#clojure – 2008-12-15

2008-12-15

01:21	Fennec	ello
01:21	Fennec	i'm looking for a little getting-started/java-interop assistance
02:03	zakwilson	Fennec: What do you need to know?
02:04	Fennec	I've found+hacked up something to instantiate a few basic Swing components. right now I'm trying to figure out how to override the paint(Graphics g) method of a JPanel.
02:04	Fennec	looks like 'proxy' has something to do with it likely
02:05	zakwilson	proxy is for subclassing or implementing interfaces.
02:06	zakwilson	So yes, you should be able to do that with proxy.
02:06	Fennec	graphicFrame (proxy [JPanel] [] (paint [g] (code goes here ...
02:07	zakwilson	Right
02:07	zakwilson	I think
02:20	zakwilson	Fennec: Did proxy do what you expected?
02:20	Fennec	I think so (I think)
02:21	Fennec	ah, there's the problem. i was chasing down a ) when the problem was a missing ]. :P
02:23	huangjs	Is clojure suitable for numerical computing programs? is it possible to use unbox arrays, inlining functions and avoid runtime dispatching?
02:24	Fennec	okay, now I have an issue. :) http://pastebin.ca/1285744 -- Exception in thread "AWT-EventQueue-0" java.lang.ClassCastException: sun.java2d.SunGraphics2D cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn.
02:24	hiredman	it is possible to use unboxed arrays
02:25	zakwilson	I don't know if it's possible to unbox arrays. You can use Java arrays. You can inline functions with definline. You can avoid runtime reflection using type hints as metadata on function args.
02:25	hiredman	(doc make-array)
02:25	clojurebot	Creates and returns an array of instances of the specified class of the specified dimension(s). Note that a class object is required. Class objects can be obtained by using their imported or fully-qualified name. Class objects for the primitive types can be obtained using, e.g., Integer/TYPE.; arglists ([type len] [type dim & more-dims])
02:25	hiredman	definline you say, hmmmm
02:26	huangjs	i see. thanks.
02:26	huangjs	is there any available benchmark result?
02:26	zakwilson	Fennec: The formatting of your code goes against generally accepted style rules for Lisp - specifically, the closing parens should be on the same line.
02:27	Fennec	noted
02:27	Fennec	some time soon I shall get a decent editor that'll fix it for me :)
02:27	zakwilson	And there's some strange indentation there.
02:27	Fennec	oh, it's a complete mess, I agree :)
02:28	zakwilson	As a rule, Lispers use Emacs. This is a bit of a problem because it means learning a new editor and language at the same time for a lot of people. I'm not sure what the other options are for Clojure.
02:28	Fennec	..... normally I'd use some emacs mode but I'm temporarily separated from my normal Linux SSH environment (vacationing, which is also why I get to look into this :)
02:28	Fennec	the problem with Emacs is that I use emacs at work.
02:28	Fennec	.... we have a lot of customizations at work.
02:28	Fennec	..... I'm used to F4 being magic and taking me to wherever something is defined.
02:29	hiredman	clojurebot: emacs?
02:29	clojurebot	emacs is hard, lets go shopping!
02:29	Fennec	also, shift-F5 should take me to the .t file for my current .pl script. :P
02:30	Fennec	in the meantime, I've got this casting issue. :\|
02:31	zakwilson	You should keep a copy of your .emacs file, but you're still probably better off with vanilla emacs for Clojure than just about anything else.
02:32	hiredman	Fennec: casting?
02:32	Fennec	Exception in thread "AWT-EventQueue-0" java.lang.ClassCastException: sun.java2d.SunGraphics2D cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn.
02:32	Fennec	http://pastebin.ca/1285744
02:33	hiredman	are you using the latest svn?
02:33	Fennec	probably-not.
02:34	Fennec	I'm using the lastest download-link thingy.
02:34	hiredman	hmmm
02:34	Fennec	as I've not bothered setting up svn on Windoze.
02:34	Fennec	september 16 release? yeah, trifle old :\|
02:34	zakwilson	You can download the latest svn version from the project site.
02:34	hiredman	(BufferedImage/TYPE_BYTE_GRAY) <-- this could be a problem
02:34	zakwilson	clojurebot: svn
02:34	clojurebot	svn is https://clojure.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/clojure/
02:35	hiredman	I would remove the parens
02:35	Fennec	noted. but in my REPL, user=> (BufferedImage/TYPE_BYTE_GRAY) just says 10
02:36	hiredman	ok
02:36	hiredman	well
02:36	hiredman	shrug
02:36	Lau_of_DK	Good morning all
02:36	hiredman	preffered method call syntax is (.method object args)
02:37	zakwilson	Fennec: in graphicPoke, where you have (doto getGraphics ...) I think you might mean (doto g ...)
02:37	Fennec	hmm!
02:37	Chousuke	though for static methods, use /
02:38	Fennec	zakwilson- wait, I have (let [g (. image (getGraphics))] (doto g
02:39	cgrand	Good morning Lau_of_DK!
02:40	Fennec	well, I've tweaked it per some of those suggestions and now I'm getting a boolean cast issue so it might be betterish
02:40	Chousuke	Fennec: Note that if you update to SVN your dotos will break. The syntax now requires a dot for methods
02:41	Fennec	k
02:41	Fennec	i saw a list of renamed thingies somewhere
02:41	Fennec	i'll check that when I upgrade
02:41	zakwilson	http://pastebin.ca/1285755 <-- this doesn't throw any exceptions and displays a giant button, but doesn't do what I think you want it to do.
02:41	zakwilson	Note that it uses the new doto method syntax (with dots).
02:42	Chousuke	so instead of (doto frame (setLayout ...)) you need to (doto frame (.setLayout ...)) -- this change was done to allow mixing in clojure functions (they never have a . in front of them, because those mark java methods)
02:43	Fennec	zakwilson- yeah, that don't work for me :)
02:44	Fennec	what I want => giant button; when you push it, a red line shows up Somewhere on the space above it.
02:44	zakwilson	Does it work if you remove the dots from the method names in the dotos?
02:45	Fennec	no, it keeps complaining it can't cast a java.lang.Boolean to clojure.lang.IFn at line 17
02:45	Fennec	i'll try that svn upgrade
02:46	dhaya	Hey guys, I have a question regarding keyword equality, http://paste.lisp.org/display/72184 (in the above paste, why is the last hash different from the rest)
02:46	hiredman	Fennec: too many parens on line 17
02:47	Lau_of_DK	cgrand: oh my. Does this mean that youre back with us again? :)
02:47	hiredman	((. g ....
02:47	hiredman	^- double wrapped
02:47	Chousuke	dhaya: hm
02:48	Fennec	ah :)
02:48	Chousuke	dhaya: keywords do not care about namespaces
02:48	dhaya	That seems to be causing problems during multimethod dispatch for me. I wonder changed that broke this behaviour.
02:49	Chousuke	dhaya: so :t/testkey is different from :my.test/testkey no matter what your namespace configuration is.
02:50	cgrand	Lau_of_DK: yup!
02:50	zakwilson	Fennec: this version works, but the line is grey, not red: http://pastebin.ca/1285759
02:50	Fennec	doh
02:50	Fennec	i'm using a greyscale image mode :P
02:51	Fennec	haha. anyway. awesome. busy extracting clojure-svn
02:51	zakwilson	What are you using for an editor?
02:52	Fennec	umm.... :)
02:52	Fennec	notepad++ :P
02:52	Chousuke	emacs!
02:52	cgrand	dhaya: (= ::t/testkey ::my.test/testkey)
02:52	hiredman	clojurebot: emacs is also <reply>but I like using notepad++!
02:52	clojurebot	Alles klar
02:53	Fennec	hiredman- no I don't, not really :P
02:53	Chousuke	cgrand: ... that gives me a nullpointer exception
02:53	dhaya	crand: Thanks! That was it.
02:54	Chousuke	are you sure you're not abusing keywords there? :(
02:54	Fennec	shoot
02:54	Fennec	where the heck did I put ant?
02:55	dhaya	Chousuke: I am following this : http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/7be41dbb95a7cfdd
02:55	zakwilson	Fennec: http://dept-info.labri.u-bordeaux.fr/~strandh/Teaching/Langages-Enchasses/Common/Strandh-Tutorial/indentation.html
02:56	Fennec	:P
02:56	Fennec	noted
02:56	Fennec	will learn that
02:57	zakwilson	It's one of the few things that nearly all Lispers agree on.
