#clojure – 2008-12-10

2008-12-10

05:31	Lau_of_DK	Morning all
07:01	AWizzArd	When I do (load-file "/path/myfile.clj"), what could then be the reason for getting a EOF exception in the last line of that file?
07:01	AWizzArd	I think this is not very exceptional that the file ends where.. well.. it ends.
07:02	mibu	AWizzArd: maybe the file was so interesting and the reader just wanted to protest that it's over. ;-)
07:03	AWizzArd	yup, right, that was it
07:03	mibu	AWizzArd: but seriously, who raised the exception, the reader or the load?
07:04	AWizzArd	Well, there was an unbalanced paren that caused it.
07:04	AWizzArd	So probably the reader.
07:05	mibu	you solved the problem too quickly. that's not fun :-)
07:45	rhickey	try this next time you get an exception: (map bean (.getStackTrace *e))
07:48	AWizzArd	ah oki, thanks
07:48	Lau_of_DK	What is *e ? I dont recall seeing star syntax in Clojure
07:48	AWizzArd	last exception
07:48	AWizzArd	just a normal variable
07:49	AWizzArd	and the star syntax still makes sense for global/dynamic vars, created with (def var)
07:51	AWizzArd	is the (.. syntax for doing things like frame.getContentPane().add(yellowLabel, BorderLayout.CENTER); ?
07:58	AWizzArd	(doto frame (.add (.getContentPane) yellow BorderLayout/CENTER)) ...) looks a bit strange?
07:59	mibu	I have a theoretical question about special forms: why isn't let simulated with macros and fn? is it just a matter of practicality?
08:00	blackdog	looks to me like it is, core.clj line 24
08:01	AWizzArd	yes, let is implemented as a macro
08:01	mibu	oh, in the docs it appears as a special form
08:02	AWizzArd	Well yeah, it uses some magic
08:02	AWizzArd	it expands into (fn* let ...)
08:02	mibu	no wait. it's not really a macro. it still uses a special form (let*)
08:03	AWizzArd	right, and let* is the real special form.. but let itself is a macro
08:03	rhickey	mibu: from a binding perspective, let can be defined in terms of fn, from a practical perspective, it never is, or, if it is, there is a special case of determining which fns don't need to be realized as proper objects. It is much simpler for them to be different
08:04	AWizzArd	In Common Lisp LET is also introduced as a special operator.
08:04	AWizzArd	Some years ago I had an interesting discussion with Don Geddis about this issue.
08:04	mibu	rhickey: so it's only a practical matter, there isn't a theoretical limit, right?
08:04	mibu	AWizzArd: yeah, I was wondering why it's that way in CL too.
08:05	AWizzArd	In principle let and let* don't need to be special forms.
08:05	mibu	rhickey: same thing goes with loop? it could have been macro'd with fn and let, no?
08:07	rhickey	I personally see let defined via fn as taking it reduction one step too far, since in implementation you reintroduce the distinction, it's the difference between a minimal calculus and a language
08:08	AWizzArd	yes
08:08	rhickey	I think real languages and their use have cost models that matter. In Clojure, when you say fn you get an object, an overhead I wouldn't want to incur for let/loop
08:08	rhickey	So I want them to be different and not to care about or rely on an implementation detail to optimize the non-realized cases
08:09	rhickey	Others might prefer a minimal calculus, Scheme being a good example
08:09	mibu	hey, I wasn't complaining. just curious about theoretical limits. I'm all for practical compromises.
08:10	rhickey	Scheme maximizes what you can do with lambda
08:10	duck1123	for most people, it doesn't affect anything if it's a special form, a fn, or a macro. It works, that's all that matters
08:12	AWizzArd	How can I do frame.getContentPane().add(yellowLabel, BorderLayout.CENTER); inside a (doto frame ...)?
08:12	mibu	rhickey: on the subject of special forms, what's your take about exceptions in clojure, are they interop necessities or a legitimate flow control idiom? (I'm asking because they appear in the docs in the special forms section and not in the java interop section, where other necessary special forms are. )
08:12	rhickey	I don't think exceptions should be used for flow control in general
08:14	mibu	rhickey: I meant as a legitimate language construct in a functional programming language, not a botched up loop or switch
08:14	rhickey	mibu: not exceptions, maybe continuations
08:15	mibu	rhickey: aren't they the same as far as being side-effects?
08:18	rhickey	I'm thinking more about hierarchical exceptions where some intervening code can intercept your non-local transfer by catching its super class
08:19	mibu	rhickey: isn't that like interrupt handlers?
08:25	AWizzArd	I think (. frame (getContentPane) (.add panel BorderLayout/CENTER)) is equivalent to frame.getContentPane().add(panel, BorderLayout/CENTER);
08:26	AWizzArd	But how can one do this with (.add ..) in the front, or (.getContentPane ..) instead of (. frame ...)?
08:26	AWizzArd	And how can one do this in a (doto frame ...)?
08:32	rhickey	AWizzArd: (.add (.getContentPane frame) panel BorderLayout/CENTER)
08:32	AWizzArd	hmm yes, I tried this first, but got some strange exception
08:33	AWizzArd	rhickey: btw, in your example under "Hosted on the JVM" you say (doto frame ...) and all these java functions don't start with a dot, as in (.add ...), but it simply is (add ...)
08:33	Lau_of_DK	(.. frame (getContentPane) (add BorderLayout/CENTER)) <-- Isnt that it AWizzArd ?
08:34	AWizzArd	when I do begin with (.add ...) it complains: No matching method found: add for class javax.swing.JPanel
08:34	AWizzArd	Lau_of_DK: I will try the .. syntax. But I still don't know if this is supported inside a (doto frame ...)
08:35	AWizzArd	Lau_of_DK: I can do it with one dot: (. frame (getContentPane) (add panel BorderLayout/CENTER)), and this also works.
08:36	AWizzArd	Here I don't have to use dots for calling getContentPane and add.
08:36	Lau_of_DK	k
08:36	AWizzArd	But the example under http://clojure.org/jvm_hosted maybe came from an earlier version of Clojure. There one did not have to use the dots inside a doto.
08:43	Lau_of_DK	Yes that was a recent change
08:44	AWizzArd	currently the dot syntax is not fully consistent i think
08:44	Lau_of_DK	AWizzArd: I dont know what you arrived at, but it can be done like this (doto frame getContentPane (.add panel BorderLayout/CENTER)) I think
08:45	Lau_of_DK	I think its consitent in code, but not in docs
08:46	rhickey	doto is about doing a set of actions to the same object, that's not what is happening here
08:46	AWizzArd	I mean: (. frame (getContentPane) (add panel BorderLayout/CENTER)) vs (.add (.getContentPane frame) ...) in the first version there is a dot, a space and then the object follows. Now function calls don't need to be prefixed by a dot.
08:47	rhickey	(. frame (getContentPane) (add panel BorderLayout/CENTER)) is not right, you need (..
08:48	AWizzArd	well, this currently works for me, without ..
08:48	AWizzArd	or was this recently changed? I have a clojure.jar from early December
08:49	duck1123	AWizzArd: it was some time last month I think
08:50	duck1123	svn rev 1111
08:50	clojurebot	svn rev 1111; enhanced doto now supports functions as well as methods !! Note - breaking change - you must now use .method instead of just method: (def frame (doto (new JFrame) (add panel) pack show)) becomes: (def frame (doto (new JFrame) (.add panel) .pack .show))
08:53	lisppaste8	AWizzArd pasted "dot syntax" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71905
08:53	AWizzArd	That works for me
08:55	duck1123	what happens if you put a dot in front of add?
08:55	duck1123	other than that, it looks good to me.
08:56	AWizzArd	it still works
08:56	AWizzArd	that is what I mean with consistency
08:57	rhickey	AWizzArd: it doesn't work, it is wrong as I said, you have to use ..
08:58	rhickey	if you use . and supply extra args they are ignored
08:58	AWizzArd	Well, here I see that it works in the sense that the window appears.
08:58	rhickey	user=> (. "foo" (length) (print 42))
08:58	rhickey	3
08:58	AWizzArd	As soon I begin with .. it does not work anymore: No matching method found: add for class javax.swing.JPanel
08:59	lisppaste8	rhickey annotated #71905 with "dot options" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71905#1
09:00	AWizzArd	I will try -> now
09:01	AWizzArd	No, strangely it works only when I have what I pasted above.
09:01	rhickey	AWizzArd: your code is broken in other ways too,
09:01	AWizzArd	swing wise you mean?
09:01	rhickey	read the Java docs and make sure that's what you are doing - you are trying to add a layout to a panel
09:02	rhickey	if you are confused by the syntax, do only one step at a time
09:02	AWizzArd	I will update my clojure.jar and see if that brings any changes.
09:02	rhickey	AWizzArd: you just have bugs
09:03	rhickey	panel (new BoxLayout (new JPanel) BoxLayout/X_AXIS) is wrong
09:04	rhickey	in that panel is the layout itself
09:05	AWizzArd	Okay I see. Well, I just started looking into Swing and just play with it.
09:05	blackdog	AWizzArd, have a look at miglayout to simplify your life
09:05	blackdog	well your code anyway :)
09:06	AWizzArd	Is there a way to do guis under Java with something corresponding to what is html to the webbrowser?
09:06	blackdog	AWizzArd, will be soon
09:06	blackdog	http://weblogs.java.net/blog/alex2d/archive/2008/12/jwebpane_projec.html
09:06	blackdog	can't wait for that
09:07	AWizzArd	Well, in that case one could simply let the designer do the gui. He knows it 100x better anywa.
09:07	AWizzArd	+y
09:08	AWizzArd	blackdog: is that only for FX applications? Or can it be used without WebKit, inside stand-alone Clojure apps?
09:08	blackdog	it will be standalone i think, general use that is
09:09	blackdog	it embeds webkit
09:09	blackdog	can't use without
09:09	AWizzArd	blackdog: btw, do you know if it is possible to write JavaFX applications exclusively by using Clojure? Or will one have to write JavaFX Script at some point to make it possible?
09:09	blackdog	ah, well i think someone needs to do a comparable api
09:09	blackdog	mainly javafx uses the scengraph stuff
09:10	blackdog	so that is open for anyone to get into
09:10	duck1123	JavaFX looked cool, but it looks like you need to jump through a few hoops to get it working with linux
09:10	blackdog	so a similar api in clojure would probably be very easy
09:12	AWizzArd	duck1123: that doesn't matter too much, because in 1-4 months it will work under Linux. 2010 it will seem as if it never were different.
