#clojure – 2008-11-10

2008-11-10

00:43	danlarkin	what's a good way to add generic dispatch to my json-encoding function. Like if you've got a way you want to have JFrames encoded then you define it and I'll know to call it. I know I could define a multimethod using #'clojure/class but that ties it to type
08:23	Cark	it's ironic i'm writing a tool to search the meta tags in clojure and i don't know how to add a doc string to multimethods
08:24	kib2	look at that blog post (last paragraph is talking about Clojure) : http://spotless-spots.blogspot.com/2008/11/why-i-like-f.html
08:42	StartsWithK	Cark: (defmulti #^{:doc "doc string"} fn-name dispatch-fn)
08:43	Cark	yay thanks StartsWithK
08:44	StartsWithK	works for defmethod too, (im at rev1086)
08:46	Cark	lisppaste8: url
08:46	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
08:47	lisppaste8	cark pasted "a tool to search docs string and other meta data" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70071
08:48	Cark	if someone has anything to say about it, i'll gladly take it !
10:18	Chouser-away	rhickey: are print-method and print-dup fairly settled down now, or not yet?
10:19	Chouser	well, what I'm asking is if it's a bad time for someone to start looking at pretty-print.
10:20	leafw	can't svn handle branches properly? It's a bit odd to see all this "interim checkin" warnings on the latests commits
10:20	leafw	I would have done them on a separate branch and then cherry-pick them into the master ...
10:21	Chouser	leafw: how well svn handles branches is perhaps a matter of some controversy, but anyway rhickey doesn't like branches.
10:21	Chouser	svn certainly doesn't handle cherry-picking nearly as well as git.
10:21	rhickey	Chouser: basically print-dup removes from print all of the goop required for 'serialization', so print-method goes back to what it was. I'm not sure of the relationship between print-method and a pretty-printer though
10:21	leafw	that is evident. Never mind, just a comment.
10:22	leafw	we have our own git mirror of clojure ... had to checkout an earlier commit today.
10:22	leafw	to avoid the interims.
10:23	Chouser	leafw: yeah, I have a "stable" branch in my git mirror right now, so I can flip back and forth pretty easily.
10:24	rhickey	I didn't check in anything that didn't run, if you have problems you either have to change something to work with the breaking changes or report a problem
10:25	leafw	no obvious problem so far Rick; just didn't want to include a version whose commit mesage was a "warning do not use"
10:25	leafw	in fiji.
10:27	rhickey	leafw: thus the warning, there's absolutely no reason to take head unless it fixes a bug or adds a feature you need
10:27	rhickey	OR - you want to help test the changes
10:27	leafw	I know, I know, I'm shutting up.
11:12	danlarkin	I saw your post about Gorilla, kotarak, congrats on release #1
11:13	kotarak	danlarkin: thanks. The Repl is still, ehm, experimental... I have to work on this. Noticed already some issues.
11:13	danlarkin	now let's get going on Parser! :-D
11:13	kotarak	danlarkin: hehe, sure
11:14	danlarkin	heh, just kidding on the square... no pressure or anything :)
11:17	kotarak	danlarkin: certainly not, this is a hobby. But Parser will get it's time slice in the near future. :)
11:17	danlarkin	woo hoo!
12:20	kib2	kotarak: ping ?
12:21	kotarak	kib2: pong
12:21	kib2	ok, have you tried to compile Vim on Windows with Ruby support ?
12:21	kib2	I've got lots of errors
12:21	kotarak	kib2: the self-installer vims come with Ruby enabled
12:22	kotarak	never compiled vim on windows
12:25	kib2	kotarak: the problem is that I need Python support too, and I have to compile Vim from source to have Python support. But the Ruby one does not work.
12:26	kotarak	kib2: the self-installer vims com with Ruby and Python enabled
12:26	kotarak	kib2: they do it over some dynamic loading thing.
12:26	kotarak	kib2: when it's there it's used, otherwise, well, it's not
12:27	kib2	kotarak: are you sure it comes with native Python support ?
12:27	kotarak	kib2: I think so. But I can't check now, since I'm already at home. But I think they have everything enabled. Also Tcl and Perl. But you can also ask on #vim.
12:29	kib2	kotarak: ok, but last time I've tried, Python was not natively supported.
