#clojure – 2008-11-14

2008-11-14

00:31	rzezeski	Excuse me if this is a newb question, but is the only diff between recur, and using the function symbol itself, the fact that recur won't consume the stack?
02:40	bradbev_	I've written a little viewer app, in much the same style as the ants demo. I listen on a socket inside an agent (started with send-off) and process messages in a loop. Another send-off agent calls repaint & then sleeps. However, my repaint function is not actually getting called :(
02:41	bradbev_	is the swing thread getting choked?
03:19	jtoy	can android apps be written in clojure yet?
03:30	tWip	in theory I guess
03:31	tWip	You can create classes with AOT which the android tools would turn into its own format
06:27	polli	Hi, I've got a silly noob question. How would you write something like this "(let [m someFunction] (. someInstance m))"?
06:28	polli	That is call (. someInstance someFunction)
06:28	polli	do you follow? :)
07:29	hoeck	polli: still here?
07:29	polli	yeah
07:30	hoeck	polli: http://paste.lisp.org/display/67182
07:31	hoeck	you can use this to call a java method dynamically using reflection
07:34	polli	ah! I get it. Hmmm..
07:36	Chousuke	isn't the annotation there a reimplementation of memfn?
07:44	hoeck	chousuke: yes looks a bit like memfn
07:48	Chouser	I bet both memfn and that annotation would frequently require runtime reflection anyway, to pick the right method based on object type and arg types.
09:05	fyuryu	rzezeski: that's correct. Another thing is: you can't recur into other functions
09:20	Pupeno	Hello.
09:20	leafw	bored?
09:21	Pupeno	me? no.
09:22	fanda	hello! looking for some comments on new syntax for tests:
09:22	fanda	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/697d59883a273795#
09:22	fanda	just one person replied
09:22	fanda	bad? good? have better one?
09:23	fanda	i would like to start writing some tests
09:23	fanda	i can learn that way and help too :-)
09:25	Pupeno	I have a jar with a file a/b/c.clj that has (in-ns 'a.b.c) (defn d ...). In another jar I have a function that calls (a.b.c/d) and both jars are in the classpath. It doesn't work (java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: a.b.c), what am I doing wrong?
09:25	Chouser	fanda: did you see the existing test effort in contrib?
09:25	fanda	yes, I saw it
09:26	rhickey	Pupeno: does the other file use/require a.b.c ?
09:26	Chouser	Pupeno: you need (require 'a.b.c)
09:26	fanda	Chouser: it seems unnecessarily verbose to me
09:27	Chouser	fanda: ah, ok. Personally, I'd try to reach a concensus with the people already working on tests.
09:28	Chouser	It seems more important to me that all the tests use the same format than that it's the ideal format. Bring them 'round to your point of view and you get the best of both.
09:29	fanda	yes, I guess, I should talk directly with Stephen C. Gilardi
09:30	fanda	it seems he wrote the tests
09:31	fanda	Stephen, are you here?
09:32	Chouser	he's infrequently here, but he generally responds quicly on the google group.
09:33	fanda	I will write him an email
09:33	fanda	somehow testing seems fun to me (I am all about quality :-) )
09:33	Chouser	great!
09:33	Pupeno	Thanks rhickey, Chouser. So now it is failing because a.b.c.c doesn't exists, this is something that recently change, right?
09:36	rhickey	Pupeno: you have to do one thing or the other - pre-change your file should have been in a/b/c/c.clj - post change in a/b/c.clj, do whatever matches the code revision you want to use
09:37	Pupeno	rhickey: just checking if I understood your mail correctly; since I don't want to be stuck in the past, I'll upgrade. Thanks.
09:38	rhickey	sure
09:51	danlei	when you think that i
09:52	danlei	oops
10:07	Pupeno	Is there a way to find out, from the REPL, which svn revision was used when compiling clojure?
10:10	rhickey	Pupeno: this comes up occasionally and the answer is the same as "when did you stop feeding your dog?"
10:10	rhickey	i.e. the question contains a presumption
10:11	Pupeno	A false presumption I suppose.
10:11	rhickey	maybe
10:11	Pupeno	Which one is it?
10:11	duck1123	so, I can't find the answer from the Repl because I don't have a dog?
10:12	rhickey	or you didn't build from a set of sources matching an svn revision
10:14	Pupeno	rhickey: yes, I understand that part, it may sometimes give false information, but right now, it would be useful for me.
10:15	Chouser	It's such a mess to solve even to 80% correctness. I've seen shell scripts that try to produce a string like "1080" for a clean revision or "1080+" if local changes are detected.
10:15	rhickey	Pupeno: there's an svn command for that
10:15	duck1123	Pupeno: there have been several threads on this subject, many options were given, but none of them stood out as the best way to do it
10:16	Pupeno	ok then.
10:16	duck1123	does sourceforge allow you to set up svn hooks?
10:16	Chouser	But the ones I've seen would use hash-codes for hg and git, which is unhelpful. You'd want to track back to the SVN rev number, if that's even possible.
10:16	duck1123	I've never run a sourceforge project
10:17	Chouser	And of course you'd need all this to work not just on Linux, but Mac and Windows as well.
10:17	Chouser	all of which makes typing "svn info" seem pretty nice.
10:18	leafw	Chouser: a hack would be to checksum the contents of the jar and check that against every revision with a shell script ... could take some time
10:18	duck1123	the ant task inserting the number seems the best option, possibly with a fallback to read from a file for the case of downloaded releases
10:19	rhickey	svn info, like Chouser said
10:19	leafw	agreed.
10:20	Chouser	Now once we have a real version number and a "release culture", it might be worth a bit of effort to get that version number into the runtime environment somehow.
10:20	Chouser	but that wouldn't be VCS based.
10:20	Pupeno	There's an assumption for svn info, and that is that you have the matching repository intact. My problem is "Where did that clojure.jar come from?", not "What is my current revision for this tree?".
10:24	Pupeno	What does (all-ns) return post 1094?
10:24	cemerick	fwiw, we maintain a local authoritative (for us) build of clojure that is tagged with a revision number in ivy, and has that revision number set in a properties file in the clojure.jar we produce
10:26	rhickey	cemerick: a properties file with $Rev$ and a touch in the build script would work maybe?
10:26	jtoy	git
10:29	cemerick	rhickey: maybe -- ours is a bit heavier of a process -- using the svn/status task to set an ant property to the current svn rev #, and then propertyfile to update the properties file
10:30	cemerick	I don't really trust $Rev$ and such. I actually thought such things were frowned upon in svn (though provided for those who long for cvs)?