02:57	zakwilson	And it will help you spot problems like the one you just had.
02:57	hiredman	vimclojure seems to indent if's differently than what is described there
02:58	Fennec	awesome.
02:58	Fennec	aha! there is ant. knew I had a copy somewhere.
02:58	zakwilson	Does it line up the then and else clauses with each other and not with the test?
02:58	hiredman	yes
02:58	zakwilson	That's still readable.
02:58	hiredman	it puts the clauses under the f in the if
02:59	hiredman	very much so
02:59	Fennec	awesome! it workses!
03:00	Fennec	thanks a bundle. I shall now go play with this / learn syntax.
03:00	Fennec	indentation. stuffs.
03:00	zakwilson	So does emacs. I'm not sure I agree with the article on some of the special forms.
03:00	hiredman	"It's one of the few things that nearly all Lispers agree on."
03:00	hiredman	well, there goes that
03:01	zakwilson	General indentation for functions and special forms is standardized as described in the article.
03:55	Fennec	(defn sinfun [x] (cons x (cons (. Math (sin x)) nil))) ;; surely there's a smarter way to make a 2-element list?
03:56	cgrand	Fennec: (list a b)
03:56	cgrand	but do you really want a list?
03:57	Fennec	what else is there? vector?
03:57	cgrand	yes
03:59	Fennec	my goal is to pass these to Graphics2D.drawLine(startX, startY, endX, endY).
04:07	cgrand	Fennec: does sinfun return a point?
04:07	Fennec	something like that.
04:07	Fennec	yes.
04:11	Fennec	holy cow it's 1am.
04:11	Fennec	night all.
04:11	cgrand	I guess you have the choice between destructuring or indexed adressing:
04:11	cgrand	(let [a (sinfun xa) b (sinfun xb)] (.drawLine g (a 0) (a1) (b 0) (b1))) ; works only with vectors
04:11	cgrand	(let [[x1 y1] (sinfun xa) [[x2 y2] (sinfun xb)] (.drawLine g x1 y1 x2 y2)) ; works with lists or vectors
04:11	cgrand	night
08:46	AWizzArd	How again can I see the classpath from within Clojure? It must be something similar to (.getProperty System "java.class.path")
08:47	Lau_of_DK	(System/getProperty "java.class.path")
08:47	AWizzArd	good, that works
08:48	AWizzArd	Btw, why does the other version don't work?
08:48	Lau_of_DK	also try (.replace "good, that works" "Thanks")
08:48	AWizzArd	the replace also does not work
08:49	Lau_of_DK	The other one works here, but Im on an old rev., so maybe they removed the syntax
08:49	AWizzArd	I just checked out 1160
08:49	AWizzArd	Could that be it?
08:49	Lau_of_DK	Yes sir
08:54	AWizzArd	Is there somewhere the description of the new syntax?
08:54	Lau_of_DK	Description: (Namespace/Method arguments)
08:54	Lau_of_DK	:)
08:54	Chousuke	AWizzArd: it was recently changed
08:54	AWizzArd	i see
08:55	Chousuke	clojurebot: svn rev 1158
08:55	clojurebot	svn is https://clojure.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/clojure/
08:55	Chousuke	eh
08:55	AWizzArd	so, (String/replace "abc" "xyz") should work?
08:55	Chousuke	svn rev 1158
08:55	clojurebot	svn rev 1158; force instance member interpretation of (.method ClassName), e.g. (.getMethods String) works
08:55	Lau_of_DK	clojurebot: svn rev 1157
08:55	clojurebot	svn is https://clojure.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/clojure/
08:55	Chousuke	that was the change that broke (.getProperty System ...)
08:56	AWizzArd	hmm
08:56	Chousuke	it was intentional; you're supposed to use / with static methods
08:56	AWizzArd	okay
08:56	Chousuke	(.foo Classname) is now interpreted as Classname being an object of type Class
08:56	rhickey_	(.getProperty System) was always wrong, as (.foo bar) is for instance, not static, methods
08:57	AWizzArd	good to know
08:59	Chousuke	rhickey_: what about (. System getProperty "foo")?
08:59	rhickey_	Chousuke: nothing has changed about that
09:01	Chousuke	okay
09:01	rhickey_	latest doc: http://clojure.org/java_interop
09:04	Lau_of_DK	rhickey_: Im really very interested in the outcome of the work in regards to the problems Cliff Click pointed out, is this something that will be shared within the community at some point?
09:05	rhickey_	Lau_of_DK: which problems?
09:06	Lau_of_DK	Primarily the STMs performance problems, but also the byte-code "holes" that Clojure emits (this being completely secondary)
09:06	Lau_of_DK	@ rhickey_
09:07	rhickey_	Lau_of_DK: what STM performance problems? He had good things to say about the STM
09:07	RSchulz	Lau_of_DK: One thing I think we can expect from the Sun JVM is the application on (the already-existing) escape analysis to allocate many local values on the stack, not the heap.
09:07	blackdog	Lau_of_DK, i sent you the link the last time you mentioned this
09:08	rsynnott	this? : http://blogs.azulsystems.com/cliff/2008/05/clojure-stms-vs.html
09:08	Lau_of_DK	Some of it was good, but he mentioned that when you increased the amounts of threads when there was contention for initially yield a little better throughput, and then crater (as he put it)
09:08	rhickey_	He also wrote his loop benchmark before bitops were inlined - I sent him a subsequent drop and he acknowledged to-the-metal perf from Clojure too on his blog
09:08	rsynnott	he doesn't seem to demonstrate that it is actually worse than locking, whne it comes ot it
09:08	Lau_of_DK	rhickey_: Cool
09:08	Lau_of_DK	blackdog: I dont remember :(
09:09	Lau_of_DK	rsynnott: Ok :)
09:09	rhickey_	Lau_of_DK: the crash and burn test he had ? about whether it was the code or some JVM bug - in non-conclusive analysis it looked like a JVM library reentrant read/write lock leak
09:09	rhickey_	i.e. not Clojure
09:10	Lau_of_DK	rhickey_: Ok, but that still makes it pretty interesting. But I think the link to his blog actually answers all my questions, I see he's echoed the entire conversation regarding the STM
09:10	rhickey_	the TSP Ant Colony Optimization came up and ran fine- full use of 600 cores
09:11	Lau_of_DK	uuuh
09:11	Lau_of_DK	:)
09:12	rsynnott	rhickey_: do you have any plans to add a more extensive (CLOS-like?) object system?
09:13	Chousuke	I hear it generated an insane amounts of garbage though, but apparently for that system it amounted to almost nothing :P
09:13	Chousuke	-an
09:14	Lau_of_DK	Im not completely turned of by OOP, if I can be handled in a concurrent-friendly manner it'd be a welcome addition to Clojure
09:14	rhickey_	Chousuke: generating garbage is not a problem, the while poiunt was to demonstrate how cheap that has become - this is a test that churns constantly, so, the faster you can handle GC the faster it goes.
09:14	rhickey_	whole point
09:15	Chousuke	there's always room for improvement though. :)
09:15	Chousuke	but is it something you can do on the clojure side, or will you need JVM improvements?
09:16	rhickey_	Chousuke: I don;t understand your point, if you have a benchmark program that calls new at all, it will generate garbage, there's nothing to improve except not to call new, which would be a different program
09:17	rhickey_	the point is 600 cores calling new in a tight loop can handle gigs of garbage per second
09:18	Lau_of_DK	Impressive
09:21	Chousuke	certainly is
09:23	Chousuke	it's interesting how java has a reputation of being "slow"
09:23	rsynnott	does it?
09:24	Chousuke	maybe it's just the desktop apps.
09:24	rsynnott	I'd guess that's much the same as the Common Lisp reputation for being slow
09:24	duck1123	I think people have bad memories of applets trying to load
09:24	rsynnott	(that is a 'reputation' perpetuated by people who have either never used it, or last used it some decades ago)
09:24	Lau_of_DK	Java is slow in regards to desktop adds and those pesty applets
09:25	Chousuke	the jvm often takes a while to start and that gets interpreted as "slowness" and then generalised to the entire app
09:25	Lau_of_DK	.Net is fast though
09:25	Chousuke	or maybe the most common java desktop apps are just bloted and slow. :P
09:25	rsynnott	swing was not too fast, certainly
09:36	RSchulz	Chousuke: Something like IDEA proves that very large Swing applications can be very responsive.