12:29	kib2	kotarak: see here http://showmedo.com/videos/video?name=1850010&fromSeriesID=185
12:34	Chouser	I don't know how to make this available for review without it being fully public. ...so here it is
12:34	Chouser	http://blog.n01se.net/?p=33 -- Writing a macro: for vs. doseq
12:34	Chouser	if anyone spots any errors, let me know.
12:38	kib2	Chouser : nice blog posts on Clojure !
12:39	Chouser	If by "nice" you mean "too long", then I agree! :-) Thanks, though.
12:41	kotarak	Chouser: awesome. Cosmetics: In the "nested loops" section, the formatting is a bit messed up. It least there is one paragraph in all monospace. Is this intentional?
12:43	Cark	chouser : that's cosmetic too but ...the code divs are very small, hard to read
12:44	Cark	using firefox
12:45	rhickey_	Chouser: very nice, you might want to warn people that doseq a la for is not the most trivial macro
12:46	rhickey_	also another tip about macros (that you observed) they often can and should be written in terms of functions, not a giant syntax-quote
12:52	drewc	rhickey_: amen!
12:55	drewc	the biggest reason is to avoid recompiling the world every time the macro changes, and as a side effect you get clean maintainable code and a functional interface to your abstraction.
13:08	Chouser	thanks, guys. The formatting should be cleaned up now.
13:12	Cark	easier to read, thanks !
13:14	Cark	chooser : ", so until they are you much choose to use my-doseq as shown above."
13:14	rhickey_	Chouser: hmm, the code is huge now for me, with much spillage out of the white box. Camino 1.5.1 OS X 10.5.5
13:14	Cark	that's not making sense
13:15	Cark	there is some spilling here too btw
13:15	Chouser	ok
13:16	Cark	the problem is with this smallish column width you got there !
13:16	Chouser	Cark: grammar fixed
13:16	Chouser	yeah, no kidding.
13:17	Chouser	default Wordpress width. :-/
13:18	Cark	mhh, i can't seem to find a neat way to manage changing state in a complex swing window
13:20	Cark	i'd like to keep the state imutable, and at the same time change the reference in the window
13:20	Cark	is there a field in those swing components that can be used at the programmer's discretion ?
13:21	Cark	like in delphi there was this tag field to every component, and you could store pointers in there
13:26	Cark	ah got it, putClientProperty and getClientProperty !
13:46	askentasken	im implementing prolog in python,clojure and haskell. im thinking i need some state. or soem container to store allf acts and rules. what would that be in Clojure where i dont have traditional OO? im thinking multimethods mgiht be of use in the implementation. Perhaps I just have a : (def State {:rules nil :facts nil})?
13:48	Cark	or a (def state (ref {:rules nil :facts nil}))
13:48	Chouser	or (def rules (ref {})) (def facts (ref {}))
13:53	askentasken	but i want a "struct" clause which canab a rule or a fact. and i want to be able to define new structs within this predefined form. im not making much sense am i? i want to abstract out the defintiion of a rule but be able to define different rules. a Class i python does this nicely. In clojure, what do ido?
13:53	Chouser	probably a hash-map.
13:54	Chouser	clojure has a thing called a struct, but it's really just a performance enhancement of a hash-map.
13:55	sohail	askentasken, a useful model is to understand that clojure does not let the user define new types
13:55	Chouser	(without resorting to proxy or gen-class)
13:56	sohail	you probably wouldn't want to do that too often!
13:57	Chouser	right. proxy and gen-class are generally the wrong tools for defining application-specific data.
13:58	askentasken	how do i define atsruct? i dont get it fromt he API?
13:59	Chouser	askentasken: http://clojure.org/data_structures#toc75
14:00	Chouser	but don't get too distracted by StructMaps. They're really just another kind of PersistentMap, so when designing your solution that's all that really matters.
14:00	Chouser	The Struct part is a small optimization on the same core concept.
14:09	askentasken	and {} is syntactic sugar for hash-map?
14:09	Chouser	yes
14:12	askentasken	ah wait
14:12	askentasken	(def State {:rules [] :facts []})
14:13	askentasken	i can then create new State a lot of times and it is not the same State?
14:14	Cark	by doing this you create a var state, and it has the value you gave to it
14:14	Cark	it's not a good idea to re-def it afterwards
14:14	sohail	I'm told you want to use refs
14:18	askentasken	how do i update the value of a key?
