#clojure – 2008-12-18

2008-12-18

00:00	triddell	ok, I'll try that
00:01	arohner	triddell: the html function in compojure is very simple. (html [:foo [:bar 3]]) => <foo><bar>3</bar></foo>
00:01	arohner	it only returns strings
00:01	arohner	you can easily call it multiple times
00:02	triddell	yes, but inside the function you can run other functions right?
00:02	arohner	definitely
00:03	arohner	(html [:body (foo) (bar)])
00:29	bradbev	Is LispPaste working?
00:30	bradbev	I'm trying to use JNA & gen-interface. I am compiling using ANT. My code basically boils down to
00:31	bradbev	(gen-interface
00:31	bradbev	:name libwinmm
00:31	bradbev	:extends [Library]
00:31	bradbev	:methods [['waveOutSetVolume [Integer Integer] Integer]])
00:31	bradbev	(def winmm (. Native (loadLibrary "winmm" libwinmm)))
00:31	bradbev	however, at compile time libwinmm is not defined
00:33	bradbev	how do I get the Class object that gen-interface created?
00:35	arohner	my familiarity with JNA comes only from reading examples, but how does libwinmm get defined?
00:35	bradbev	in is the :name option to gen-interface
00:35	bradbev	I have a libwinmm.class file in my classes dir
00:36	arohner	oh, sorry
00:36	bradbev	np
00:38	bradbev	ah - after I gen-interface I need to then import that class :)
00:38	arohner	that makes sense :-)
00:39	bradbev	er, forget that - compiled in the wrong window :(
00:50	arohner	bradbev: did you try using load rather than import?
00:50	bradbev	um, no
00:51	bradbev	load is looking for Clojure code - foo.clj or foo__init.class
00:52	Nafai	Has anyone tried to use the new AOT compiler to use code to run on the Android platform?
00:56	arohner	bradbev: is your classes directory in your class path?
00:56	bradbev	arohner: yes
00:56	arohner	sorry, I've only played with gen-class, and that was a little while ago
00:58	bradbev	were you using the gen'd classes from java or from Clojure?
01:00	arohner	from clojure
01:01	arohner	I was loading them without the original source
01:02	arohner	what is the error you are getting?
01:04	bradbev	import is failing to find the class. [java] java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: java/lang/Library (server.clj:35) I'm building with ANT, so the callstack is silly
01:08	arohner	try using the fully qualified name for Library
01:09	bradbev	arohner: that's the funny thing. what should the fully qualified library name be?
01:10	bradbev	I'm a bit of a neophyte
01:10	arohner	well, you say :extends [Library]. That's looking for a specific java class name
01:11	arohner	similar to saying in java
01:11	arohner	class libwinmm : Library
01:11	bradbev	yes, Library's full name is com.sun.jna.Library
01:12	arohner	so use that in the extends line
01:12	arohner	I think I remember seeing a bug that gen-class does not pay attention to imports yet
01:12	bradbev	oh crap, forgot that needed to be fully qualed
01:12	bradbev	woohoo
01:12	bradbev	that's it - awesome
01:12	arohner	great
01:13	bradbev	well - it compiles at least :)
01:13	arohner	a good start :-)
02:59	Lau_of_DK	Top of the morning gents
03:00	fffej	hi - quick question - am I going mad or is there no function is the standard library to get the length of a sequence?
03:00	Lau_of_DK	(doc count)
03:00	clojurebot	Returns the number of items in the collection. (count nil) returns 0. Also works on strings, arrays, and Java Collections and Maps; arglists ([coll])
03:00	Lau_of_DK	fffej: How about count ?
03:01	fffej	count looks good to me, was expecting to see it on the sequences api page on the web :)
03:01	fffej	and I've been searching for size / length etc!
03:01	fffej	thanks!
03:03	Lau_of_DK	Youre not the first one to ask that question... this week :)
03:10	hiredman	,(count "foo")
03:10	clojurebot	3
03:10	hiredman	,(println "hello world")
03:10	clojurebot	hello world
03:10	hiredman	tada
03:11	hiredman	don't break it
03:28	hiredman	what is the best way to control which namespace (eval ...) evals in
03:42	hiredman	,(println ns)
03:42	clojurebot	#<Namespace foo>
03:42	hiredman	guess that works
03:52	Lau_of_DK	,(println "/part #clojure")
03:52	clojurebot	/part #clojure
03:52	Lau_of_DK	:)
03:52	Lau_of_DK	One of these days I'll get it :)
03:52	hiredman	snort
03:52	hiredman	yeah
03:52	hiredman	I bet you will, I am pretty sloppy
03:52	Lau_of_DK	Is it running on a hosted system somewhere, or you got it at home?
03:53	hiredman	it is running on a webserver somewhere in sumner, wa
03:53	Lau_of_DK	ok, s� crashing it is not really a good idea
03:54	hiredman	shrug
03:54	hiredman	the webserver has a tendency to crash any time it rains anyway
03:54	Lau_of_DK	not good
03:55	Lau_of_DK	I actually found a pretty great hosting service where you could get a virtual server for next to no money
03:55	hiredman	shrug
03:55	Lau_of_DK	,(doseq [i (range 5)] (println i))
03:55	clojurebot	0 1 2 3 4
03:56	Lau_of_DK	,(println (System/getProperty "java.class.path"))
03:56	hiredman	right now it is just running in a jvm sandbox
03:56	hiredman	I should do some filtering of "naughty" forms
03:56	Lau_of_DK	How did you set it up ?
03:57	hiredman	clojurebot: sandbox?
03:57	clojurebot	sandbox is http://calumleslie.blogspot.com/2008/06/simple-jvm-sandboxing.html
03:57	Lau_of_DK	perfect
03:58	Lau_of_DK	,(println (iterate inc 1))
03:58	hiredman	hmm
03:58	Lau_of_DK	,(println "still here")
03:58	clojurebot	still here
03:58	hiredman	cool, I kind of expected that to break it
03:59	hiredman	whoop
03:59	hiredman	s
03:59	hiredman	hah
04:00	hiredman	that does run in the sandbox, but it blows the heap, so nothing gets sent to the channel
04:01	hiredman	the latest clojurebot, with the sandbox stuff is pushed out
04:01	hiredman	clojurebot: where are you?
04:01	clojurebot	http://gist.github.com/27733
04:02	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: So it blows the heap but the Bot still runs ?
04:02	hiredman	yeah
04:02	Lau_of_DK	It threads out the evals ?
04:03	hiredman	guess so
04:03	Lau_of_DK	hehe
04:03	Lau_of_DK	pretty robust
04:03	hiredman	OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space
04:04	Lau_of_DK	,(map #(println (iterate inc %)) (iterate inc 3))
04:04	Lau_of_DK	,(println "still here")
04:04	clojurebot	still here
04:04	Lau_of_DK	hehe, thats cool
04:04	Lau_of_DK	and he even held the tension there for about 10 secs
04:05	hiredman	blew the heap again
04:06	hiredman	,(.getContents (java.io.URL. "http://google.com"))
04:07	hiredman	I guess I should catch exceptions and throw an error
04:08	Lau_of_DK	Which class does getContents belong do ?
04:08	Lau_of_DK	Here the URL is in Java.net
04:08	hiredman	I maybe misremebering
04:08	hiredman	yeah
04:08	hiredman	net
04:09	Lau_of_DK	Where did you find getContents ?
04:09	hiredman	java.net.URL
04:10	hiredman	getContent
04:10	hiredman	no s
04:11	Lau_of_DK	,(.getContent (java.net.URL. "http://www.google.dk"))
04:11	Lau_of_DK	,(println (.getContent (java.net.URL. "http://www.google.dk")))
04:12	Lau_of_DK	,(print (/ 2 0))
04:12	Lau_of_DK	clojurebot: where are you?
04:12	clojurebot	http://gist.github.com/27733
04:24	hiredman	,(java.util.Date.)
04:24	clojurebot	Thu Dec 18 01:24:10 PST 2008
04:29	tsdh	Hi. I'm pretty new to clorjure and play a bit with it now. I want to access a java class, so I did "(ns jg (:import (de.uni_koblenz.jgralab JGraLab)))" and am now in namespace jg at the REPL. What's the correct way to access the static member JGraLab.version now? I tried "JGraLab/version" but got "java.lang.Exception: No such namespace: JGraLab (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)".
04:29	hiredman	what does JGraLab return at the repl?
04:31	tsdh	de.uni_koblenz.jgralab.JGraLab
04:31	hiredman	hmmm
04:31	nagnals	can I see the implementation of a function from the interactive prompt?
04:32	hiredman	nagnals: there is a function in contrib somewhere for that
04:32	hiredman	never used it, not sure where it is
04:32	hiredman	repl utils or something
04:32	nagnals	when writing a function like sort or reversed, do i have to use multimethods if i want them to return the same sort as they were passed?
04:32	hiredman	tsdh: what exactly did you type at the prompt to get the no such namespace error?
04:32	nagnals	and is it possible to cons to a vector and keep it a vector?
04:33	hiredman	nagnals: use conj
04:33	hiredman	,(conj [] :a :b)
04:33	clojurebot	[:a :b]
04:33	hiredman	,(conj [:a] :b)
04:33	clojurebot	[:a :b]
04:33	hiredman	etc
04:33	tsdh	hiredman: JGraLab/version RET (and version is a public static String in JGraLab)
04:33	hiredman	tsdh: parens
04:33	hiredman	maybe
04:34	tsdh	hiredman: No parens
04:34	hiredman	that wasn't a question
04:34	hiredman	are you running a recent svn?
04:35	tsdh	hiredman: Sorry. ;-) With parens I get "java.lang.NoSuchFieldException: version (NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)" and now I see that the error sits in front of the monitor. version is private...
04:35	nagnals	hiredman: yes but i want to cons to the beginning of the list/vector, not the end
04:35	hiredman	nagnals: vectors grow at the end
04:35	hiredman	lists at the begining
04:36	hiredman	,(conj `(:a) :b)
04:36	clojurebot	(:b :a)
04:36	nagnals	yes
04:37	hiredman	,(println "Yes.")
04:37	clojurebot	Yes.
04:39	hiredman	http://clojure.org/sequences <-- the text blob at the beginning
04:47	tsdh	Is it possible to redirect System.out to the repl?
04:48	hiredman	uh
04:48	hiredman	do you mean out -> in
04:48	hiredman	because System.out should print out at the repl
04:49	hiredman	(println "foo")
04:51	tsdh	That works, but (JGraLab/main (make-array String 0)), which only prints the version and some other infos using System.out.println() didn't produce any visible output.
04:51	nagnals	can I hide a function in a file or namespace?
04:52	hiredman	(doc defn-)
04:52	clojurebot	same as defn, yielding non-public def; arglists ([name & decls])
04:53	hiredman	tsdh: are you sure it is outputing anything?
04:54	tsdh	hiredman: Yes, at least when run with java.
04:55	tsdh	hiredman: With (JGraLab/main (make-array String 0)) it returns nil, but no output.
