#clojure – 2008-10-31

2008-10-31

00:00	wwmorgan	bradbev_: nope, just zipped. You can do a jar tf to find the path of the clojure file you want to load
00:01	bradbev_	I guess I'm still confused then. why do I need the contrib jar file in my path? Can't I manually go & load-file the contribs I need? (which is what I thought I'd done)
00:03	wwmorgan	you could, but it's much nicer to do (ns your-project (:use (clojure xml))). Also it makes your code more portable
00:04	bradbev_	wwmorgan: ok, I get it then. Before when I was just messing about I must have missed compiling a file. Can you change the classpath at runtime?
00:05	wwmorgan	bradbev_: there's add-classpath, but it might not work in this situation
00:06	bradbev_	ok. Package management is a bit immature right now then? Not that CL is very much better
00:08	wwmorgan	I think the ns macro handles most use cases. Is there something you're trying to do that you don't think it covers?
00:10	bradbev_	no, I'm just learning at the moment, but it seems odd to me so far :) Would one normally put all their jar files in the same place & then just add that directory to the classpath?
00:13	Chouser	bradbev_: java requires each jar to be listed in the classpath
00:13	wwmorgan	I use enclojure, which runs in netbeans. When you start up the Repl in the IDE it looks up all your dependencies and supplies them as a command-line argument to the Repl, like java -cp /foo/bar/baz.jar:/foo/bar/qut.jar:/foo/bar/clojure.jar clojure.lang.Repl. So everything's available from the start
00:13	Chouser	there's another command-line flag, though, hang on...
00:14	bradbev_	I hadn't heard of enclojure before...
00:15	wwmorgan	if you like megalithic IDEs then check it out. It's pretty OK
00:15	Chouser	-Djava.ext.dirs
00:15	Chouser	that lets you specify a directory full of .jars
00:17	bradbev_	Chouser: that's awesome
00:17	bradbev_	wwmorgan: I'm more of an emacs guy now
00:18	Chouser	I haven't used it yet. I didn't learn about it until I had figured out pretty well how to cope with -cp
00:20	wwmorgan	anyway, you don't need to make jars to develop your own multi-file application. :use and :require will traverse a normal directory structure too
00:21	wwmorgan	then to distribute you jar the whole thing up and everything still works
00:21	bradbev_	nice, I didn't know that
00:23	bradbev_	so the namespace clojure.contrib.zip_filter.xml maps to the directory structure clojure/contrib/zip_filter/xml - is that enforced or just convention? And when I require clojure....filter.xml how does it know which clj file to load?
00:26	wwmorgan	it maps to clojure/contib/zip_filter/xml/xml.clj
00:27	bradbev_	so only one file per directory then
00:28	wwmorgan	in general yes.
00:28	bradbev_	thanks for the info, some of this is starting to come back from my java at school 10 years ago
00:28	wwmorgan	more correctly: one file that you can :use or :require per directory
00:30	Chouser	the specific place where it looks for a .clj file when given a namespace may be changing soon.
00:30	wwmorgan	if I have /foo/bar/baz.clj and /foo/bar/baz_helper.clj, I can do (ns foo.bar.baz (:load "baz_helper.clj")) in baz.clj
00:31	wwmorgan	but that might be "wrong"
00:31	bradbev_	:)
00:31	Chouser	wwmorgan: actually, I think that's currently "right".
00:31	wwmorgan	oh sweet, cause I've been doing it _everywhere_
00:32	Chouser	Part of the argument for the directory structure was to allow multiple files in the same directory to contribute to a single namespace.
00:32	wwmorgan	yes
00:32	Chouser	but like I said, that might be changing with the AOTC stuff.
00:32	Chouser	If you have good use cases for it, speak up.
00:32	Chouser	(not now, but when rhickey's listening. ;-)
00:33	bradbev_	AOTC?
00:33	Chouser	ahead of time compilation
00:33	bradbev_	nice
00:33	Chouser	generating .class files from .clj files
00:41	albino	what's the time frame on AOT? I would like it so I could use it for the Android the way the Scala people do
00:45	Chouser	last I heard it was "on hold" until after the election.