14:19	Chouser	assoc returns a new hash-map with you value updated in it.
14:21	askentasken	#'user/s
14:21	askentasken	user=> s
14:21	askentasken	{:2 [10 10]}
14:21	askentasken	(def s (assoc s :2 (conj (get s :2) 10)))
14:22	askentasken	seemscomplicated for adding a value to a key
14:23	Chouser	(update-in s [:2] conj 10)
14:24	Chouser	but don't use def to update values in application logic -- use an agent or ref for that.
14:25	wwmorgan	askentasken: you could also use java.util.HashMap
14:25	rhickey_	best to define your model and a set of functions that transform your model, then, later, put your model in a ref
14:25	Chousuke	that's throwing away all the concurrency benefits though.
14:25	Chouser	(def s (ref {:2 [10]}))
14:25	Chouser	(dosync (alter s update-in [:2] conj 10))
14:26	askentasken	what is? using refs?
14:26	askentasken	update-in doesnt work like that though
14:26	Chousuke	askentasken: using java.util.HashMap instead of clojure's maps
14:26	rhickey_	wwmorgan: then when you want to run queries in the background while editing your rulebase in a gui you've got threading trouble
14:27	rhickey_	or fact db updated from incoming data feeds, etc etc
14:27	wwmorgan	yes
14:27	rhickey_	If you use the Clojure model from the start then adding these things is easy
14:28	askentasken	(defn add-value [coll key val]
14:28	askentasken	(assoc coll key (conj (get coll key) val)))
14:28	askentasken	well update-in is the same i get but i dont see how to use it
14:28	askentasken	(update-in s [:2] conj 10) -> wrong number of args
14:28	askentasken	and if i do(conj 10) i get wrong nbr of args for update-in
14:28	Chouser	you're probably running from a release version. hang on.
14:28	rhickey_	askentasken: think about (add-fact db fact stuff), yielding new db
14:29	Chouser	(dosync (alter s update-in [:2] #(conj % 10)))
14:29	rhickey_	you should leave the ref out of it until later
14:31	danlarkin	I asked this last night and didn't get any responses (I think everyone was asleep :))... what's a good way to add generic dispatch to my json-encoding function. Like if you've got a way you want to have JFrames encoded then you define it and I'll know to call it. I know I could define a multimethod using #'clojure/class but that ties it to type
14:31	rhickey_	e.g. first define assert-fact, retract-fact, add-rule, drop-rule, all taking and returning a fact/rule base
14:32	rhickey_	danlarkin: you can dispatch on an attribute or metadata
14:34	danlarkin	would dispatching on metadata require adding that key to the metadata for every object you want encoded?
14:35	rhickey_	danlarkin: If you have a default, then no, just for the special cases
14:39	danlarkin	ideally I'd like to have a way to define additional ways to define a dispatch
14:39	danlarkin	but maybe that's just overengineering
14:39	rhickey_	danlarkin: how would you find out about them?
14:40	danlarkin	not sure :)
14:41	rhickey_	one meta option is that dispatch functions can themselves be multimethods
14:43	askentasken	what is the diff between ref and agent?
14:43	rhickey_	askentasken: you've read the docs?
14:48	danlarkin	dispatch functions being multimethods would buy me allowing the user to define an encoding method based on whatever options I choose... class, a key in the metadata, but not their own way of dispatch
14:48	danlarkin	but maybe that's good enough
14:51	rhickey_	danlarkin: you can have your first-line multimethod be spec'ed to return a fn to be called in turn
14:52	rhickey_	get-encoder-getter
14:53	danlarkin	let me whip up a paste to see if I get it
15:02	danlarkin	Heh, I'm getting lost in abstraction, could you show me an example?
15:04	rhickey_	danlarkin: {:encoding-system :mine} {:encoding-system :yours}
15:05	rhickey_	(defmulti get-encoding method :encoding-method)
15:06	rhickey_	(defmethod get-encoding-method :mine [_] my-dispatch)
15:06	rhickey_	(defmulti my-dispatch whatever-I-want)
15:07	AWizzArd	What I didn't understood, regarding AOT was, if it will be possible to reaload .class files. It sounded as if the jvm does not allow this.