09:36	RSchulz	I'd say the most pervasive remaining performance issue for Java is the very long JVM start-up time.
09:38	Chousuke	They seem to be working on that too
09:57	RSchulz	Chousuke: When I implemented my simple-minded interface that allows me to invoke from a Clojure REPL things that used to be run from the command line, the feeling of responsiveness was astounding by comparison to what I was used to.
10:39	duck1123	Does anyone know how to shut down a swank server? I'm not seeing a function for it.
10:41	deklund	duck1123: you mean above and beyond slime-quit-lisp ?
10:41	duck1123	I mean from within clojure, not emacs
10:42	drewr	duck1123: (System/exit 0)
10:42	duck1123	My problem is, I'm spawning a slime server within Tomcat, but when I shut down the server, it's not releasing the port
10:48	danlarkin	oh you want to use non exclusive ports
10:48	danlarkin	or whatever they're called
10:49	duck1123	I just want swank to shutdown/release the port when tomcat shuts down
11:22	danlarkin	duck1123: http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/Tech/addrinuse.html
11:26	daswerth	Hi everybody. Does anyone know if there is a way to get at the xml that the API pages are generated from? Is there a place to download the API or the xml?
11:26	duck1123	danlarkin: thanks. It looks like that will help. (I need to read it again in full)
11:28	Chouser	daswerth: the API pages are generated from var metadata -- I don't know that they go through an XML stage
11:29	RSchulz	As I understand it, the Clojure.org Wiki software has its own mark-up format that they generate from the Var metadata.
11:35	daswerth	Oh, I see. What exactly is the "var metadata"
11:36	RSchulz	Evaluate ^var for some var and you'll see it.
11:36	RSchulz	There's lots of interesting stuff put there by the compiler, including doc strings.
11:36	Chouser	derefernced var: filter
11:36	Chouser	var itself: (var filter) or #'filter
11:37	Chouser	var metadata: (meta (var filter) or ^#'filter
11:38	RSchulz	Sorry. I got that wrong. I need to keep the Read documentation page open all the time. I should have checked first.
11:38	Chouser	and I forgot a paren. Don't beat yourself up. :-)
11:38	hiredman	RSchulz: what is this email about?
11:39	RSchulz	Eh?
11:39	hiredman	I don't understand what you are asking about the multiple defs in a macro
11:39	RSchulz	Which email?
11:39	daswerth	Great, thanks for your help. :)
11:39	RSchulz	I have a macro that yields three (def ...) forms and I was wondering if that was a good idea or not.
11:39	hiredman	don't see why not
11:39	RSchulz	It synthesizes two of the names from one of the arguments to the macro.
11:40	RSchulz	I guess I don't, either, but I wanted to check. As I mentioned, the first thing I noticed is that only one Var is returned, that of the last (def ...) form.
11:41	RSchulz	That was what I didn't like. In my case, there's potentially a lot of computation including disk and network I/O entailed by the extra defs, and that's probably a bigger issue but also what's making me uneasy about this particular case.
11:47	mfredrickson	RSchulz: could you do what you want with a destructuring form: e.g. (mydef [sym1 sym2 sym3] ...)
11:47	mfredrickson	that way you are not introducing symbols the user didn't specifically name
11:48	RSchulz	Sure, I could let the user choose all the symbols. In fact, that's probably much better than what I did.
11:48	mfredrickson	as I understand it, automagically making symbols is (anaphoric macros?) is frowned upon in some camps
11:48	RSchulz	I think also in my particular case, the magnitude of the potential side-effect (on "legacy" Java classes) that are implied by that "all-in-one" macro are it's most troubling charcteristic.
11:49	mfredrickson	RSchulz: i see. i did not entirely understand the concern
11:49	RSchulz	Well, there's a camp for every frowny-face out there...
11:49	RSchulz	Probably I'm just making it up. I'm concerned about style and possible bad practices, but that doesn't mean everything I write will actually _be_ bad...
11:50	mfredrickson	and what a camp it would be: sad campfire songs, crying yourself to sleep in your bunk, making very morose handy crafts
12:20	replaca	RSchulz: I just did a similar thing for unit tests with my simple-tests macro: http://github.com/tomfaulhaber/unit_test/tree/master/unit_test.clj
12:20	replaca	Makes certain kinds of unit test sequences much easier to read
12:21	RSchulz	Github sure is overtaxed... Anyway, I think you can probably justify a lower standard of cleanliness in test code than in main-line code. Or is that heresy?
12:22	replaca	Well, that depends. You don't want test code to become a drag on your development
12:22	replaca	Also, gross code is gross wherever you find it :-)
12:22	replaca	RSchulz: What do you mean by overtaxed? Slow?
12:23	RSchulz	Yes. It takes forever for their pages to load.
12:23	replaca	Hmmm, I'm not having that problem. I wonder if that's just cause I'm a few blocks from them :-)
12:24	replaca	I know they were doing a hardware upgrade last night
12:24	hiredman	comes up fast here
12:25	duck1123	even when github is slow, I can usually load 2-3 pages to sourceforge's 1
12:25	hiredman	ugh
12:25	hiredman	sf
12:25	replaca	Another argument in favor of multiply defining tests is that it makes them easier to write so I'm more inclined to write more cases
12:26	replaca	sf is sooo 2002 (insert 13-year-old girl eye roll here) :-)
12:29	gnuvince	Any math buffs in here? This is a rather simple question which is not properly explained in my text book. The notation f : x -> y = f(x), does that mean that f is a function from the domain x to the codomain y where the image of the function is f(x) ?
12:32	fogus	I am building keywords in my macros, but at the moment the way it's done is (keyword (str `~s))... Is there a better way?
13:06	Lau_of_DK	Good evening gents
13:16	durka	Chouser: show and source are great, but can I suggest a feature for show
13:16	durka	namely some way to show the "interesting" methods, i.e. filter out methods that are just inherited from (say) Object
13:17	Chousuke	maybe add some optional :filter argument?
13:22	durka	hmm, (source show) doesn't look too scary
13:22	durka	maybe i'll take some blind stabs later
13:22	durka	now i really do have to go
13:38	Chouser	fogus: I can't think of a better way to get from a symbol to a keyword.
13:39	fogus	Chouser: I was afraid of that
13:40	fogus	Is there any reason why :~s is illegal?
13:46	RSchulz	fogus: It seems you're thinking that some kind of string concatenation will take place there, but that's not how it works.
13:48	RSchulz	I'm not entirely sure what happens, but probably the keyword parsing triggered by colon is interrupted by the reader macro character ~ yielding a "degenerate" keyword, which is not allowed:
13:48	Chouser	symbols and keywords are unrelated types, so I'd expect any "conversion" to have to go through a string.
13:48	RSchulz	user=> :
13:48	RSchulz	java.lang.Exception: Invalid token: :
13:48	fogus	RSchulz: '~s that does what I would expect, but :~s does not.
13:48	RSchulz	Because ' just wraps whatever reader entity comes next in (quote ...)
13:49	RSchulz	:, however, initiates the reading of a single reader entity, a keyword.
13:49	Chouser	fogus: you're sure you don't want to pass in keywords from higher upstream?
13:49	fogus	RSchulz: Understood
13:49	fogus	Chouser: Pretty sure
13:53	fogus	I'm working on a stupid little DSL that was poo-pooed on when passing in keywords... but is praised when my macros do the wrapping/unwrapping :)
13:54	Chouser	heh
13:54	Chouser	good enough, then.
13:55	Chouser	hm, that's not good: (namespace (keyword (str 'user/foo))) ==> nil
13:56	Chousuke	isn't that expected?
13:56	Chouser	fogus: and you also don't want to leave them as symbols internally?
13:56	Chouser	Chousuke: you wouldn't expect a namespace of "user" and name "foo"?
13:56	Chousuke	keywords don't care about namespaces AFAIK.
13:56	Chouser	Chousuke: not true
13:56	Chouser	(namespace ::foo) ==> "user"
13:57	Chouser	(namespace :one/two) ==> "one"
13:57	fogus	I could do that... but the problem is that changing the top-level macros are a lot easier than changing the backend
13:58	Chouser	(keyword "one" "two") ==> :one/two
13:58	Chouser	fogus: ok, just asking. what you've got seems fine, modulo that namespace issue I just mentioned.