04:56	nagnals	is slurp a common name to use to read in files, ie not just on Clojure but it is a general saying in programming?
04:56	hiredman	shrug
04:57	dhaya	tsdh: are you using the repl in emacs?
04:58	tsdh	dhaya: Yes, with slime and swank-clojure.
04:58	nagnals	hiredman: ok but defn- defs so i can call it from the prompt but I cant call it if i import a file o use load-file?
04:58	dhaya	tsdh: check the inferior-lisp buffer.
04:59	tsdh	dhaya: Oh, indeed, there it is.
04:59	hiredman	slangan: I believe it stops you from calling the function from outside the namespace it is defined in
05:00	hiredman	I have yet to use it for anything
05:00	hiredman	clojurebot: hiredman is also lazy
05:00	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
05:02	slangan	yeah because if i put it in user.clj i can still call it
05:05	hiredman	namespaces ~= java pacakages, defn- is like a private method
05:08	hiredman	er
05:08	hiredman	not private
05:08	hiredman	protected
05:16	slangan	would it be possible to run clojure on a cellphone that can run the JVM? or would the dynamicy create to much overhead at runtime? or does AOT-compilation solve that so I can create execs from clojure-scripts?
05:17	slangan	Android use the Dalvik Vm, that means Cloure can't be run on it right?
05:17	hiredman	it depends
05:17	hiredman	it is a topic of on going interest
05:18	hiredman	a lot of java phones really have the j2me not full java
05:19	hiredman	I think scala is running on android
05:19	hiredman	clojure uses a dynamic class loader deal (sometimes) which the phones and also applets don't like
05:27	slangan	hmm, oh well im writing a web/mobile app i can have the webapp in clojure and write the mobile part in java. no biggie.
05:28	slangan	if i want to host a webapp for free, where should i do it?
05:29	hiredman	uh
05:29	hiredman	there are at least two frameworks for doing web stuff in clojure
05:30	hiredman	clojurebot: webjure
05:30	clojurebot	webjure is http://code.google.com/p/webjure/
05:30	hiredman	clojurebot: compojure
05:30	clojurebot	compojure is http://github.com/weavejester/compojure/tree/master
05:31	AWizzArd	Moin moin
05:32	hiredman	,(println "Hello")
05:32	clojurebot	Hello
05:35	AWizzArd	clojurebot: max people
05:35	clojurebot	max people is 113
05:35	AWizzArd	uh, yesterday it was 116
05:35	hiredman	yeah, stuff happened
05:35	AWizzArd	clojurebot: max people is 116
05:35	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
05:35	hiredman	the dumpdicts agent was running
05:35	hiredman	are
05:35	hiredman	was not running
05:36	hiredman	so some data was lost when I restarted the bot
05:36	AWizzArd	ic
05:36	AWizzArd	clojurebot: max people
05:36	clojurebot	max people is 116
05:36	AWizzArd	danke
05:36	hiredman	but now the dumpdicts agent starts its self
05:36	hiredman	so I won't forget to run it
05:36	hiredman	but sandboxing works now!
05:37	hiredman	,(conj {:a} :b)
05:37	hiredman	er
05:37	hiredman	it was
05:37	hiredman	damn it
05:37	AWizzArd	,(format "C:\")
05:39	hiredman	something broke it
05:41	hiredman	,(println :foo)
05:41	clojurebot	:foo
05:42	hiredman	,(format)
05:42	clojurebot	:DENIED
05:45	Lau_of_DK	,(map #(print %) (range 5000))
05:45	clojurebot	(nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil
05:45	AWizzArd	,(eval 1)
05:45	clojurebot	1
05:46	hiredman	btw
05:47	hiredman	,(println ns)
05:47	clojurebot	#<Namespace foo>
05:47	AWizzArd	,((resolve (symbol "format")) "Hello Moon")
05:47	clojurebot	Hello Moon
05:47	AWizzArd	(format "Hello World")
05:48	hiredman	(doc format)
05:48	clojurebot	Formats a string using java.lang.String.format, see java.util.Formatter for format string syntax; arglists ([fmt & args])
05:48	AWizzArd	,(format "Hello World")
05:48	clojurebot	Hello World
05:48	hiredman	says :DENIED for an exception
05:49	AWizzArd	,(Thread/sleep 5000)
05:49	AWizzArd	,(format "Hello World")
05:49	clojurebot	Hello World
05:50	hiredman	I need to filter out stuff like Thread, recur, etc
05:51	AWizzArd	,(.getCanonicalPath (java.io.File. "."))
05:51	clojurebot	:DENIED
05:51	hiredman	no io
05:51	AWizzArd	good
05:51	hiredman	clojurebot: sandbox
05:51	clojurebot	sandbox is http://calumleslie.blogspot.com/2008/06/simple-jvm-sandboxing.html
05:54	hiredman	,(def bedtime (Date.))
05:54	clojurebot	#'foo/bedtime
05:54	hiredman	,bedtime
05:55	hiredman	hmm
05:55	hiredman	,(str bedtime)
05:55	clojurebot	Thu Dec 18 02:54:46 PST 2008
06:08	Chousuke	hiredman: maybe you should disallow def; it should be rather easy to cause clojurebot to run out of memory if I can def arbitrary stuff.
06:09	AWizzArd	Could would be to (send-off) every form entered here in chat into its own thread, with a timeout of max 5 secs.
06:09	AWizzArd	So, small calculations would be allowed.
06:11	AWizzArd	and every 3 minutes without any def should clear the namespace
06:11	Chousuke	,(defn hello [name] (println "Hi " (str name) ", welcome to #clojure!"))
06:11	clojurebot	#'foo/hello
06:11	Chousuke	,(hello 'test-person)
06:11	clojurebot	Hi test-person , welcome to #clojure!
06:11	Chousuke	hm. too manu spaces.
06:12	AWizzArd	this hello could be auto-deleted after 3 minutes without input
06:12	Chousuke	sometimes you want to keep the stuff though
06:14	leafw	is there any built-in efficient way to get a list of repeated entries in a vector?
06:15	Chousuke	,(defn hello [name] (println "Hi" (str name ",") "welcome to #clojure!"))
06:15	clojurebot	#'foo/hello
06:15	AWizzArd	hiredman: something like (doseq [obj (ns-interns 'your.namespace)] (ns-unmap obj))
06:15	AWizzArd	,ns
06:15	Chousuke	leafw: not into a vector, but you can get a sequence.
06:15	leafw	that would do
06:15	AWizzArd	,(print ns)
06:15	clojurebot	#<Namespace foo>
06:15	leafw	can only think of this: (reduce #(conj %1 %2) #{} [1 2 3 4 4 4 3 3])
06:15	AWizzArd	,(ns-interns 'foo)
06:15	leafw	which gives me the non-repeated ...
06:15	clojurebot	{bedtime #'foo/bedtime, g #'foo/g, hello #'foo/hello}
06:16	AWizzArd	,(ns-unmap 'foo 'hello)
06:16	AWizzArd	,(ns-interns 'foo)
06:16	clojurebot	{bedtime #'foo/bedtime, g #'foo/g}
06:17	AWizzArd	hiredman: in my above suggestion I forgot the namespace argument to (ns-unmap ...)
06:18	Chousuke	leafw: oh, I misunderstood your question. hmm
06:19	leafw	I would like to count the repeated entries, really
06:21	AWizzArd	leafw: what do you know about the structure of this vector? Is it sorted?
06:21	AWizzArd	or could it be [1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3]?
06:21	hiredman	Chousuke: shrug
06:22	hiredman	I can just restart it
06:22	leafw	not sorted
06:22	leafw	a list of random integers
06:22	AWizzArd	leafw: maybe then simply (- (count coll) (count (set coll)))
06:23	leafw	aha, turning a collection into a set ..
06:23	AWizzArd	obviously it's not a highly performant solution
06:23	Chousuke	,g
06:23	hiredman	Chousuke: needs ,(
06:23	leafw	thanks AWizzArd
06:24	Chousuke	,(eval g)
06:24	clojurebot	foo$g__718@a6cbf7
06:24	Chousuke	well that doesn't tell me much :p
06:24	Chousuke	,(g)
06:24	clojurebot	:DENIED
06:24	hiredman	,(meta g)
06:24	hiredman	,(meta #'g)
06:24	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace foo>, :name g, :file "NO_SOURCE_FILE", :arglists ([x]), :line 0}
06:24	Chousuke	,(doc prn)
06:24	clojurebot	------------------------- clojure.core/prn ([& more]) Same as pr followed by (newline). Observes flush-on-newline
06:24	Chousuke	hmm :)
06:25	hiredman	g is identity
06:25	hiredman	,(g :x)
06:25	clojurebot	:x
06:29	AWizzArd	,(in-ns 'user)
06:29	clojurebot	user
06:29	AWizzArd	,(print ns)
06:29	clojurebot	#<Namespace foo>
06:30	AWizzArd	:-)
06:30	hiredman	it is subvertable
06:30	lisppaste8	leafw pasted "no locks" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72339
06:30	AWizzArd	phat h@ck
06:31	leafw	that paste: some of the results indicate it worked fine, but the count of repeated entries suggests that it didn't
06:31	leafw	.. which is puzzling: dosync calls should prevent it.
06:32	leafw	if there were any repeated entries, the next available id wouldn't be 1000000.
06:33	Chousuke	hm
06:33	Chousuke	maybe they're skipping IDs.
06:33	leafw	the length is 1000000 as well.
06:35	leafw	it was a simple test for synchronization ... and I don't understand the contradictory results.
06:37	AWizzArd	leafw: you set next-id to the result of what the commute produces
06:37	AWizzArd	You must not read the direct result of commute.
06:37	leafw	AWizzArd: true
06:38	AWizzArd	If you want to do this you should use alter
06:38	Chousuke	commute may return a different value than what commute eventually sets the id to it seems.
06:38	leafw	aha
06:38	leafw	ok, this makes sense
06:39	leafw	so alter would work in the same sense as commute, but return the newly added value?
06:40	AWizzArd	leafw: you want to read this thread: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_frm/thread/e575db4718c1f85/c2cb536f9500d31f?tvc=1&fwc=1
06:40	leafw	the doc says it returns the in-transaction-value of ref ...
06:41	AWizzArd	just run your code again with (let (alter ..
06:42	leafw	I'm reading the thread. I am not sure that alter garantees continuous ids ... will try now
06:42	AWizzArd	alter guarantees continous ids
06:43	leafw	great
06:43	leafw	it does. Thanks AWizzArd
06:43	AWizzArd	yup
06:43	AWizzArd	just never read the direct result of commute
06:45	leafw	well: sometimes it may be useful. But I see that it has no place here.
06:54	AWizzArd	if you want the direct result use alter
07:00	leafw	do vectors have structural sharing?
07:31	nagnals	clojurebot: git is http://www.github.com
07:31	clojurebot	Roger.
07:31	nagnals	clojurebot: git
07:31	clojurebot	git is http://www.github.com
07:41	Chouser	leafw: yes
07:55	leafw	Chouser: I guess that was a 'yes' to "do vectors have structural sharing" ?