15:07	rhickey_	(defn encode [foo] ((get-encoding-method foo) foo))
15:08	rhickey_	AWizzArd: jvm doesn't
15:08	AWizzArd	okay, so for patching an application one should restart it
15:09	rhickey_	AWizzArd: no
15:09	rhickey_	AWizzArd: Clojure works hard to provide an indirection that avoids the rigidity of the JVM class system in most cases
15:10	AWizzArd	I see.
15:10	rhickey_	right now only genclass sigs have the same static nature as the rest of Java, even their method implementations can be dynamically redefined
15:11	rhickey_	but it's nasty and hard
15:11	walters	AWizzArd: JDWP allows it in some limited circumstances
15:12	walters	AWizzArd: there is some initial work in openjdk in allowing classes to implement new interfaces at runtime as well
15:13	danlarkin	rhickey_: thanks, I understand now. I appreciate it
15:13	AWizzArd	I see... well, it's nice that rhickey_ already has some good ideas about it. Although honestly I regard it as acceptable to restart an application from time to time. When Lisp compilers get updated (Allegro, Lispworks, sbcl) then they all need a new version/a restart and can't hotfix themselves while running.
15:14	drewc	AWizzArd: i have an application (still) running sbcl 0.8.something that has yet to be restarted.
15:15	drewc	AWizzArd: i do, of course, have to keep around an old emacs/slime installation for the odd patch, and it could be restarted without harm or loss of income.. but it's been an experiment :)
15:16	AWizzArd	nice :-)
15:16	drewc	and i could see applications for which any downtime is not acceptable.. i'm just glad i don't have to write them! :)
15:19	AWizzArd	I'm glad about my internal software.. it needs some downtimes at nights, but in reality the system is even working them. Never rebooted so far..
15:28	bradbev	rhickey_: I was trying to make prettier slime backtraces by changing user.foo_QMARK___1234.invoke -> user/foo?. I used a heuristic to do it, but is there an internal map of java symbol names to clojure names?
15:31	rhickey_	bradbev: clojure.lang.Compiler/CHAR_MAP
15:32	bradbev	oh, I found that. I was really meaning the __1234 part
15:32	bradbev	I assume that is a gensym, and I can't rely on it being 4 digits
15:32	rhickey_	bradbev: right
15:34	bradbev	actually, I guess I use #"__\d+" to remove it, so the amount of digits won't really matter
15:42	SnowBuddy	the lazy programmer in me wants to know if macro-fu is necessary for Clojure programming. i mean, unless i totally don't understand the point of macros, they don't seem like a requirement for getting things done. i'm usually wrong, so could somebody correct me?
15:43	AWizzArd	SnowBuddy: you never need macros. In all cases you can solve your programs with pure functional programming.
15:43	AWizzArd	The difference is, that macros allow you to remove ' and #(..) and (fn []) from your code
15:43	SnowBuddy	how much of a difference is that?
15:44	AWizzArd	(if (= a b) (fn [] (then)) (fn [] (else))) vs (if (= a b) (then) (else))
15:45	jgracin	does the work on enabling AOT imply there will be a nicer/easier way to do what gen-and-save-class does?
15:45	AWizzArd	For some constructs it is ugly to pass in functions, and that's why macros win in such situations.
15:46	SnowBuddy	ok, that helps. i still think i'll avoid that part of the language. i'm not smart enough for functional programming, much less macros on top of it ;)
15:48	AWizzArd	in the end you can solve the program by functional programming and then have a one-line macro which just calls your functions and therewith removes the need for manually making expressions lazy
15:49	SnowBuddy	can you run that by me again? :P
15:51	AWizzArd	solve the problem I meant
15:51	SnowBuddy	heh, i didn't even see that. it's the whole latter part that i didn't get
15:52	AWizzArd	a macro does not evaluate its arguments
15:52	AWizzArd	(if true (print "Hello") (print "World")) does print only one of them
15:52	AWizzArd	if "if" were a function then always both strings would get printed.
15:53	AWizzArd	but you can make them lazy.. stop them from being evaluated
15:54	AWizzArd	(if-function bool #(print "Hello") #(print "World")) - in this case you can decide which one you want to call inside if-function.