13:58	fogus	Chouser: Thanks for the heads up
13:58	Chouser	fogus: you can of course put that little snippet in a 'to-keyword' function or something.
13:59	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: Did you check out that little something something I passed along? :)
13:59	fogus	Chouser: done. :)
13:59	Chousuke	hm.
13:59	Chousuke	interesting indeed
14:01	Chousuke	:user/user/foo has namespace user/user (is that valid?) but (keyword "user" (str 'user/foo)) has namespace user... they print the same, but are unequal
14:01	RSchulz	fogus: Does it actually matter whether the Key Words are actually Clojure keywords?
14:01	RSchulz	If you're writing a DSL, then you're using macros, presumably.
14:02	RSchulz	And if you're using macros, you control evaluation.
14:02	RSchulz	So the self-evaluating nature of keywords is less critical
14:03	RSchulz	Of course, their identity as functions (of Maps) may still be important, if you're using that aspect.
14:03	Chouser	Chousuke: It's ok to have / in namespace names, but not (I think) in symbol and keyword names
14:03	fogus	RSchulz: It does for that reason (identity as functions)
14:03	Chouser	There's an open issue about validating symbols and keywords created programmatically (instead of via the reader)
14:03	RSchulz	fogus: "It?"
14:03	Chouser	fogus: symbols also are functions of maps
14:04	fogus	RSchulz: Using keywords is kinda critical to the way that the DSL works.
14:04	RSchulz	Yes. I understand. I'm asking if that aspect of Clojure is essential to your use.
14:04	RSchulz	...that aspect of Clojure keywords... that is.
14:04	fogus	RSchulz: yes
14:04	RSchulz	Well, OK.
14:04	Chouser	('b '{a 1, b 2, c 3}) ==> 2
14:04	RSchulz	Hmmm... Did I know that already??
14:05	RSchulz	(Just musing, of course)
14:05	fogus	I didn't
14:05	Chouser	RSchulz: maybe -- it comes up as an issue on the group pretty often
14:05	fogus	Where were you about a week ago?
14:05	fogus	;)
14:05	RSchulz	Uh-oh. I hear a proposition...
14:05	jawolfe	Hi, does anyone have tips on debugging? At runtime, I keep getting cryptic error messages like NullPointerException or ClassCastExceptions, where clojure.lang.Compiler.eval is at the top of the stack and the proper source file / line number is nowhere to be found in the stack trace.
14:05	Chouser	an issue because people mis-quote things: ('+ 1 2) ==> 2
14:06	Chousuke	heh
14:06	RSchulz	jawolfe: I wrote a function (pst2) ("printStackTrace 2nd") that does (.printStackTrace (.getCasue e)) to get at the nested exception.
14:06	RSchulz	I overloaded it with a zero-arity version that just goes straight to *e
14:07	jawolfe	RSchulz: hmmm, I don't understand but I'd like to try it out ...
14:09	RSchulz	jawolfe: Check it out:
14:09	RSchulz	(defn pst2
14:09	RSchulz	"Print the stack trace of the \"cause\" of the specified exception or *e if none passed"
14:09	RSchulz	([] (.printStackTrace (.getCause *e)))
14:09	RSchulz	([e] (.printStackTrace (.getCause e)))
14:09	RSchulz	)
14:10	fogus	Chouser: Thanks for the tips. I'm off to do some refactoring.
14:10	Chouser	fogus: ok, have fun!
14:10	jawolfe	RSchulz: thanks, I'm trying now
14:11	Chouser	jawolfe: you could paste the whole stack trace
14:11	RSchulz	Is paste.lisp.org still in melt-down mode?
14:12	Chouser	when the bot's not here, that's usually a clear sign
14:12	Chouser	Choosing 'none' for the channel usually works though
14:12	RSchulz	It doesn't seem to allow specifying a channel, and of course if you don't, the bot can't post here (or anywhere)
14:12	jawolfe	Chouser: I don't have a specific bug right now, just the past few have been very hard to hunt down
14:13	Chouser	ah
14:13	RSchulz	jawolfe: Note, too, that sometimes there's a chain longer than two of exceptions. My function could be generalized to look deeper for those cases, but they seem less common.
14:13	Chouser	If it's a runtime bug, I can usually find my .clj in the stack trace somewhere.
14:14	jawolfe	RSchulz: Thanks! I'm still trying to figure out how to use this ... how do you catch exceptions again?
14:14	Chouser	If it's a compile-time bug, my .clj is often nowhere in the stack trace, but maybe in the top-level exception itself.
14:14	RSchulz	There's a special form try, but you dont' need to do that.
14:14	RSchulz	When you get an exception in the REPL, it binds *e to that exception.
14:14	jawolfe	Chouser: try this
14:14	jawolfe	(defn stupid [seq] (seq seq))
14:14	jawolfe	put that in your source file
14:15	jawolfe	compiles fine
14:15	jawolfe	when you run, no mention of the source file in the exception
14:15	RSchulz	You can't apply seq to a function. And seq is a function.
14:15	jawolfe	yes i know :)
14:15	jawolfe	i was rebinding seq by mistake and ran into this (not used to lisp-1)
14:16	Chouser	Both when I call (stupid) and (stupid 1), I get a correct file name and line number in the stack trace.
14:17	jawolfe	RShulz: in this example pst2 prints nil
14:17	RSchulz	You have to call it immediately after you get the exception in the REPL or else save an excpetion object to pass to the 1-arg version.
14:18	jawolfe	RShulz: oh, i probably cancelled the exception first
14:18	jawolfe	Chouser: try (stupid '(1 2 3))
14:18	Chouser	http://paste.lisp.org/display/72201 -- note lines 9, 20, and 21
14:19	Chouser	that looks the about the same as the second trace in my paste -- different class name, but same filenames and line numbers.
14:20	Chouser	jawolfe: are you using emacs/slime/swank?
14:20	jawolfe	hmmm, maybe it's something about how i'm testing then
14:20	jawolfe	Chouser: yes
14:20	Chouser	I'm not at all sure that particular development stack is doing Clojure and great service.
14:20	Chouser	jawolfe: are you seeing stack traces like I pasted?
14:21	jawolfe	Chouser: my stack traces are different
14:21	Chouser	similar but with no useful file names, or completely different?
14:21	jawolfe	when I put the definition and invocation into seqs.clj, i get
14:21	RSchulz	When in doubt, quite and restart your Clojure REPL.
14:21	jawolfe	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList (seqs.clj:0)
14:21	jawolfe	[Thrown class clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException]
14:21	jawolfe	Restarts:
14:21	jawolfe	0: [ABORT] Return to SLIME's top level.
14:21	jawolfe	1: [CAUSE] Throw cause of this exception
14:21	jawolfe	Backtrace:
14:21	jawolfe	0: clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:4153)
14:21	jawolfe	1: clojure.lang.Compiler.load(Compiler.java:4470)
14:21	jawolfe	2: clojure.lang.RT.loadResourceScript(RT.java:327)
14:21	jawolfe	3: clojure.lang.RT.loadResourceScript(RT.java:316)
14:21	jawolfe	4: clojure.lang.RT.load(RT.java:406)
14:21	jawolfe	5: clojure.lang.RT.load(RT.java:376)
14:21	jawolfe	6: clojure.core$load__1838$fn__1840.invoke(core.clj:3427)
14:21	jawolfe	7: clojure.core$load__1838.doInvoke(core.clj:3426)
14:21	jawolfe	8: clojure.lang.RestFn.invoke(RestFn.java:413)
14:21	jawolfe	9: clojure.core$load_one__1801.invoke(core.clj:3271)
14:22	jawolfe	10: clojure.core$load_lib__1821.doInvoke(core.clj:3308)
14:22	jawolfe	11: clojure.lang.RestFn.applyTo(RestFn.java:147)
14:22	jawolfe	12: clojure.core$apply__144.doInvoke(core.clj:374)
14:22	jawolfe	13: clojure.lang.RestFn.invoke(RestFn.java:443)
14:22	jawolfe	14: clojure.core$load_libs__1825.doInvoke(core.clj:3338)
14:22	jawolfe	15: clojure.lang.RestFn.applyTo(RestFn.java:142)
14:22	jawolfe	(sorry for flood)
14:22	jawolfe	this is consistently what i see, i tried updating to newest svn of clojure and same deal
14:22	jawolfe	if i do the invocation at the REPL, i don't get any mention of seqs.clj at all
14:22	Chouser	please use http://paste.lisp.org/ next time
14:22	Lau_of_DK	jawolfe: In emacs there's a nice mode, where with you can paste along stacktrace, and emacs will automatically make it an online Lisp paste and send that to the channel isntead
14:23	jawolfe	OK, sorry about that, will do
14:24	Chouser	jawolfe: yeah, I have no idea. My only guess is that slime/swank is somehow obscuring the true error
14:24	drewr	jawolfe: Hit 1 until you get there.