07:56	Chouser	yes, vectors have structural sharing.
07:59	leafw	thanks
08:01	AWizzArd	Chouser: Good morning. Do you always scroll up and read what was said since you went to bed? Or was it just an "accident" that you saw leafws question? ;-)
08:03	nagnals	how do I get the string from running time?
08:04	nagnals	i playa round with geentic programming and i want to include execution in the fitnessfunction.
08:04	AWizzArd	You mean the (time) macro?
08:05	AWizzArd	nagnals: do you do GP or GA?
08:08	AWizzArd	If you want to catch what (time ..) reported you will have to bind out to your own output string stream. This is trivially done by using (with-out-str (time (+ 1 2)))
08:09	jdz	why not use the difference between start time and end time instead?
08:09	Lau_of_DK	AWizzArd: I think he usually skims the logs
08:19	nagnals	why cant errors return what row IN MY PROGRAM the error happened? it makes debugging hell
08:19	nagnals	not getting that infp
08:49	slangan	hmm, perhaps a dumb question but if i have a lets say 10 variables and sometime si pass 5 of them to a function and sometimes 10, does it amke sense to use a hashmap and store them there and just pass that around instead? it just means i can pass around less variables which perhaps is a pointless win? is there any runtimepenaly of looking up stuff ina hashmap compared to just referring to a passed var?
08:49	slangan	Why can't errors return what row IN MY PROGRAM the error happened? It makes debugging hell not getting that info.
08:50	rhickey	slangan: they can
08:52	slangan	but not always?
08:52	rhickey	(.printStackTrace *e)
08:53	duck1123	slangan: if you're using the REPL, that'll mess things up
08:54	duck1123	slangan: Are you doing this from the command line, or using an editor? (ie. emacs+slime)
08:54	slangan	rhickey: thats what i mean already get that but it doesnt say where in MY PROGRAM it happened?
08:55	rhickey	slangan: how did you load your program?
08:55	slangan	emacs+clojure-mode
08:55	slangan	C-c C-l
08:57	rhickey	it might have to do with the specific error, most times you'll get the line in your file, can you paste your stack trace?
08:58	rhickey	lisppaste8: url
08:58	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
09:19	acieroid	ow, functions must be defined before calling it into another function
09:20	rhickey	acieroid: you can (declare foo) (defn bar [] ... foo) (defn foo [] ...)
09:20	acieroid	'kay rhickey
09:30	Chouser	AWizzArd: most of the time I scroll back and read the log from overnight.
09:30	AWizzArd	nice :-)
09:30	Chouser	AWizzArd: ...unless I find it to be an overwhelming amount of traffic.
09:35	RSchulz	FWIW, I usually go back over the night's exchange in the morning, too. It seems traffic is picking up.
09:40	Chouser	indeed.
09:40	Chouser	but I have trouble shaking the compulsion to hunt down and root out misinformation.
09:41	Chouser	...so I skim growing logs.
09:43	Chousuke	hmm
09:44	Chousuke	,(def persistent-defs #{})
09:44	clojurebot	#'foo/persistent-defs
09:44	Chousuke	,(defn clear-defs [] (binding [persistent-defs (into #{'clear-defs 'persistent-defs} persistent-defs)] (doseq [obj (ns-interns ns)] (when-not (persistent-defs (first obj)) (ns-unmap ns (first obj))))))
09:44	clojurebot	#'foo/clear-defs
09:45	Chousuke	,(ns-interns ns)
09:45	clojurebot	{bedtime #'foo/bedtime, status #'foo/status, clear-defs #'foo/clear-defs, g #'foo/g, persistent-defs #'foo/persistent-defs}
09:45	Chousuke	,(clear-defs)
09:45	Chousuke	,(ns-interns ns)
09:45	clojurebot	{clear-defs #'foo/clear-defs, persistent-defs #'foo/persistent-defs}
09:47	Chousuke	now there's at least a way to reset clojurebot if it accumulates too many global defs.
09:48	AWizzArd	exactly, good good
10:02	lisppaste8	triddell pasted "Compojure Error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72345
10:02	Chousuke	,(do (defn make-persistent [sym] (assert (symbol? sym)) (def persistent-defs (into persistent-defs #{sym}))) (make-persistent 'make-persistent)
10:03	Chousuke	oops
10:03	Chousuke	hmm
10:03	Chousuke	,(do (defn make-persistent [sym] (assert (symbol? sym)) (def persistent-defs (into persistent-defs #{sym}))) (make-persistent 'make-persistent))
10:03	clojurebot	#'foo/persistent-defs
10:03	triddell	Anyone know why I'd get "java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: LazilyPersistentVector" in the above paste?
10:04	Chousuke	why is your vector wrapped in parentheses?
10:04	Chousuke	(doseq [value '(a b c)] ([:record value])) here, around [:record value]
10:06	triddell	ok, I can see how that isn't necessary
10:06	Chousuke	I don't think doseq is what you want, since it returns nil.
10:06	mibu	triddell: doseq is good for side-effects
10:06	Chousuke	you might want to use for
10:07	mibu	triddell: not for the functional style you're (rightly) using.
10:07	RSchulz	hiredman: Did you consider implicitly switching to a namespace equal to (or derived from to make valid) the poster's IRC nick?
10:07	triddell	ah, ok, that's the issue, I need the vectors returned to the outer function
10:07	Chousuke	or map: (map (fn [val] [:record val]) '(a b c))
10:09	mibu	or (map #(vector :record %) '(a b c))
10:10	mibu	map is so much fun.
10:11	triddell	Chousuke and mibu: this is a simplified version of what I really need to do, what I need to do is open a file for value in the seq, get a value, and then return the vector with the value... any suggestions for approaches based on that?
10:11	Chouser	,(for [x '(a b c)] [:record val]) ; or this
10:12	clojurebot	([:record #<core$val__3238 clojure.core$val__3238@152bdc7>] [:record #<core$val__3238 clojure.core$val__3238@152bdc7>] [:record #<core$val__3238 clojure.core$val__3238@152bdc7>])
10:12	Chouser	hm.
10:12	Chouser	oh
10:12	Chouser	,(for [x '(a b c)] [:record x]) ; or this
10:12	clojurebot	([:record a] [:record b] [:record c])
10:12	Chousuke	is for lazy?
10:12	mibu	triddell: the values are on separate lines?
10:12	Chouser	Chousuke: yes
10:13	Chousuke	triddell: you can use map or whatever with side-effects too; you'll just have to force the calculation with (doall)
10:14	mibu	triddell: I think chouser's version with for is more idiomatic than map. you should use the for version
10:14	Chousuke	I wonder how clojurebot handles infinite loops :/
10:15	triddell	actually I have to generate an xml/html block with about 3 elements (2 of them nested) for a variable amount of files
10:15	Chousuke	something like (defn foo [] (recur))
10:15	Chousuke	and then (foo)
10:16	Chouser	just (loop [] (recur)) should do it. poor clojurebot.
10:16	mibu	triddell: you can use line-seq for sequencing a file, if the values are on separate lines.
10:16	triddell	The files are in YAML format and I'm using jyaml
10:16	Chousuke	Chouser: I dare not try :P
10:16	Lau_of_DK	,(loop [] (recur))
10:17	Chouser	Lau_of_DK!
10:17	Lau_of_DK	Yes sir?
10:17	Lau_of_DK	That wont kill it
10:17	triddell	mibu: but I'm new to clojure too
10:17	Lau_of_DK	clojurebot: where are you ?
10:17	mibu	Lau_of_DK: thanks for satisfying our curiousity. ;-)
10:17	Chousuke	,(prn "It's alive!")
10:17	Chousuke	... it's not :)
10:17	Lau_of_DK	hmm..
10:17	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: seriously, what did you think would happen?
10:17	Lau_of_DK	I tried a few of those earlier today, and although the heap blew, it lived through it
10:18	Chouser	you've now pegged hiredman's server.
10:18	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: recur doesn't blow the heap
10:18	Lau_of_DK	I thought it would thread it, see that the thread was gone bad and kill it
10:18	Lau_of_DK	Oh thats true
10:18	Lau_of_DK	Guess I made an oppsie :(
10:18	Lau_of_DK	Appologies to all who loved the bot
10:19	Chousuke	well, obviously hiredman will want to protect against this somehow.
10:19	Chouser	yes.
10:19	mibu	triddell: does jyaml returns some sort of a collection?
10:19	Chousuke	I guess AWizzArd's proposition about running in a separate thread with a timeout should do.
10:19	Lau_of_DK	easy (if (not (= @name "Lau_of_DK") ...
10:19	AWizzArd	Yes
10:20	Lau_of_DK	btw shouldnt Clojure have a "!=" operator?
10:20	mibu	chousuke: he should simply write a function to check whether code terminates or not. :-)
10:20	Chousuke	mibu: yeah, simply.
10:20	Chouser	(doc not=)
10:20	duck1123	is that possible?
10:20	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: You dare taunt the bot ?
10:20	RSchulz	duck1123: No. That's the joke. It's the "Halting Problem."
10:20	mibu	duck1123: no.
10:21	Chouser	but starting a new Thread for each expression and killing it after a few seconds ought to work.
10:21	RSchulz	If this thing is going to run in the wild, here on IRC, then it's going to have to be made a lot more robust, naturally.
10:21	RSchulz	But it's a good start.
10:22	RSchulz	Chouser: You're our FP expert. Are there not some purely functional programs for which the Halting Problem is deciable?
10:22	RSchulz	"decidable."
10:22	duck1123	didn't think so... (require 'clojure.contrib.prescience)
10:22	RSchulz	By "some" I mean a categorical subset of arbitrary programs.
10:23	RSchulz	That's one of the thing ACL2 can do (for restricted or annotated Applicative Common Lisp programs, of course)
10:23	Chouser	I'm not an FP expert. I imagine some programs provably terminate.
10:23	Chouser	programs with no looping or recursion, for example.
10:23	mibu	RSchulz, Chouser: only a trivial uninteresting subset.
10:23	RSchulz	I'm not so sure that's really true.
10:24	RSchulz	Look into ACL2.
10:24	slangan	how do I raise a specific java-exception?
10:24	RSchulz	(throw (new SpecificJavaException ...))
10:24	slangan	what is the idiomtic wya to ahndle exceptions in clojure anyway? return nil if failing?
10:25	RSchulz	If you're going to catch an exception, it's because you know how to handle it, even if you end up re-throwing when you're done with that handling.
10:25	RSchulz	If you don't know what to do with an exception, don't catch it.
10:25	duck1123	triddell: how well has jyaml been working for you in clojure? Looks like it might be useful when I get around to porting from my ruby code.
10:25	mibu	I think exceptions are not idiomatic to clojure. they are just a java interop mechanism.
10:25	RSchulz	Clojure renders all exceptions the equivalent of Java's "unchecked" exceptions, so you never _have_ to catch an exception.
10:26	RSchulz	mibu: Exception handling is something all programs potentially have to do. They're part of software, not Java or C++, though different languages call them different things and support them in different ways, of course.
10:26	Chouser	there are some places in clojure where exceptions are specifically called for.