16:00	bradbev	the macros section in "Practical Common Lisp" was illuminating for me. Skim read that to get a feeling for what macros can do for you, SnowBuddy
16:01	SnowBuddy	that's the problem. i feel i understand what they can do, but i don't see myself using them. it's kind of like inheritance in C++; i fully understand it, but so few of my problems require that feature
16:02	SnowBuddy	but with all of the talk about macros, i thought i might have been missing something
16:05	Chousuke	at the very least, you can use macros to make your code more expressive
16:05	alec	SnowBuddy: I find myself using macros in Clojure much less than in Common Lisp because Clojure provides easier lambdas and general sequence operators
16:07	Chousuke	rather than writing the logic as is, you can write something that expresses more clearly the meaning of your code, and under the hood expands into something clojure can actually run.
16:07	SnowBuddy	speaking of general sequence operators, let's say i want to print the namespaces from (all-ns) all on a separate line. i can do it, but everything i've come up with seems overly complicated. is there a quick and easy way with the standard functions like (this doesn't work quite right btw) "(apply println (all-ns))"?
16:10	wwmorgan	SnowBuddy: (doseq n (all-ns) (println n)), before revision 1090. (doseq [n (all-ns)] (println n)) otherwise
16:11	SnowBuddy	Why the brackets in the second version?
16:12	wwmorgan	the syntax changed to make it more consistent with for, let, loop, etc
16:12	SnowBuddy	so will the first not work anymore?
16:12	wwmorgan	I'm pretty sure the first form is broken as of rev 1090
16:12	Chousuke	yeah, it is
16:12	Chousuke	it throws an exception I think
16:13	SnowBuddy	poo diddles, i guess i need to update my installation
16:13	Chousuke	for now, stay with revision 1088
16:13	Chousuke	apparently HEAD is quite volatile at the moment :P
16:13	SnowBuddy	how do i know which revision i'm on/
16:13	SnowBuddy	?
16:14	Chousuke	if your code works, you're pre-1089 :P
16:15	albino	svn? svn info
16:15	SnowBuddy	i just downloaded the zip from sourceforge...
16:19	wwmorgan	SnowBuddy: the sf download lags behind head usually
16:23	Lau_of_DK	If I have a seq-of-seqs that I want to output, I would think (map println seqs) would do the trick, but it takes the liberty to throw out a "nil" between every seq, why ?
16:24	wwmorgan	Lau_of_DK: because println returns nil, is my guess. You'd be better off using doseq anyway as map is lazy
16:26	Lau_of_DK	THanks wwmorgan
16:26	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: rule of thumb: side-effects => do*
16:26	Lau_of_DK	Good one
16:42	SnowBuddy	you know what would be awesome? an example for each of the standard functions/macros in the documentation.
16:43	Zak	That would be awesome. I bet if you contributed some good ones, they would become part of the official documentation.
16:43	SnowBuddy	i would, but i'm reasonably sure they wouldn't be good quite yet ;)
16:45	Zak	I know what you mean, but don't sell yourself too short. I'm still a Clojure novice, but having experience with other Lisps I think I have a very good grasp of the parts that are similar.
16:49	SnowBuddy	hmm, is there any reason why the output appears to be sorted? (doseq x (take 10 (iterate rand 100)) (println (int x)))
16:51	wwmorgan	snowbuddy: you want (repeatedly #(rand 100)), not (iterate rand 100). In the latter case you're feeding smaller and smaller numbers into rand
16:51	Lau_of_DK	rhickey_, when are these 'interim' svn updates expected to be completed?
16:51	Lau_of_DK	ls
16:52	SnowBuddy	how's that? does iterate send the result of the previous rand call to the next iteration?
16:52	Zak	Yes, that's what iterate does.
16:53	Zak	Iterate returns a seq of (f x), (f (f x)), (f (f (f x)))...
16:53	SnowBuddy	gotcha
16:54	SnowBuddy	so what would i use iterate for?
16:55	drewc	iteration?
16:55	drewc	:)
16:55	Cark	(iterate inc 0) = all the positive integers
16:55	Cark	that's usefull
16:55	SnowBuddy	drewc: not in any form i'm familiar with ;)
16:56	Cark	(zipmap (iterate inc 0) (enumeration-seq (-> table .getColumnModel .getColumns)))
16:56	Cark	a map from index to table column
16:57	drewc	SnowBuddy: FWIW i thought i was in #lisp, where ITERATE is indeed for iterating in the usual sense :)
16:57	SnowBuddy	:D
16:57	SnowBuddy	bbiab
16:57	SnowBuddy	time to go home
16:59	kib2	gnuvince, do you wrote your new tutorial ?
