn	Chousuke does sound like Jarkko Oranen
21:58	chrisn	...
21:59	Chousuke	RSchulz: yeah.
21:59	RSchulz	Well, then... Make up your mind...
21:59	TDSmith	Alonzo Church came up with a formalism that is equivalent to.. well, lots of things... well before there were actually computers.
22:00	Chousuke	anyway
22:00	Chousuke	I should be sleeping.
22:00	RSchulz	Yeah, well that equivlance is not a reason for us to write in assembly or some other very-low-level language.
22:00	TDSmith	I agree ;)
22:01	TDSmith	Syntax matters.
22:01	RSchulz	I have a hard enough time expressing myself in first-order-logic, which I have to do in my theorem-proving work.
22:01	chrisn	I am not sure syntax does, but ease of abstraction definitely does
22:01	Chousuke	rather than that, the SICP gurus would say that the tools of abstraction matter
22:01	RSchulz	I consider FOL the assembly of declarative languages.
22:01	TDSmith	well- like I said- when I was young I thought syntax was unimportant.. but...
22:01	Chousuke	ASM has rather crappy tools for abstraction
22:01	Chousuke	... why did I make that an acrony,
22:01	Chousuke	anyway.
22:02	RSchulz	Sweet dreams!
22:02	TDSmith	ASM has beautiful tools for abstraction...
22:02	TDSmith	the best..
22:02	Chousuke	yeah. good night. or morning.
22:02	RSchulz	All of which exist in your mind...
22:02	TDSmith	it has lousy tools for defining syntax.
22:02	RSchulz	Well, Chousuke may need sleep, but I need dinner.
22:02	chrisn	If you love asm's abstraction systems, check out Factor
22:02	RSchulz	See ya' all later.
22:03	chrisn	It really does have good abstraction systems; but you are still manipulating the stack so you do a lot of nip dip slip etc.
22:03	Chousuke	TDSmith: defining syntax is just a tool for abstraction :)
22:04	TDSmith	Sure...
22:04	TDSmith	It's _all_ equivalent, after all...
22:05	TDSmith	\]If you're smart enough you don't need abstraction.
22:05	TDSmith	Unfortunately people are never smart enough to be able to do without it ;)
22:05	chrisn	that is an odd stance.
22:05	TDSmith	Really?
22:05	chrisn	learning works by forming abstractions
22:06	chrisn	The ease of creating new abstractions tends to be a limiting factor in learning any non-trivial system
22:06	TDSmith	Hmm- well I'm talking about computation, not learning...
22:06	chrisn	I know. The thing is, you mind can only handle a fixed number of things at once.
22:06	chrisn	period
22:07	Chousuke	TDSmith: I mean syntactic abstraction is just another form of abstraction.
22:07	chrisn	And it isn't that high for anyone.
22:07	Chousuke	and the number of different abstraction tools and how "easy" they are to use determines the power of a language.
22:07	chrisn	That is the religion that I subscribe to, yes
22:08	chrisn	Not sure I could prove it in any substantial way
22:08	Chousuke	the lisp macro system is an amazingly powerful syntactic abstraction system.
22:08	Chousuke	but not the only one
22:08	Chousuke	there's the C preprocessor, for once.
22:08	Chousuke	-e
22:08	Chousuke	er
22:08	Chousuke	-c
22:08	Chousuke	or C++ templates.
22:08	chrisn	Well, any compiler is a syntactic abstraction system
22:08	chrisn	a macro is just an extension of a compiler.
22:09	Chousuke	well, yeah, their "lisp" is just an implementation detail :/
22:09	chrisn	bingo
22:10	Chousuke	I like to think that all compilers have a lisp at the core because code represented as a data structure is a kind of a lisp
22:10	TDSmith	right- your mind can only handle a limited number of things...
22:10	TDSmith	that's what I'm saying...
22:10	TDSmith	abstractions address insufficiencies in human cognition.