10:26	Chouser	validators, for example.
10:26	mibu	chouser: you consider FP and exceptions to be compatible?
10:27	RSchulz	I do. What would the conflict be?
10:27	slangan	what is the appropriate exception to throw for a dsl where the typre pssed doesnt match?
10:27	AWizzArd	mibu: why not?
10:27	AWizzArd	The only thing that is not very lispy is that there are no restarts.
10:27	slangan	like :of should be passd and soemthing else is passed instead
10:27	RSchulz	One way to think of them, at least some of them, is that they reflect the response to the application of a partial function to a value outside its domain.
10:28	AWizzArd	Exceptions know only one direction: up the stack. CL can go back if needed, and Exceptions are only a subset of its Condition System.
10:28	mibu	exceptions shutter the computation. I think they're essentially a side-effect. am I wrong?
10:28	RSchulz	No. They're not side-effects.
10:29	RSchulz	In fact, I'd say that if your language is dynamically typed, like Clojure, then you're going to make _more_ use of exceptions if you want a robust system.
10:29	RSchulz	What if Clojurebot didn't catch exceptions at its top loop? It would die the first time someone submitted something erroneous.
10:29	AWizzArd	mibu: if we want to take it seriously then we must find that it is impossible to do something in computers without sideeffects. All function calls consume time. This is not true for mathematics.
10:30	mibu	Awizzard: I'm also not for pure functional programming, but I do think the side effects should be kept to the front-end of computations and not for the core.
10:30	AWizzArd	yes, sounds fair
10:31	mibu	I see java in clojure as a gateway to the real world. you use it at the edges, and completely avoid it in the middle.
10:32	Chouser	I don't think it's necessary to stand off from Java that much
10:32	slangan	if i want: (if x (do-thise) else (do-a) (do-b)), how do i do that?
10:33	slangan	arent there just a way to branch ifs with several statements for each branch?
10:33	Chouser	There are good parts of java that can and should be used in the core of an app
10:33	mibu	slangan: use do
10:33	AWizzArd	like arrays
10:33	Chousuke	slangan: (if x (foo) (do (this) (and-that)))
10:33	Chousuke	slangan: or you can use cond
10:34	Chouser	mibu: a couple examples off the top of my head: BlockingQueues and String
10:34	duck1123	it's too bad that many of the java libraries just don't "feel right" in clojure. Working with them is easy, but they were designed with a completely different mindset
10:34	mibu	chouser: I'm not shunning java completely as a code base. but I do try to avoid it because it's not compatible with FP and the immutability notions of clojure.
10:34	AWizzArd	duck1123: yes
10:35	Chousuke	String is, though :)
10:35	Chouser	mibu: good enough.
10:35	Chouser	it's common to want to completely wrap all Java calls -- banish dots as much as possible -- but I don't think that's actually useful.
10:37	Chouser	for the parts of Java that are indeed thread-safe or immutable, with sufficiently convenient APIs, why not just use them? Less code, easier to understand, better.
10:37	RSchulz	slangan: Put your two (or more) else forms in a (do ...) form.
10:37	duck1123	does wrapping them cause much overhead?
10:38	RSchulz	Oops. I see you already got that answer.
10:38	RSchulz	duck1123: I would guess none at all. Why would there be?
10:38	RSchulz	(do ...) is a special form, so the compiler is handling it.
10:38	RSchulz	Another oops? You were referring to "wrapping" Java libraries for Clojure?
10:38	Chouser	duck1123: wrapping a java method call like (defn split [a b] (.split a b)) probably costs almost nothing at runtime.
10:39	duck1123	RSchulz: I was referring to wrapping a native java call in a clojure fn
10:39	Chouser	Hotspot will take care of you, I expect.
10:39	AWizzArd	although that would be a wrapper that still means doing java in clojure. Interesting would be useful wrappers.
10:39	RSchulz	(Right) I've been wondering about that. Most of the time reflection is involved, but I'm wondering if it has to happen for ever single call or if the JVM's super-fancy optimizations can eliminate it in many or most cases?
10:39	Chouser	But it's more code and mental overhead for everyone reading your code.
10:40	AWizzArd	For example for adding an event handler to a swing component. A clojurish way would be to do that without (proxy ...).
10:40	Chouser	RSchulz: the JVM will not remove reflection that Clojure puts in.
10:40	duck1123	I try not to create wrappers unless it makes it much nicer to use, but sometimes it's hard to resist that urge
10:41	RSchulz	Chouser: How sure are you? HotSpot can in-line polymorphic calls (even at the native machine code level) and the re-generalize them if new types appear on later calls.
10:41	mibu	duck1123: my rule is: if it doesn't add logic, don't do it.
10:41	Chouser	duck1123: that's an appropriate struggle. keep it up! :-)
10:42	RSchulz	But if the reflection at the point of calling Java methods is, for practical purposes, uneliminable, then we should be considering type tags wherever they're happening in critical loops.
10:43	mibu	I'm interested to know, what you guys use clojure for?
10:44	RSchulz	I'm working towards an "executive" for automating complex (and possibly concurrent) tasks in a theorem prover.
10:44	RSchulz	I also want to produce a shell-like environment for composing and scripting a growing set of logic tools.
10:46	RSchulz	Speaking (thinking) of which... Does anyone know what the state of Rich's new "streams" stuff is? I see the type system seems to be pretty well flushed out, but he hasn't said much about it.
10:46	RSchulz	.... _fleshed out_ !
10:47	Chouser	RSchulz: I'm pretty sure, but I'd be happy to be proved wrong.
10:47	RSchulz	Well, I wouldn't count on it, but I'd like to image the day when the JVM / HotSpot is so sophisticated it can do that sort of thing.
10:47	RSchulz	Definitely not holding my breath, though.
10:47	RSchulz	Which is why I wonder about when / where / how much to type-tag my method calls.
10:48	mibu	RSchulz: why type-tag your calls?
10:48	RSchulz	E.g., character-at-a-time I/O calls?
10:48	Chousuke	mibu: eliminates reflection
10:48	RSchulz	To avoid reflection when invoking them.
10:48	triddell	duck123: jyaml seems like it will work fine, I always liked yaml for the bit of Ruby I did so I used it for my config files
10:48	mibu	RSchulz: premature optimization is the root of all evil.
10:49	RSchulz	Yeah. I know that one. Which is why it's _a question_ of when / where / ...
10:49	Chousuke	after you're profiled it's a problem :)
10:50	triddell	duck1123: see above... got your nick wrong
10:50	mibu	RSchulz: only on inner loops, when you have absolutely determined that they are bottlenecks, which means rarely ever.
10:50	Chousuke	or if you know it's going to get called a million times with the same type.
10:50	RSchulz	Which is why I brought up the character-at-a-time example.
10:50	RSchulz	... character-at-a-time _I/O_ ...
10:51	duck1123	triddell: have you been using the new standalone compojure library, or are you using the older code?
10:51	duck1123	I was using the whole framework version, but I got sidetracked by trying to get it working in Tomcat
10:52	RSchulz	Am I the only one with a IRC client that auto-completes nicks (avoiding typos)?
10:52	duck1123	RSchulz: it's still possible with the members of this channel. (too many similar nicks)
10:53	triddell	duck1123: I actually just grabbed the html piece, which also needs a few other files. I'm only doing code generation with it right now for an eclipse plug-in I'm porting from Groovy code.
10:53	RSchulz	Yeah, but mostly only those Chous* guys. And the occasional _ suffix duplicate / variant bit.
10:57	slangan	im writing a DSL and I have some trouble with the repl. I want to read a line but neither read or read-line does the job very well.
10:57	slangan	i want to read in a line and get it as a slist(read-line returns a string).
10:58	slangan	and read stops at a space
10:58	RSchulz	slangan: Why don't you let the reader handle it? Which means, don't deal in lines and bytes, but in S-Expressions.
10:59	RSchulz	It imposes some constraints on your DSL (like enclosing outer-most parentheses, for one thing).
11:01	slangan	but one of the points f the DSL is allowing 2 + 3
11:01	slangan	how do i use the reader anyway?
11:01	gnuvince	Change the DSL not to allow that :)
11:01	RSchulz	Then you're going to need a parser.
11:02	slangan	yes
11:02	RSchulz	Is infix _really_ necessary for your end users?
11:03	slangan	so the parser should hand�e strings?
11:03	slangan	and yes infix is necessary
11:03	RSchulz	That's a choice you have. You could still use the Clojure reader if it's rules for interpreting character streams is consistent with your requirements.
11:03	RSchulz	If it's not, you'll have to work up from the character level.
11:04	RSchulz	I've heard tell of people working on parser combinator libraries, so you might want to ask on the list what's available as a starting point.
11:08	RSchulz	slangan: Of course, a convetional ANTLR or JavaCC parser could be used, too, given the relative easy of integrating Java libraries into Clojure programs.
11:20	slangan	ok thanks for the tips
11:20	slangan	how do I throw a syntax-error-exception? what is the name of that error?
11:20	RSchulz	(throw (new ExceptionName ...)) I'm not sure what specific exception you're thinking of, but they all work the same way with (throw ...) and (try ... (catch ...) (finally ...))
11:21	slangan	hmm I cant extend Clojur with new types, is that the expression problem?
11:21	Chousuke	what new types do you mean?
11:21	Chousuke	you can write java classes.
11:21	Chousuke	but in general that's only needed to interface with java libraries.
11:23	RSchulz	slangan: Keep in mind that Clojure's types are Java types.
11:23	RSchulz	You can extend them, should you find the need, though I'd expect that to be rare.
11:23	RSchulz	And you can use pre-existing Java types, though not all equally easily, I suppose (very generally speaking).
11:23	Chousuke	most "types" you can simply model using vectors or maps or something
11:23	RSchulz	What do you mean by "the expression problem?"
11:51	slangan	what is mod again?
11:51	slangan	(% 46 5)
11:51	cgrand	(rem 46 5)
11:53	Chousuke	clojurebot: awake yet?
11:53	Chousuke	:(
11:53	AWizzArd	still having fun in its for-ever loop
12:13	RSchulz	What timezone does hiredman live in?
12:13	triddell	Any ideas why when I try to compile a ns I get "No such file or directory seq_utils.clj... I am using duck_streams and I see this file is in contrib but that jar is on my classpath... does it need access to the clj files?
12:14	RSchulz	The contents of a JAR file in your classpath is like having all its individual file content directories on your classpath.
12:15	replaca	Q: Is the theory that the wikibook is going to move to the google code wiki? Or are there going to be two different things?
12:15	RSchulz	What (use ...) form or :use clause are you using (no pun).
12:15	triddell	(:use (clojure.contrib duck-streams))
12:16	RSchulz	Try (:use [clojure.contrib.duck-streams])
12:16	triddell	I'm really new to the gen-class.. just figuring it out... I am a Java guy though
12:17	RSchulz	Likewise, except I haven't ventured into gen-class territory, yet.
12:33	Lau_of_DK	What on earth happend to our Wiki ?