09:12	AWizzArd	Clojure does not run on mobile phones yet. But noone will care about it anymore in 1-2 years.
09:12	AWizzArd	(because then it most likely will)
09:12	blackdog	duck1123, http://silveiraneto.net/2008/12/06/javafx-sdk-10-on-linux/
09:13	duck1123	right. I'm not saying it will be a major problem. I'm just saying it annoyed me when I went to check it out after it was mentioned the other day
09:13	AWizzArd	Yes, same here seufz
09:14	duck1123	blackdog: ok, that one is easier. The one I saw involved mounting the mac package
09:21	AWizzArd	rhickey: does http://clojure.org/jvm_hosted need an update? (as there are no dots before the method calls)
09:23	rhickey	AWizzArd: the docs correspond to the release
09:24	AWizzArd	and the api to the svn?
09:38	cemerick	does proxy creation still use reflection in svn head?
09:43	rhickey	cemerick: no
09:43	rhickey	(macroexpand '(proxy [Object] []))
09:43	duck1123	Is it possible to use clojure to gen-class a completely plain class. (without all the dynamic stuff that allows you to change the code without recompiling)
09:44	duck1123	I know it's like having a swiss army knife and throwing it all out for the little plastic toothpick, but some might have a use for it
09:45	rhickey	duck1123: what advantage would that have over Java, once you had to add all the goop to specify types, access specifiers etc? Java with parens
09:45	cemerick	I can't say I knew what (proxy [Object] []) expanded into before, but that's very good to know.
09:45	cemerick	I think we might move our codebase to some svn head shortly
09:46	duck1123	IDK, I'm still fighting Tomcat, and I'm just rying to reduce this down to the most basic level to figure out what's going on
09:46	AWizzArd	duck1123: but in Jetty you made it work, right?
09:46	rhickey	cemerick: it called construct-proxy, which was and still is reflective
09:46	duck1123	oh yeah, It works in Jetty no problem
09:46	rhickey	duck1123: clojure classes work fine in tomcat
09:47	AWizzArd	duck1123: but you also had to do something special to make it work in Jetty?
09:47	rhickey	where is clojure.jar in you tomcat setup
09:47	rhickey	?
09:47	AWizzArd	I know at least that Clojure-classes+Jetty+Rife can't be combined easily. Chouser and I tried it for some time, but there were other hurdles.
09:48	duck1123	It's in webapps/{projectname}/WEB-INF/lib
09:48	rhickey	rife is a completely different thing, runtime bytecode modification
09:48	rhickey	duck1123: and you've tried a simple hello world servlet?
09:49	duck1123	That's what I'm using. It just spit's out a basic html hello world page using strings
09:49	AWizzArd	rhickey: Rifes author said that the bytecode transformation happens transparently. So that should not be the problem.
09:50	duck1123	http://paste.lisp.org/display/71768#2
09:52	duck1123	I found a test suite that tests servlets, but I have a feeling that since Jetty works, it's going to say it's fine
09:53	Chouser-away	AWizzArd: Rife may yet be a (relatively) simple classloader thing, that's just an area I don't know much about.
09:54	AWizzArd	same here
09:55	duck1123	I'm tempted to do like Webjure does and cheat by writing Java code to define the servlet, but I really don't see any reason why this shouldn't work
09:56	rhickey	duck1123: what's your xml like?
09:57	lisppaste8	duck1123 annotated #71768 with "Web.xml that goes with this" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71768#3
09:59	duck1123	I have a java version (Servlet2) that works fine when I change the servlet-class, but as it is I only get 404
10:17	AWizzArd	When I have a Java method foo which takes an array of strings as argument, can I then simply pass in Clojures vectors?
10:18	AWizzArd	(foo ["a" "b" "c"]) vs. String[] bar = {"a", "b", "c"}; obj.foo(bar);
10:21	Chousuke	AWizzArd: (.foo obj (to-array vec-of-args)) or something should work.
10:23	Chousuke	or into-array if you need to specify the type
10:26	AWizzArd	Is there a gui builder that works nicely together with Clojure code?
10:27	AWizzArd	Swing is by far too complex, with it's containers inside containers, that all need to be handled specifically, depending on if their layouts come from awt or swing.
10:47	rhickey	duck1123: your servlet (with only different names) works fine for me on Tomcat 6.0.18
10:47	RSchulz	The Groovy folks have a DSL for building Swing GUIs. There might be some ideas there for a Clojure counterpart.
10:57	duck1123	hmm... perhaps I need to get the latest version. I'm using Tomcat 5.5 (only one in Debian apt)
10:59	rhickey	I took out load-on-startup - it created an error on startup, but didn't prevent from working
10:59	rhickey	how are you trying to invoke the servlet?
11:02	duck1123	http://localhost:8180/mycyclopedia/
11:02	duck1123	where 8180 is the port it was running on
11:03	jkantz	I've been trying out http://www.zentus.com/sqlitejdbc/ from within clojure
11:03	jkantz	but I'm running into a problem where putting a statement in a closure closes it
11:03	rhickey	duck1123: do you see the app in tomcat manager?
11:03	lisppaste8	jkantz pasted "sqlite3 inserts" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71914
11:04	cemerick	AWizzArd: Our general approach right now is to use netbeans' matisse to design UI's, and have everything but the top level of event handling, etc., be handled by clojure fns we call into from the UI.
11:05	duck1123	rhickey: yeah, it was showing up there just fine
11:05	AWizzArd	cemerick: okay, so I will checkout netbeans in a few days
11:05	cemerick	IMO, building UIs without a visual designer is a disaster waiting to happen. Every UI framework is far too complicated to hand-code.
11:06	lisppaste8	jkantz annotated #71914 with "2 throws the error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71914#1
11:10	RSchulz	cemerick: I think there's a subset of uses, very stylized dialogs, e.g., that are amenable to a simple description language.
11:12	cemerick	RSchulz: sure, but if you're talking about generalized UI design, that description language would inevitably degenerate into a direct wrapper around whatever widget lib you happen to use.
11:12	AWizzArd	cemerick: with html it works out pretty well
11:13	cemerick	AWizzArd: wow, really? 9.9
11:13	AWizzArd	If I could just write an xml file, similar to html or whatever, but adopted to swing, and then just call (.loadUI "/path/gui.xml") and be done, then that might be nicer ;-)
11:14	RSchulz	cemerick: Sure. I was asking a couple of days ago about a Clojure counterpart for MPW's commander, which was just a DSL for parameter-gathering dialog boxes used to invoke CLIs for the CLI-phobic.
11:14	RSchulz	I still think that's appropriate (and something I could use).
11:15	cemerick	It seems that HTML/XHTML/css/js is a prime example of the inherent complexity of UI programming.
11:16	cemerick	RSchulz: I'm not familiar with commander, but that sounds like a very narrow scope. A perfectly reasonable place to use a data-driven UI generation approach, but I don't think that's generalizable.
11:17	RSchulz	Generalizable? Surely not. But within its bounds, a productivity win, I'd say.
11:17	RSchulz	cemerick: Do you do a lot of full-blown Java / Swing / etc. GUIs?
11:17	RSchulz	GUIs aren't my thing.
11:18	cemerick	RSchulz: It's by no means my main thing. But I've been steeped in that for the past few months.
11:18	RSchulz	What do you think of that JavaFX thing? Good?
11:19	RSchulz	For my work, BBIs are the thing, I believe.
11:20	cemerick	RSchulz: I poked at the "launch" site a little. I've not been impressed with javafx since it was originally "announced" as an afterthought reaction to AIR and silverlight.
11:20	RSchulz	AIR is the follow-on to Adobe Flex?
11:22	cemerick	I think they're using another name for it now, but AIR is Flex, transparently deployable as a RIA (i.e. embedded in a browser) or as a thick-client, offline app.
11:23	cemerick	I'm actually hopeful about the new-style applets available in java6-update10. It includes all of the guts that javafx needs (which are actually decent, technically), as well as a lot of deployment simplifications that have always made applets nigh-useless IMO.
11:25	cemerick	RSchulz: BBIs?
11:26	RSchulz	I'm pushing the term (as far as I know, of my coinage): Browser-Based Interface
11:26	RSchulz	Web 2.0 stuff. AJAX; what have you.
11:26	cemerick	ah. "RIA" will be a formidable competitor.
11:27	RSchulz	I'll be happy when all the distinctions are erased and the programming models are easy in every deployment mode.
11:27	RSchulz	But I won't be holding my breath.
11:30	AWizzArd	cemerick: have you tried NetBeans gui builder, together with Enclojure already?
11:31	cemerick	AWizzArd: Using it now, although enclojure doesn't have anything to do with it, short of providing the clojure programming niceties.
11:31	cemerick	matisse generates java, period.
11:32	AWizzArd	and how to you add event listeners for button clicks? In Clojure?
11:34	cemerick	AWizzArd: No, the top layer of the UI is all Java...and really, at least in my case, there's very little actual code there. When I need to hook into the real guts of the app (to put together a visualization to be drawn in the UI, for example), then I call into clojure.
11:34	cemerick	I also have a couple of controller interfaces that call back into API points I've set up in the UI so I can drive certain parts of it from the clojure side.
11:35	AWizzArd	So when you add a button, you will write a clojure function foo and call it in the java event handler?
11:36	cemerick	only if the action to be performed is complicated enough, or requires interaction with APIs implemented in clojure.
11:36	AWizzArd	Otherwise you write it in Java?
11:36	cemerick	trying to be all-clojure top to bottom at the moment is going to require a lot of work that doesn't net one any reward, IMO
11:37	cemerick	sure -- matisse takes care of the vast, vast majority of the real work, so the amount of java that needs to be written for simple event handlers and such is really miniscule
11:37	AWizzArd	Can Mantisse be modified to output Clojure code?
11:38	RSchulz	SMOP
11:38	cemerick	maybe :-) Some people are fiddling with it to make it emit JRuby, so it's possible in concept, I suppose.
11:38	cemerick	I don't see what one would gain from that in practical terms, though.
11:39	AWizzArd	And let's say your event handler is complex enough, so that you will want to write a Clojure function which you then want to call in that handler. Does this mean that you have to wrap your Clojure function inside a (gen-class ..) to make it callable from Java?
11:39	AWizzArd	I thought the practical terms are that you never need to write even one line of Java code.
11:40	cemerick	AWizzArd: no, it's not that difficult -- you just do RT.var("namespace", "fn-name").invoke(blah) (assuming the clojure is already loaded)
11:40	AWizzArd	You make a button and then simply say: (add-on-click-handler my-button (fn [x y mouse-button] ...))