00:46	Chouser	my personal guess is it's be available to play with a couple weeks after that, but who knows.
00:46	wwmorgan	I don't know anything about Android, but the way it works now wouldn't work?
00:47	wwmorgan	java application that compiles to a .class file loads clojure code, get a var and invokes that fn?
00:50	Chouser	the problem is that .class files have to be converted ("compiled") to android's bytecode
00:50	abrooks	Dalvik bytecode, technically.
00:51	wwmorgan	oh I see, so all the bytecode generation is broken
00:52	Chouser	yeah, it'd generate JVM bytecode at runtime and then ... ?
00:53	abrooks	Where the JVM is stack based, the Dalvik VM is register based. I don't know how limiting this ultimately is (I haven't given it much thought) but I suspect that widens the gap between porting Java to the DVM and languages that specifically care about compiling their own code.
00:53	bradbev_	Am I right in saying that android prevents runtime code generation?
00:53	Chouser	bradbev_: that may also be true, but it's not necessary to cause clojure trouble.
00:54	abrooks	bradbev_: That would probably depend on the class loader if they have a similar model.
00:54	Chouser	abrooks: but they already compile JVM bytecode to Dalvik, so the register thing must be a solved problem?
00:55	abrooks	Chouser: They do? I know they compiled Java to Dalvik. I hadn't heard about JVM bytecode.
00:56	Chouser	that's why compiling .clj to .class is going to be at all helpful
00:56	Chouser	for android
00:57	abrooks	Hm... Interesting (presuming it's accurate): http://rebelwithoutamouse.blogspot.com/2007/11/dalvik-googles-workaround-for-suns-jvm.html
00:57	abrooks	"The Android SDK does not compile your Java source code into Dalvik's bytecode directly, but it first uses a regular java compiler to generate regular java bytecode and then converts that bytecode into Dalvik's bytecode"
00:58	abrooks	Seems like I should have known that.
01:30	lisppaste8	sunwukong pasted "printing in a proxy" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69490
01:30	sunwukong	seems like I cannot print from a proxy - any idea why?
01:35	Chouser	sunwukong: works for me.
01:35	Chouser	each time I click the button I see a new "Hello" print in my repl window.
01:36	Chouser	I'm using a plain repl in a term window.
01:37	sunwukong	thanks, I'll try it, maybe it's just some slime thing
01:38	sunwukong	yes, from plain repl it works for me, too
01:51	sohail	so there isn't any real way to pre-compile clojure code yet is there? my app takes 3 seconds to get to main...
01:55	Chouser	right
01:56	Chouser	it's like emacs -- just keep reusing the same process :-)
01:57	sohail	Chouser :-(
01:58	sohail	so no save-clojure-and-die planned?
02:06	Chouser	no, but AOTC is planned -- true compilation of .clj to .class
02:46	Pupeno	Good morning.
03:09	sohail	Chouser, cool, I look forward to it!
03:40	lisppaste8	sohail pasted "right or wrong way to write a while loop?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69495
04:22	Lau_of_DK	Morning gents
04:22	arbscht	hi lau
04:49	Lau_of_DK	Java guys, why is this
04:50	Lau_of_DK	static {
04:50	Lau_of_DK	com.trolltech.qt.Utilities.loadQtLibrary("QtCore");
04:50	Lau_of_DK	com.trolltech.qt.Utilities.loadQtLibrary("QtNetwork");
04:50	Lau_of_DK	}
04:50	Lau_of_DK	not the same as this
04:50	Lau_of_DK	(. com.trolltech.qt.Utilities (loadQtLibrary "QtCore"))
04:50	Lau_of_DK	(. com.trolltech.qt.Utilities (loadQtLibrary "QtNetwork"))
04:52	Lau_of_DK	(it compiles fine, but produces no effect)
04:53	Lau_of_DK	The question is probably this. How do I mimic the static { ... } ?
04:54	tWip	static block is run after the class is loaded
04:54	Lau_of_DK	oh
04:54	Lau_of_DK	Thats important
04:54	tWip	I don't know why that should matter as long as you do the calls before using anything
04:55	Lau_of_DK	It matters because this is a patch for a bug in Webkit
04:55	Lau_of_DK	Do you know how to do a static in Clojure?