12:35	replaca	It lloks like queued changes might have finally been approved
12:35	replaca	*looks
12:35	Lau_of_DK	Everything worth reading has been removed
12:36	replaca	No, I think it's all there - it's just not all one page anymore
12:36	replaca	but maybe I have a different view because I'm "logged in"
12:37	slangan	how do I do if i need to return a ( but that givrs unclosed parameter...
12:37	slangan	i quoteed it and sitll the same problem
12:38	replaca	Lau_of_DK: does it look ok when you click through links?
12:39	Lau_of_DK	Yea all the info is there
12:39	Lau_of_DK	But I think its better to have it all on one page
12:39	replaca	cool
12:39	replaca	that only works for so long
12:39	replaca	and then that page goes crazy
12:40	replaca	hopefully clojure is going to generate more than one page of good stuff :-)
12:41	replaca	And there's going to be a new FAQ (rhickey was discussing in the google group) that will cover FAQ-y type stuff
12:41	replaca	so the wiki can be much more comprehensive
12:42	replaca	But I know there's a wiki at google code too, so I'm wondering if we're gooing to move the wiki there
12:43	Lau_of_DK	Probably not
12:43	replaca	OK
12:44	replaca	does someone "own" the approval process on this wiki
12:44	replaca	it seems to take a long time
12:44	replaca	?
12:45	replaca	I added some stuff about unit test frameworks the other day but it was on top of a whole bunch of unapproved edits
12:45	replaca	that eventually got approved
12:45	slangan	now i need to convert "(" to (...butusing ( ina function without closing it doesnt work.,..
12:50	Chousuke	hm
12:50	Chousuke	I modified clojurebot some but I can't test my changes as I don't have pircbot installed ;/
12:52	Chousuke	<3 gist
12:52	Chousuke	http://gist.github.com/37563
12:52	Chousuke	(the wrap-execution function)
12:52	Chousuke	hiredman: you may want to check that out too :)
12:53	Chousuke	I make no guarantee that it even works, as it was the simplest solution I could come up with based on the docs and as I said I haven't done any testing :P
12:56	hiredman	clojurebot: ping?
12:56	Chousuke	it's still running an infinite loop :)
12:59	hiredman	java is only at 50%
12:59	hiredman	which is nice
12:59	RSchulz	slangan: If you want to deal in characters, the notation for char literals is to precede them with a backslash.
13:00	RSchulz	hiredman: Do you have a dual-core, dual CPU or HT processor?
13:00	hiredman	nope
13:00	RSchulz	Then what's throttling it at 50%?
13:00	hiredman	spoke too soon, it spiked back up to 80%
13:00	RSchulz	I've noticed heavy GC causing lowered CPU utilization, though I've never understood why that should be so.
13:01	clojurebot	svn rev 1174; Copy or release 20081217
13:02	hiredman	clojurebot's jvm is running with a small stack and heap, so it needs that gc
13:02	walters	RSchulz: probably stop-the-world collections
13:02	hiredman	clojurebot: how much do you know?
13:02	clojurebot	I know 105 things
13:02	RSchulz	walters: But I don't see how that explains lower CPU utilization? Why doesn't the CPU shift from user threads to the GC thread at the same full-bore demand?
13:03	RSchulz	clojurebot: Do you know not to chase your own tail?
13:03	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
13:03	hiredman	,(println "No")
13:03	clojurebot	No
13:03	RSchulz	I think even Bender got caught in one of those loops, once...
13:03	walters	RSchulz: well it depends on how many active app threads you have...some GC phases could be single-threaded, a lot comes down to which collector you're using, what flags, etc.
13:04	RSchulz	Not that I'd try it, but does clojurebot protect itself from, say System/exit?
13:04	hiredman	clojurebot: sandbox?
13:04	clojurebot	sandbox is http://calumleslie.blogspot.com/2008/06/simple-jvm-sandboxing.html
13:04	RSchulz	walters: But what could be happening that causes periods during which the JVM makes _no_ demand on the CPU?
13:04	hiredman	,(System/exit)
13:04	clojurebot	:DENIED
13:04	walters	RSchulz: possibly parts of the heap got swapped out and it's blocking on disk IO?
13:05	RSchulz	So, hiredman, you're challenging us to find ways to harm Clojurebot??
13:05	RSchulz	walters: That's at least plausible, though I think when I've seen it there hasn't been any swapping / paging going on.
13:05	hiredman	RSchulz: no
13:05	RSchulz	Just checking...
13:06	Chousuke	,(throw Exception "hmm")
13:06	clojurebot	:DENIED
13:07	Chousuke	hiredman: this version isn't running my modifications yet, is it+
13:07	RSchulz	,(.. (new ProcessBuilder) (.command "sh" "-c" "ls -l") (.start))
13:07	clojurebot	:DENIED
13:07	RSchulz	Damn!
13:08	RSchulz	,(.. (Runtime/getRuntime) (.maxMemory))
13:08	clojurebot	:DENIED
13:09	RSchulz	Jeez. What _will_ it let us do??
13:09	Chousuke	infinite loops!
13:09	RSchulz	Yeah. We got that...
13:09	Chousuke	,(+ 1 1)
13:09	clojurebot	2
13:09	RSchulz	Woo-Hoo!
13:09	Chousuke	remember that it also supports defining functions
13:09	RSchulz	,(meaning 'Life)
13:09	clojurebot	:DENIED
13:09	RSchulz	,(find-question '(:answer 42))
13:09	clojurebot	:DENIED
13:09	Chousuke	meaning = undefined function = exception = :DENIED
13:10	RSchulz	That's rude.
13:10	hiredman	,(def status (ref {}))
13:10	clojurebot	#'foo/status
13:10	hiredman	,(dosync (commute status assoc "hiredman" "attempting the summit"))
13:10	clojurebot	{"hiredman" "attempting the summit"}
13:11	Chousuke	,(eval status)
13:11	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Ref@2016b0
13:11	Chousuke	oops
13:11	hiredman	deref
13:11	Chousuke	,(eval (deref status))
13:11	clojurebot	{"hiredman" "attempting the summit"}
13:11	Chousuke	hooray
13:11	hiredman	why the extra eval?
13:12	Chousuke	... I just edited the previous line :P
13:12	nagnals	hmm i need patternmatching. should impelment attermathicng ofr clojure?
13:13	RSchulz	hiredman: Did you get my idea about evaluating submissions from each IRC nick in a namespace derived from that nick?
13:13	hiredman	I saw it
13:14	triddell	ok, another question: I have now compiled my source clj file with the basic :gen-class symbol. My namespace is "solo.core" and I now have core__init.class and the rest of the support classes. What am I missing to be able to call one of my functions (statically hopefully) from Java?
13:15	triddell	I made a jar of all the class files...
13:26	triddell	ok, I got the core.class file now
13:31	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: I applogize for nuking your bot, I honestly did expect it to recover
13:40	Chousuke	hm
13:40	Chousuke	did some testing with my mods
13:40	Chousuke	not quite working, but close
13:48	cemerick	I've returned to looking at zip again. Am I right in thinking that, because make-node is the way it is, the current zipper impl doesn't lend itself to trees whose branches maintain aggregate data about their siblings?
13:49	cemerick	i.e. using a 'replace' primitive rather than make-node would enable you to return new parent nodes that contain updated aggregate information, rather than recalculating it each time a parent is created.
13:58	Chouser	cemerick: you're talking about a particular piece of data being copied in several places in the tree?
14:00	Chousuke	hooray
14:00	Chousuke	wait. wuh
14:01	cemerick	Chouser: No -- consider a tree structure whose leaves are vectors that contain integers (e.g. [1 6 28 3]), and the branches/parents are maps like {:children [...] :max XX}, where :children are the node's children, and :max is the maximum value that may be found among the descendant leaves.
14:02	RSchulz	cemerick: I think you could record the derived / aggregate data (max, e.g.) in node metadata which could be replaced on any given node rather than replacing the node (thereby creating a new tree)
14:02	Chousuke	okay, I managed to get my own clojurebot instance to return from an infinite loop but the thread still remains :>
14:03	cemerick	make-node would require a full traversal of the new children to determine the new :max at a given branch. Replacement semantics would allow you to only adjust the :max if a child being replaced had a value equal to the branch's current :max.
14:03	Chouser	cemerick: ok, I think I'm understand your question.
14:04	cemerick	RSchulz: but in a replacement operation (remove then add), I still need to perform a full traversal rooted at the modified branch in order to maintain that aggregate data, regardless of where it's stored.
14:04	RSchulz	Are you chaning the actual tree data, or just computing derived information _about_ that tree's contents?
14:04	cemerick	RSchulz: actually changing the tree's data
14:05	Chouser	cemerick: yes, it looks like you'd have to traverse to the node, replace, traverse back up.
14:05	cemerick	fwiw, this is in the area of "online" spatial indexing -- it's very important to be able to modify the tree, and then support reasonably fast queries over it (which rely upon various pieces of aggregate data at different levels of the tree)
14:05	RSchulz	I have situations like this processing logical formulas (which are tree-structured). I have traversers and transformers that embody the traversal logic. The transformers allow the distinguishing of the top-down phase from the bottom-up phase.
14:06	cemerick	Chouser: That's what I'm doing now -- I put together a little xpath-esque transformer for tree structures that gets the job done.
14:06	karmazilla	I have noticed *1 mentioned a couple of places, but what is it?
14:06	cemerick	I've got some breathing room now, so I thought I'd see if zip could help me out long-term. :-)
14:06	RSchulz	It's the value most recently evaluated at the REPL.
14:06	RSchulz	2 is the second-most-recent value; And there's a 3, too.
14:07	karmazilla	ok
14:07	cemerick	RSchulz: so you're doing a traversal on every operation as well?
14:07	Chouser	cemerick: they're immutable trees?
14:08	cemerick	Chouser: Yeah. Surely you're not suggesting I start set!-ing refs? ;-)
14:08	RSchulz	My point is that by distinguishing the top-down from the bottom-up, two kinds of algorithms are acommodated: Those that produce new sub-formulas during top-down traversal and those that produce them during the retreat from the bottom. (And those that do both)
14:08	RSchulz	cemerick: Surely you dont' have a Ref for every node in your tree, do you?
14:09	cemerick	RSchulz: no, no -- I thought that's what Chouser was asking about, though.
14:10	RSchulz	I should point out that my Formula classes are immutable, so I don't have a choice in how I implement transformers. They must produce new formulas, though they can share unaltered structure in the downward direction. (They're linked downward.)
14:12	cemerick	RSchulz: Yeah, all of my operations produce new trees as well. But if I were to implement them in terms of zip, I'd end up recalculating aggregates all over the place (since most of the aggregate data I maintain are min/max of some value(s) of a node's descendants).
14:13	RSchulz	I wonder if Huet was assuming some kind of "hash-consing" scheme to minimize duplication?
14:14	cemerick	Not sure, but I think an assumption of "dumb" nodes is made.
14:14	RSchulz	One thing I do use to my advantage in Java code is the IAI pattern: Immutable After Initialization. It allows me to incrementally build up a node in a formula tree, say, but not change it thereafter.