22:11	chrisn	hmm. That is one way to look at it
22:11	chrisn	More likely they define human cognition
22:11	chrisn	clojurebot online?
22:11	hiredman	power outage
22:11	TDSmith	At any rate... the argument that things are of "equivalent powere" is ...
22:12	TDSmith	*power
22:12	TDSmith	I mean writing code into adress space one byte at a time is just as powerful... trivially.
22:12	hiredman	nope, the server it runs on is still offline
22:13	chrisn	yep. And now I see why you said "if you were smart enough..."
22:13	TDSmith	Exactly- I didn't mean you specifically...
22:13	chrisn	The other limiting factor is how much can one person type
22:13	TDSmith	Hmm...
22:13	chrisn	I know (and I knew then, too :) )
22:14	TDSmith	I think if you were smart enough that would cease to be a limiting factor....
22:14	chrisn	Because you would write LISP in assembly.
22:14	chrisn	And then just program in lisp
22:15	TDSmith	No- because you would write software that wrote your software for you, and retire to a beach in the caribbean.
22:16	chrisn	Hmm, if you goal is to live your life on a beach you can do that now, but I see what you mean.
22:16	TDSmith	well that's a hard phiosophical question... what should we do if we eventually make things that are much higher achievers than we are?
22:17	TDSmith	But the point I am making is actually abiut syntax...
22:17	chrisn	Well, I personally believe that most of the first world has everything materially a human could ever need and they would be better off working on themselves as individuals than producing more shit.
22:17	chrisn	but back to syntax...
22:18	TDSmith	Hmm- I have a diferent belief- I believe that human wants are unlimited.
22:18	TDSmith	but back to syntax...
22:18	chrisn	you can only eat so much.
22:18	TDSmith	Sure.. but my wants are not limited to food.
22:18	hiredman	I am an endless gaping maw of desire
22:18	hiredman	shrug
22:18	TDSmith	exactly.. me too
22:18	chrisn	Well, I bet a lot of your wants are driven by your ego. Address that and you would not want much.
22:19	chrisn	Mine are almost entirely driven by mine...
22:19	hiredman	so, speaking of clojure
22:19	TDSmith	Hmm- I understand that idea under current circumstances...
22:19	hiredman	I was thinking, I hate writing php
22:20	TDSmith	Anyway, the point is that good notation matters.
22:20	chrisn	yep, so hiredman, how do you launch a process that can open a file using the program registered with the system in a cross platform manner?
22:20	hiredman	so I should write a register machine in php, then write a compiler in clojure (that compiles some kind of lisp) and targets the register machine
22:20	chrisn	why are you dealing with php?
22:20	hiredman	website I have responsibility for, and webhost I have no control over
22:21	chrisn	they don't use java on the web host?
22:21	chrisn	no tomcat or anything like that?
22:21	TDSmith	meh- I have written some php for money. Evil language, IMHO.
22:21	hiredman	uh, I doubt it
22:21	hiredman	they still only run php4
22:21	chrisn	where are you?
22:22	TDSmith	that is what I wrote in- wass a few years ago.
22:22	hiredman	in 2003 apparently
22:22	chrisn	in some technology time vortex?
22:22	chrisn	heh
22:22	TDSmith	the most confused reference semantics I have ever seen...
22:22	chrisn	no kidding
22:22	hiredman	I found this tool that dumps ast for php in some xml form
22:22	chrisn	can it convert back?
22:23	hiredman	but for a 13 character php file, the AST is over 3000 characters
22:23	hiredman	chrisn: it claims too
22:23	chrisn	did you 13 character php file include another 3000 character php file?
22:23	hiredman	no
22:24	hiredman	it was something like <?php $x; ?>
22:24	hiredman	the simplest I could think of
22:24	chrisn	How fast do the 3000 characters grow?
22:24	chrisn	Did you try a range of files, or just one?