11:41	cemerick	sure, that's certainly doable, but not with the tools the way they're set up now. You'll have to roll your own UI design environment, or UI description language, or modify matisse or some other toolset to get there.
11:41	AWizzArd	So, there is still a long way for Enclojure to go :-)
11:41	cemerick	purging Java isn't big on my to-do list. I'll live if my time in Java is cut to 10% or something.
11:42	cemerick	I don't think the enclojure guys have said anything about tackling UI design.
11:42	AWizzArd	It's maybe okay for people who actually know Java...
11:42	AWizzArd	Otherwise going down to 0% should be the goal.
11:43	cemerick	clojure runs on the jvm, so short of very isolated research purposes, it'll be tough to not touch java sometimes.
11:57	Chousuke	AWizzArd: you can't avoid java, but a lot of it can be hidden with functions and macros and some proxying :)
11:57	AWizzArd	Why do you think that Java can't be avoided?
11:57	AWizzArd	Maybe for doing some low level (assembler-like) optimizations Java could come in handy.
11:57	Chousuke	because that's not what clojure is trying to do.
11:58	AWizzArd	Chousuke: do you have some typical things in mind where one would have to write .java code for a project that could not be written in .clj?
12:00	Chousuke	hm, not really.
12:00	AWizzArd	It would mean that there exists methods in Java that can't be called from within Clojure. Or that one wants to work in a Java project that makes use of annotations which can't be generated in Clojure at the moment.
12:01	achim_p	hi all!
12:01	AWizzArd	I understand that cemerick knows Java and does not feel much pain to write it from time to time. He just wants to do it less often, so for him the Mantisse+Java+Clojure combination works.
12:01	AWizzArd	I however come from Common Lisp, and I didn't do it to write more Java than I did in the past (0% that is g).
12:02	Chousuke	hm
12:02	achim_p	has it always been the case that you weren't allowed to await an agent from within an agent action?
12:02	lisppaste8	achim_p pasted "awaiting awaiting awaiting" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71922
12:02	Chousuke	it's pretty hard to avoid using java if you use libraries designed to be used from java. clojure has a disadvantage.
12:02	cemerick	AWizzArd: I think an all-clojure UI framework would be very, very warmly welcomed, including by me. Such a beast just doesn't exist (yet?).
12:03	Chouser	achim_p: I think it's always been that way, yes.
12:03	AWizzArd	I just don't know swing very well. If I did I could write a wrapper in Clojure that reads xml or s-expression files and could generate UIs from that. It would not be a declerative language so to speak.
12:03	cemerick	Chousuke: clojure's java interop is what makes it practical, IMO
12:03	Chousuke	cemerick: yeah.
12:04	AWizzArd	cemerick: yes, I guess in 3-5 years such a thing could exist, if Clojure can attract some 10k programmers.
12:04	Chouser	achim_p: the problem is that sends from inside an agent are held until the agent is complete. await doesn't make sense.
12:04	cemerick	AWizzArd: shrug Swing is essentially the only option in Java land w.r.t. UIs (short of SWT, which I'll rudely ignore :-) )
12:05	cemerick	There may very well be a declarative swing layout library out there already that you could wrap with clojure...?
12:05	Chousuke	AWizzArd: Did you look at QtJambi? there were some examples some time ago that used a QT GUI builder and resource files and no java (though the API obviously isn't very clojurey either)
12:05	Chouser	Lots of people seem to be playing with Clojure and Qt/Jambi
12:05	Chouser	...which has a nice graphical GUI editor, if you're into that sort of thing.
12:05	AWizzArd	cemerick: what about this: you make a gui with Mantisse, put it into a single .class file and load that from Clojure. There you make an instance of it which should show the gui. Then you get all objects that need event handlers and add them in Clojure.
12:06	Chousuke	that could work.
12:06	duck1123	rhickey: I installed Tomcat6, deployed my app and it ran without a hitch
12:06	achim_p	Chouser: oh, i didn't realize they were. thanks for the pointer!
12:06	walters	cemerick: i use GTK+ through bindings I wrote, works great
12:06	walters	(and Clutter)
12:07	AWizzArd	Chouser: but what does the qt gui builder produce? Will it allow me to click together my gui and then do the rest in Clojure? Such as onClick or onKeyPress handlers, etc?
12:07	Chouser	AWizzArd: yes
12:07	cemerick	AWizzArd: certainly doable. There's a lot of manual bookkeeping there, but if avoiding Java is your priority, then it just might work.
12:07	Chouser	the qt gui builder produces .xml
12:07	AWizzArd	And why isn't that possible with NetBeans+Mantisse+Swing?
12:07	AWizzArd	I see
12:07	Chousuke	AWizzArd: why wouldn
12:07	Chousuke	wouldn't it be?
12:07	cemerick	the same degree of bookkeeping would be necessary with Qt, I presume
12:07	Chouser	in clojure you can load the .xml, and then hook up wantever signal/slots you want.
12:07	Chousuke	I don
12:07	Chousuke	gaH
12:08	AWizzArd	So the qt gui builder basically does what I asked for. It produces something comparable to .html files.
12:08	Chouser	duck1123: wow, just like that?
12:08	cemerick	walters: that's interesting. Can't say I'd want to learn yet another widget toolkit, though. :-)
12:08	AWizzArd	While the Mantisse builder produces .java code.
12:08	Chousuke	code generation ;(
12:08	duck1123	Chouser: just like that... Obviously there's something wrong with 5.5 + clojure
12:08	RSchulz	Not to harp on spelling / typos, but it's "Matisse," right?
12:08	walters	cemerick: http://live.gnome.org/GObjectIntrospection/ if you're interested
12:09	cemerick	RSchulz: yes
12:09	walters	cemerick: (more specifically http://live.gnome.org/JGIR )
12:09	cemerick	walters: ah, it's JNA-based?
12:09	duck1123	Now I just need to figure out how to get a repl working with this so I can hack at some live code
12:09	walters	right now yeah
12:10	walters	though i am about on the edge of writing something more lowlevel and efficient
12:10	cemerick	walters: I was going to say, JNA uses reflection for fn invocation, which would be troublesome depending on how much you're pushing through the keyhole.
12:10	walters	right
12:11	walters	the way it does structs and unions is also really bad (implementation wise)
12:14	cemerick	AWizzArd: a couple of declarative swing libraries you might be able to wrap: http://www.swixml.org/ http://jacekfurmankiewicz.blogspot.com/2008/06/java-swingbuilder-finally-01-beta.html
12:18	cemerick	AWizzArd: you could also take a look at JWebPane, which might be just the ticket based on the 2.5 blog posts I've read about it ;-)
12:32	RSchulz	clojurebot: todo?
12:32	clojurebot	todo is http://richhickey.backpackit.com/pub/1597914
12:34	RSchulz	Is there a technical reason why special forms don't have doc strings?
12:37	Chouser	RSchulz: where would they be stored?
12:38	RSchulz	I don't know. Where are other doc strings stored?
12:38	Chouser	in the metadata of the var
12:38	Chouser	but special forms don't have vars
12:38	RSchulz	It seems plausible that whatever Java constructs embody the run-time definition of special forms could be the locus of a doc string, right?
12:40	RSchulz	Surely doc could have special-case code for speical forms that looked in some place other than the (non-existent) Var for special form document strings.
12:46	rhickey	RSchulz: there are only a handful of special forms - they have long descriptions that really need to be read before using Clojure
12:46	RSchulz	OK. But something synoptic still seems useful for a (doc) result?
12:54	cemerick	rhickey: I'm curious: why doesn't RT.toArray produce results for IPersistentCollections? It seems like the class-is-array block can be directly used for IPC's as well.
12:56	rhickey	cemerick: it used to be that Collection covered all IPCs
12:56	rhickey	now all but maps
13:05	abrooks	In a flourish of ignorance -- what sorts of things would break if we defined vars for builtins to hold their docstring?
13:05	abrooks	Ala: (def #^{:doc "More fn* than you can imagine"} fn* "fn* is builtin")
13:06	rhickey	what is the purpose of these docstrings? are people forgetting how fn/let/do work?
13:07	RSchulz	No offense, but you're pretty deep inside Clojure to understand a beginner's mindset...
13:07	abrooks	rhickey: If you can tell a new user (doc foo) will tell you about foo, they're going to be surprised when that thing that they saw in the example (and perhaps even read about once before) doesn't have a doc string.
13:08	RSchulz	Well, to be fair, it refers you to the Web documentation.
13:08	rhickey	But I do remember learning CL, and I never wanted doc strings for defun or let, always looked in documentation, vs quickie arg lookup for other things
13:13	abrooks	rhickey: You're a long time lisper -- beginners don't remember which forms are special and which are not. The (a) beauty of lisp is that the both appear the same.
13:13	zakwilson	When I first started with Clojure, the fact that some arguments that would be lists in most lisps are vectors bit me several times.
13:14	zakwilson	And "Don't know how to create ISeq from Symbol" didn't help.
13:14	abrooks	rhickey: I recognize special formsm when I see them but I could not rattle off a list off the top of my head.
13:15	abrooks	RSchulz: Oh, right. It does send you to the web docs.
13:15	abrooks	RSchulz: Not so useful if you're at a REPL and offline without the web docs, though.
13:16	abrooks	Also, that link will be broken when the website changes and someone's still running an older version of Clojure.
13:18	RSchulz	My guess is that clojure.org will be the Clojure Web site as long as Clojure is alive.
13:19	alphazero	Hi all! Does anyone know what is the baseline target jre for clojure? (1.1, 1.3, etc.)?
13:20	Chousuke	1.5
13:20	cemerick	rhickey: I asked, because I have a couple of IPC implementations, and I always forget to wrap them in seq in order to use them with sort, etc.
13:20	whidden	Is there an equivalent function in clojure of CL's 'find-all-symbols ?
13:22	alphazero	Chousuke: thanks! then it would be nice if a shutdownHook was added to repl.java.
13:22	rhickey	cemerick: but you don't want to implement Collection?
13:25	cemerick	rhickey: They implement Iterable, but that's as far as I want to go. Java-land API users simply don't get the notion of implementing only the read portions of Collection (despite the interface's contract).
13:28	Chousuke	alphazero: the repl is a clojure function. do you need to have the shutdown hook in the java code? maybe you could add it from clojure :/
13:29	abrooks	whidden: all-ns will show you all namespaces. ns-map (and in varying slices: ns-aliases, ns-imports, ns-interns, ns-publics and ns-refers) will show you what's in a given namespace.
13:30	whidden	abrooks: thanks...just what i needed!