10:33	rhickey	could be
10:34	Chouser	cemerick: I'm not sure they're frowned on in SVN, but they're completely unavailable in git.
10:35	Chousuke	(automatic) revision numbers don't really make any sense in git anyway
10:35	Chousuke	mostly because git is rather nonlinear, unlike SVN :/
10:35	rhickey	Chousuke: right - see "feeding dog" above
10:36	cemerick	Chouser: turns out I'm wrong -- the red bean book describes svn keywords (like $Rev$) without any cautionary notes. I thought I read something discouraging keyword usage, but I suppose I could have imagined it.
10:37	rhickey	I think if you are going to save off a jar before moving ahead, you should give it a meaningful name
10:37	Chouser	rhickey: have you had specific requests for PersistentHashMap for some other language?
10:38	rhickey	seems like there should be a relationship between the most recent modified datetime and the svn rev
10:38	rhickey	Chouser: has been ported to Factor and Scala
10:38	cemerick	I'm probably being dense, as I'm not getting the dog feeding metaphor, but having some notion of a "version" of clojure that can be determined at runtime will eventually be pretty important. We've just been updating our entire codebase each time we upgrade the clojure we use, but eventually, that will become impractical, so some version-aware conditional execution forms will be necessary.
10:40	rhickey	cemerick: again, that comes to meaningful names - release versions will have meaningful names
10:40	cemerick	Sure. I'm just blathering over here. :-)
10:41	rhickey	and I'm all for an automated solution - no one's come up with one
10:42	cemerick	rhickey: it's a pretty simple thing in svn-land, if you want it; but do we need to support git and hg as well?
10:43	rhickey	cemerick: that was the complaint at the end of: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_frm/thread/9fa07b00c88280fc/e982ad5b869eb11b
10:43	duck1123	I am perfectly okay if I don't get proper build numbers if I use a non-standart repository
10:44	cemerick	yeah, seriously -- do we need to support perforce and pvcs and vss, too?
10:45	duck1123	I would like a solution that supports any scm, but I'd rather just have a solution
10:46	rhickey	so much time, so little accomplished
10:46	cemerick	rhickey: don't let the jets and the sharks knock you off course. Rule with an iron fist. ;-)
10:47	rhickey	I'm concerned for everyone's productivity - these vcs discussions always go nowhere
10:48	jtoy	election projection systems,machine listening systems
10:48	jtoy	listening right now
10:52	dudleyf	vcs discussions are almost as productive as licensing discussions ;-)
10:58	cemerick	dudleyf: I'd swap them in that comparison, but sure :-)
11:01	albino	couldn't you just version every release, and make that part of the version that shows up at runtime?
11:04	leafw	albino: just do it yourself and submit a patch.
11:04	leafw	i.e. create the system, if you want it.
11:06	albino	leafw: heh
11:06	albino	I just realized python actually does display that (the svn rev number) in its repl. I didn't even know that and I've been using it for years.
11:07	triddell	In the tutorial at http://riddell.us/clojure I document using the startup script located at git://github.com/jochu/clojure-extra.git. Using this you just call "clojure" on the command line and it starts a REPL, adds all the jars in .clojure to the classpath, etc. Slime also refers to this script in the tutorial. After the update to the latest version I can start clojure with "java -cp clojure.jar clojure.lang.Repl" but the "clojure" script fails with a "Fil
11:07	cemerick	there's already a patch for that functionality on the google group. If Rich wants it, he'll pick it up.
11:08	Chouser	triddell: you got cut off at: fails with a...
11:08	triddell	fails with a "FileNotFoundException: Could not locate utils.class or utils.clj on classpath" Any ideas? Is anyone else using this script?
11:10	Craig	Anyone else having problems with slime on the latest bits? I keep getting "Evaluation aborted" in the minibuffer, although I can still run commands in the REPL no problem.
11:14	dudleyf	triddell: I doubt that script's been updated for a while
11:17	triddell	dudleyf: right, but it seems pretty basic and I'm just wondering why it would be broken now... all it really tries to do execute java with the classpath options... guess I just need to simplify it even more and see if I can tell what it breaking
11:18	dudleyf	triddell: The AOT stuff changed where Clojure looks for namespaces
11:19	dudleyf	from path/to/name/name.clj to path/to/name.clj
11:19	dudleyf	If I'm not mistaken
11:21	duck1123	What are your opinions? In Compojure, should the request and response objects be made available thread-locally, or no?
11:22	duck1123	I'm kinda for it mostly because many of the libraries I'm using expect me to have it, but I also see the author's point
11:22	Chouser	duck1123: I haven't spoken up on the list because I have zero experience with compojure. Having said that, I'm leaning against it.
11:23	triddell	dudleyf: I think I just fixed it... it looks to optionally run an additional script when starting the REPL... this may have been reseting the working directory and then not allowing the main clojure classes to be found I guess
11:23	Chouser	Having "global" access to the request in rails makes it very difficult to tell what data any particular method is relying on.
11:24	Chouser	You can look at a method and think you know what it needs, but it may call a helper function that depends on some other request field.
11:24	duck1123	it seems to me like having a hash of data, and then pulling all that data out for every function
11:25	Chouser	duck1123: sure, essentially the same thing. What might be better is to isolate the request data right at the handler, and pass in specific arguments that are needed.
11:26	candera	I get java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError when trying to evaluate '() on the latest bits.
11:26	Chouser	The idea of using multiple threads on a single request further pushes in the direction avoid a thread-global.
11:26	duck1123	I hate filling up the handler macro with code that really should go elsewhere
11:27	candera	(list) evaluates fine. (quote ()) also blows up.
11:28	duck1123	I think I'll just drop it and continue doing what I have been doing
11:28	Chouser	duck1123: well, you could pass the request one level in to a function that unpacks the request or whatever, and passes the specific args on down.
11:29	duck1123	that's essentially what I have been doing
11:29	Chouser	duck1123: I'm by no means convinced, but I'm giving you the reasons I've come up with for one side of the argument.
11:30	Chouser	I think the usual trade off is between making it easy to make changes (global request means you can easily add a new arg without changing all the functions between the handler and the one that needs the data)
11:30	duck1123	I have a template that needs access to the session, so that means I need the session to be available to every "page-view" function
11:31	Chouser	between that and easy of understanding (being able to see at each point exactly what data may be used, and what will be modified/returned)
11:32	Chouser	hm. Well, you could add it as your own thread-global if you want, couldn't you?
11:32	drewr	I'm now confused about this ns/in-ns conversation on the list.
11:33	drewr	If I use (in-ns 'foo) from a different file from where (ns foo) resides, none of the symbols is available in the in-ns file.