22:24	hiredman	just the one
22:24	chrisn	It could always output the same header or something
22:25	hiredman	that is very possible
22:25	hiredman	I could not get the tool to go the other way, xml -> php
22:25	chrisn	oh hm.
22:25	hiredman	it claimed to have been built without xml support, but had no problem dumping xml
22:25	hiredman	anyway
22:27	chrisn	My buddy wrote a template processor for clojure
22:27	hiredman	I started working on something that just generates php code directly, all of which is really a waste, I should just do the leg work to get the site moved to a different host
22:27	chrisn	You could write a php code generator
22:28	chrisn	Best solution by far
22:28	hiredman	yeah, it reads a file full of (defn foo [] bar) and outputs a bunch of function foo () { bar; }
22:29	chrisn	using the clojure reader?
22:29	hiredman	yes
22:30	chrisn	Feel like running a demo I wrote?
22:30	chrisn	Its opengl
22:30	chrisn	and shaders
22:30	chrisn	and you can edit the shaders
22:31	hiredman	actually, I don't have a working jvm on this machine
22:31	chrisn	good god man
22:31	hiredman	it was on a harddrive that died
22:32	hiredman	and I have not replaced it
22:32	TDSmith	hmm- yeah.. generating php code is tricky because it is not very structured
22:32	hiredman	Yes
22:32	hiredman	I cheat, I have a (literal "") that just dumps a literal string into the php code output
22:33	TDSmith	yeah.. well it's one of those things you can do if you're "smart enough" ;)
22:34	chrisn	lol
22:35	hiredman	ugh, figuring out when to put a semicolon
22:37	TDSmith	syntax matters.
22:39	TDSmith	If for no other reason... if you _have_ to generate lisp as a string for some reason, at least it's regular.
22:39	hiredman	well lisp is basically an ast
22:40	TDSmith	I always like to tell people that it's "pre-parsed".. basically the same idea.
22:40	hiredman	when they invented lisp, the plan was to add syntax later, but they wanted to starting writing code in it asap
22:40	hiredman	no time for syntax
22:41	TDSmith	And it turned out good ;)
22:41	TDSmith	But I have to say that things like Lisp 1.5 don't look attractive to me.
22:42	hiredman	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-expression
22:42	TDSmith	But that's what great about Lisp... it evolves.
22:42	TDSmith	Yep, I am familiar with that idea
22:42	hiredman	interesting the use of square brackets
22:42	TDSmith	Actually Lisp was more of an accident than that...
22:42	hiredman	almost like that hot new language all the buzz is about
22:43	TDSmith	I don't think McCarthy ever meant that his formalism ought to be implemented.
22:44	TDSmith	Anyway- Ivory soap was an accident too...
22:44	TDSmith	and it floats ;)
22:46	TDSmith	But it is certainly a lot easier to work with lisp that with other languages because it is "pre-parsed"
22:47	TDSmith	Seems o striker the write balance between "If you were smart enough" and "You can't possibly be that dumb"
22:47	chrisn	I would think lisp-php would be a lot easier than php-lisp
22:47	TDSmith	Hmm- yes.
22:48	TDSmith	But both are impossible beyond a small subset.
22:48	chrisn	impossible?
22:48	chrisn	that seems rather strong
22:48	TDSmith	Err- unless you're smart enough ;)
22:48	TDSmith	I mean practically.
22:49	chrisn	I would say, if you could write an irc bot that dynamically compiles clojure and returns the result.
22:49	chrisn	You might just be able to write lisp-php
22:49	hiredman	uh
22:50	hiredman	it just, you know, (eval (read))
22:50	TDSmith	hmm... what?
22:50	hiredman	the difficulty is in the sandboxing
22:51	hiredman	man, I really wish clojurebot was back up
22:51	TDSmith	The problem with this is that read is not likely to like PHP...
22:51	TDSmith	You can't write a meta-circular evaluator for PHP in LISP, generally...