13:30	alphazero	chousuke: hah! am a Java old timer but very (very) new to lisp and clojure. (rhickey: didn't see you here earlier. Great stuff! Thanks for clojure.)
13:32	alphazero	.. could give you the patch for java if you want. (I didn't like how it just dies after ctl-c so added a goodbye msg to mine, but wasn't sure if rhickey wanted to be backwards compatible with pre 1.3 jvms.)
13:37	Chousuke	alphazero: You want something like this? (.addShutdownHook (Runtime/getRuntime) (Thread. (fn [] (println "Goodbye World!"))))
13:38	lisppaste8	alphazero pasted "shutdown hook for Repl.java" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71931
13:39	Chousuke	oh, I should've used #(println "Goodbye world") ;P
13:40	RSchulz	Chousuke: Since Clojure functions imlement Callable and Runnable, couldn't you skip the (Thread ...) part?
13:40	alphazero	Chousuke: yep, thanks for the clojure version.
13:40	alphazero	? what's the diff? I pasted yours and it worked.
13:41	RSchulz	The #(...) notation is just more concise, in situations where it's applicable.
13:42	alphazero	RSchulz: thanks.
13:43	RSchulz	Perhaps (doc ...) deserves to be a multimethod? Then 3rd-party add-ons could extend it in interesting ways. And the overhead of multimethod dispatch wouldn't be a problem in that case.
13:46	alphazero	Chousuke: tried (.addShutdownHook (Runtime/getRuntime) (Thread. (#(println "Goodbye World!")))) and it immediately executes.
13:47	alphazero	.. and it doesn't actually run on shutdown. can someone explain why please?
13:47	Chousuke	alphazero: you have an extra pair of parentheses
13:48	Chousuke	#(println "foo") returns a function (#(println foo)) runs a function :)
13:48	alphazero	Chousuke: Aha! the mysteries of lisp. you are right.
13:48	Chousuke	RSchulz: .addShutdownHook wants a Thread
13:49	RSchulz	That's rude of it.
13:49	RSchulz	It should be satisfied with a Runnable...
13:50	Chousuke	alphazero: anyway, #(foo bar) is just a more concise way of saying (fn [] (foo bar)) :)
13:51	alphazero	Chousuke: thanks. Yep, RSchulz mentioned that earlier.
13:51	Chousuke	of course if you want a function with more than one expression you'll need to use fn. or #(do (foo) (bar)) :P
13:52	alphazero	a more general question: do you guys think clojure is a good platform for scripting bytecode engineering? (Specifically, can it do something like aspects without the pain of asm, etc.?)
13:53	Chousuke	you could implement aspect-oriented programming constructs in clojure I suppose.
13:55	alphazero	I ask, since multimethods seem to be an excellent way to write crosscut specs and coupled with ad-hoc taxonomies ...
13:55	Chousuke	I'm not that familiar with aspect oriented programming, so I can't really say anything about that.
13:56	duck1123	when using gen-class, the -init fn is essentially the constructor right? (with the exception that it must return a vector)
13:56	Chousuke	but for example, you could redefine defn to work in a way that wraps every defined function in a way that checks (from a global data structure, for instance) if there are any things to run before or after its execution.
13:58	alphazero	Chousuke: in a nutshell: you define pre- and -post ops for a signature pattern and apply it across class hierarchies. e.g.: you say whenever a method return void with params Foo, Object[] is called, first pass the args throw this -pre method and then after the actual method is done call this -post method. Its a very powerful mechanism.
13:59	alphazero	through
13:59	cemerick	rhickey: thinking about it a little more, to-array really should accept any IPC, in order for third-party IPC implementations to be peers to standard data structures.
13:59	cemerick	(IMO, of course ;-) )
14:02	Chousuke	alphazero: I think that should be doable, but would require a fair amount of trickery
14:03	alphazero	Chousuke: well, I was thinking wrapper functions would do it, but then, not sure how that would help with (existing) java classes. So question is: does the clojure import mechanism allow you to customize its classloader?
14:04	Chouser	duck1123: I think that's right, though I believe -init gets run before the object is created.
14:04	alphazero	because then you could script that
14:05	Chousuke	alphazero: you'll have to read the code and see how clojure imports stuff. I don't know :/
14:06	alphazero	Chousuke: will do, thanks. I have to step out for lunch but if anyone has an idea and posts it it is appreciated and I will read the logs. bye for now.
14:10	duck1123	every time I try to use an init, I get: Duplicate field name&signature in class file
14:12	duck1123	you know what, this class has a method named init... that's probably causing a problem
14:18	duck1123	ok, If I'm implementing an overloaded fn, do I have to provide implementations for both of them, or can I specify which one I'm doing?
14:27	Lau_of_DK	Good evening gents
14:27	duck1123	hello Lau_of_DK
14:28	Lau_of_DK	duck1123: Hows your projects coming along?
14:29	duck1123	actually, I upgraded to Tomcat 6, and like a miracle, it worked
14:30	Lau_of_DK	Wuhuu! :)
14:30	Lau_of_DK	What did?
14:30	duck1123	gen-classing a servlet and dropping it into tomcat
14:31	Lau_of_DK	Oh, from pure clojure?
14:31	duck1123	now I'm trying to get a repl put in there so I can modify the code
14:31	Lau_of_DK	Duck I dont know which country youre in, but Tomcat is very hot in Denmark atm
14:31	duck1123	yeah. My code was right, it's just something funky with Tomcat 5.5
14:31	Lau_of_DK	I'll remember that
14:32	duck1123	I'm in Michigan, USA
14:32	Lau_of_DK	JBoss server selling like hot bread there? :)
14:33	duck1123	I really wouldn't know.
14:36	Chouser	duck1123: there is a (still undocumented, I think) feature that lets you add arg types to your function name.
14:37	Chouser	duck1123: like (defn -foo-Integer-String ...) for an implementation of foo that takes 2 args of those types.
14:37	Chouser	duck1123: but I've never tried to use it, so that's about all I know.
14:39	duck1123	Chouser: thanks. What if it doesn't take any args? -init-Void?
14:40	Chouser	good guess. dunno. :-)
14:41	Chouser	try -init-void
14:41	Lau_of_DK	Hey Chouser
14:41	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: hey!
14:42	RSchulz	tomhickey, rhickey: Thanks a million for fixing up the API page. The underline thing is still happening for (ns ...) (only)
14:45	acieroid	is there a way to download the videos of clojure.blip.tv ?
14:47	danlarkin_	toward the bottom you can subscribe
14:48	Lau_of_DK	acieroid: Or change the type of video to .mov, then as I recall you get enough in the adresse line to pass it to wget
14:48	Lau_of_DK	Thats how I usually do it
14:49	acieroid	and how do I change it to .mov ?
14:49	Lau_of_DK	Hang on let me look
14:50	Lau_of_DK	In the top right corner, choose Episode Archive
14:50	Lau_of_DK	Then select the video you want to download
14:50	Lau_of_DK	Then when it starts playing, you have a dropdown box right below where you can choose .mov
14:51	acieroid	yeah ok
14:51	acieroid	thanks
14:52	Lau_of_DK	But looking at it now, I forgot how I modified the adress to become downloadable, but you can probably work it out
14:52	Lau_of_DK	:)
14:55	acieroid	hum
14:56	acieroid	I just found the flv in the firefox's cache
14:57	acieroid	Yeah, great, if I change the .flv to .mov, it works
14:57	acieroid	thanks
14:58	rhickey	acieroid: there's a Download Playing link at the bottom when playing from the episode directly
14:59	hiredman	rhickey: what are the odds of (show ...) or something like it showing up in clojure.core?
15:00	rhickey	hiredman: good, although it will likely be an enhanced inspect
15:00	gnuvince	rhickey: Do you have any upcoming speaking engagements?
15:01	hiredman	excellent
15:01	rhickey	gnuvince: QCon London and ILC Cambridge in March
15:01	gnuvince	Thank you.
15:07	mchurch	I have a design question re: Clojure.
15:08	mchurch	I'm starting to use it, and I like it, but why is it set up so that two primitives can be print/read equal and yet nonequal?
15:08	mchurch	e.g. (symbol "nil") is something that prints as nil but is not actually equal to nil
15:10	Chousuke	that's because it's not nil, it's a symbol that looks like nil when printed :)
15:10	rhickey	mchurch: there is print-dup, with more verity along with more verbosity.
15:11	mchurch	What's print-dup?
15:11	rhickey	nil is special, not read as a symbol as in CL due to its unification with Java null
15:11	mchurch	Clojure's great, but I really dislike the idea of ambiguous read/print syntax.
15:12	mchurch	Ah, this makes sense.
15:12	rhickey	well, printing the symbol nil and expecting to get a symbol when read is asking for trouble.
15:12	Lau_of_DK	mchurch: Does that really make much of a difference in the bigger picture of concurrency and functional programming?
15:12	rhickey	print-dup is a printing mode like print-readably, set with print-dup
15:12	mchurch	Yes. This is one of those pathological use cases that is unlikely to occur.
15:13	rhickey	print-readably has rough read/print equivalence, by data structure category, butif you look at CL, they just ended up with unreadble printed representations of so many things
15:14	rhickey	print-dup does track the specific types, so sorted sets come back sorted. print-readably is readable but bot type equivalent, but still useful for repl
15:15	rhickey	not type equivalent
15:15	mchurch	I'm writing some glue code for IPC between SBCL and Clojure, so I'm dealing with the question of how to unify the concepts of Nil/false in the "between language"
15:16	rhickey	mchurch: nil should be ok for IPC, as it is used similarly by Clojure, just isn't a symbol
15:16	rhickey	false is a different thing, not in CL
15:17	mchurch	Yeah. The "ambiguity" I was worried about is not an issue for me right now. I just wanted to know why it was done that way, because a lot of things that seem "wrong" turn out to make sense.
15:18	Chousuke	how does print-dup work? there's no docstring
15:18	rhickey	right now print-dup is used only by serialization during AOT compilation, will get doc'ed soon
15:19	rhickey	but it is used to serialize all constants, and they are read back with read, so print/read is important to me
15:19	mchurch	rhickey: Shall I assume you're Rich Hickey, the inventor of Clojure?
15:19	rhickey	Clojure just has a much richer type space than prior Lisps, so I ended up needing another level of 'readable'
15:20	rhickey	mchurch: yes
15:20	mchurch	Your talk at the JVM conference was great; I watched it on video last night.
15:20	rhickey	thanks, it was quite rushed, but fun
15:20	Chousuke	the java side certainly complicates things for read/print
15:21	Lau_of_DK	mchurch: Is that on blib?