11:33	duck1123	I suppose I could. Although I'm not sure where the best place to do that would be if not in the compojure.http ns
11:34	drewr	Even a refer doesn't make them available.
11:34	duck1123	drewr: wouldn't you need to require 'foo?
11:36	drewr	I can (clojure.core/require 'foo).
11:36	drewr	How come that then makes clojure.core symbols available? Because of the ns?
11:36	drewr	I suppose that makes sense.
11:36	rhickey	I see a request being more of a context, so prefer the var approach, you can bind that var in any launched threads
11:36	Chousuke	hmmh
11:37	Chouser	rhickey: as in, pass the request to the new thread and using (binding ...) again there?
11:37	drewr	Now I get Reflection warnings in calls to .toUpperCase.
11:38	drewr	All this just magically worked with ns. :-)
11:38	rhickey	Chouser: yeah
11:39	Chousuke	I'm trying to precompile clojure.core but it fails with a rather cryptic error: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/core$str__2721$fn__2725 (core.clj:325) ... on that line in core.clj there's the definition of 'symbol?
11:40	Chouser	Chousuke: you have the "classes" dir in your classpath?
11:40	Chousuke	hmm, no. duh :P
11:43	Chousuke	well, now it compiles
11:44	Chouser	rhickey: isn't relying on that kind of implicit context one of the things Tarpit warns against, in favor of more functional and explicit passing of data?
11:45	Chousuke	if I remove the classes dir though, the compilation works a bit weird: I have to run clojure, (compile 'clojure.core), it fails, but after restarting clojure it can now use the classes in the classpath and compilation will succeed.
11:46	rhickey	Chouser: yes, you have to use it wisely. OTOH, out would have to be threaded through the entire world...
11:47	rhickey	that's a different problem - lack of encapsulation, tainting the call path
11:49	Chousuke	hm
11:49	Chousuke	now this behaviour is rather interesting.
11:49	Chouser	yeah, ok. feels like a judgement call, and anyone who trusts my judgement over yours is undoubtedly asking for trouble. But out is one thing, as is err and in. the request is n things, the number and names of which can change just by adjusting the request URL.
11:49	duck1123	for reference, here's my current controller file: http://github.com/duck1123/mycyclopedia/tree/master/app/controller/controller.clj
11:50	duck1123	pre-AOT
11:54	drewr	Class cast bug? http://pastie.org/314946
11:54	drewr	Er, not casting.. type hint.
11:55	Chouser	I think you type-hinted a list
11:55	drewr	I get Reflection warnings if I don't.
11:56	Chouser	(when true #^String %)
11:56	drewr	http://pastie.org/314949.txt
11:56	drewr	OK.
11:58	drewr	Is this a consequence of AOT that I have to type hint everywhere now?
11:59	Chouser	duck1123: yeah, I can see what you mean. It's very interesting to me, though, that returning the output looks very natural, even without an out-like global.
12:00	Chouser	drewr: I don't think so. You're getting more reflection warnings now than you used to?
12:00	Chousuke	here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/70388
12:00	Chousuke	that might be intended behaviour, but it sure is confusing.
12:01	drewr	Chouser: Yes, this worked fine before. http://pastie.org/314953.txt
12:02	Chouser	Chousuke: what happens if you have an empty classes directory before you start?
12:03	Chousuke	ah. it works.
12:05	Chouser	Chousuke: I think java may be essentially eliminating "classes" from your classpath when the dir doesn't exist.
12:06	Chouser	drewr: are you sure? I don't see how it could have. "size" could legally be either an int or a java.util.Collection
12:07	drewr	All I know is that I didn't get any warnings before.
12:07	drewr	I don't mind type hinting, but I don't understand why the compiler now cares.
12:08	Chouser	You don't have to type hint -- it'll just use reflection at runtime.
12:08	drewr	So what is the warning telling me then?
12:08	Chouser	I just rebuild clojure SVN 1088, and this generates a warning:
12:08	Chouser	(set! warn-on-reflection true)
12:08	Chouser	(defn m [size] (java.util.concurrent.LinkedBlockingQueue. m))
12:09	Chouser	The warning is simply saying that that call will use reflection at runtime rather than being able to resolve the call perfectly at compile time.
12:09	Chouser	it's essentially a performance warning.
12:10	Chouser	rhickey has generally recommended using type hints only when you know you need the performance.
12:11	drewr	Yeah, it's ugly.
12:11	Chouser	yep
12:12	drewr	Maybe it's that I started using in-ns again.
12:12	drewr	I don't know why they would be related though.
12:12	Chousuke	hmm
12:12	Chouser	If warn-on-reflection is false, you shouldn't get any of those warnings.
12:13	Chouser	It certainly used to always default to false, and I think it still does.
12:13	drewr	It's set to true (in SLIME), but it's been that way for months of usage.
12:13	Chousuke	I can't compile clojure.inspector on OS X without causing a clojure.lang.Repl process showing up in the dock. I suppose that's because of the Swing-related imports.
12:14	Chousuke	I suppose it's harmless. :)
12:14	drewr	Chousuke: Except that CMD-Q causes it to kill your JVM.
12:15	Chousuke	well, yeah
12:15	drewr	Sometimes I forget about that.
12:24	cemerick	rhickey: I often get "java.lang.Exception: Accessor/struct mismatch" when developing in the repl -- presumably, the ordering of a struct's def has changed, and some client code is trying to use an old def to access a newer version of a struct. In virtually every circumstance, I've not actually changed the keys in a struct. So, shouldn't struct defs be compared with .equals (instead of !=) in PersistentStructMap?
12:24	cemerick	Of course, Def would have to gain a proper equals impl.
12:25	cemerick	s/the ordering of a struct's def as changed/
12:35	fanda	rhickey: In the latest SVN, there are both core-proxy.clj and proxy.clj files in src\clj\clojure
12:35	fanda	is this intentional?
12:44	danlei	(/ 1 0)
12:44	danlei	... well ... no debugger in irc ;)
13:13	Drakeson	is there a better (lazy) way of doing (seq (.split (slurp file-name) "\n"))
13:14	Drakeson	something that could be called slurp-lines
13:17	fanda	see this
13:17	fanda	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/380fdd164a5c5b7a/6c2ce06780ce5ddf?lnk=gst&q=line-seq#
13:17	fanda	for line-seq
13:17	Drakeson	fanda: thanks
13:18	fanda	no problem
13:20	Drakeson	How would you read into a variable what you have prn'ed into a file?