22:51	chrisn	but php does have eval
22:51	hiredman	TDSmith: oh no, Iwas talking about the irc bot
22:52	TDSmith	ah. I see..
22:52	TDSmith	sorry ;)
22:52	chrisn	why not write a lisp interpreter in php?
22:53	TDSmith	PHP's eval is basicsally crippled because...
22:53	hiredman	chrisn: that is not a bad idea
22:53	TDSmith	Err- why would you?
22:54	TDSmith	anyway php is just strings.
22:54	TDSmith	but it ios not evn copnsistrently just strings...\
22:54	TDSmith	err- spelling
22:55	hiredman	it would be easier
22:55	TDSmith	?
22:55	hiredman	a lisp interpreter in php
22:55	hiredman	so you just feed it lisp
22:55	TDSmith	hmm...
22:56	TDSmith	That's a terrible idea.
22:56	hiredman	I bet it would be far easier then generating php
22:56	TDSmith	I'm sure it would ;)
22:56	hiredman	(says the guy who was writing a php generator at 3am last night)
22:57	TDSmith	Hmm-
22:57	chrisn	at least you were using your time productively...
22:57	TDSmith	you do see that macros are just a means of writing lisp generators, right?
22:59	TDSmith	This gets obscured by backquote notation in CL, but...
23:00	TDSmith	The point is tht you can deal with the language on the level of symbols when generating shit...
23:00	TDSmith	PHP is just no homoiconic enough to get a marriage license.
23:01	hiredman	as of right now http://gist.github.com/43001 goes into the compiler and http://gist.github.com/43002 comes out
23:02	hiredman	which is not exactly valid php
23:02	hiredman	there is at least one missing semi-colon
23:03	TDSmith	hmm- doesn't look like PHP to me ;)
23:03	hiredman	well, should be run through a pretty printer or something
23:03	TDSmith	meh...
23:03	ericlavigne	Why do you want to create PHP code?
23:04	chrisn	hiredman: you should use a template language to specify the pieces of php
23:04	TDSmith	the problem is that you are embedding so much information into these ugly unstructured srtings.
23:04	TDSmith	But I understnad...
23:04	chrisn	So that you can just do essentially lambda replacement. It would be a ton easier.
23:04	TDSmith	the answer is likely- I have to interface to PHP...
23:05	hiredman	chrisn: interesting
23:05	danlarkin	TDSmith: use some sort of RPC (rest, soap, xml-rpc) ... don't generate code, it will be the biggest headache ever
23:05	TDSmith	hrrm- what?
23:06	hiredman	right now, I have a list of forms like (if ) where there is a specific function that knows how to translate that form in to php
23:06	TDSmith	Yes, that is my point....
23:06	TDSmith	it is unfortunate that you have to do that, but...
23:06	chrisn	right. I might read in a file that looked like "if ( $condition ) { $stuff }"
23:07	hiredman	the actual translator is a multimethod that dispatchs on first
23:07	TDSmith	basically lisp falls down in that case, to some dewgree...
23:07	chrisn	That part wouldn't change.
23:07	Chouser	did you look at clojurescript at all?
23:07	chrisn	This would just help you get the semicolons right
23:07	hiredman	Chouser: nope
23:07	TDSmith	the big wingwith lisp is being able to deal with code in a level that is not azbout characters and strings.
23:07	chrisn	Actually, not sure it helps a ton coming from lisp.
23:08	Chouser	hiredman: translates clojure to javascript. might be informative to you. ...or possibly not. :-)
23:08	chrisn	I generated a ton of c++ code once using python
23:08	chrisn	the code templates were key
23:08	hiredman	TDSmith: well, I deal with the lisp code as a data structure, and feed it through some funtions, which output strings
23:09	chrisn	I think an interpreter is the simplest way to go.
23:09	hiredman	maybe
23:09	chrisn	Full translation to php is really going to hurt.