17:01	albino	What's the word on the clojure book? Has anyone looked at it yet?
17:02	gnuvince_	kib2: not yet, haven't had time to write this weekend.
17:03	kib2	gnuvince : ok, i'll wait
17:25	roblally	I've been reading Pragmatic Clojure - it is very good.
17:25	roblally	Still a work in progress, but worth acquiring even at this stage.
17:49	bradbev	I use Slime. If I have a recursive function & I re-evaluate it - ie, to stop recursing - the definition doesn't take effect in the running function. Is this a Slime problem, or an artifact due to recur not looking up the function by symbol
17:51	Chousuke	latter, I think.
17:52	bradbev	doh
17:52	bradbev	It would be handy to be able to do that, perhaps make it a global property some how?
17:53	bradbev	otherwise you can't edit & fix recursive functions on the fly like you can with other funcs
17:53	SimonAdameit	Hi
17:58	bradbev	this also applies to agent functions that resend themselves to agents, the clojure symbol is looked up at compile time rather than runtime. That is good for speed & local functions, but annoying for development & global defs. Thoughts rhickey_ ?
18:02	bradbev	nope, I lied about the agent thing
18:02	bradbev	only recursive functions
18:04	rhickey_	bradbev: that seems backwards - you can redefine recursive fns and see it rught away - but self-sends from agents should use #'action-name to send the var rather than its current value
18:07	lisppaste8	bradbev pasted "weird" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70099
18:07	bradbev	this is running via slime, which I think spawns a thread for each eval - is the def thread local then?
18:08	rhickey_	no, def is global
18:09	rhickey_	but recur is not a self-call but a direct loop
18:09	bradbev	so the goto is calculated once at compiletime
18:10	rhickey_	bradbev: it's a loop, not a function call
18:11	bradbev	true.... and if it were in a (loop...) I probably would have been quicker. As a tail-call mimic I didn't clue into that as much
18:12	bradbev	so for recur there is no way to fix on the fly :(
18:14	bradbev	thanks for the help
18:14	rhickey_	sure
18:15	bradbev	BTW, I'm really liking Clojure quite a lot - thanks for all the effort!
18:16	rhickey_	great - you're welcome!
18:17	danm__	+1
18:23	Zak	I'm having trouble trying to use swank with Clojure. Before I ask any detailed questions, will it work with 20080916, or do I need a recent snapshot?
18:24	Chousuke	I think you need something more recent. however, not the most recent.
18:24	Chousuke	go with r1088
18:35	Zak	I tried r1088 and I'm still getting the following exception: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: *e in this context
18:46	rhickey_	psst - wanna try AOT compiler? rev 1093 9
18:46	rhickey_	(for the daring only)
18:47	Chouser	rhickey_: using #'action is so that the action is looked up when the agent actually run rather than when it's queued?
18:50	rhickey_	Chouser: when you say (send agt foo) the fn value is sent, so if you change the var foo, it's not seen by the agent
18:50	rhickey_	Chouser: vs (send agt #'foo) which sends the var itself,, agent will get current value whenever it uses it
18:50	bradbev	I guess AOT means that we'd be able to deploy a JAR full of class files generated by Clojure?
18:51	rhickey_	bradbev: yup
18:51	bradbev	nice!
18:51	rhickey_	Clojure itself runs without the source for core.clj et al
18:51	Chouser	rhickey_: in the case of an agent sending the same action to itself, though, it'll still pick up a change in the var, just perhaps one iteration late, right?
18:52	bradbev	So you're not counting core.clj as part of Clojure now? Very Scheme of you!
18:52	rhickey_	Chouser: only if you use #'
18:52	rhickey_	bradbev: I count it, just highlighting that even the bootstrap works from classfiles generated by AOT compiler
18:53	gnuvince_	Interesting times ahead in Clojure Land :)
18:53	bradbev	oh, I see - I thought you were making a joke :)
18:54	Chousuke	I wish git svn clone wasn't so slow ;/
18:54	Chouser	time from shell prompt to repl was about 2 seconds. after pre-compiling, about 0.8 seconds.
18:55	rhickey_	Chouser: and java HelloWorld?