13:20	drewr	Drakeson: (doc read)
13:20	Drakeson	thanks
13:21	drewr	Or read-string I suppose if you've already read the file.
13:23	Chousuke	Can a jar Manifest file contain multiple classpaths? I'm trying to include precompiled .class files in a jar but I'd like to have them all under a /precompiled directory; however, it seems that clojure doesn't use the .class files if I have them like that. If I put them in the same dir with the .clj counterparts it works though.
13:25	Chouser	Chousuke: http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4295946
13:26	Drakeson	what's wrong with this: (with-open [f "test.dat"] (read f))
13:27	hiredman	many many things
13:27	hiredman	well, I am not sure what the latest with-open does
13:28	Chouser	drewr: read wants a PushbackReader, not a filename
13:28	Chouser	^^ Drakeson
13:28	Chouser	drewr: sorry. :-)
13:28	hiredman	and strings don't have a close method
13:28	Chouser	Drakeson: do you have clojure.contrib?
13:30	Drakeson	is `f' in (with-open [f "test.dat"] (read f)) a filename or a stream?
13:30	Drakeson	I guess I have contrib ...
13:30	drewr	Drakeson: It's anything that can be .close()d.
13:30	Chouser	with-open is somewhat poorly named. It doesn't actually open anything, just closes whatever you bind at the end of the block.
13:31	Chouser	(with-open [f (java.io.PushbackReader. (java.io.FileReader. (java.io.File. "test.dat")))] (read f))
13:31	Drakeson	oh!
13:32	Drakeson	there should be a macro/function for that
13:32	Chouser	duck-streams
13:32	Drakeson	(with-open-file [bindings] do-things)
13:33	Drakeson	Chouser: what is in contrib for that?
13:33	Chouser	(require '[clojure.contrib.duck-streams :as ds])
13:33	Chouser	(with-open [f (java.io.PushbackReader. (ds/reader "obj.clj"))] (read f))
13:33	drewr	http://github.com/kevinoneill/clojure-contrib/tree/master/src/clojure/contrib/duck_streams.clj#L20
13:34	candera	Is anyone else having trouble evaluating '() on 1099? I get ExceptionInInitializerError.
13:35	candera	(quote ()) also blows up, but (list) does not.
13:35	drewr	Doesn't work for me either.
13:35	rhickey	candera: fixing now, hang tight
13:35	Chouser	huh. () works though
13:35	candera	rhickey: roger. Thanks.
13:39	Chousuke	I fixed it so that the manifest has only one Class-Path attribute but it still doesn't work :/
13:40	hiredman	is the path with the .clj files first in the class path?
13:40	Chousuke	no, it's last.
13:41	Chousuke	currently it looks like "./precompiled/ ."
13:41	rhickey	candera: print-dup on '() fixed. Now please start using () instead of '() :)
13:42	Chousuke	I wonder if it's causing problems that precompiled/ is a subdir of the second classpath element :/
13:42	danlei	'(
13:42	danlei	doesn't work for me either
13:43	rhickey	danlei: what doesn't?
13:43	danlei	evaluating '() throws an exception
13:44	Chouser	danlei: time to upgrade :-)
13:44	danlei	hm
13:44	rhickey	danlei: you have rev 1100?
13:44	danlei	just built it an hour ago :)
13:44	candera	rhickey: thanks!
13:44	Chouser	it's been fixed for 3 minutes now!
13:44	danlei	ty
13:45	rhickey	I am serious though, please don't write '() - quoted lists are ugly
13:45	danlei	depends
13:45	danlei	actually, it's a common ideom
13:45	rhickey	not in Clojure
13:45	danlei	can't argue that
13:45	danlei	in cl, it is
13:45	rhickey	() is the empty list, if you want literal tuples use vectors
13:45	Chousuke	I really can't figure out why clojure appears not to be finding the .class files from the jar classpath. :/
13:47	Chousuke	though I could probably use a more accurate method for determining that than running a hello world script and looking at how long it takes.
13:47	hiredman	...
13:48	Chousuke	the difference is pretty noticeable though.
13:48	danlei	apropos vectors: how relates [] to (vector ...)? one can't write (defn (vector ...) ...) as it seems
13:48	Chouser	Chousuke: you could try removing the .clj classpath entry entirely
13:48	Chousuke	I suppose.
13:49	danlei	typo: (defn foo (vector ..) ..
13:49	Chouser	danlei: defn doesn't evaluate it's arguments -- if it did (defn foo [a b] ...) would complain that a and b are not yet defined.
13:49	hiredman	defn is a macro, yes? so it just sees the (vector ...) function call, not a vector
13:50	danlei	so its like (quote (vector ..)), ok. thanks. same relation like '( and list.
13:50	Chouser	danlei: not quite -- when [] is evaluated, all of its values are evaluated, unlike if it is quoted
13:50	rhickey	danlei: not really - vector literals are evaluated
13:51	rhickey	what he said :)
13:51	danlei	ok, got it.
13:54	danlei	oh, no dotted lists
13:55	Chouser	nope. use a vector
13:55	danlei	i see
13:55	Chouser	well, or a list or whatever.
13:57	Chouser	There's a Cons class, but although the first thing can be any Object, the second thing must implement ISeq
13:57	rhickey	if you were doing (x . y) in CL, please switch to [x y]
13:58	rhickey	for 2-tuples
13:59	danlei	ok, thanks rhicky. is there some kind of tutorial, which compares clojure with cl? there is a little table at wikipedia, any tips above that?
13:59	danlei	+e
14:00	rhickey	Stuart Sierra posted a patch for precompiling Clojure's core libs into the jar, doubles the size and halves the startup. I'm for it, any objections?
14:00	gnuvince	danlei: not a tutorial per-se, but this highlight many differences: http://clojure.org/lisps
14:01	danlei	gnuvince: thank you
14:01	rhickey	a useful exercise - try avoiding using lists except when writing macros, question every time you use reverse etc
14:02	rhickey	will get you up to speed on seqs, vectors and maps
14:04	Chousuke	rhickey: I was trying to do that myself (mostly as an excercise though :))
14:04	rhickey	Chousuke: I did it as a proof of concept of AOT, but Stuart did the ant side
14:05	rhickey	works great
14:05	Chousuke	In my version I got it working but it's pretty ugly, as the .jar file clojure/ dir will be full of .class files :p
14:05	danlarkin	+1 for precompiling clojure.jar
14:05	Chousuke	I tried to figure out how to move them outside the main clojure/ dir but that didn't seem to work no matter what I did.
14:05	AWizzArd	rhickey: many clojure functions return what looks like a list... are those really always lists?