14:14	Chouser	cemerick: that's what I was asking. zip is my only experience with immutable trees -- I don't know how else to do it.
14:16	cemerick	Chouser: if how you descend through the tree is deterministic based on intermediate/aggregate values stored in branches, then it's a simple bubble-up of updates
14:18	RSchulz	Are these quadtrees or octtrees or something of the sort?
14:21	cemerick	RSchulz: I used to use quadtrees, yes. I use r-trees sometimes now, as well as a bidirectional interval trees (which I don't think are specified in the literature -- I hacked those together for use with highly regular spaces, where r-tree node splitting quickly becomes degenerate).
14:22	RSchulz	And you're using basic Clojure data structures to implement them?
14:22	RSchulz	Perhaps this is just an application where a mutable approach is called for?
14:24	cemerick	RSchulz: For now, yes, I'm just using struct-maps for the branches.
14:24	RSchulz	You mean for the nodes.
14:25	cemerick	Sure.
14:25	RSchulz	Each association within a map being an arc?
14:25	cemerick	Not sure why I would slip back to using anything mutable -- that's where these things came from :-)
14:25	RSchulz	"Exigent circumstnaces?"
14:26	cemerick	no, everything is rectilinear
14:26	RSchulz	By "arc" I mean Vertex (node) vs. Arc (link)
14:27	CardinalFang	I'm about to try using Clojure to write code for Android. I welcome advice and interjections.
14:27	cemerick	ah. No, these aren't graphs, they're trees.
14:28	RSchulz	Trees are graphs!
14:28	cemerick	a subset with specific characteristics, yes
14:29	RSchulz	Directed Acyclig Graphs in which each node (except one) has in-order equal to one and one node (the root) has in-order equal to 0.
14:29	RSchulz	So the terminology of vertex and arc are still applicable.
14:29	cemerick	forgive me, I'm not classically trained...
14:30	RSchulz	Yeah, and I'm a pedant. I can't help it...
14:31	RSchulz	Anyway, the immutable / mutable thing is pragmatic. If it works against you to use it, I'd say do something else, realizing the tradeoffs that ensue.
14:32	cemerick	Yeah. I had an r-tree impl in Java for years. It was a pretty painful API.
14:33	RSchulz	Specifically because of mutability?
14:33	RSchulz	I've been very happy with my decision to make my formula structures immutable.
14:34	cemerick	and because of Java itself. No easy predicates for specifying queries, filtering results by nonspatial characteristics, etc.
14:34	RSchulz	And if I were to be totally honest, I put in some mutability "back-doors," and ultimately got bitten by them more than once.
14:34	hiredman	clojurebot: ping?
14:34	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithsc�al?
14:34	hiredman	clojurebot: ping is <reply>PONG!
14:34	clojurebot	Ok.
14:34	RSchulz	clojurebot: ping-pong?
14:34	clojurebot	PONG!
14:34	cemerick	well, I also need things to be pure so I can easily backtrack to prior transformation states
14:35	RSchulz	But there are intermediate states during the transformation of generation N of the tree from generation N-1 that you fear will proliferate to undesirable magnitudes?
14:36	RSchulz	What scale are you operating at? How many nodes in these trees?
14:36	hiredman	,(dosync (commute status assoc "hiredman" "made the summit, awaiting rescue"))
14:36	clojurebot	{"hiredman" "made the summit, awaiting rescue"}
14:36	cemerick	no, not particularly -- why?
14:36	RSchulz	And you said "online," so I take it responsiveness is important?
14:36	cemerick	not many -- many thousands of data elements, so whatever that works out to in a mostly-balanced tree
14:37	RSchulz	So what aspect of using the Zipper concerns you?
14:37	cemerick	that the current impl requires the recalculation of aggregate data
14:38	RSchulz	Redundantly?
14:38	cemerick	it's not a problem, per se -- just that my requirements are orthogonal in one aspect to its impl.
14:38	RSchulz	Why would that be?
14:38	RSchulz	Could you not generate the new tree in one pass and then in another compute the aggregate data?
14:39	cemerick	well, that's the difference between an offline and online data structure -- in the former, you can bulk-load the tree, and maintaining aggregate data is unimportant since you've calculated it once and won't touch it again
14:40	cemerick	s/touch/modify
14:56	hiredman	ugh
14:56	hiredman	I think it maybe time to move clojurebot from gist to a proper github deal
15:11	danlarkin	hiredman: I'd like that
15:24	Chousuke	hiredman: I've been trying to get clojurebot working but it appears that it refuses to even connect to IRC if I enable the security manager.
15:24	Chousuke	hiredman: do you have a default permissions file for it?
15:25	hiredman	yes
15:25	Chousuke	I managed to make it interrupt runaway computations
15:26	hiredman	http://gist.github.com/37639
15:26	hiredman	Chousuke: yeah, very nice
15:26	hiredman	I saw your gist
15:26	Chousuke	that doesn't quite work though.
15:26	hiredman	yeah, I noticed :P
15:27	Chousuke	hiredman: but hm, isn't running it like that equivalent to not having a securitymanager at all? :P
15:27	hiredman	Chousuke: yes, but the sandbox creates a new security context
15:27	hiredman	or something
15:28	Chousuke	ah
15:28	Chousuke	hm
15:28	hiredman	ugh
15:28	hiredman	lame
15:31	Chousuke	hm, right
15:31	Chousuke	now it works, but
15:32	Chousuke	for some reason, ns is clojure.core
15:33	Chousuke	and it allows creating new threads :P
15:33	hiredman	yeah
15:33	hiredman	ns is thread locally bound
15:34	Chousuke	but isn't it inherited?
15:34	hiredman	dunno
15:34	hiredman	I am seeing the this right now with out
15:34	hiredman	my deal runs, but it prints out to system.out instead of the stringwriter
15:36	Chousuke	hm
15:36	hiredman	(binding [ns 'foo] (.start (Thread. #(println ns))))
15:36	hiredman	^- clojure.core
15:36	hiredman	weird, and lame
15:37	Chousuke	wonder if there's a way to prevent spawning threads
15:37	Chouser	of course a new Thread will see the root binding.
15:37	Chouser	binding only works within a given thread
15:37	hiredman	Chouser: I sort of figured that out :P
15:37	Chouser	yeah. :-)
15:38	Chousuke	can't have a clojure evaluator if it's able to spawn threads ;(
15:38	hiredman	Chousuke: shrug
15:38	Chouser	why's that? applets can spawn threads.
15:39	Chousuke	well, they'd have access to the clojure.core namespace of the bot
15:40	hiredman	Chousuke: you have access anyway
15:40	Chousuke	even if hmm
15:40	Chousuke	oops
15:40	hiredman	,(do (in-ns 'clojure.core) (naughty stuff))
15:40	clojurebot	:DENIED
15:40	hiredman	,(do (in-ns 'clojure.core) (println ns))
15:40	clojurebot	#<Namespace clojure.core>
15:40	Chousuke	well I guess the evaluated code has to be wrapped in a threadgroup as well
15:41	Chousuke	so that all spawned threads can be killed.
15:41	hiredman	this is getting very complex
15:45	Chousuke	http://gist.github.com/37563 I refactored this so many times it probably doesn't make much sense anymore, but here goes.
15:46	hiredman	Chousuke: the wrap-exceptions deal is useful
15:46	hiredman	I should have written something like it at the outset
15:47	Chousuke	the wrap-execution stuff runs the thing in a separate thread so that it can be killed
15:48	hiredman	will need to move the ns and out binding stuff into that thread
15:48	Chousuke	yeah
15:49	mehrheit	anybody know why inner classes are only accessible by package-qualified names? (even if the parent class is imported)
15:49	hiredman	mehrheit: you can import the inner classes
15:49	mehrheit	oh, yeah. I forgot
15:50	mehrheit	thank you
16:00	karmazilla	I recently had a need for some "case" expression and came up with this: http://gist.github.com/37651 - I wonder if it can be written in a more elegant way
16:00	kotarak	karmazilla: clojure.contrib.fcase
16:03	kotarak	karmazilla: also using 'val is bad, bad, bad. This can lead to clashes with the user code in the expansion use `(let [val# ...] ..). This generates automatically a symbol, which cannot be in the user code.
16:11	lisppaste8	kotarak pasted "karmazilla: modified case" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72363
16:12	kotarak	karmazilla: this should be save against variable capture, but clojure.contrib.fcase is of course more robust and flexible and...
16:16	karmazilla	ah yes, I knew that there was something or other looking like "~@" but I could not find it on the website
16:24	kotarak	karmazilla: just think Scheme: , => ~ and ,@ => ~@
16:27	karmazilla	I don't know Scheme so that doesn't help
16:28	kotarak	ah. ok. never mind.
16:33	hiredman	,(loop [] (recur))
16:33	clojurebot	Execution timed out
16:33	hiredman	clojurebot: botsnack
16:33	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
16:34	mehrheit	,1;?
16:34	hiredman	,(println "hello")
16:35	clojurebot	hello
16:35	mehrheit	,(prn 1)
16:35	clojurebot	1
16:35	mehrheit	,(dotimes x 2 (prn x))
16:36	Chousuke	hiredman: did you merge my changes to your gist repo properly or just by copy&paste? :)
16:36	hiredman	Chousuke: copy and paste
16:36	Chousuke	too bad, means I can't merge your changes back into mine.
16:37	hiredman	uh, well, I am not using git "internally"
16:37	hiredman	the sandboxing stuff deserves its own lib
16:37	RSchulz	hiredman: You know, now that clojurebot does Clojure code, it's probably going to need to be fed a lot more.
16:38	hiredman	mehrheit: dotimes takes a [] for binding now
16:38	Chousuke	(just in case you'll ever need something like it: in your git clone dir: git remote add chousuke git://gist.github.com/37563.git; git fetch chousuke; git merge chousuke; git push # (to push to github))
16:38	RSchulz	Did you do the sandboxing in Clojure or in Java?
16:39	hiredman	jvm and clojure
16:41	hiredman	fatal: 'chousuke' does not point to a commit
16:44	mehrheit	,(dotimes [x 2] (prn x))
16:44	clojurebot	0 1
16:45	Chouser	,(doseq [i (.split "I am a bot" " ")] (println i) (Thread/sleep 3000))
16:46	clojurebot	Execution timed out
16:46	Chouser	,(doseq [i (.split "I am a bot" " ")] (println i) (Thread/sleep 500))
16:46	clojurebot	I am a bot
16:47	drewr	,(System/exit 0)
16:47	Chouser	clojurebot: hi!
16:47	clojurebot	Huh?
16:47	drewr	,(System/getProperty "user.dir")
16:47	Chouser	,(class out)
16:47	clojurebot	class java.io.StringWriter
16:48	mehrheit	,(prn ns)
16:48	clojurebot	#<Namespace foo>
16:48	hiredman	,(System/getProperty "user.dir")
16:48	hiredman	man, I hope I did not just break it
16:49	drewr	,foo
16:49	hiredman	drewr: needs a paren
16:49	drewr	Ah.