15:22	mchurch	http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=392442
15:22	lisppaste8	rhickey pasted "print-dup in action" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71933
15:23	Lau_of_DK	Thanks alot
15:23	mchurch	That's cool.
15:24	mchurch	Mind if I ask (while I'm here) about the difference between let vs. bindings?
15:24	rhickey	those things read back precisely, but not as nice for the repl
15:25	mchurch	err, binding, sorry (I'm a 4-day-old newb to Clojure)
15:25	rhickey	let is for lexical locals, binding is for thread-specific dynamic binding of global vars
15:25	rhickey	mchurch: you know CL?
15:26	mchurch	CL: 3 months old.
15:26	mchurch	Plus some exposure to Scheme in college.
15:26	rhickey	ok, well CL does both kinds of binding in let, Clojure breaks them apart
15:26	rhickey	binding ~~ Scheme fluid-let
15:27	rhickey	let is the primary construct, binding is pretty special-purpose
15:27	mchurch	This makes sense.
15:28	mchurch	So binding is used for constructs like (let ((read-eval nil)) ... ).
15:28	rhickey	mchurch: right, dynamic vars
15:28	mchurch	Although that's a bad example, since (I believe) Clojure's reader is side-effect free.
15:29	rhickey	binding out, print-dup etc
15:29	rhickey	Clojure jobs! - http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/9bcd9c42346206fa
15:30	danlarkin_	drools
15:30	abrooks	Awesome.
15:32	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: Can we expect some improvements on the performance characteristics of the STM that Mr. Click touched upon in his presentation? I ask, because he gave the impression that this was something that had been around for 15 years with little or no improvement
15:32	Lau_of_DK	argh
15:34	Lau_of_DK	duck1123: start your own business? :)
15:35	danlarkin_	duck1123: wanna go into business together? I'm not moving to Michigan though...
15:36	RSchulz	zakwilson: Elaborate, please!
15:36	duck1123	I did, however, put Clojure on my resume on dice
15:37	Lau_of_DK	duck1123: You only need 1 good contract to carry yourself for 2� - 3 months :)
15:37	zakwilson	When I'm not writing software, I'm a lighting designer for a band.
15:37	zakwilson	Stage lighting controlers use profiles to determine how to control specific types of lights. All of them use different file formats.
15:38	zakwilson	There is no central place to get such profiles, and people like me often end up making half-complete profiles on the fly while setting up for a show because there's no profile for a specific light/controller combination.
15:38	cemerick	is there something along the lines of doseq that also binds the current index of the item in seq being enumerated? Something more concise than using (interleave seq (iterate inc )), preferably...
15:39	mchurch	rhickey: Thank you for taking the time to reply to me about Clojure. I'm really glad Clojure exists; it's a cool language.
15:39	zakwilson	I'm thinking profit could be made from a profile format that can be converted to most controllers on the fly.
15:40	Chouser	cemerick: clojure.contrib.seq-utils/indexed
15:40	zakwilson	Either by charging for access or by running ads on a website.
15:41	Chouser	cemerick: (doseq [[i foo] (indexed foos)] ...)
15:41	Lau_of_DK	Does anybody know if we can expect some improvements on the performance
15:41	Lau_of_DK	characteristics of the STM that Mr. Click touched upon in his
15:41	Lau_of_DK	presentation? I ask, because he gave the impression that this was
15:41	Lau_of_DK	something that had been around for 15 years with little or no
15:41	Lau_of_DK	improvement
15:41	Lau_of_DK	:)
15:41	cemerick	Chouser: thanks much
15:42	blackdog	Lau_of_DK, i think his impression after doing the clojure tsp that is was going in the right direction
15:42	blackdog	if you readthe blog entry
15:42	zakwilson	I'm also contemplating writing lighting control software, as I think everything currently on the market has obvious flaws. Professional lighting controllers are very expensive, and a sucessful product has a great deal of potential for profit.
15:42	Lau_of_DK	blackdog: Thats just not very concrete
15:43	RSchulz	I wonder how easily STM-based systems (such as Clojure) would re-target to hardware TM?
15:44	Lau_of_DK	Mr. Schulz, you certainly do
15:45	RSchulz	Eh? I do what?
15:46	Lau_of_DK	You wonder...
15:46	RSchulz	Yes... That's why I asked about it...
15:47	Lau_of_DK	I know. I was just confirming that fact. I cant be helpful 100% of the time you know
15:47	hoeck	zakwilson: cool
15:48	zakwilson	I'm actually stuck on something related to the first project, if anybody has some advice on reverse-engineering a file format.
15:57	AWizzArd	RSchulz: do you have your test for find-factors still available? I mean, do you remember for which number it produced a wrong result?
15:57	RSchulz	I think I can dig it up in my terminal back-scroll (it's set to 5,000 lines, and I have many tabs open, for different purposes).
15:57	RSchulz	Just a sec...
15:57	AWizzArd	thanks :-)
15:57	AWizzArd	5k is not bad g
15:58	holmak	recur only goes back to fn's and loops, right? Not lets or anything strange?
15:58	RSchulz	If not, it'll be in the channel logs. Could someone remind me of the URL of those logs?
15:59	AWizzArd	holmak: yes
15:59	AWizzArd	but also to defn's (which are fn's under the hood)
15:59	RSchulz	AWizzArd: Here it is: 43587438757
16:00	AWizzArd	thanks
16:00	RSchulz	factor 43587438757
16:00	RSchulz	43587438757: 21517 2025721
16:00	RSchulz	The various "find-factor" functions only gave the first factor.
16:00	AWizzArd	yes
16:01	lisppaste8	holmak pasted "recur problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71936
16:02	holmak	I'm having a strange problem...
16:02	holmak	I'm getting an error that recur should be getting one arg, not two.
16:03	hiredman	uh
16:03	hiredman	I don't think recur will work there
16:03	hiredman	in a lazy-cons
16:03	holmak	That could be it, but I'm not getting a "not in tail position" error
16:03	hiredman	well
16:04	hiredman	it is not in the tail position (I think) but that is not the problem
16:04	hiredman	it is not being called in the context of that function
16:04	holmak	Ah
16:04	hiredman	because lazy-cons is, well, lazy
16:05	hiredman	you should be ok calling chop again there
16:05	hoeck	holmak: lazy-cons is a macro, the recur gets wrapped in a function with one arg
16:06	holmak	I was wondering where the fn was coming from. Serves me right for trying to feed macros strange things...
16:07	hoeck	holmak: to me, your chop function looks like clojure.core/partition
16:08	holmak	I was trying to find a good standard library function to do what I wanted, but couldn't -- I'll take a look at partition.
16:09	holmak	Aha, wonderful. partition is what I wanted.
16:09	hoeck	yeah, did that too until I discovered partition :)
16:10	holmak	It can be hard to find the right standard function for things.
16:10	holmak	There's really a lot of things a person might want to do to a sequence.
16:12	holmak	Anyway, thanks for the help.
16:13	hoeck	takes some time to learn them, I often take a look at clojure.org sequences docs
16:29	lisppaste8	holmak pasted "partition by different sizes" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71941
16:30	holmak	So ^^^ was my final solution, since I had to partition according by different sizes.
16:33	holmak	s/partition according by/partition by/
16:52	Lau_of_DK	holmak: Looks good :)
16:53	holmak	Thanks :D I don't know if it would be generally useful, but I happened to need it.
16:53	Lau_of_DK	In my experience helpers like that always come in handy sooner or later, so I tug them all away in my utility lib :)
16:53	Lau_of_DK	s/tug/tuck
17:27	aperotte	hi, does anyone know how to print the stack trace?
17:27	blackdog	(.printStackTrace e) or some such
17:27	rhickey	*e
17:27	aperotte	thanks!
17:30	blackdog	well that's shorter :P you can tell who the master is
17:31	aperotte	blackdog: I think he meant *e instead of just e ... at least that's what worked for me
17:31	rhickey	right
17:31	blackdog	yep
17:34	aperotte	Am I right in thinking that the only way to expose protected members is through gen-class and AOT compilation?
17:34	rhickey	aperotte: yes
17:34	aperotte	rhickey: ok, thanks
17:48	rafting	How can I call Clojure-code from Java?
17:49	Chouser	Wide-open REPL type thing, or calling into a specific interface?
17:49	rhickey	rafting: Var someFn = RT.var("some.ns","some-fn"); someFn.invoke(someargs);
17:52	rafting	and the cloure-code shuld be compild to .class or i can call .clj-files?
17:54	rhickey	rafting: either, just put it in the classpath, you can require it by:
17:55	rhickey	Var require = RT.var("clojure.core","require"); require.invoke(Symbol.intern("my.ns"));
17:55	rhickey	etc
17:59	clojurebot	svn rev 1150; releaxed namespace requirement for derives in private hierarchy, patch from J. McConnell
18:01	rafting	how do i do repeatedly for a function with arguments?
18:01	aperotte	I don't know if this is my problem or a bug but here's what happened. I am extending an abstract class with :gen-class. There is one method that must be implemented and it shouldn't take any arguments. However, I get a clojure.lang.AFn.throwArity unless I define the method with [& args] instead of [].
18:02	hiredman	rafting: wrap it? #()
18:02	hiredman	aperotte: explicit "this" argument
18:02	aperotte	ohhh
18:02	blackdog	rafting, apply?
18:03	aperotte	hiredman: thanks
18:03	hiredman	(doc repeatedly)
18:03	clojurebot	Takes a function of no args, presumably with side effects, and returns an infinite lazy sequence of calls to it; arglists ([f])
18:04	rafting	hiredman: yes i wrap it but i dont want to :)
18:04	hiredman	rafting: what?
18:05	hiredman	then write a macro to wrap it for you
18:05	RSchulz	hiredman: Have considered a variant of clojurebot that would allow evaluation of Clojure forms? It would be risky if not restricted (say, no load calls) and would probably have to self-limit the amount of computation and I/O fron any given form evaluated, but it could be great to have for helping an experimenting here.
18:06	hiredman	RSchulz: I think chouser suggested I look at java's sandboxing capabilities
18:07	hiredman	(+ 1 5)
18:07	clojurebot	suffusion of yellow
18:07	RSchulz	I doubt it would be trivial to do well, but it could be interesting and useful.
18:07	RSchulz	(shhh!)
18:07	RSchulz	I see it's selective about what it tries to eval.
18:08	hiredman	yes
18:08	RSchulz	A bot with discretion...