14:06	rhickey	Chousuke: um, aren't jars supposed to be full of class files?
14:06	rhickey	AWizzArd: rarely
14:06	danlarkin	AWizzArd: run (class ...) on it
14:06	Chousuke	rhickey: I kind of wanted to separate the precompiled stuff from the .clj stuff, but that's just me :)
14:06	rhickey	AWizzArd: almost never actually lists
14:06	AWizzArd	Ah oki, so it's just the printed representation, good
14:06	rhickey	Chousuke: the .cljs are not in the jar
14:07	AWizzArd	Clojures vectors don't leave very much room for the usefullness of lists
14:07	rhickey	AWizzArd: how so?
14:07	danlei	ah, there are transcriptions of pcl chapters in clojure. nice ...
14:07	rhickey	oh I see what you meant
14:08	fanda	danlei: another comparison CL-Clojure
14:08	fanda	http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming#Clojure_for_Common_Lisp_Programmers
14:08	Chousuke	rhickey: in my version of the .jar builder I left them in. Now that I think of it, it seems rather pointless.
14:09	danlei	fanda: thanks that's fond that one already
14:09	danlei	fanda: thanks excuse my english ;)
14:09	fanda	:-)
14:10	fanda	i am not a native speaker either :-)
14:11	fanda	see? :-)
14:11	danlei	yes, but normally, i can at least parse my own sentences .. =)
14:11	gnuvince	Quite the multi-cultural community we have here
14:11	danlei	. o O (that's fond that one already)
14:12	rhickey	gnuvince: yes, it's great
14:15	fanda	watch for typos or I say that you are not a native speaker (n)either :-)
14:15	fanda	:-)
14:17	fanda	(just having fun :-) )
14:18	Chousuke	Many times I've seen native speakers use worse English on IRC than non-natives :P
14:19	fanda	as long as both sides understand, it's just fine
14:19	Chousuke	Yeah.
14:19	Chousuke	No prizes for literary excellence.
14:19	danlarkin	what?!
14:20	danlarkin	but that's what I'm gunning for :'(
14:22	fanda	rhickey: I remember discussion about #+ and #- macros from CL. They gonna eventually make it into Clojure in some way. Has that happened already or not? (Just curious, no pushing).
14:22	Chouser	fanda: those haven't happened yet.
14:22	gnuvince	What are #+ and #-?
14:22	rhickey	cemerick: struct equality test would be a lot of overhead on every access
14:22	rhickey	could do some hash thing I guess
14:24	cemerick	rhickey: it gets tricky otherwise -- you've been knocking around in the repl for an hour, and then all of a sudden a pile of structs that are being held somewhere (or in many places) are rendered "stale", so you have to go around and reconstitute them, which isn't always possible.
14:25	fanda	gnuvince: they are reader macros
14:25	fanda	#+ symbol include-this
14:25	fanda	if symbol exists, include-this gets put in the place of the whole thing
14:25	cemerick	maybe Defs could be interned? I wouldn't think there'd be many Defs in any particular app/library.
14:25	fanda	or should I say - if symbol is bound to something true
14:26	rhickey	fanda: on todo list
14:26	fanda	rhickey: oh, ok
14:27	fanda	i was first confused, if it isn't #= macro
14:28	rhickey	cemerick: I don't want to tease you, but in doing aot, I realized (again) that structmaps don't serialize well due to their relationship to the def. I'm thinking now that maybe structmaps should do some codegen and have a real class as basis - would also give you named fields on Java side
14:30	cemerick	rhickey: that's exactly how I was hoping I could reimplement genbean, once AOT is ready for me
14:30	cemerick	I'd prefer methods on the Java side, though (:foo structmap) in clojure => structmap.foo() in Java.
14:31	rhickey	cemerick: really, why?
14:31	cemerick	My latest genbean impl also adds "setters" for those slots, so structmap.foo(newFoo) => updated-structmap-with-newFoo
14:31	rhickey	ah
14:31	rhickey	cute
14:32	rhickey	last call - precompiled clojure.jar 10, 9, 8 ...
14:32	cemerick	exposing methods instead of fields also allows for emergency subclassing down the line
14:33	rhickey	cemerick: :(
14:34	cemerick	rhickey: yeah, I know. That's more of a symptom of it not being straightforward to "subclass" a genbean specification at this point.
14:34	cemerick	In my defense, I've only done it twice so far.
14:44	rhickey	svn 1101 - Clojure ant script now precompiles .cljs into jar
14:45	Chouser	beautiful. it Just Works.
14:51	fanda	do you see any usefulness in keeping 2 different build scripts? one for .clj, second for .class?
14:52	Chouser	-Xverify:none seems to reduce startup time slightly
14:52	Chouser	as does -client
14:53	AWizzArd	Chouser: but do you usually run java in a -server for programming Clojure?
14:53	rhickey	Chouser: I think the JRuby guys tout -Xbootclasspath as being a big boost
14:54	Chouser	AWizzArd: I do usually use -server
14:57	rhickey	-Xbootclasspath/a:clojure.jar
14:59	rhickey	doesn't seem to make a big difference for me, but I'm just over a second here
15:00	AWizzArd	i will see if i can test this inside vmware later, with my mobile processor on just 50%
15:00	Lau_of_DK	About this AOT business - Im completely blank on the uses of this, where do I go read ?
15:03	Chouser	rhickey: with your bootclasspath option and -client, -Xverify:none doesn't seem to help. But I'm down to 0.448s
15:04	rhickey	Chouser: bootclasspath subsumes verify:none
15:04	dudleyf	Classes added to the bootclasspath bypass the verifier, so -Xverify:none shouldn't do anything
15:05	Chouser	I assumed it was something like that.
15:07	dudleyf	I vaguely remember JRuby having some problems using bootclasspath
15:08	Lau_of_DK	About this AOT business - Im completely blank on the uses of this, where do I go read ?
15:09	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/58e3f8e5dfb876c9
15:09	rhickey	"This can be used to save startup time, deliver
15:09	rhickey	applications without source, interop with bytecode-based tools etc. "
15:10	rhickey	If you don't need it, you can ignore it
15:10	Lau_of_DK	thanks rhickey
15:10	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: don't ignore the code changes though, just ignore compile
15:11	Lau_of_DK	k
15:11	Lau_of_DK	Are the interrim SVN changed completed now?
15:12	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: I think the experience on HEAD is back to normal
15:12	Lau_of_DK	k
15:12	Chouser	clojure.contrib isn't quite all caught up yet.
15:14	rhickey	Chouser: what's left?
15:16	Chouser	I've got that squirrely gen-interface thing.