16:49	danlarkin	,(slurp "/etc/group")
16:49	hiredman	no io
16:49	danlarkin	clojurebot: rude!
16:49	clojurebot	I don't understand.
16:50	karmazilla	,(loop [] (recur))
16:50	hiredman	dunno why it is swallowing exceptions again
16:50	drewr	Heh.
16:50	clojurebot	Execution timed out
16:50	drewr	Does it fire each one in a thread?
16:50	Chousuke	yeah
16:50	karmazilla	may I try to break that threading?
16:50	Chousuke	and then it waits for it to finish, so no concurrent stuff :P
16:51	Chousuke	there's still a problem with it.
16:51	hiredman	many problems
16:51	Chousuke	you can spawn your own threads that will not get killed.
16:52	hiredman	Chousuke: sshhh
16:52	Chousuke	though that'll just require wrapping the thing in a threadgroup so that all its chidren threads can be killed as well :P
16:52	hiredman	loose lips sink ships
16:52	karmazilla	,((fn john_mcclane [] (try (loop [] (recur)) (catch Throwable _ (apply john_mcclane)))))
16:52	clojurebot	Execution timed out
16:52	hiredman	when you ride alone you ride with hitler
16:52	mehrheit	, (prn 1)
16:53	mehrheit	,(println ",(println 1)")
16:53	Chousuke	hm.
16:53	hiredman	uh
16:54	Chouser	,(prn :still-here)
16:54	hiredman	locked
16:54	karmazilla	kill -QUIT?
16:54	Chouser	this is probably a very good way to clean up a sandboxing implementation.
16:55	Chousuke	maybe we should make a #clojurebot-playground channel
16:57	AWizzArd	hiredman: on what level does this io blocking happen? On the byte code level?
17:00	karmazilla	I think john_mcclane caught your Thread.stop call :)
17:01	hiredman	java has 0 load
17:01	hiredman	AWizzArd: however the jvm does it
17:01	hiredman	but the repl is locked
17:04	hiredman	anyway
17:04	hiredman	I have stuff to do, so if you break clojurebot, I will not be here to restart him
17:07	karmazilla	also, since a new thread is started for every input line, then it shouldn't matter much that one thread was hijacked :/
17:08	karmazilla	that is, if it was
17:10	Chousuke	hm
17:16	Chousuke	it seems clojurebot's code evaluation is completely broken at the moment. I did some tests in query and all it gives me are exceptions :/
17:16	Chousuke	oh well
17:31	rfgpfeiffer	()
17:32	hiredman	whoopd
17:32	hiredman	fixed
17:33	hiredman	looks like some one shook up a snow globe outside
17:34	drewr	hiredman: Where are you?
17:35	lisppaste8	mmcgrana pasted "get source file and line" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72369
17:35	mmcgrana	can anyone figure out a simpler way to do this?
17:35	hiredman	drewr: seattle
17:36	drewr	We had our share last week in TN.
17:36	hiredman	,(loop [] (recur))
17:36	clojurebot	Execution timed out
17:37	mmcgrana	can the clojurebot run code now?
17:37	drewr	mmcgrana: Yup! It even writes code for you. Just tell it your problem.
17:37	Chousuke	hiredman: there should be some way to prevent people from redefining the sandboxing function :P
17:38	mmcgrana	cool
17:39	danlarkin	clojurebot: I need to go grocery shopping. Please give me code for that
17:39	clojurebot	Huh?
17:39	mmcgrana	lol. btw is there some place that all of clojurebot's functionality is documented? is his implementation open source?
17:39	drewr	clojurebot: I need a statistical model for a linear regression whatsamadozit.
17:39	clojurebot	Pardon?
17:39	drewr	See, it even recognizes bs.
17:39	Chouser	mmcgrana: ha! clever.
17:40	danlarkin	clojurebot: where are you?
17:40	clojurebot	http://gist.github.com/27733
17:40	danlarkin	mmcgrana: ^
17:41	Kerris7	clojurebot: what is your relationship with lispbot?
17:41	clojurebot	Huh?
17:41	Kerris7	clojurebot: don't deny it, we have evidence!
17:41	clojurebot	Titim gan �ir� ort.
17:41	Kerris7	wha?
17:41	mmcgrana	danlarkin: thanks
17:41	RSchulz	hiredman: What's the time limit? 10 seconds?
17:44	Chousuke	yeah
17:44	Chouser	mmcgrana: the top-level 'let' isn't doing anything for you.
17:45	Chouser	well, nothing that 'do' wouldn't do.
17:46	hiredman	,((fn john_mcclane [] (try (loop [] (recur)) (catch Throwable _ (apply john_mcclane)))))
17:46	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithsc�al?
17:46	hiredman	:)
17:47	hiredman	doesn't accept stuff with catch in it
17:47	karmazilla	no more action movie heroes, then
17:48	mmcgrana	hmm is there a function like multiget on maps? (mget {:foo :1 :bar 2} [:foo :bar]) => (1 2)
17:51	hiredman	karmazilla: cute
17:52	Chouser	mmcgrana: map
17:52	mmcgrana	o good call
17:53	Chouser	(doc ns-unmap)
17:53	clojurebot	Removes the mappings for the symbol from the namespace.; arglists ([ns sym])
17:53	RSchulz	Shouldn't it filter?
17:53	lisppaste8	mmcgrana annotated #72369 with "more concise" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72369#1
17:53	Chouser	,(doc ns-unmap)
17:53	clojurebot	------------------------- clojure.core/ns-unmap ([ns sym]) Removes the mappings for the symbol from the namespace.
17:53	Chouser	hehe
17:55	lisppaste8	Chouser annotated #72369 with "with more reader macros" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72369#2
17:56	mmcgrana	but am i right to think that one can't do this file-line business without using a (def in there?
17:56	mmcgrana	Chouser: nice
17:56	Chouser	mmcgrana: there is file which doesn't seem to work for repl-ln, but does work in read files.
17:57	Chouser	But there's no equivalent line -- there is a Var with the value you want (it's what 'def' uses), but it's not available to Clojure code.
17:58	mmcgrana	ok
17:58	Chouser	oh!
17:58	Chouser	(var-get clojure.lang.Compiler/LINE)
17:59	Chouser	there it is, it just isn't in any namespace.
17:59	clojurebot	svn rev 1175; make sure find returns entry with original key
18:00	mmcgrana	also SOURCE, which is a little confusing because it doesn't correspond to file
18:00	mmcgrana	the name i mean
18:00	karmazilla	hiredman: do you also prevent ((fn john_mcclane [] (try (loop [] (recur)) (finally (apply john_mcclane))))) ?
18:01	lisppaste8	mmcgrana annotated #72369 with "with help from Compiler" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72369#3
18:01	Chouser	rhickey: arg, I had that except for the RT change.
18:02	Chouser	Which only became a problem when Clojure maps became java.util.Maps.
18:02	rhickey	Chouser: right, that was my first thought
18:02	rhickey	but as you saw there were a couple of fabricated entries
18:03	rhickey	thanks for looking into it
18:03	Chouser	yeah, I found those, but was stumped as to why that didn't fix the problem.
18:03	rhickey	So, how do I get that into the branch of the release I made?
18:05	Chouser	I'm afraid this is where svn is going to start hurting you.
18:05	RSchulz	rhickey: Which version of IDEA are you using?
18:05	rhickey	It all looks promising - there are menu options for integrate into branch
18:05	rhickey	RSchulz: 8.0
18:05	rhickey	looks like it wants me to have a working copy of the branch?
18:05	RSchulz	Me, too. But I do my version control from the command line.
18:06	rhickey	8.0.1
18:06	RSchulz	Right. 8.0.1. I made the mistake of trying the first EAP of 8.1. Messy.
18:07	Chouser	can't help now, but I'd recommend keeping careful notes of which versions you merge in which direction.
18:07	Chouser	My understanding is that you may need this information in later merges.
18:08	mmcgrana	o man svn merges
18:08	rhickey	Chouser: my idea was: cut a release, create a branch of it, continue working on trunk, move bugfixes into branch, never go the other way
18:08	rhickey	no real merging
18:19	clojurebot	svn rev 1176; make sure find returns entry with original key
18:19	hiredman	clojurebot: uh?
18:19	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
18:20	rhickey	seemed to work ok
18:21	rhickey	might be trickier when I want to move fixes but not features
18:35	lisppaste8	drewr pasted "macro & namespace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72375
18:36	drewr	Why does "in" in the binding form get namespaced?
18:37	Chousuke	it needs a ~
18:37	drewr	When I do that, line can't be used in the expansion.
18:38	drewr	It becomes foo.bar/line too.
18:38	Chousuke	you need to force name capture
18:38	Chousuke	with ~'line
18:38	Chousuke	make sure to document the implicit binding as well.
18:39	drewr	Do I do that in the when test?
18:39	Chousuke	both instances of line
18:39	kotarak	Better: let the user provide a name for the variable.
18:39	kotarak	Avoids the capture.
18:39	drewr	kotarak: OK, that's a good idea.
18:40	RSchulz	Or use line#, since why would the invoker care what a local name is?
18:40	Chousuke	yeah, something like (defmacro with-each-line [[name-to-bind source] & body] ...)
18:40	Chousuke	RSchulz: the idea is to give the user access to each line in the body
18:40	RSchulz	Oh, I see. Evaluating the body.
18:41	Chousuke	though that looks like something you could just use line-seq for :)
18:43	drewr	Chousuke: Hm, possible. The input stream is from a socket in this case though.
18:43	Chousuke	(doseq [line (line-seq (BufferedReader. (FileReader. "foo.txt")))] whatever)
18:43	RSchulz	Whether it souces a socket or a file or an internal stream really doesn't matter.
18:43	RSchulz	At least Java does _that_ for you.
18:43	Chousuke	drewr: line-seq just wants a BufferedReader :)
18:43	drewr	RSchulz: Shouldn't matter. :-)
18:43	RSchulz	Can you think of a case when it would?
18:44	Chousuke	though hm
18:44	Chousuke	does line-seq close the file when it's done?
18:44	RSchulz	Hopefully not.
18:44	RSchulz	That would be presumptuous.
18:44	drewr	Chousuke: No, just creates a lazy-cons.
18:45	RSchulz	Some Streams / Readers / Writers are seekable.
18:45	Chousuke	in that case you might want to use (with-open) too :)
18:47	drewr	RSchulz: You raise a good point. I would definitely prefer line-seq.
18:47	drewr	Much more functional and less Java-y.
18:47	RSchulz	Which point?
18:48	drewr	That the reader shouldn't matter if it's network-dependent.
18:48	RSchulz	As long as you don't assume that once you've managed to open a stream (etc.) that you won't get errors, you'll be OK.
18:49	RSchulz	Even local files can present errors during I/O.
18:49	RSchulz	But they're distinctly more likely when reading from a network endpoint, of course.
18:49	drewr	My concern was related to the fact that I won't get things any particular order like in a file.
18:50	drewr	But I think I would still be OK in this case because I'm just responding to what comes across, which can be in any order anyway.