18:56	rhickey_	startup was never long for me, but people with old machines have said it's several seconds - interested in the speedup for them
18:57	mibu	eh, clojure is mentioned in a +4 slashdot comment: http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/11/10/0453229
18:59	rhickey_	Clojure has been mostly ignored by slashdot so far, interesting how Ioke gets an article at this stage of its development
18:59	gnuvince_	Gah!
18:59	gnuvince_	I forgot to push my blog articles from work :-/
19:00	Chousuke	rhickey_: well, I guess no-one has actually tried posting a submission about clojure yet.
19:00	mibu	rhickey, maybe ioke is underdeveloped, but it got PR
19:01	Chousuke	and maybe now is not the best time to slashdot clojure
19:01	rhickey_	Chousuke: right
19:02	mibu	rhickey, do you track website hits, svn hit, google group user count, download count, etc to see when there is a surge of interest?
19:02	gnuvince_	It's funny the difference between communities
19:02	gnuvince_	Reddit has had Clojure articles for a year now, and quite a few in the past weeks.
19:02	rhickey_	mibu: yes, there are some measures
19:02	gnuvince_	I'm not sure if it made an appearance on Digg or Slashdot.
19:02	mibu	rhickey, when was the biggest surge?
19:03	Chouser	java hello world (short classpath, don't know if that matters) 0.12 seconds
19:03	mibu	slashdot is a lot more mainstream than reddit. it's more of a java crowd than a lisp crowd.
19:04	rhickey_	mibu: seems so
19:05	danlarkin	reddit's gone down the tubes in the past year
19:05	rhickey_	https://sourceforge.net/project/stats/detail.php?group_id=137961&ugn=clojure&type=prdownload&mode=12months&package_id=0
19:05	Chousuke	hmm... judging from the git svn clone output, it looks like you pretty much abandoned the CLI port of clojure at revision 261 :)
19:06	rhickey_	http://sourceforge.net/project/stats/detail.php?group_id=137961&ugn=clojure&mode=12months&type=svn
19:07	bradbev	Is there a good bridge between CLI & JVM? It should be possible. Sensible... maybe not.
19:07	danlarkin	wow october!
19:07	mibu	rhickey: was there a single event that made it surge like that?
19:08	gnuvince_	Wasn't it the Boston Lisp Talk?
19:08	rhickey_	Boston Lisp and JVM Summit
19:09	mibu	gnuvince, that was an actual event. but it's not an event until someone posts something about it on the web. you know, a blog entry, a mention on slashdot, a high rated reddit entry, etc...
19:09	rhickey_	http://clojure.org/space/stats/overview/2008
19:10	gnuvince_	Nice graphs
19:10	rhickey_	only started using that site in June
19:10	mibu	great graphs. very interesting.
19:11	mibu	that spike in the middle of october, which blog post/site mention caused it?
19:11	gnuvince_	mibu: Reddit had some noise about both events.
19:14	rhickey_	Between Boston Lisp and Lisp50 at OOPSLA, I think Lispers have embraced Clojure, plus the one friend tells two others effect is kicking in, more experienced users can tell richer stories, lots of factors.
19:16	rhickey_	the group membership and message volume is taking off as well
19:18	Zak	Is there any documentation for the AOT compiler or should I just read the source code?
19:18	rhickey_	Zak - I put some tips in the checkin message
19:19	rhickey_	basically, your code must conform to the new lib format - my.fancy.lib should be in my/fancy/lib.clj in classpath
19:19	mibu	i'm fascinated with how a small number of single events causes a surge of interest in things.
19:19	rhickey_	you can compile it with (compile 'my.fancy.lib)
19:20	rhickey_	mibu: it used to be a lot clearer, now there are so many mentions in different places - like last week O think there was a hit due to mentions at #rubyconf
19:21	Zak	I think a lot of times there's latent interest, but some missing feature keeps people from using a project.
19:21	rhickey_	zak: then there will be classfiles in ./classes
19:22	rhickey_	Zak: yeah, and different communities with different awareness levels
19:23	mibu	it's interesting if there will be a 1.0 adoption surge.
19:23	rhickey_	For AOT to be generally useful, the lib fns need to use the classfiles, as per RT.loadLib, and clojure-contrib will have to move to the new dir structure
19:24	rhickey_	I'm ready for people to start trying that
19:26	Zak	For example, I have a future project planned for which I'm probably going to use Clojure. It will be a proprietary desktop app, for which I would like to use AOT compilation and proguard or something like it.