15:16	rhickey	ah, yes, I didn't get to look at that last night
15:16	rhickey	It happens when manual loading and compiling in same session>
15:16	rhickey	?
15:17	Chouser	oh, Stuart S. moved lazy-xml and command-line for me. I guess everything should load ok now.
15:17	rhickey	cool
15:17	Chouser	rhickey: yes, that's the only time I've seen it.
15:18	rhickey	you guys are awesome to have switched over so quickly
15:19	Chouser	But like I said, I can follow the directions I posted and not see an error.
15:25	Lau_of_DK	Are there currently any other languages available which can offer the concurrency guanrantees that Clojure does?
15:25	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: Haskell
15:25	Lau_of_DK	k
15:25	rhickey	Erlang
15:26	gnuvince	Is there a method to know if a number is negative, positive or zero?
15:26	Lau_of_DK	pos?
15:26	Lau_of_DK	zero?
15:26	Lau_of_DK	neg?
15:26	Lau_of_DK	rhickey, thanks
15:26	gnuvince	Lau_of_DK: all in one, like signum in Haskell IIRC.
15:27	Chouser	gnuvince: #(compare % 0)
15:28	Lau_of_DK	But rhickey, unless I misunderstood Clojure, you say that even in race-conditions, no locks are used? Erlang suffers from deadlock situations according to your (very excellent) 'state' article
15:29	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: no, clojure's STM uses locks quite a bit - there are no user locks and no deadlock
15:29	Lau_of_DK	oh ok . I must have missed that
15:29	rhickey	Erlang leaves it to you to avoid deadlocks
15:30	rhickey	using timeouts etc
15:30	rhickey	but Erlang has a distributed concurrency model, so is a different thing altogether
15:30	rhickey	If that's what you need there's no substitute right now
15:31	Lau_of_DK	Yes I get that. But I understood that the STM creates snapshots for all readers coming in, so that you get a consitent view of the data. And when writing is atomic, because youre only changings refs. Where does locks occur in that?
15:32	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: you don't have to lock, I do in the implementation of STM, which is, shall we say, tricky
15:33	rhickey	probably the only part of Clojure Chouser hasn't yet gotten around to
15:33	Lau_of_DK	haha
15:33	Lau_of_DK	rhickey, STM is purely your brain-child?
15:34	rhickey	STM is a well known idea - there are many implementations
15:35	Lau_of_DK	ok, but you wrote your own I mean, its not a copy of PostReSql or something like that? I seem to remember you mentioning it in a screencast somewhere
15:35	Chouser	heh. ClojureScript doesn't even have Refs yet, let alone ones that would work if JS had threads.
15:35	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: Clojure's STM is unique to Clojure
15:35	Lau_of_DK	rhickey, cool, thats what I wanted to know
15:35	AWizzArd	rhickey: what about F# for concurrency?
15:38	rhickey	AWizzArd: AFAIK F#'s refs don't have any transactional semantics, just the regular ML ones. It's a mixed paradigm language like Scala - you can write in a functional subset, or not
15:38	AWizzArd	I see
16:16	Lau_of_DK	(/s/and/at)
16:16	Chouser	sohail: oh, stop it.
16:17	sohail	Chouser, time to make a FAQ methinks
16:18	Chouser	yeah, perhaps. but that question needs more than a pat answer.
16:18	Chouser	it needs a blog post that I can't seem to write. or something.
16:19	AWizzArd	Would clojure run also under this open java? What about Kawa?
16:20	Chouser	sohail: did you solve yours to your satisfaction?
16:21	hiredman	I know the repl at least starts on openjdk7
16:21	walters	AWizzArd: under OpenJDK? if so yes, OpenJDK has all the important code from the proprietary JDK
16:21	AWizzArd	nice
16:27	sohail	Chouser, no
16:27	sohail	problem was I wanted CL-like dispatching and I was too arsed to do it properly
16:37	astor	can someone explain to me how I use defmulti/defmethod to implement a function that dispatches on say a vector of 3 elements where I want some of the elements in the vector to be what in CLOS would be 't - that is "don't care"?
16:37	polli	Are there people here using aquamacs and clojure-mode/swank-clojure?
16:37	astor	polli: I am
16:38	polli	astor: when I do M-x slime it gives me an exception. Ever had that problem?
16:39	kotarak	astor: (defmulti foo (fn [[x _ _]] x)) (defmethod foo :x [x] :xxx) (foo [:x :y :z]) (foo [:x 1 2])
16:39	polli	astor: "java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate Clojure resource on classpath: swank/swank.clj"
16:41	polli	when I look in swank-clojure there's a swank.clj, but none in swank-clojure/swank
16:42	astor	kotarak: I mean something like (defmulti foo (fn [x] [(:a x) (:b x) (:c x)])) (defmethod foo [:x _ _] :xxx) (defmethod [_ :y :z] :asdf) ...
16:43	astor	kotarak: where the _s in defmethod mean don't care.
16:43	astor	polli: have you set swank-clojure-jar-path?
16:45	astor	polli: erm.. have you done (add-to-list 'load-path "/Users/foo/path/to/swank-clojure/")?
16:45	AWizzArd	nice, nearly 900 users in the GG.. and nearly 90 people here in #Clojure
16:45	AWizzArd	and maybe something like v0.9 ;-)
16:46	polli	yes, add-to-list-thing is in
16:46	polli	I tested with the swank-clojure-jar-path now, but it did not fix it :/
16:48	polli	astor: I followed some screencast setting up aquamacs with clojure-mode, I checked it twice but was not able to spot any differences
16:48	kotarak	astor: you could probably do something like (derive ::Foo ::Bottom) (derive ::Bar ::Bottom) (derive ::Baz ::Bottom) (defmulti foo (fn [x] [(:a x) (:b x)])) (defmethod foo [::Foo ::Bottom ::Bottom] :xxx) (defmethod foo [::Bottom ::Bar ::Baz] :yyy) (foo [:a ::Foo :b ::Bar :c ::Foo]) (foo [:a ::Baz :b ::Bar :c ::Baz]) (not tested, though)
16:57	kotarak	astor: ok. doesn't work obviously. Although (isa? ::Foo ::Bottom) returns true, you has to define a dedicated multimethod.
17:05	astor	polli: I seem to remember that there is some ordering magic in .emacs for swank and slime. swank-clojure sets up some functions to be called after slime is loaded, so you might get in trouble if you have slime pre-loaded.
17:06	polli	astor: aha!
17:07	polli	astor: I'll test that to disable the pre-loaded
17:09	astor	kotarak: my problem is that I have an unlimited number of ::Foo and ::Bar values, so the derive stuff isn't trivial. what happens when one dispatches on a map. do all elements have to match?