14:24	jawolfe	drewr: oh, wow
14:24	jawolfe	drewr: thanks
14:25	drewr	That shows the CAUSE. :-)
14:25	jawolfe	drewr: I never read that line, since with SBCL that says "Abort lisp procesS" or some such
14:25	drewr	Heh. I didn't either for the longest time.
14:26	jawolfe	wow, that will make my life much easier
14:26	jawolfe	thanks!
14:40	kotarak	Does anyone know, what the main differences between CPL and EPL are?
14:41	hiredman	kotarak: there is an faq, I forget where it is, my take away was "nothing"
14:41	hiredman	but Iguess that cannot be right
14:43	drewr	Did the semantics change recently with import?
14:43	drewr	For some reason I can't do (import '(org.apache.commons.logging Log)).
14:44	danlarkin	too many licenses imo
14:44	drewr	Tells me java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: org/apache/commons/logging/Log
14:44	drewr	The jar shows up on the command line from ps.
14:44	drewr	-cp ...:/path/to/commons-loggin-1.1.1.jar:...
14:45	drewr	logging
14:45	drewr	I can't think of what else I'm doing wrong.
14:46	drewr	$ jar tvf ~/tmp/src/jar/commons-logging-1.1.1.jar \| grep logging/Log.class
14:46	drewr	479 Thu Nov 22 00:28:06 CST 2007 org/apache/commons/logging/Log.class
14:46	Chouser	drewr: I don't think anything about that has changed recently.
14:47	drewr	Odd.
14:47	drewr	This has completely killed my productivity today.
14:50	Chouser	drewr: works for me.
14:51	drewr	trunk@1160?
14:51	Chouser	yep
14:51	Chouser	you might do "ant clean" and rebuild clojure if you haven't
14:52	drewr	Yeah, that's how I rebuild.
14:52	Chouser	the error is coming from the import line?
14:52	drewr	Yeah, that's just an example though. None of my jars works for some reason.
14:52	drewr	I can (import '(java.io File)) though.
14:52	Chouser	oh my.
14:55	Chouser	drewr: the output of this looks right?
14:55	Chouser	(dorun (map println (.getURLs (ClassLoader/getSystemClassLoader))))
14:55	drewr	Hm, yep. All the stuff from -cp.
14:59	AWizzArd	115 people in here, nice. What was the record so far?
15:00	AWizzArd	hiredman: does your clojurebot keep track of the max number of visitors?
15:00	hiredman	no
15:01	hiredman	lemme check if pircbot gives me an easy way to track that
15:02	hiredman	oooh
15:07	hiredman	clojurebot: max people?
15:07	clojurebot	max people is 116
15:07	AWizzArd	nice
15:08	hiredman	not done
15:15	hiredman	now it's done
15:15	hiredman	can't be bothered to figure out how to update the proxy live
15:15	AWizzArd	grats
15:17	hiredman	hmmm
15:20	drewr	No matching method found: sleep for class java.lang.Class
15:20	drewr	That's screwed up.
15:20	AWizzArd	drewr: you updated your clojure.jar?
15:21	AWizzArd	You must say: (Thread/sleep ...)
15:21	hiredman	that just bit me
15:21	AWizzArd	I had the same, it was svn 1158. Rich explained that (.sleep Thread ...) always was wrong. Clojure was just so nice to allow it for a while.
15:22	hiredman	I hope I got all the static methods
15:24	drewr	AWizzArd: Ah, thanks!
15:27	hiredman	clojurebot: *
15:27	clojurebot	* is just for when you are lazy and sloppy
15:27	hiredman	clojurebot: * is also <reply>http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Java_Programming/StarImports
15:27	clojurebot	In Ordnung
15:28	kotarak	Is there a way to unquote things in a normal quote? (def bar 5) (quote (foo ~bar baz)) => (foo 5 baz)?
15:30	danlarkin	kotarak: no I think you'll need to use syntax-quote for that
15:30	Chouser	kotarak: I don't think so. The reader gets mad when it sees ~ outside of a `
15:31	kotarak	And there is no (quasiquote ....) for `, as is (quote ...) for '...
15:33	Chouser	kotarak: I think that's right.
15:33	drewr	(use [clojure.contrib.str-utils :as s]) => java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.str-utils
15:34	kotarak	drewr: you must quote the vector
15:34	drewr	Hm.
15:34	drewr	Why does this give me a different error? (use '(clojure.contrib.str-utils :as s))
15:35	drewr	Don't know how to create ISeq from Keyword.
15:35	kotarak	Because you use a list and not a vector
15:35	Chouser	drewr: that's trying to use a list of libs, str-utils, :as, and s
15:35	drewr	They're both seqs.
15:35	drewr	hm.
15:35	Chouser	vectors in 'use' and 'require' are for options on a particular lib, lists are for lists of libs
15:36	drewr	OK.
15:36	kotarak	drewr: hmmm.. I think a list is a list and a vector is a vector. You can both ask for seq, which is a view on them. But they on themselves are collections, not seqs.
15:36	Chouser	I find it pretty hard to use correctly, but I haven't complained much because I haven't come up with anything better
15:37	drewr	I know.
15:37	drewr	I normally use (ns) anyway, but I'm trying to figure out this importing mess.
15:37	Chouser	kotarak: almost. lists are one of the few (the only) collections which is its own seq
15:38	kotarak	Chouser: for lists, yes. But for general collections this is not the case.
15:40	Chouser	kotarak: right
15:40	drewr	There's nothing syntactically wrong with this, right? (import '(org.apache.poi.hssf.usermodel HSSFSheet))
15:41	drewr	It produces java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: org/apache/poi/hssf/usermodel/HSSFSheet. That doesn't smell like a syntax problem though.
15:42	drewr	user> (filter #(re-find #".poi." (str %)) (into [] (.getURLs (ClassLoader/getSystemClassLoader))))
15:42	drewr	(#<URL file:/Users/aar/tmp/src/jar/poi-3.2-FINAL-20081019.jar>)
15:42	Chouser	(import '(foo.bar Baz)) ==> java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: foo.bar.Baz
15:42	Chouser	My exception has dots instead of slashes
15:43	drewr	OS X did a Java update on me. What's your java -version?
15:43	drewr	java version "1.5.0_16" here.
15:43	Chouser	1.6.0_0-b11
15:44	Chouser	that could explain the different message
15:45	drewr	(.getProperty System "java.version")
15:46	drewr	"1.6.0_07"
15:46	Chouser	heh: No matching method found: getProperty for class java.lang.Class
15:46	drewr	Yeah, sorry.
15:46	drewr	(System/getProperty "java.version")
15:46	Chouser	"1.6.0_0"
15:46	drewr	Anyway, I still get java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: org/apache/poi/hssf/usermodel/HSSFSheet!
15:47	Chouser	can you slap together a little Java program to use that class and make sure that works?
15:49	drewr	How about this:
15:49	drewr	user=> (org.apache.poi.hssf.usermodel.HSSFWorkbook.)
15:49	drewr	#<HSSFWorkbook org.apache.poi.hssf.usermodel.HSSFWorkbook@609903f4>
15:49	drewr	user=> (import '(org.apache.poi.hssf.usermodel HSSFWorkbook))
15:49	drewr	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: org/apache/poi/hssf/usermodel/HSSFWorkbook (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
15:49	drewr	How is that possible?
15:49	Chouser	wow
15:54	galdor	hi!
15:54	galdor	I'd like to use clojure for a school project
15:54	galdor	it must run as a java applet
15:55	galdor	so I think it would be a way to use lisp and stay on the requirements
15:55	galdor	I didn't see a lot of thing about applet programming in clojure
15:55	Chouser	galdor: It doesn't quite work yet.
15:55	RSchulz	Whence the requirement for execution as an applet?