18:50	RSchulz	Well, ordering is independent, and if you're using TCP, then guaranteed by the underlying protocol.
18:51	drewr	Yep, TCP.
18:51	RSchulz	And if you don't trust that, then you'll need your own application-level protocol with redunancy of some sort to detect when the stream has become corrupted.
18:52	RSchulz	If you're consuming multiple inbound networks streams, then of course ordering will be unpredictable and you'll have to account for that.
18:52	drewr	Single input stream; just one socket.
18:55	RSchulz	What is the granularity of the items you process? Bytes? Characters? Forms? Native (int / long / etc.)??
18:58	drewr	Text-based protocol with \r\n line termination.
18:58	drewr	crlf, rather
18:58	RSchulz	Then using a line-oriented reader seems appropriate.
19:01	drewr	OK, (doseq [line (line-seq in)] ...) it is. :-)
19:56	Chousuke	hm
19:57	RSchulz	hm? His Majesty?
20:03	Chousuke	RSchulz: I just patched my local version of clojure with a with-open that supports multiple bindings.
20:03	Chousuke	just wondering whether it'd make sense to close the opened streams in reverse order.
20:06	RSchulz	I thought with-open already did support multiple bindings... Nonetheless...
20:06	Chousuke	RSchulz: no, it doesn't.
20:06	RSchulz	I don't think it really matters the order in which they're closed.
20:06	Chousuke	it silently only closes the first binding
20:06	RSchulz	That's not cool!
20:07	Chousuke	too bad I don't have a CA :/
20:07	RSchulz	Under the (I think reasonable) assumption that each output stream targets a different ultimate destination, the implicit flush upon close _could_ be signicicant...
20:08	RSchulz	But I'm not sure that is something that is more correct one way than the other.
20:08	RSchulz	Is there an issue with submitting a CA from outside the U.S.?
20:09	Chousuke	I don't know :/
20:09	RSchulz	Gack. What I said was nonsense. If each stream is independent, order doesn't matter. If two or more target the same output stream, then the implicit flush would matter, but I don't think that's something that factors into the definition of the with-open macro.
20:09	RSchulz	Just state the order and leave it at that.
20:09	RSchulz	With-open is in the core?
20:10	RSchulz	If the CA is an issue, you could just report the problem to Rich and let him fix it.
20:10	hiredman	clojurebot: rhickey?
20:10	clojurebot	he works hard so you don't have to
20:10	RSchulz	clojurebot: hiredman?
20:10	clojurebot	hiredman is an evil genius.
20:10	RSchulz	I _KNEW_ it!
20:11	hiredman	karmazilla was mucking with clojure.asm through clojurebot
20:13	RSchulz	Sounds kind of like performing neurosurgery.
20:13	Chousuke	I suppose I can't just release a patch to the public domain either :P
20:13	RSchulz	Curious notion... Would the quoting of the original content to be changed considered fair use?
20:14	RSchulz	Still, you could just post it to the list and let the chips fall where they may. I assume the change is straightforward and not voluminous?
20:15	Chousuke	pretty much
20:15	RSchulz	Much ado about nothing (or little)??
20:15	RSchulz	Not to denigrate your contribution.
20:15	RSchulz	Why don't you just send off a signed CA?
20:15	Chousuke	I should, I suppose.
20:15	RSchulz	I hear they have air mail for the trans-Atlantic route now!
20:16	Chousuke	unfortunately I don't have time to do so until sometime in January :P
20:16	RSchulz	When I was an SWL kid, I had to send IRC (that's International Reply Coupons) to get air-mail replies!
20:16	RSchulz	How long does it take to print a PDF, sign it and put it in the mail??
20:17	Chousuke	well, I don't own a printer.
20:17	RSchulz	Surely there's _something_ available to you? Some equivalent to Kinkos (copy shop that has computers for printing and such)?
20:17	Chousuke	and I'll be busy tomorrow leaving this place to spend christmas vacation with family :P
20:18	RSchulz	Well, at a minimum, you could post the issue / request for change to the list.
20:18	Chousuke	yeah
20:18	RSchulz	Where do you travel for your christmas vacation?
20:18	RSchulz	You live in Finland, right?
20:19	Chousuke	yeah.
20:20	RSchulz	Short daylinght hours these days, huh?
20:20	RSchulz	I hate the cold!
20:20	RSchulz	I left Wisconsin 'cuase of the awful winters.
20:35	Chousuke	hmmhmm
20:36	Chousuke	I can probably get a CA sent tomorrow if I'm quick. in the meantime, there's an issue on the google code tracker now.
20:36	Chousuke	and it's way past my bedtime :)
20:41	lgas	Hi all. I'm new to Clojure and relatively new to lisp in general. I have a seq of items and I want to process them in groups of three... I'm sure there's an easy way to do this but it has me stumped. What functions should I be looking at?
20:44	lgas	Nevermind... I just found partition.
20:44	lgas	:)
20:48	hiredman	(doc partition)
20:48	clojurebot	Returns a lazy sequence of lists of n items each, at offsets step apart. If step is not supplied, defaults to n, i.e. the partitions do not overlap.; arglists ([n coll] [n step coll])
21:21	francois__	Hey all!
21:21	francois__	Just wondering if my style is correct: http://gist.github.com/37764
21:21	francois__	I want to extract the unique words of a string of text
21:21	francois__	The string will be Twitter status update messages
21:24	dhaya	francois__: how about this? (distinct (re-seq #"\w+" "hello world world"))
21:25	francois__	dhaya: Hmm, yes, that would be much simpler, yes
21:25	francois__	Besides, it would probably work better than what I'm getting at the moment: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
21:25	francois__	This message is very cryptic
21:25	francois__	No stack trace, nothing
21:25	francois__	I don't even know what's wrong
21:28	francois__	dhaya: The regexp trick works just fine
21:29	francois__	I had to modify the regexp slightly #"[#@\w]+" so it caught everything I needed, but this is perfect
21:29	francois__	Thank you
21:40	Chouser	francois__: for a stack trace: (.printStackTrace *e)
21:41	francois__	Ah, but I'm at the REPL, so there's not much of a stack trace anyway :(
21:43	dhaya	francois__: I have never used read, it seems its typically used for reading in and emitting clojure data structures. For instance, all your "words" are emitted as clojure.lang.Symbol objects.
21:43	francois__	Yes, that's what I wanted initially
21:43	francois__	Using strings will achieve the same effect in the end for me
21:47	Chouser	francois__: for what it's worth, removing the parens around (word) got your original working.
21:47	francois__	Oh wow...
21:47	francois__	So, Clojure was trying to evaluate the symbol, and failing
21:48	francois__	I thought if required parens around the condition
21:48	francois__	But I remember now: symbols evaluate to themselves
21:48	francois__	If I put parens, that's a function call
21:48	Chouser	hm, well ... in this case, I don't think it's the "symbols evaluate to themselves" rule that's in play
21:49	francois__	I really want to know if it's nil or not
21:49	francois__	Since nil is false, I just wanted to use that
21:49	Chouser	'word' is evaluating to the value of the local named 'word'
21:49	francois__	Which is a symbol, such as I
21:50	francois__	as in (def status "I read a book")
21:50	francois__	(I) would fail
21:50	francois__	(I) from the REPL returns: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: I in this context
21:51	Chouser	it's more like (let [word 'my] (word))
21:51	dhaya	francois__: Symbols are functions of map, so that (word) is expecting an map argument to be passed. In fact, thats the stack trace I get if i try yours. "Wrong number of args passed to symbol."
21:52	francois__	Were you at the REPL?
21:53	dhaya	francois__: yes
21:53	francois__	And which revision of Clojure?
21:53	francois__	I'm using r1149
21:57	dhaya	r1160. I am using emacs repl with slime and swank.
21:58	francois__	Hmmm, compiling 1160 fails for me with deeply nested exceptions
21:58	dhaya	did you try ant clean?
21:59	francois__	Ah, had to clean before
21:59	francois__	I still get a PersistentList error: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList
22:00	francois__	rHEAD has the same error (1162
22:02	dhaya	francois__: I doubt if the difference is because of clojure versions. AFAIK, nothing much changed with exception reporting in the last few days.
22:02	francois__	I didn't expect that too
22:03	francois__	I'm straight at the command line on Mac, using Java 1.5.0_16
22:03	Chouser	francois__: you get that exception while 'ant' is running?
22:04	francois__	Chouser: The PersistentList error? No, at the REPL, right after executing the (distinct (loop [] ...))
22:04	Chouser	oh
22:04	francois__	Here's a paste of the session: http://gist.github.com/37856
22:05	francois__	clj is a script that sets the classpath to clojure + clojure.contrib and jline
22:06	Chouser	francois__: run (.printStackTrace *e) after that and paste it too?
22:06	Chouser	oh, you're giving it different input
22:06	Chouser	it's still trying to evaluate whatever object 'read' is returning first
22:07	francois__	Possibly, yes
22:07	francois__	The first word ends up being a deref
22:07	francois__	http://gist.github.com/37856
22:07	francois__	I updated again, this time with the real content
22:09	Chouser	the @foo is expanded by the reader to a list (clojure.core/deref foo)
22:10	francois__	Correct, and (word) ends up evaluating that list, right?
22:10	Chouser	then it tries to evaluate that list as a function
22:10	Chouser	right
22:10	francois__	Yeah, problem solved!
22:10	francois__	Not a problem in fact :)
22:10	francois__	Thank you for the help
22:10	francois__	I very much appreciate
22:10	francois__	I'm very new at Clojure in general, although I have years of imperative programming experience behind me
22:12	Chouser	great! how are you liking it?
22:12	francois__	I like it very much
22:12	francois__	It's interesting
22:12	francois__	I needed to find something to challenge myself
22:12	francois__	I did try Common Lisp a while ago
22:12	Chouser	wrong kind of challenge?
22:12	francois__	I knew how to read basic lists, but didn't devote enough time
22:12	triddell	quick thoughts from anyone? I need to build a sorted-map of sorted-sets while processing a set (seq) of files... doing this functionally with immutable data structures is daunting.... any tips?
22:12	francois__	Had to get back to paying work :)
22:13	triddell	basically, look if the key exists, if so add an entry to the set (value), otherwise add a new key and create a new set
22:14	francois__	triddell: loop/recur ? Isn't that the solution?
22:14	triddell	haven't used that yet... I'll check that out... thx
22:15	Chouser	loop/recur is almost always sufficient, but it's close to the biggest hammer
22:15	Chouser	often 'reduce' or 'into' works well for building maps and sets
22:16	dhaya	triddell: I have also found update-in, assoc-in to be helpful when working with nested structures.
22:16	triddell	I read about that on the group, where you and Rich gave examples, but it didn't seem sufficient in this case
22:17	triddell	dhaya: ok, yes, I was looking at assoc but need to deal with the immutability
22:19	Chouser	triddell: (reduce (fn [smap file] (if (smap file) (assoc (smap file) ...) (assoc smap ... (sorted-set)) (sorted-map) fileseq)
22:19	Chouser	or something
22:21	triddell	Chouser: thanks! I'll study that approach