17:11	kotarak	astor: it seems so
17:13	astor	if there was a designated name for the supertype of everything, then that could be dispatched on, but that doesn't seem to be possible to specify using the derive interface.
17:14	kotarak	You can, but you have to provide a multimethod anyway for all possible types. (derive ::Foo ::Bottom) and (defmethod foo ::Bottom ...) still complain, that there is not multimethod defined for ::Foo.
17:19	astor	kotarak: it shouldn't be like that if I understand the example in http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/64e14b845a5e8905 correctly. there (derive java.util.Collection ::collection) implies that (defmethod foo ::collection [c] :a-collection) gets called for (foo [])
17:24	kotarak	astor: hmm.. you are right. There must have been something messed up. With a fresh Repl it works now. So I can derive everything from ::Bottom and can use ::Bottom as a wildcard.
17:25	astor	kotarak: the problem is that I have no way of saying "derive everything from ::Bottom"
17:28	astor	I guess hierarchies could have a list of parents that everything derives from so that isa? simply returns true whenever the second argument is in that list.
17:31	danlei	404 for me
17:31	danlei	oops
17:31	Chousuke	some kind of an always-match value might indeed be useful for multimethods :/ Are there any arguments against having one?
17:32	astor	chousuke: i see that underive semantics might change slightly. are you allowed to underive from a always-match parent?
17:33	rhickey	Chousuke: I might bake in everything isa? Object, still thinking about it
17:36	astor	rhickey: my original question was how to implement something like (defmulti foo (fn [data] [(:a data) (:b data)]) (defmethod foo [:x _] :xxx) (defmethod foo [_ :y] :yyy) where _ is don't care. Basically to specify 't as in a CLOS method.
17:37	rhickey	astor: I understand, and with what I am proposing you could say Object where you have _
17:37	astor	but I would love to see some smart default logic when dispatching on maps. the above would be really elegant if I could express the map properties I wanted directly.
17:37	astor	rhickey: yes I see..
17:40	Chousuke	hmm.
17:40	Chouser	I suppose allowing an pluggable alternative to "isa?" would be one step too meta?
17:43	rhickey	Chouser: it's tricky, as to make multimethods fast they have to have a cache, and that cache has to track changes to the hierarchy, plugging in isa? doesn't solve the cache problem
17:44	Chousuke	maybe it'd make sense to consider a map dispatch-val as matching if it's a subset of the map passed as a parameter. Or is that already doable? :/
17:44	Chouser	rhickey: ah, good point.
17:44	astor	couldn't my example be solved by adding some sort of destructuring support when matching arguments to each defmethod?
17:45	astor	you require that the destructuring have no "nils" for the method to be called.
17:45	astor	destructuring seems to be cacheable to me.
17:46	astor	..or maybe not.
17:46	rhickey	I think the current multimethod capabilities have barely been exercised, so not inclined to enhance yet
17:48	jewel	do you cache at call sites?
17:50	kotarak	I find it difficult to come up with a suitable dispatch method. And how to design the overall structure with derive and friends. Maybe someone can enhance the wiki with a real-world example? Or write a blog post? hinthint ;)
17:52	rhickey	jewel: no, on the methods
17:52	Chouser	I need an simple concrete example of a objects with more than one "type" worth dispatching on.
17:53	jewel	wouldn't call site caches be more effective? is the space penalty too large?
17:54	Chouser	So far my best is vehical class (car, van, truck) and vehical make (Ford, GM, Toyota)
17:54	Chouser	but that's pretty lame.
17:57	Lau_of_DK	Funny, if I type (drop<tab>) SLIME throws a "Stack overflow exception for regex"
17:59	astor	rhickey: I think there needs to be a way to dispatch on Object as you mention. In CLOS, adding random aux arguments that you don't necessarily want to specify a hierarchy for is common, and you can just say 't for those in your method. another thing I haven't figured out is how to disambiguate multiple methods that can be applied. In one screencast, I hear you say that this is possible, but I haven't seen how. Something like CLOS (left-to-right) is what I
18:00	Chouser	astor: did you see (doc prefer-method)
18:00	astor	Chouser: no. I will!
18:06	Lau_of_DK	Question. lets say I have a loooooong string "xyzxyzxyzxyzxyzxyz % abcabc" where I want to drop everything before % in an efficient concise way, how do I do ?
18:06	danlarkin	Lau_of_DK: split on %
18:07	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: hi lau, obvious idea (drop-while #(not= \% %) str)
18:07	Lau_of_DK	there might be others
18:07	Lau_of_DK	kotarak, doesnt that just drop everything thats not % ?
18:08	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: it drops until it encounters %
18:09	Chousuke	the problem is that it doesn't return a string
18:09	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: what you mean is filter
18:09	Lau_of_DK	I confused remove and drop-while Mr. Kota
18:09	Lau_of_DK	You were right
18:10	kotarak	Chousuke is right however. You get a seq back, not a string.
18:10	danlarkin	apply str result
18:10	danlarkin	look ma, no parens!
18:10	Chousuke	you can perhaps use some java method to find the first occurrence of %, then make a substring.
18:11	Lau_of_DK	drop-while worked like a charm, exactly what I needed
18:11	Lau_of_DK	Thanks both of you for the inspiration
18:12	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: eulering again?
18:12	Lau_of_DK	Actually, I wanted to run through the Python Challenge in Clojure, just for the fun of it :)
18:14	astor	Chouser: I don't see prefer-method as being very powerful. Thinking in CLOS-style MOP, there should be a multimethod that gets called when clojure gets confused and that function should disambiguate. then clojure could cache the result of that call. prefer-method seems to imply that one knows beforehand all possible argument combinations to the method, but something like left-to-right is an algorithm to disambiguate.
18:14	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: Show 'em the power of Clojure. :) Have fun.
18:14	Lau_of_DK	Thank you Mr. Kota, and thank you for all your wonderful contributions to both the wiki and clojure-euler.wiki - Its good stuff all of it
18:15	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: thanks
18:15	hiredman	there is a clojure euler wiki?
18:16	kotarak	clojure-euler.wikispaces.com (out of my memory)
18:16	Lau_of_DK	http://clojure-euler.wikispaces.com
18:16	hiredman	nice
18:53	mrsolo_	how fast is clojure
18:53	mrsolo_	?
18:53	hiredman	how fast is the color blue?
18:54	mrsolo_	does it run as fast as java native code most of the time?
18:54	duck1123_	299792458 m/s
18:54	mrsolo_	without hinting?