15:56	RSchulz	Java applets in browsers are just a dead-end, if you ask me.
15:56	galdor	the teacher wants a web-based end-user interface
15:56	drewr	Is there a file limit to -cp?
15:56	galdor	BUT it's a language processing application
15:56	galdor	so I need sound input
15:57	Chousuke	galdor: can't you write the backend separately from the frontend?
15:57	galdor	it's flash or java
15:57	Chouser	galdor: I've got a small patch to Clojure which allows appletviewer to load a compiled Clojure app, but I've so far failed to get it to draw anything.
15:57	galdor	Chousuke: if I need java for the applet, what's the problem ?
15:57	RSchulz	drewr: None that matters, I don't think.
15:57	galdor	I read http://groups.google.com.sg/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/f0c69735c5a9bd03/1e0dced366af9077?lnk=gst&q=webstart&fwc=1
15:58	galdor	if I can compile a clojure application to java bytecode, it should work, nop ?
15:58	Chousuke	galdor: applets run in a restricted environment and clojure doesn't quite like that. :/
15:58	Chousuke	there are things you can't do even with java if you're running as an applet
15:58	Chouser	galdor: you can sign the applet and that'll wor
15:58	Chouser	galdor: your user has to click through a permissions step
15:59	RSchulz	Chousuke: What about WebStart / JLP? (It's JLP, right Java Launching Protocol or some such)? There you get to control the degree of sandboxing-style restriction, right?
15:59	RSchulz	JNLP, maybe?
15:59	RSchulz	Yeah, JNLP: http://java.sun.com/developer/JDCTechTips/2001/tt0530.html
16:00	galdor	Chouser: honestly, I don't care, I do not sell this application, I've to do it to get my diploma, that's it
16:00	galdor	as long as the teacher can click on a link, see the application running and test it, it's fine for me
16:00	RSchulz	If I was under deadline in a class, I wouldn't pin my hopes on Clojure in an applet right now...
16:01	galdor	it's clojure or bare-java
16:01	galdor	I know some lisp
16:01	RSchulz	Can't you make the case to your teacher that the browser is a non-essential element of the exercise?
16:01	galdor	I don't know java
16:01	RSchulz	Is this a programming class?
16:02	galdor	it's a computer science master, and a spoken language processing course
16:02	RSchulz	What languages are you comfortable with? What's the time-frame for completion?
16:02	galdor	if the user needs to download a jar, perhaps it will be ok
16:02	galdor	I'm a C programmer
16:02	RSchulz	Either way, Java would have to be installed on the system.
16:02	RSchulz	If you're a C programmer, I'd say Java is closer than Clojure.
16:03	galdor	but honestly, 2 months for a voip network with audio processing with C...
16:03	Guest38653	Can anyone tell me how to do if __name__ == "__main__" in clojure?
16:03	galdor	yep, but I hate C++ and java, and discovered lisp some months ago
16:03	galdor	love it
16:03	Guest38653	coming from python
16:03	RSchulz	(= __name__ "__main__")
16:03	RSchulz	Guest38653: Are you asking about pattern matching?
16:04	frodwith	it's a python idiom
16:04	zakwilson	Clojure is not the only option for a Lisp on the JVM. I believe Kawa makes it pretty easy to make applets.
16:04	Guest38653	In python, that would detect if the current module is the main module
16:04	frodwith	here's a package - if it's being run a script, do:
16:04	RSchulz	I know no Python.
16:04	danlarkin	Guest38653: you don't need the if __name__ == "__main__" idiom in clojure
16:05	Guest38653	Sorry, i'm new to irc, I think people are whispering at me? How do I whisper?
16:05	seraph	zakwilson: kawa is a scheme impl in java, just like sisc. there is also a new lisp impl in java called armedbear
16:06	zakwilson	seraph: Yes, I've heard of ABCL. I don't know if it's any good.
16:06	seraph	dunno if they can run java-applets, but i think all of them create bytecode at runtime and i dont think its allowed in an applet
16:07	galdor	zakwilson: I don't know, I googled for lisp on jvm, found clojure
16:07	galdor	seems used a lot recently
16:07	galdor	lot of resources, doc, people
16:07	zakwilson	Clojure is growing very fast right now.
16:07	zakwilson	Kawa, on the other hand has been around a while. I don't think it ever got a huge amount of attention.
16:08	zakwilson	http://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/Applet-compilation.html
16:08	galdor	if I have to learn a new thing, I'd like something I could reuse
16:08	galdor	clojure allow me to do concurrency, etc.
16:08	galdor	you link shows a nice example though
16:09	zakwilson	I think Clojure is more useful in general. On the other hand, Kawa will make it easy to do what you said you want to do.
16:11	mchurch	What is the best way to make arbitrary Unix/command-line calls in Clojure?
16:12	gnuvince	You mean like system()?
16:12	AWizzArd	Chouser: any news about Applets written in Clojure? Do you know what components are missing to make that work?
16:16	danlarkin	mchurch: (.exec (Runtime/getRuntime) "ls")
16:17	mchurch	danlarkin: Great. Thanks.
16:24	Chouser	galdor: someone did a signed applet in Clojure ages ago, so it should still be possible.
16:24	Chouser	(where "ages" == "months")
16:25	Chouser	I don't know how to go about doing that, but that's a directly you could look.
16:33	replaca	Guest38653: clojure works a little differently than python here because it's based on the jvm
16:34	seraph	replaca: i think Guest48653 already left
16:34	hiredman	clojurebot: max people?
16:34	clojurebot	max people is 116
16:34	replaca	Ahh, gave up, did he?
16:34	replaca	oh well/
16:41	AWizzArd	Chouser: do you mean galdor or AWizzArd?
16:41	Chouser	he does raise a good point. The closest we've got is (defn -main ...), which may be close enough.
16:42	Chouser	AWizzArd: I meant galdor. My work with unsigned applets hasn't progressed much.
16:42	Chouser	I think I've got a (very rough) patch that addresses the dynamic classloader issue, but I can't be sure because something else is failing and I'm not sure what.
16:57	danlarkin	Chouser: you better not move on to another language, we'll suffer too much :'(
17:02	Chouser	danlarkin: aw, what a sweet thing to say!
17:02	danlarkin	which should tell you something, since I am certainly not known for being sweet
17:04	drewr	To what is Chouser moving??
17:06	Chouser	I'm much more concerned about what happens in rhickey gets busy doing something else.
17:08	abrooks	Yes, at this point, Clojure seems quite vulnerable to "bus accidents". rhickey has a lot of the long term vision in his head. We should keep him very, very safe. :)
17:08	abrooks	... safe AND happy. :-D
17:09	Chouser	yes, and while I don't think I can do much about the former, we can all help with the latter.
17:10	Chouser	...one of the reasons I'm a big advocate of not whining about revision control choices, license choices, etc.
17:25	danlarkin	we could all chip in for a safety bubble
17:26	danlarkin	http://fashionindie.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/bubble_boy2.jpg ... even looks like rhickey's hair
17:26	drewc	danlarkin: i'd contribute :)
17:42	drewr	Chouser: It was -Xbootclasspath/a:clojure.jar!
17:44	hiredman	clojurebot: haskell?
17:44	clojurebot	No entiendo
17:44	hiredman	clojurebot: haskell is <reply>Yo dawg, I heard you like Haskell, so I put a lazy thunk inside a lazy thunk so you don't have to compute while you compute.
17:44	clojurebot	In Ordnung
18:32	Chouser	drewr: all your class-visibility weirdness?
18:32	Chouser	drewr: just removed -Xbootpath and it worked?
18:33	drewr	Yep.
18:34	drewr	It seems to occur only with the poi jar in the mix. I was tired of investigating.
18:36	Chouser	yep. well, good to know.
19:29	Chouser	RT/load uses baseLoader() which currently requires the custom dynamic classloader.
19:30	Chouser	RT/load needs this apparently just to check timestamps to see if the .clj needs to be recompiled.
19:30	Chouser	I would if it would be appropriate to allways use the contextClassLoader forthis.
19:30	rhickey	Chouser: probably
19:34	dreish	Has anyone else seen ridiculously bad threading performance running Clojure on Mac OS X? Like, pmap taking about ten times longer than map and only 140% CPU on a machine with 8 cores, whereas the same code on an 8-core Linux box runs about twice as fast as pmap?