18:08	cemerick	You should be able to sandbox clojure without a hitch, especially now that namespaces and fn's clearly correspond to classes now.
18:09	hiredman	oh, this looks familar
18:09	hiredman	I must have googled "java sandboxing" before
18:09	cemerick	even easier would be to lock off particular sections of RT.
18:09	RSchulz	Do Java's sandboxing mechanism extend to resource consumption limitation?
18:09	cemerick	not sure about that, maybe
18:09	hiredman	doing anything that is really involved in java makes me want to bak things
18:09	hiredman	brake
18:10	RSchulz	Or, maybe, "break?"
18:10	hiredman	gah
18:11	aperotte	If I'm extending an abstract class with :gen-class, do I have to define the abstract methods in the same file or can I define those in a different context as well?
18:12	hiredman	you can define ththe functions that corrispond to class methods latter
18:12	hiredman	as long as they are in the right namespace
18:13	aperotte	and the right namespace would be the same as the :gen-class ns or whatever namespace I happen to be in?
18:13	hiredman	it defaults to the gen-class ns
18:14	hiredman	but you can specify it
18:14	aperotte	oh ok, that's right
18:14	aperotte	thanks
18:14	hiredman	I just worked through this yesterday
18:17	aperotte	hiredman: thanks, those things would've taken me a little while to figure out
18:22	hiredman	clojurebot: sandbox is http://calumleslie.blogspot.com/2008/06/simple-jvm-sandboxing.html
18:22	clojurebot	Ok.
18:26	hiredman	oooh
18:26	hiredman	very cool
18:28	RSchulz	What an odd coincidence... I just found a transcript of #haskell and it appears they have an evaluater bot called "lambdabot"
18:28	RSchulz	http://tuukka.iki.fi/tmp/haskell-2008-02-24.html
18:29	gnuvince_	RSchulz: yes
18:29	gnuvince_	lambdabot is very cool
18:30	Chousuke	hm, that sandboxing stuff is rather verbose :P
18:30	RSchulz	gnuvince_: You do Haskell?
18:30	Chousuke	but then again, it's java :p
18:30	billc	RSchulz: for people who use ERC in emacs, creating a Clojure evaluator is trivial
18:30	RSchulz	What's ERC?
18:30	billc	(= 42 42) => true
18:31	Chousuke	RSchulz: elisp irc client
18:31	gnuvince_	RSchulz: a little, I enjoy it a lot. ERC is an Emacs IRC Client.
18:31	RSchulz	Thanks.
18:31	billc	(printf "%s" ns) => usernil
18:31	Chousuke	heh
18:31	RSchulz	I'm feeling pretty overloaded with things to learn lately: Clojure, FP, Emacs. Whew!
18:31	billc	lisppaste8: url
18:31	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
18:33	aperotte	hiredman: do you happen to have an example of :gen-class that uses :exposes?
18:33	gnuvince_	RSchulz: tell me about it; I'm into Clojure, learning git and I'm doing my calculus classes
18:33	hiredman	getting the default applet security policy is not very verbose
18:33	hiredman	aperotte: sorry, did not get that far
18:33	RSchulz	gnuvince_: Sounds like your brain is younger than mine...
18:33	lisppaste8	billc pasted "ERC Clojure code evaluator" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71946
18:34	RSchulz	gnuvince_: (based on the calculus class thing)
18:34	hiredman	(.setSecurityManager System (SecurityManager.))
18:34	hiredman	then suddenly no file or net io in my repl
18:34	hiredman	dunno what else is off limits
18:35	cemerick	hiredman: well, can't get much simpler than that...
18:35	hiredman	well, clojurebot kind of needs network io
18:36	hiredman	and some file io too come to think of it
18:36	Chousuke	hiredman: (System/setSecurityManager (SecurityManager.)) ;)
18:36	hiredman	whichever
18:36	Chousuke	yeah. the / form is much nicer though.
18:37	hiredman	I guess
18:37	hiredman	I see this in java a lot, that simple thing there does almost exactly what I want, but getting the exactly part is going to be hell
18:40	hiredman	if I do have clojurebot eval forms, is there a preference for format?
18:40	Chousuke	Though for System I guess it's semantically correct to say you're calling the method on it. but I'd rather see Math/pow than (.pow Math 1 2) ... or, hrr, (. Math PI)
18:40	hiredman	would be easiest to prefix with , or something
18:40	Chousuke	remember to set print-length :P
18:41	hiredman	heh
18:42	RSchulz	hiredman: What do you mean by format?
18:42	hiredman	,(do stuff)
18:42	hiredman	like, we don't want it to just eval every sexp in the channel, right?
18:42	RSchulz	You mean what pattern does the bot trigger on?
18:43	Chousuke	that's unlikely to conflict with any clojure code
18:43	Chousuke	so fine with me :)
18:43	hiredman	RSchulz: yeah
18:43	RSchulz	Leading !, perhaps.
18:43	hiredman	Chousuke: because , is whitespace
18:43	rafting	what do i pass to sort from biggest to lowest?
18:44	RSchulz	rafting: Supplying your own Comparator would certainly work.
18:44	Chousuke	hm? (sort > [2 3 4 1 5])
18:44	hiredman	wrapping in a (reverse ...) might be easier if you are getting smallest to bigggest
18:45	Chousuke	or just (sort < [2 3 4 1 5]) :p
18:45	hiredman	oh
18:45	hiredman	I see what you did there
18:46	RSchulz	How did you learn that sort would take a predicate? I assumed from the wording of the doc text that it required an actual Comparator.
18:46	Chousuke	RSchulz: in clojure predicates work as comparators.
18:46	Chousuke	at least, I think I read that in the SVN log a while ago :)
18:47	RSchulz	OK... But Comparators have to reutnr < 0, 0 or > 0 to signify the ordering relation that exists between their arguments.
18:47	Chousuke	I guess a predicate-turned-Comparator will never return a 0 then
18:48	RSchulz	Unless whatever converts it implicitly checks for = (first?)
18:48	Chousuke	hm, right.
18:50	Chousuke	did clojurebot have a log lookup function for revisions?
18:50	Chousuke	anyway, r1088: made AFn's Comparator.compare work with predicates too, true values sorting first
18:51	hiredman	svn rev 1088
18:51	clojurebot	svn rev 1088; made AFn's Comparator.compare work with predicates too, true values sorting first
18:53	gnuvince_	RSchulz: I'm 25. Been out of school for 5 years and I've decided that I want to go back and get my bachelor's degree
18:54	RSchulz	gnuvince_: Yuh-huh. I see your 25 and raise you 25 more. (The AARP's on my ass...)
18:55	gnuvince_	RSchulz: wow
18:55	gnuvince_	I'll repeat what I said a few weeks ago: this is a really diverse community
18:55	RSchulz	It's a large world.
18:55	Chousuke	heh
18:56	Chousuke	I think. last I checked I was 23. :/
18:56	Chousuke	I sometimes have trouble remembering my age :)
18:57	gnuvince_	I should just say "I'm 27" for the next 6 years
18:57	rafting	how do i sort on the first element in a list of tuples?
18:57	hiredman	hah
18:57	RSchulz	Then for you (and other non-U.S. types): AARP Associate for the Advancement of Retired Persons (though technically they're just AARP now, since no one's retired at 50...)
18:58	gnuvince_	Speaking of school, I'm gonna go and study for a bit
18:58	gnuvince_	Catch ya later
18:59	Chousuke	rafting: (sort-by first > [[1 2] [5 1]])
18:59	hiredman	when I was 16 a girl guessed my age as 35, so I started introducing my self as being 35
19:00	Chousuke	I get the opposite :/
19:00	RSchulz	hiredman: You'll get over that some day.
19:00	rafting	user=> (sort-by first > [[1 2] [5 1]])
19:00	rafting	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Boolean cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
19:00	hiredman	RSchulz: oh, I am over it, it's mostly just a habit now
19:00	RSchulz	So you're 35 for ever. Nice.
19:00	Chousuke	rafting: your version of clojure is too old :)
19:01	hiredman	actually people believe it less now than they did then
19:01	Chousuke	rafting: in the meantime, (sort-by first (comparator >) ...)
19:02	RSchulz	rafting: Realisically, you should be working with the latest code from SVN. The "official" releases become out-of-date very quickly.
19:02	RSchulz	And sine everyone here and on the list is living on the bleeding edge, we expect everyone to bleed with us.
19:02	RSchulz	But seriously, Rich manages changes well, and it is, as best I can tell, a monotonic curve of improvement.
19:04	hiredman	clojurebot: latest?
19:04	clojurebot	latest is 1150
19:06	Chousuke	there have been a lot of changes since the release.
19:06	Chousuke	the release version is not clojure anymore!
19:07	Chousuke	I suppose things should calm down after an actual 1.0 release :)
19:09	ppierre	anyone use textmate and/or ant ?
19:11	whidden	what's the bot command for the log of the latest svn revision?
19:11	ppierre	clojurebot: latest?
19:11	clojurebot	latest is 1150
19:12	hiredman	svn rev 1150
19:12	clojurebot	svn rev 1150; releaxed namespace requirement for derives in private hierarchy, patch from J. McConnell
19:12	whidden	svn rev head
19:13	whidden	wishful thinking on my part
19:13	Chousuke	svn rev HEAD
19:13	Chousuke	hm, not case-sensitive either then ;(
19:13	hiredman	maybe I should add that
19:14	aperotte	does anyone happen to have any examples of :gen-class using :exposes (I'm trying to use a library the has lots of protected members)
19:15	whidden	library with lots of protected, which library?
19:16	RSchulz	I don't know about "lots," but the Java Collections have some.
19:16	aperotte	java monkey engine (maybe lots was an exaggeration, I need to use 3 for the very basic example)
19:16	hiredman	cute
19:17	Chousuke	monkey engine? does it involve typewriters?
19:17	aperotte	hahaha
19:17	RSchulz	java.util.AbstractList has both protected fields and methods, if that matters.
19:18	RSchulz	Even a protected constructor.
19:18	Chousuke	Java would be more fun if you replaced Abstract with Ideal all over.
19:19	Chousuke	People would go "oh, there's an IdealList! I'll use that" and then be disappointed to find it's not actually implemented :(
19:19	RSchulz	Or, maybe, "Platonic."
19:21	hiredman	public platonic Friends {}
19:21	RSchulz	Hmmm... Maybe a topic for an XKCD comic.
19:22	aperotte	hahaha
19:33	rafting	is there get-with-default? liek (get {'x 5 'y 10} var if-not-found)
19:38	RSchulz	(doc get)
19:38	clojurebot	Returns the value mapped to key, not-found or nil if key not present.; arglists ([map key] [map key not-found])
19:38	RSchulz	The second for takes a third argument, the "if-not-found" value.