18:54	mrsolo_	or 1/2 fast?
18:55	Chousuke	I don't lnow, what kind of code?
18:55	Chousuke	know*
18:56	mrsolo_	any kind... just it is just a bit of generalization but i just want a ball part figure
18:56	mrsolo_	web has some clojure performance comparision on fib function that is about it
18:57	hiredman	you need something to compare it to
18:57	hiredman	some context
18:59	mrsolo_	say compares to java native
18:59	duck1123_	Clojure is just as fast as Java except for the times when it is faster or slower
18:59	mrsolo_	say..ranking in greatest language shootout? <duck>
18:59	hiredman	you came to the perfect place to answer that question
19:00	hiredman	obviously clojure is #1
19:00	mrsolo_	scala number is somewhat close to java native.. i assume clojure number is somewhat similar?
19:07	duck1123_	I think I remember hearing Rich saying in one of the screencasts that Clojure is almost as fast as native Java
19:07	duck1123_	who knows what it's like now with AOT
19:07	barn_	I have never pushed clojure, but speed of execution isn't the main goal for most people.
19:08	duck1123_	really the only diffeerence should be what you're doing
19:08	kotarak	Cliff C from Azul posted some numbers on the group.
19:08	barn_	Lol
19:08	barn_	I don't think id being using the Azul numbers
19:08	mrsolo_	it is general langauge characteristic that i like to know
19:08	barn_	Mortals can't own those machines
19:09	mrsolo_	execution speed, memory footprint etc
19:10	barn_	It completely depends on your balance of HLL code vs java libraries
19:10	barn_	I code most everything still in Jython, and the code is 80-95% the speed of java
19:10	barn_	since all the heavy lifting is in libraries
19:11	barn_	But I can write code 4 - 8x faster
19:12	barn_	2hrs vs 8hrs, gives my computer 6 more hours of execution time
19:12	barn_	:)
19:12	hiredman	and computer time is cheaper then people time
19:12	barn_	By leaps and bounds
19:12	barn_	I wish my mobo had 40 dimm slots
19:13	barn_	Side note, but I will share anyway since your captive
19:13	barn_	lol
19:13	hiredman	my blackberry idles all day doing nothing, and it can run some kind of stripped down java
19:14	barn_	I worked on a system that cost the client over 100k per instance, and I was tasked with making sure we could munge gigabytes of data in a program that had a hard limit of 512MB
19:14	barn_	It made absolutely no sense, we charged the client 100K for this software and we could not assume, nor mandate that they had at least 2GB of ram to work with? We could have delivered buckets of ram for no extra charge
19:15	hiredman	heh
19:15	barn_	I had to write code using JDBM to spool intermediate results to disk and do external sorts like I was using tapes
19:15	barn_	It still pains me to think about it
19:16	gnuvince_	Do you guys have any finished projects that you wish you could do again (with Clojure possibly)?
19:17	barn_	I can't use clojure on a commercial project until I am productive as jython
19:19	AWizzArd	is there already something like apropos?
19:20	billc	AWizzArd: find-doc isn't the same; however, it's similar
19:22	gnuvince_	barn_: we're talking "wishing" :)
19:22	gnuvince_	When I first joined the company I work with, it was to help on a network daemon program written in PHP (yes, PHP)
19:22	gnuvince_	I wish I could use Clojure for that now
19:23	barn_	90% of the java projects I was on could have been done in Jython, and so to in Clojure
19:24	barn_	I tried using some of the other schemes but they didn't integrate with java well enough
19:24	Chousuke	hm
19:24	barn_	Clojure is awesome in this regard
19:25	Chousuke	I posted a reply to a question on the group but it didn't appear immediately. Is it normal behaviour for google groups?
19:26	gnuvince_	barn_: yeah. I'm writing a tutorial, and it's amazing to be able to use Java libs natively
19:26	AWizzArd	Chousuke: yes, it can appear within seconds or take one day
19:26	Chousuke	:/
19:26	AWizzArd	often it's fast
19:27	AWizzArd	but a few times I had to wait for hours
19:27	AWizzArd	is there a way to find out in which Clojure version I am? Like (lisp-implementation-version) or (lisp-implementation-name)?
19:28	Chousuke	I posted an answer to the collection containing itself -question; you can emulate with trickery: (def foo [1 2 3 #'foo])
19:59	ReplRat	has anybody been having trouble with swank-clojure over the last day or so? i'm trying to install it and i wonder whether it is tripping over recent Clojure check-ins. when i do (require (quote swank)) i get Unable to resolve symbol: require in this context.
20:02	Chousuke	do you have the most recent versions of both clojure and swank-clojure?
20:02	ReplRat	yeah.
20:02	ReplRat	is there a way to check my clojure version from the repl?
20:02	Chousuke	no.
20:03	Chousuke	This really is a FAQ. :)
20:03	ReplRat	i'm not great with svn but i did svn update and a new build so i'm pretty sure its new.
20:03	ReplRat	where's the FAQ?
20:04	Chousuke	no, I meant, your Question is a FAQ (a frequently asked question) :p
20:04	ReplRat	sorry
20:04	Chousuke	I suppose we could use a FAQ list somewhere.
20:05	Chousuke	but I can't say what's wrong with that. it looks like namespace trouble, but if you have the most recent revisions of everything then it should work :/
20:08	Chousuke	you're trying to setup slime and clojure? or just doing something else with clojure-swank?
20:13	ReplRat	Chousuke: just trying to set up slime and clojure.
20:13	ReplRat	clojure doesn't seem to know how to (require)
20:13	ReplRat	ATM i'm trying to verify that i have the latest clojure.
20:14	Chousuke	you don't need to (require 'swank) in clojure
20:14	Chousuke	this is what you need in your .emacs: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming#Emacs_.2F_Slime_Integration
20:14	ReplRat	it looks like that's what slime is doing though; after a (add-classpath)
20:15	ReplRat	ok i'll read that
21:01	barn_	gnuvince_: I would be interested in proof reading your tutorial
21:01	barn_	What is it on?
21:01	barn_	Collections classes by chance?
21:15	gnuvince_	barn_: the first part is online at http://gnuvince.net
21:15	gnuvince_	barn_: the draft of the second part is half completed
21:16	ReplRat_	Chousuke: I'm pretty sure my Clojure checkout was old. Everything is OK now. Thanks for the help.
21:17	barn_	gnuvince_: reading it now
22:17	duck1123	Does anyone know what the easiest way to get the current time as an xsd:DateTime
22:18	duck1123	it's looking like I need to specify each segment, which leads me to believe there is an easier way