19:34	rhickey	Chouser: I think we may need to have some explicit way to declare - No dynamic classloader please
19:34	dreish	(twice as fast _with_ pmap, I meant)
19:36	dreish	On Linux, with both IcedTea 1.7.0 and Sun's 1.5, I managed to squeeze roughly another 40% out of the benchmark discussed at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/972bab614b27c6f8?hl=en
19:37	Chouser	we have USE_CONTEXT_LOADER
19:38	Chouser	if everything used RT/baseLoader instead of RT/ROOT_CLASSLOADER, then use-context-classloader would be sufficient.
19:39	Chouser	...assuming there was some way to set that value early enough.
19:40	rhickey	Chouser: yes, moving away from direct references to ROOT_CLASSLOADER is part of this change
19:48	drewr	If I need to keep an index looping through a seq, is (loop [x xs i 0] ... (recur (rest xs) (inc i))) the only way?
19:48	drewr	That there was a way to do it with doseq, but I'm not getting it.
19:49	mfredrickson	(doc indexed)
19:49	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
19:49	mfredrickson	(doc index)
19:49	clojurebot	Excuse me?
19:49	drewr	Er, "I thought that.."
19:50	mfredrickson	clojure bot is going senile: http://clojure.org/api#toc590
19:50	mfredrickson	clojurebot: clojurebot is senile
19:50	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
19:50	mfredrickson	though that may not be what i think it is
19:51	mfredrickson	the function might be in clojure-contrib
19:52	mfredrickson	drewr: i think what you want is (indexed ...) in clojure.contrib.seq-utils
19:53	wipewindows	anym americans here? can you drink tapwater in USA? everywhere?
19:53	wipewindows	in california?
19:54	mfredrickson	wipewindows: certainly in CA, but ironically they all drink bottled water
19:54	wipewindows	why?
19:54	mfredrickson	pretension
19:54	mfredrickson	(says a former CA resident)
19:55	wipewindows	is your showerwater drinkable?
19:55	mfredrickson	i always drink my showerwater when done. ;-)
19:56	slangan	which definition of pretension? 4?
19:57	mfredrickson	it was a joke. If my memory serves, the city of San Francisco forbids government agencies from buying bottled water. The state is getting it's act together
19:57	mfredrickson	s/it's/its
19:57	mfredrickson	arg
19:58	slangan	is bottled less wsteful?
19:58	mfredrickson	precisely
19:59	wipewindows	just thinking of it now watching a movie referencing it, im scandanivan and we are spoiled with it here
20:00	Chouser	clojure and tapwater are both free and highly recommended in the U.S.
20:01	wipewindows	programmabale nanotech -> clojure -> pure water -> profit
20:01	drewr	Clojure is way more free than tap water. :-)
20:01	Chouser	both have alternatives (java and bottled water, respectively) that amount to roughly the same thing, but require more work for everyone involved.
20:01	mfredrickson	a tap is like a lazy infinite sequence
20:02	wipewindows	lol
20:02	Chouser	while a bottle is definitely an Object.
20:03	dreish	Oh, wow, java -server makes a ginormous difference on the Mac.
20:04	mfredrickson	the help on java -server is great 'to select the "server" VM'
20:04	dreish	I guess client programs need to run slowly so users don't get scared.
20:06	mfredrickson	they should have called it -enterprise
20:06	mfredrickson	we all know adding the word enterprise makes things faster, better, stronger
20:12	RSchulz	svn 1160
20:12	RSchulz	svn rev 1160
20:12	clojurebot	svn rev 1160; Moved to Eclipse Public License - see epl-v10.html or http://opensource.org/licenses/eclipse-1.0.php
20:13	dreish	That one isn't GPL-compatible either.
20:15	rhickey	GPL isn't that one compatible either
20:15	mfredrickson	GPL isn't GPL compatible. ;-)
20:16	dreish	Why not BSD or LGPL?
20:17	rhickey	dreish: non-reciprocal
20:17	RSchulz	Take it outside, guys. (;-)
20:17	dreish	I'm not complaining, promise.
20:19	dreish	clojure-contrib will move too, right?
20:20	mfredrickson	i wonder if anyone has ever done a study of license effects. could that be feasibly measured?
20:20	rhickey	dreish: yes, EPL is not different from CPL in any significant way, the move is just to stay with the latest version of that license tree
20:21	mfredrickson	(can you tell I'm writing up a lab experiment paper right now?)
20:21	hiredman	hah!
20:21	dreish	From what I'm reading it just removes some of the more severe patent-retaliation terms of the CPL.
20:21	hiredman	then I was right
20:22	hiredman	I knew there was no difference!
20:22	RSchulz	Is this supported: (into-array CLASS collection) where CLASS is an instance of java.lang.Class? If not, is the removal of the CLASS argument a recent change?
20:23	RSchulz	hiredman: You know what would be a cool feature for clojurebot? The ability to "grep" through SVN commit comments.
20:23	rhickey	user=> (into-array Class [])
20:23	rhickey	#<Class[] [Ljava.lang.Class;@6237e0>
20:23	RSchulz	I ask because the docs on the Java interop page don't list the form with class first, but I have some (slightly) older code that does.
20:23	hiredman	RSchulz: ugh, yeah, but, blarg
20:23	RSchulz	Absolutely. Blarg on it all!
20:24	rhickey	(doc into-array)
20:24	clojurebot	Returns an array with components set to the values in aseq. The array's component type is type if provided, or the type of the first value in aseq if present, or Object. All values in aseq must be compatible with the component type. Class objects for the primitive types can be obtained using, e.g., Integer/TYPE.; arglists ([aseq] [type aseq])
20:24	RSchulz	(find-commit "made splorg extra spiffy")
20:24	hiredman	I am more interested in getting sandboxed code execution
20:24	RSchulz	Ah. So I put a bug in your brain, eh?
20:24	hiredman	you and a few others
20:25	RSchulz	rhickey: OK. I must have written that code from the (doc ...) string, but just now was looking at the Java Interop page, which doesn't mention the Class argument.
20:25	hiredman	hanging in #java now, getting bot envy for javabot
20:34	bradbev	As I'm starting to leverage some of Java's libraries I am finding that my class path is getting huge. Is there some convention that Java/ANT has where I can tell Java packages to install to a particular location & just have that in my classpath? Sorry for the Java rather than Clojure question.
20:35	bradbev	hmm, actually I'll ask in #java also...
20:35	RSchulz	Q: Is there something one must do to / with an Agent so the JVM does not hang at shut-down?
20:36	rhickey	bradbev: -Djava.ext.dirs
20:36	rhickey	setthat to some dir and dump jars in it
20:37	bradbev	awesome, that's exactly what I was wanting
20:37	bradbev	thanks much!
20:40	RSchulz	Q...: Aside from calling (await ...) on those agents, of course.
20:41	rhickey	RSchulz: (find-doc "agent")
20:41	rhickey	will yield:
20:41	rhickey	(doc shutdown-agents)
20:41	clojurebot	Initiates a shutdown of the thread pools that back the agent system. Running actions will complete, but no new actions will be accepted; arglists ([])
20:42	RSchulz	I see...
20:42	RSchulz	Is there a good way to unburden the use of a function that itself uses Agents under the hood from remembering to call this function?
20:42	RSchulz	(...the _user_ of a function...)
20:46	dreish	RSchulz: are you using Script.java?
20:46	RSchulz	No. I'm just running in a REPL.
20:46	dreish	Trying to exit with Ctrl-D?
20:47	RSchulz	Yes.
20:48	dreish	Maybe main() should call that after the for (;;) loop.
20:48	dreish	Can't really think of any good reason not to do that.
20:48	RSchulz	rhickey: What do you think about that suggestion? Should (shutdown-agents) be implicit in exiting the REPL?
20:50	dreish	(It must be one of my better ideas if it's taking him this long to figure out what's wrong with it.)
20:52	hiredman	http://gist.github.com/36217 <-- sandbox
20:53	RSchulz	Epiphany?
20:54	RSchulz	Oh, that's too easy... Scratch that... Too simple. As wel all know, "simple isn't the same as easy."
20:55	hiredman	it will need some tuning
20:55	hiredman	I am sure
20:55	hiredman	that just sort of blocks IO right now
21:03	RSchulz	hiredman: Interesting. I just dealt with conveying I/O from a sub-process (OS-level) to out. A simple copy loop sent to an agent works well.