19:26	rhickey_	what's a good open source Java decompiler?
19:31	walters	rhickey_: i spent a good hour or two searching for one with little luck for something that looked modern and sane, if you find one let me know =) however I did find this very useful: http://asm.objectweb.org/eclipse/index.html
19:33	rhickey_	well, people concerned with decompilation can now try it on the AOT code
19:33	walters	rhickey_: though this one looked the most promising, i didn't try it though (aside from the applet): http://jode.sourceforge.net/
19:34	rhickey_	walters: looks pretty old
19:34	walters	yeah, like i said that was the most promising out of a rather sad lot...
19:36	walters	rhickey_: the other trick i found useful was ASM's verifier, not sure if you're using that or not
19:36	walters	since openjdk's verifier emits nearly useless error messages
19:37	rhickey_	ASM's verifier doesn't produce Java source for the program, does it?
19:37	rhickey_	ASMifier produces the Java code needed to get ASM to emit the bytecode
19:38	walters	no; this is in the more general scope of "debugging tools for people generating java bytecode"
19:38	rhickey_	walters: right, I use that myself :)
19:38	albino	http://java.decompiler.free.fr/
19:38	walters	i'm not talking about ASMifier but CheckClassAdapter
19:41	rhickey_	walters: ditto
19:42	bradbev	anybody know anything about java non-blocking sockets? I'm accepting on my server socket, then using a new selector for each client connection, but the problem is that select won't block on the sockets, even though they have no bytes pending. Argh!
19:52	rhickey_	albino: that one doesn't show anything useful for the Clojure-generated code
19:55	rhickey_	thanks for the pointer, looks nice
19:56	albino	well that sucks
19:57	albino	The only other one that my friends are telling me is good is JAD
19:59	Chouser	so require and friends are updated yet?
19:59	rhickey_	Chouser: not yet
20:05	lisppaste8	Chouser pasted "updating the action of a self-sending agent" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70104
20:06	rhickey_	Chouser: I've added a loadLib method to RT, which loads from a classfile if available and newer than the source
20:06	Chouser	ah, ok.
20:06	Chouser	and that must be what Repl's using at startup
20:07	Chouser	as for self-sending agents, I must be misunderstanding you.
20:08	Chouser	that paste demonstrates what i was expecting, not what I thought you were saying.
20:13	gnuvince_	Is there a way to import all the classes in a package? something like (import '(org.foo.bar *))?
20:13	rhickey_	Chouser: right, I was remembering when I first did the ants, it was the case that a reference to act inside act was resolved to "this", and not via a deref of var #'act. So #'act is only needed when a fn will be held onto, like in a data structure
20:14	rhickey_	gnuvince: no
20:14	gnuvince_	ok
20:14	rhickey_	gnuvince: would just make a mess in the ns
20:14	rhickey_	since they are reified
20:15	gnuvince_	rhickey_: that's fine, I'm just playing with a class in the REPL and it would've been quicker than type 7-8 class names.
20:15	gnuvince_	But it's no big deal
20:15	rhickey_	there's also been some talk about leveraging the imports for more inference: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/5c9a008c794b193d
20:16	rhickey_	* imports could negate that optimization
20:16	gnuvince_	ok
20:21	Chouser	rhickey_: thanks, that makes sense.
20:22	rhickey_	Chouser: sorry for the misinfo
21:58	lisppaste8	danlarkin pasted "generic dispatch" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70110
21:59	danlarkin	there we go, that's what I want to be able to do
22:44	slava	erg: what a surprise to see you here
22:47	slava	hi rhickey
22:53	rhickey	slava: hi
22:54	danlarkin	ah rhickey, just the man I need... here's what I'm aiming for... http://paste.lisp.org/display/70110 - can it be done with multimethods or do I have to create my own method of dispatching and keep a state-holding variable around on thread-local or something
22:56	slava	rhickey: are we going to see clojure in the language shootout at some point?
22:57	rhickey	slava: that's not something I'd spend my time on, but I imagine someone will at some point
23:12	rhickey	danlarkin: I'm not sure I get it
23:21	danlarkin	rhickey: it'd be nice for the user to add a dispatcher that returns nil or a keyword, and then be able to define a multimethod on that keyword