23:10	hiredman	really, the simplest thing, is just to figure out how to get away from this horrible webhost
23:10	hiredman	but that has nothing to do with clojure
23:11	hiredman	and is not something I can do at 3am
23:11	ericlavigne	this is all about a webhost? no need for PHP libraries?
23:12	hiredman	the webhost of a website I made the mistake of volunteering to look after only offers php4
23:12	ericlavigne	VPS rental is not so expensive as the time spent creating a PHP generator :-(
23:13	hiredman	:P
23:13	hiredman	I have a webserver, I could move it to, I would not even need to rent a VPS
23:14	ericlavigne	oh, but you have existing code for the site in PHP?
23:14	hiredman	wow, there are two clojure groups on facebook
23:14	hiredman	yessir
23:16	danlarkin	ditto!
23:19	ericlavigne	A search for Clojure also turned up the LispNYC facebook group.
23:21	hiredman	yeah
23:27	TDSmith	why do you have this horrible webhost?
23:28	TDSmith	linode is like $30.00 a month and you can run what you want.
23:28	hiredman	it is somebody else's fault
23:28	TDSmith	wwwww
23:28	TDSmith	;)
23:29	ericlavigne	perhaps follow the RPC suggestion given earlier, with the Lisp part running on your own server
23:30	hiredman	heh
23:30	hiredman	that would be cute
23:36	Nafai	I pay $19.95 formy Linode
23:37	Nafai	384 MB of RAM, 12 GIG of storage, 100 GIG (or maybe it's 200) of transfer
23:37	danlarkin	Nafai: that's not a bad deal
23:38	Nafai	Yeah, pretty nice
23:38	Nafai	I'm IRCing from it right now
23:40	hiredman	I know a guy who does IT for a fish processing plant, he has a freebsd box shoved in the corner somewhere for me
23:42	hiredman	$0 a month
23:42	hiredman	except sometimes the power goes out and clojurebot vanishes
23:43	chrisn	Nafai: - do you have a terminal based irc client
23:44	Nafai	chrisn: Yeah, I'm using irssi + screen. But I have also used bip and an ssh tunnel to connect to it from a graphical client from my desktop
23:45	Nafai	http://www.travishartwell.net/blog/2006/04/20_1810
23:46	chrisn	that is a damn sophisticated chat setup.
23:47	Nafai	Been working well for me for almost 3 years now
23:48	chrisn	Essentially you run a proxy connected 100% of the time and then you access the proxy from wherever you want?
23:49	Nafai	Yup
23:49	Nafai	And since I use an ssh tunnel to access it, it's protected
23:49	Nafai	And I can be connected from multiple places
23:49	Nafai	at the same time
23:50	chrisn	So when you want to spend time in multiple places at the same time, you can be connected from every one of them?
23:51	Nafai	Heh. Yes.
23:52	chrisn	Do you think you will be able to use clojure professionally?
23:53	Nafai	Me? Not in the near future.
23:53	chrisn	I hope that I can either use clojure or F# some time soon.
23:54	Nafai	What do you do currently?
23:54	chrisn	I am a senior dev tech for NVIDIA
23:55	Nafai	Cool
23:55	chrisn	I run a team of developers doing projects to help NVIDIA hit niche markets.
23:55	hiredman	Oh, REALLY
23:55	chrisn	I have been trying to push for a more functional language for CUDA with no success.
23:55	chrisn	yep
23:56	hiredman	interesting
23:56	danlarkin	patch the JVM to use the GPU :)
23:56	chrisn	You can right now
23:56	Nafai	I think functional programming would fit well with that
23:56	chrisn	jogl has glsl support
23:56	chrisn	It will partially
23:57	chrisn	I wrote a small demo in clojure where you can edit the glsl files and watch the graphics change.
23:57	Nafai	Cool
23:57	danlarkin	Ooo
23:57	danlarkin	that's neat
23:58	chrisn	I need to refactor the code and come up with a non-stupid name, but when that is done I will announce it on the mailing list.