21:06	RSchulz	hiredman: I think I misinterpreted "blocks". I thought you mean "blocks" as in "stalls".
21:06	RSchulz	You mean it prevents I/O entirely, yes?
21:10	bradbev	if I use gen-interface, will it be loaded & ready to go as soon as I evaluate it?
21:10	bradbev	I'm trying to basically do http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/77e626c5440bf1a0/487327209b633451?lnk=gst&q=gen-interface#487327209b633451 - but I can't load contrib.gen-interface due to a name conflict
21:15	Chouser	bradbev: clojure.core/gen-interface is for generating interfaces at AOT compile time
21:16	hiredman	RSchulz: yes
21:17	RSchulz	bradbev: Did you look at (proxy ...)?
21:17	bradbev	ok - is there a way to gen the interface that JNA appears to need to fill out? (I'm guessing that JNA constructs a class adhering to your Interface when it does the load)
21:17	Chouser	bradbev: if you're sure you want the less-supported runtime loading behavior of clojure.contrib.gen-interface, you can alias the function you need, and still useit.
21:18	bradbev	well, I'm not _sure_ - but I do want to poke around with JNA from clojure
21:19	RSchulz	Q Re shutdown-agents: Is there a way to "put individual agents to rest?"
21:20	bradbev	Chouser: sorry to be daft - how do I alias like that? I thought (ns test
21:20	bradbev	(:require [clojure.contrib.gen-interface :as gi])
21:20	bradbev	(:import (com.sun.jna Library Native Platform))) would do the trick, but I have a name conflict
21:20	Chouser	bradbev: for playing around in a repl, it's probably appropriate to use gen-and-load-interface
21:21	bradbev	yeah, that's what I figured
21:22	RSchulz	Chouser: Does gen-and-load-interface still exist? Thought all the gen stuff was unified under (gen-class ...)?
21:23	Chouser	bradbev: sorry, working on the alias line. this still doesn't come naturally to me
21:23	Chouser	RSchulz: yes, it's still in clojure-contrib
21:24	bradbev	np Chouser - I'm glad for any help.
21:24	RSchulz	Ah. But is it advisable? Or just a matter of clinging to the past?
21:25	bradbev	RSchulz: the clojure/core stuff looks to only be useful when compiling a module too. I just want to mess around from slime for right now
21:26	bradbev	- although using compile file isn't getting be there with gen-interface either :(
21:26	RSchulz	OK, but as a Vimmer, I have no insight to offer to Emacsians...
21:26	Chouser	yeah, I'd recommend not using gen-and-load-anything except for "playing"
21:26	RSchulz	Frankly, I anxiously away the next release of Enclojure.
21:27	RSchulz	___ANXIOUSLY___
21:28	RSchulz	You out there Eric T? Give Us Our ENCLOJURE!!
21:28	RSchulz	...Sorry... Lost my composure there.
21:29	Chouser	at least you still have your compojure
21:30	RSchulz	And eventually I'll get my composure back, too! What a deal.
21:31	RSchulz	No... Time for supper.
21:31	RSchulz	Gah. "Now... Time for supper."
21:31	RSchulz	Who invented the keyboard, anyway?
21:32	Chouser	oh! figgin' bug in gen-interface.
21:33	RSchulz	And by a guy whose name is a near homophone to my own, actually, and from the town of my own birth! ... None of it helps...
21:34	RSchulz	Christopher Sholes.
21:34	bradbev	Chouser: bug?
21:40	Chouser	bradbev: update to clojure-contrib rev 308 and then:
21:40	Chouser	(use '[clojure.contrib.gen-interface :only (gen-and-load-interface) :rename {gen-and-load-interface load-iface}])
21:40	bradbev	yesh
21:40	bradbev	ok :)
21:41	Chouser	heh. or just (use 'clojure.contrib.gen-interface)
21:41	Chouser	I've renamed things so they no longer conflict.
21:41	bradbev	cool
21:42	bradbev	thanks man, at least I can use the gen-interface stuff now! will let you know how I get on...
21:43	Chouser	great
21:46	bradbev	errr. I don't spose gen-interface handles varargs at all? No matter if it doesn't - I just won't wrap printf
21:47	Chouser	bradbev: i think java varargs are always just an Object[] as the last arg.
21:47	bradbev	ah
21:47	bradbev	so the Object... syntax just won't work
21:50	Chouser	right
21:50	bradbev	yah - JNA works. Thanks a bunch Chouser. Though it did have a cow with the printf decl - ['printf [String Object[]] Void]
21:50	Chouser	yeah, that won't work either -- I'm not sure how to specify an array
21:51	bradbev	hmm, so does that mean that clojure-core/gen-interface also can't specify arrays?
21:53	Chouser	there's got to be a way
21:53	bradbev	yeah - well it doesn't bother me too much :)
21:53	bradbev	thanks again for all the help
21:53	Chouser	well, it bother me, now.
22:01	Chouser	oh, wait, you don't need specify methods that are provided by base classes.
22:01	slangan	If I want tocall octave or C++ code from Clojure, how do I do?
22:03	Chouser	slangan: that's what my conversation with bradbev was just about.
22:10	alphazero	Hi all.
22:11	Chouser	Well, there's got to be a better way, but this works: (gen-and-load-interface 'x.Foo8 [] ['m [Integer (class (make-array Object 1))] Void/TYPE])
22:11	Chouser	alphazero: hi!
22:12	alphazero	chouser: was that issue with arrays related to the jvm's naming of array classes?
22:15	alphazero	(.getName (.getClass (.getMethods (.getClass (new Object)))))
22:16	durka	"[Ljava.lang.reflect.Method;"
22:17	alphazero	durka: yep. that leading [ .. is that the problem?
22:17	durka	sorry, what problem?
22:18	durka	clojurebot: are you asleep?
22:18	clojurebot	Pardon?
22:19	alphazero	durka: something about not being able to spec arrays bother Chouser earlier.
22:19	alphazero	bothering
22:20	gnuvince_	How would you get a bunch of agents to write into a ref?
22:22	gnuvince_	(and know when all agents are done)
22:23	durka	Chouser: why does ('+ '1 '2 '3) give an illegal arg exception?
22:23	durka	i understand the example after that, with the map
22:24	gnuvince_	durka: you cannot call a symbol
22:25	gnuvince_	Hmmm
22:25	durka	well, => ('+ {'+ "plus" '- "minus"})
22:25	durka	"plus"
22:25	gnuvince_	apparently you can.
22:25	durka	you can sometimes
22:25	gnuvince_	Yeah, sorry
22:25	gnuvince_	I guess they work like keywords then
22:25	durka	(fn? '+) false, but (ifn? '+) true
22:26	hiredman	the '+ , the symbol + is not a function
22:27	hiredman	but symbols are callable
22:27	durka	it looks like clojure.lang.Symbol has invoke methods with one and two Objects
22:27	durka	the one-arg would be the map usage
22:27	hiredman	two arg is also for map
22:27	hiredman	map and default
22:28	durka	ah
22:28	durka	thanks
22:32	Chouser	sorry guys, stepped out. Glad you figured it out. :-)
22:33	durka	question on idioms
22:33	durka	since map is lazy i've been wrapping it in doall at the REPL
22:33	durka	does that make sense
22:33	durka	i.e. (doall (map prn <seq>))
22:34	Chouser	at the repl there's no need, as the Print part of REPL will print the whole thing
22:35	Chouser	...unless you set print-length, which you should
22:39	Chouser	:-(
22:42	slangan	anyone into nanotech here?
22:44	gnuvince_	going to bed
22:44	gnuvince_	Later all
22:44	Chouser	gnuvince_: g'night
22:45	Chouser	slangan: if by nanotech you mean very small programs, I'm all over it.
22:46	slangan	lol
22:47	slangan	im thinking I should study materials science and nanotech
22:47	slangan	perhaps, im into computer games and machine learning but the rest of CS doesnt interes t me that much
22:47	slangan	and nanotech seems supercool
22:47	slangan	and useful
23:55	durka	Chouser: I was playing with clojure.contrib.repl-utils::show
23:56	durka	i don't know much about reflection, but sometimes the output is "cleaner" (to my eyes) using .getDeclared{Fields,Methods,Constructors} instead of .get{Fields,Methods,Constructors}
23:57	durka	for example, with clojure.lang.Symbol you avoid printing the 22 different variations of .invoke()