19:39	RSchulz	...the second _form_ takes...
19:44	Chousuke	are there any vimperator users here btw? I just found it a few days ago and I'm really impressed :P
19:44	Chousuke	first non-mouse control scheme for a browser that is actually faster and more effective than using the mouse.
19:47	Chousuke	Makes me think that I might be weird. I make my Firefox act like vi, and even emacs, but I rarely actually use vim the editor for anything more complex than simple edits
19:47	Chousuke	at least, that's the case now that I found vimpulse which makes emacs and acceptable vim clone :P
19:48	Chouser	Chousuke: tried it, didn't like it (vimperator)
19:49	RSchulz	What is "vimperator?"
19:49	RSchulz	(I _am_ a Vim user)
19:50	Chousuke	a firefox extension that brings vi-style modal control to firefox.
19:54	Chousuke	So my firefox now looks like this: http://www.modeemi.fi/~oranenj/vimp.png
19:55	Chousuke	hid the tab bar becuase tab rendering is a bit buggy on OS X and I don't really need to see them anyway :P
19:57	RSchulz	I'm intrigued by the notion of making a browser like a character-mode editor. But I don't see anything out of the ordinary on that screen snapshot.
19:58	Chousuke	RSchulz: that's exactly what's out of the ordinary with it, compared to most browser screenshots :)
19:59	Chousuke	the little black bar at the bottom is vimperator's UI :p
19:59	RSchulz	Uh... huh...
19:59	Chouser	the vimperator key bindings got in the way of site-specific key bindings for me.
19:59	RSchulz	I still don't get it.
19:59	Chousuke	(it's white by default)
19:59	Chouser	There were work-arounds, but didn't strike me as worth the effort.
19:59	RSchulz	I'm looking at http://vimperator.org/trac/wiki/Vimperator now
19:59	Chousuke	Chouser: gmail?
20:00	Chouser	bingo
20:00	Chouser	but also others. chalk.
20:00	Chousuke	apparently a piece of javascript in the config file can turn off vimperator for specific sites though.
20:00	RSchulz	So I could, e.g., ":g/(map.*#(/p" ??
20:01	RSchulz	I'm still running Firefox 2.0. I'm loathe to give up Pinball.
20:01	Chousuke	hmm.
20:02	RSchulz	They should have called it Vimperial!
20:02	Chousuke	what I like most is the quickhints stuff
20:02	Chouser	when I tried it, vimperator disabled ff3's "awesome bar", which I've grown to rely on.
20:02	Chouser	hm, we're way off topic.
20:02	Chousuke	no, It's vimperator because it's in control :)
20:04	Chousuke	anyway, I think vimperator is worth investigating at least if you're partial to how vi works. I guess it's not for everyone though.
20:05	RSchulz	I'm certainly partial towards Vim!
20:06	Chousuke	I guess I just like how quickhints and quickmarks work.
20:07	Chousuke	you can press "f" in vimperator and it'll number every link, and you can then either type a number to open the link, or type text to "narrow down" the selection of numbered links
20:07	Chousuke	if you want a tab, that's F :)
20:09	Chousuke	quickmarks are just a way to assign a URL (or URLs) to buttons, so if you assign www.clojure.org to c, then typing goc will get you there.
20:09	rafting	meh how do i prevent a list from becoming a lazycons? there is a lot of implicit conversion in clojure which im not so fond of.
20:09	rhickey	rafting: when does a list become a lazy cons?
20:10	rafting	that swhat i dont know :)
20:11	rhickey	so what conversions are you talking about that you don't like?
20:12	Chousuke	I would guess rafting means stuff becoming lazy at the earliest opportunity.
20:12	rafting	well my lsit becomes a lazy-cons somewhere and i cant figure out where
20:13	rhickey	nothing becomes anything else, functions take values and return different values
20:13	rafting	take makea alzycons of a list for example
20:14	rafting	user=> (class '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 78))
20:14	rafting	clojure.lang.PersistentList
20:14	rafting	user=> (class (take 5 '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 78)))
20:14	rafting	clojure.lang.LazyCons
20:14	rhickey	take returns a new thing, how could it return the same list?
20:14	rafting	sure but you get what i mean
20:15	rafting	ot youre right and im wrong but it is a bit implicit
20:15	zakwilson	take always returns a LazyCons.
20:15	zakwilson	take takes lazily from the original collection
20:15	Chousuke	rafting: clojure is lazy, so it'll always return you lazy things if it can.
20:15	Chousuke	you can force evaluation with doall and dorun
20:16	rhickey	More generally, there's no problem with functions taking one type and returning another
20:16	rhickey	is there?
20:16	RSchulz	It would be a horribly restrictive language if every function's codomain were equal to its domain...
20:17	Chousuke	(class (doall (take 5 '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 78)))) will still be lazycons though, but this time all the values have really been taken :P
20:17	rhickey	and you can create a realized result easily from a lazy one, the converse isn't true without incurring the cost of realizing first
20:18	zakwilson	You could (apply list ...) or (apply vec ...) to that and get a non-lazy list or vector.
20:18	zakwilson	(defn eager-take [n coll] (apply vec (take n coll)))
20:18	rhickey	vec doesn't need the apply, neither list*
20:18	rhickey	(doc vec)
20:18	clojurebot	Creates a new vector containing the contents of coll.; arglists ([coll])
20:19	rhickey	vector does
20:19	rhickey	but apply vector was so common, added vec
20:19	zakwilson	In any case, if you want eager-take, it's a one-liner.
20:20	rhickey	right, and you get to choose the resulting container type, rather than it being hardwired
20:20	rhickey	alos remember (into [] (take ...))
20:20	rhickey	also
20:20	Chousuke	can you put them into java collections?
20:21	rhickey	Chousuke: no, because the semantics of adding are different - mutation in that case
20:22	rhickey	but Java collections all take collections in their ctors, so (ArrayList. [1 2 3 4]) works
20:22	zakwilson	It also wouldn't be hard to write a multifn eager-take that dispatches on the class of the collection and returns the same type.
20:22	rhickey	zakwilson: right: (into (empty x) (map f x))
20:23	zakwilson	rhickey: that's MUCH easier than what I had in mind.
20:24	Chousuke	duck typing makes polymorphism easy.
20:25	rhickey	Chousuke: that's not really duck typing, as there are strong abstractions and interfaces behind it, not just name matching
20:27	Chousuke	But did you see this? http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/913077ecdbe1d3a
20:28	Chousuke	mostly the part where ('+ 1 4) => 4
20:29	hiredman	yeah
20:29	hiredman	weird, no?
20:30	rhickey	symbols are functions, when called on something in which they can't find themselves they return nil or the default if supplied
20:30	Chousuke	I think it should give an error on things like Integer though.
20:31	rhickey	until you want to write generic lookup code on heterogeneous sets
20:31	rhickey	then you'll have to add an awkward type test and branch yourself
20:32	RSchulz	I take it it was an nth-level concern how things like #' would read to CL programmers...
20:33	rhickey	RSchulz: yeah, the symbol/var/fn thing is so different in Clojure, being a Lisp-1 with a non-interning reader
20:33	RSchulz	A friend of mine, a died-in-the-wool CL guy for a long time, told me today he'd prefer a CL job to a Scheme job and that he prefers a Lisp-2.
20:33	RSchulz	I can't say I get it but...
20:34	RSchulz	(dyed-in-the-wool, of course)
20:35	zakwilson	I know a lot of people think lisp-2 or lisp-n is the Right Thing. It's always seemed messy to me, but Scheme has never seemed as practical as CL.
20:36	rhickey	Clojure does find a middle ground, with reified vars, non-interning reader, symbols->resolving->vars, defmacro + some hygiene in `
20:36	rhickey	I think it's the best of both
20:37	zakwilson	That's why I'm here.
20:37	RSchulz	rhickey: Hey, I'm cool with it. But clearly I'm making inroads, since today he bought the PDF of Stuarts book.
20:39	RSchulz	And my friend got a kick out of Bill Clementson's "Common Lisp is the Borg of programming languages" blog: http://bc.tech.coop/blog/040402.html
20:40	zakwilson	Clojure is already my language-of-choice for anything than needs a GUI. I still go for CL for web stuff because I'm used to using Hunchentoot.
20:42	rafting	Hmm, is it just a thing you have to live with in functional programming to pass the same arguments through several functions or is there some design trick to get around it?
20:43	RSchulz	Well, you certainly don't need any other search terms to find _that_ via Google...
20:43	rafting	clojure iis so much better than cl or scheme from what ive tried.
20:43	RSchulz	rafting: How is that different than other languages?
20:45	rafting	what?
20:46	holmak	There's a lot less explicit passing of arguments to functions when there are globals globals, as in normal imperative programming.
20:46	Chousuke	but you know globals are evil.
20:46	Chousuke	unless done right like clojure does.
20:46	RSchulz	holmak, rafting: I'm not sure I think that's really true. My experience in Java is that there's very little reference to global names in any given method.
20:47	holmak	Oh absolutely, but it makes you more aware of the state you are using when you have to pass everything along explicitly.
20:47	Chousuke	RSchulz: except stuff "global" to the object
20:47	RSchulz	And when I think about it, virtually all such references in my code are really _constants_. Fundamental constants of an implementation.
20:47	zakwilson	So I'm not sure what you're getting at, rafting.
20:48	holmak	By globals I also mean an object's state, which you implicitly have in methods...
20:48	RSchulz	Nor I. Passing along arguments doesn't strike me as a problem or even an inconvenience.
20:48	RSchulz	I'd rather pass something off on someone else (some other function) than have to use it directly.
20:48	zakwilson	I've always preferred to pass state around in args rather than store it in globals. If you don't you have a couple options.
20:49	zakwilson	One is to pass around closures.
20:49	holmak	For the record, I like the Clojure way. But it is a change to have to pass _everything_ instead of having things sitting in an object's state.
20:49	zakwilson	Another is to use refs/agents/atoms as globals, but I think that should be avoided when practical as it tends to make for messy code.
20:50	rafting	is there a common class for +-/*?
20:50	RSchulz	If you have very commonly occurring collections of values, you can always use a map or a struct.
20:50	hiredman	closures can do a lot
20:50	rafting	i hate globals
20:50	RSchulz	rafting: Those functions are not classes, so there's no common class unifying them.
20:51	RSchulz	Clojure is not really object-oriented, and you're best served by not trying to think of it as such.
20:51	rhickey	holmak: if you are used to objects, try using maps, so where you would have said anObject.aMethod() you now say (a-function a-map)
20:51	zakwilson	Global objects with encapsulated state and methods that mutate it are still globals.
20:51	Chousuke	I was thinking to myself today, that all languages that want "pure OO" or that methods must be part of a class or an object are fundamentally wrong. (Except smalltalk, but that's because in smalltalk a block of code is the object... it's not a function.)
20:52	rafting	how do i passa round a closure?
20:52	hiredman	rafting: excellent, I was looking for an excuse to paste this again
20:52	hiredman	clojurebot: chutes and ladders?
20:52	clojurebot	Excuse me?
20:52	hiredman	damn it
20:52	rafting	yes oc i could just use a Map and pass it around
20:52	RSchulz	A "closure" (any function) is not special. Just pass it. By name, if it's def-ed / defn-ed, or as a literal, via (fn ...) or #(....)
20:53	holmak	I'm getting along fine with using maps and such, but it was a significant change from my usual style.
20:54	hiredman	rafting: http://gist.github.com/32417 <-- at the bottom the chute function returns a function which is closed over the ref used as an in que
20:54	hiredman	queue
20:54	zakwilson	I think Clojure is a significant change from most people's usual style. It's like a bastard child of Scheme and Haskell.
20:54	holmak	My usual language being Python, which has plenty of classes, mutability and even globals.
20:54	zakwilson	(and I mean that in the nicest way)
20:55	hiredman	heh
20:55	RSchulz	Uh... The term "bastard" has generally negative connotations...
20:55	hiredman	s/bastard/love-child/
20:56	RSchulz	Amazing what a euphemism can do for a thing.
20:56	holmak	Haskell's really good if you want to go crazy trying to understand monads. I'm a PhD or two short of being qualified to be a Haskell programmer.
20:56	Chousuke	born out of scheme and haskell, raised by java...
20:56	RSchulz	Oh my god! Clojure is The One!
20:56	Chousuke	(resulting in a burning passion to change Javaland forever)
20:56	hiredman	born of scheme and haskell secreted away to be raised in the kingdom of nouns
20:57	gnuvince_	"In a world where the number of cores per CPU keeps increasing, the chosen child of Scheme and Haskell seeks to save the world! Raised by his uncle Java The Hutt..."
20:57	gnuvince_	</Don Lafontaine>
20:57	RSchulz	So it could commit regicide on the king of said realm?
20:57	rafting	hiredman: thats some actor-model stuff?
20:57	hiredman	dunno
20:57	hiredman	I just did it, not sure what it is
20:57	zakwilson	I don't know about regicide, but it could be the hier to the throne.
20:58	RSchulz	Well, it's got S-Exprs, so I guess it's pretty hierarchical.
20:58	RSchulz	Something tells me I should go have supper...
21:00	Chousuke	Or maybe it would be more appropriate to say clojure is born out of scheme and java, and carefully raised by haskell :P
21:02	gnuvince_	Clojure does what more programs should do: standing on the shoulders of giants
21:03	Chousuke	hm, yes, that would take into account the fact that clojure is made of lisp and works on the JVM, yet brings functional programming to javaland.
21:03	rafting	(append '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)), no function for that?
21:03	gnuvince_	In CS, progress is made by standing on the toes of everyone else
21:03	rafting	-> '(1 2 3 4 5 6)
21:04	gnuvince_	rafting: concat
21:05	rhickey	cemerick: just to swap the order?
21:05	cemerick	rhickey: yeah, corollary of when-not
21:05	RSchulz	(into '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6))
21:05	rhickey	cemerick: when-not has no order
21:06	Chouser	'concat' is lazy, 'into' is not.
21:06	rhickey	if has two branches, if-not just swaps them
21:06	RSchulz	Chouser: You beat me to it.
21:06	zakwilson	I didn't know about when-not. I have unless in my util file.
21:06	rhickey	into conjes, so will give different order too
21:07	cemerick	rhickey: I know that :-) if-not just allows one to keep the exit from a loop or recur'ed fn at the top is all.
21:07	RSchulz	rafting: One gets the feeling you've not spent much time perusing the resources at http://clojure.org/ ...
21:07	Chouser	RSchulz: but worth mention 'into' -- I still don't think of it often enough when adding to a non-empty collection.
21:07	rhickey	cemerick: that's what I'm trying to get at - the style you are trying to achieve
21:08	rhickey	e.g. exit-at-top
21:09	cemerick	sometimes irc is like trying to have a conversation through a mattress
21:10	RSchulz	The colors aren't enought for you??
21:10	cemerick	is if-not in the stdlib, then? I don't see it anywhere...
21:10	cemerick	everyone is so ORANGE in here!!!
21:10	cemerick	:-P
21:10	RSchulz	There's (when-not), but it takes only a single body form.
21:11	mmcgrana	are there any HTML parsers for Java along the line's of Ruby's Hpricot?
21:11	Chouser	cemerick: I'm not sure, but I rhickey was telling you that exit-at-top is not a desirable style in Clojure.
21:11	Chouser	was trying to tell you, that is.
21:11	mmcgrana	also when trying clojure.xml/pars I get: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: parse for class com.sun.org.apache.xerces.internal.jaxp.SAXParserImpl
21:11	cemerick	ah, I see. Hrm, I'll buck that trend.
21:12	mmcgrana	rather clojure.xml/parse
21:13	cemerick	so often, the return value from a terminating loop or fn recur is just returning an accumulator, so I like to have that short bit before whatever the bulk of the form is.
21:13	hiredman	mmcgrana: you are passing in something that does not patch the method sig of that java method
21:13	Chouser	mmcgrana: I've had some success with tagsoup and zip-filter
21:13	hiredman	I think by default it takes some kind of io stream
21:14	mmcgrana	hiredman: sounds like that could be it, i'll check.
21:15	Chouser	mmcgrana: there's also http://gnuvince.wordpress.com/2008/11/18/fetching-web-comics-with-clojure-part-2/
21:16	mmcgrana	indeed, giving it an InputStream worked, I was giving it a plain String previously.
21:16	rafting	can i in stop a function without doing C-x kill?
21:16	Chouser	rafting: probably not
21:17	rafting	Is there any plan on completely bootstrapping clojure? ie its own datatypes etc, meaning all of them, no java.lang.integer etc
21:18	hiredman	I doubt it
21:18	hiredman	no real point
21:25	RSchulz	rafting: What would be the up-side of that?
21:25	RSchulz	None, I think.
21:25	RSchulz	Java inter-op, not just the mechanism, but the stock libraries, is a big plus for Clojure.
21:25	RSchulz	Just today someone asked me how Clojure will get main-stream buy-in. My answer: Complete Java compatibility and interoperability.
21:26	mmcgrana	Chouser: thanks for those pointers
21:27	RSchulz	If deep Java intimacy were not an issue, we'd use Haskell or Caml or OCaml or ML or some other language. But it _is_ an issue, so the "turn-your-back-on-the-Java-world" approach is a non-starter.
21:27	Chouser	RSchulz: Actually I still wouldn't, but anyway...
21:28	RSchulz	Well, I can't say I would, either, but that's 'cause I don't know any of those languages. Maybe I should have included CL, but that's _far_ from functional.
21:37	Chouser	I played with OCaml, but macros are not to be trifled with.
21:42	zakwilson	Scheme has a more functional culture (e.g. set! is discouraged), but Java interop is a big win.
21:42	zakwilson	Ironicly, it kept me from trying Clojure earlier. I've never liked Java and I had a tendency to dismiss anything associated with it.
21:44	Chouser	looks like beta 4 of the book is out
21:46	hiredman	"The difference between the two interfaces is that the run() method in the PrivilegedExceptionAction interface may throw an arbitrary exception. Note the unfortunate overloading between this method and the run() method of the Thread class and Runnable interface, which return void; a class cannot implement both the Runnable and PrivilegedAction interfaces.
21:46	hiredman	lame
21:51	RSchulz	Chouser: beta4 of "Programming Clojure" was out yesterday. Where you been?
21:54	RSchulz	hiredman: You can probably resolve the conflict with delegation. Unless you really must create a class that is type-compatible with both those interfaces.
21:57	Chouser	RSchulz: oh.
21:57	RSchulz	zakwilson: Disliking Java is fine, but ignoring anything even remotely affiliated will blind you to good languages such as Scala and Clojure.
21:58	RSchulz	Chouser: Did you buy the PDF and / or the printed version of Stuart's book? 'Cause if you did, you should have gotten an email notification of the new beta.
21:58	RSchulz	Yesterday.
21:59	RSchulz	When I mentioned it some other denizen here said he was half way through the new chapter ("Macros")
22:00	Chouser	oh, yeah, now that you mention it, I remember that.
22:00	Chouser	I just got signed up properly today.
22:01	RSchulz	Proper is good.
22:01	RSchulz	"Respect must be paid."
22:13	hiredman	RSchulz: yeah, I just used a proxy
22:14	hiredman	but still terribly disapointing
22:22	hiredman	hah!
22:22	hiredman	sandboxing is sort of working
22:34	zakwilson	RSchulz: you're right. It just took me a while to see that. I don't remember what article or blog post finally got me to try Clojure, but I was impressed when I did.
22:36	danlarkin	zakwilson: I had the same opinion
22:36	danlarkin	and the same change of heart
23:06	blenket	is there a good fft-package in java?
23:17	Kerris7	blenket: JScience has an experimental section, you could have a look there https://jade.dev.java.net/
23:18	blenket	is there an automatic documentation tool for clojure? like .clj to html
23:20	mmcgrana	blenkey: i had started something like that a while back. see some sample docs here: http://clj-doc.s3.amazonaws.com/tmp/doc-1116/index.html code itself is here (not ready to use, though): http://github.com/mmcgrana/clj-doc/tree/master i want to come back to this over the next month.
23:20	mmcgrana	err blenket sorry
23:21	blenket	no worries
23:51	jvoorhis	Chouser: thanks for posting your with-bg-queue example to the mailing list :)
23:56	Chouser	wow, that's going back.
23:56	Chouser	it's in core now
23:56	Chouser	(doc seque)
23:56	clojurebot	Creates a queued seq on another (presumably lazy) seq s. The queued seq will produce a concrete seq in the background, and can get up to n items ahead of the consumer. n-or-q can be an integer n buffer size, or an instance of java.util.concurrent BlockingQueue. Note that reading from a seque can block if the reader gets ahead of the producer.; arglists ([s] [n-or-q s])
23:58	jvoorhis	oh, perfect