04:55	tWip	I don't know how that would apply as clojure isn't class based in the same manner
04:56	tWip	couldn't you just do those calls before defining anything else?
04:56	Lau_of_DK	I can, but that didnt work, hence the question
04:56	tWip	oh ok
04:57	tWip	well I'm afraid I don't know more about this subject as that seems to be native interfacing issue
04:58	Lau_of_DK	Alright
05:58	AWizzArd	Moin
07:18	Lau_of_DK	cemerick, can you port a static {} clause to Clojure
07:18	Lau_of_DK	?
07:20	cemerick	Lau_of_DK: that's sort of a non sequitur; there's no static initialization in clojure, everything is dynamic
07:20	cemerick	(modulo whatever is going to come out of AOT, perhaps)
07:20	Lau_of_DK	So what do I do when I have Java code that requires to be static ?
07:21	cemerick	no code requires a static invocation context -- static blocks are just a convenient method for executing code once when a class is first loaded
07:22	cemerick	You can have clojure code executed just once when a clj file is first loaded by making it a top-level form...
07:24	Lau_of_DK	oh
07:24	Lau_of_DK	I tried that, but it didnt work, so I figured static was the magic
07:24	Lau_of_DK	<Lau_of_DK> Java guys, why is this
07:24	Lau_of_DK	<Lau_of_DK> static {
07:24	Lau_of_DK	<Lau_of_DK> com.trolltech.qt.Utilities.loadQtLibrary("QtCore");
07:24	Lau_of_DK	<Lau_of_DK> com.trolltech.qt.Utilities.loadQtLibrary("QtNetwork");
07:24	Lau_of_DK	<Lau_of_DK> }
07:24	Lau_of_DK	<Lau_of_DK> not the same as this
07:25	Lau_of_DK	<Lau_of_DK> (. com.trolltech.qt.Utilities (loadQtLibrary "QtCore"))
07:25	Lau_of_DK	<Lau_of_DK> (. com.trolltech.qt.Utilities (loadQtLibrary "QtNetwork"))
07:25	Lau_of_DK	<Lau_of_DK> (it compiles fine, but produces no effect)
07:26	cemerick	totally a style point, but doing (com.trolltech.qt.Utilities/loadQtLibrary "QtCore") is more idiomatic at this point
07:26	cemerick	I assume those calls load some native libs or something?
07:26	tWip	well I guess you could have your own main, or class you touch in Java that has that static block
07:27	tWip	but I fail to see how the mere staticness of that code affects anything... as long as ordering is correct
07:28	cemerick	yeah, a static block is just like any other java code, except it does not execute within the context of an instance ("this", etc)
07:29	tWip	Lau_of_DK: have you tried having that in a classname as static? then doing (Class/forName "my.class.with.StaticCode")
07:30	tWip	in a class that is
07:30	tWip	that should execute your static block as the class is loaded
07:32	cemerick	That really should be no different than what Lau_of_DK pasted above. If it is, then it'd be interesting to find out why.
07:32	Lau_of_DK	Just trying to understand what you guys are saying. cemerick thanks for the style point, I had no idea that was a possibility
07:32	tWip	yeah I don't believe that it will make a difference... just to prove a point :)
07:33	tWip	it may be some weird jvm bug/issue
07:33	Lau_of_DK	user=> (com.trolltech.qt.Utilities/loadQtLibrary "QtCore")
07:33	Lau_of_DK	nil
07:33	Lau_of_DK	user=> (com.trolltech.qt.Utilities/loadQtLibrary "QtNetwork")
07:33	Lau_of_DK	nil
07:33	Lau_of_DK	user=> (main)
07:33	Lau_of_DK	com.trolltech.qt.designer.QUiLoaderException: Failed to load class (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
07:34	Lau_of_DK	http://lists.trolltech.com/pipermail/qt-jambi-interest/2008-March/000096.html
07:34	Lau_of_DK	read that, and the previous post
07:36	cemerick	Lau_of_DK: I don't know anything about jambi. Depending on what loadQtLibrary actually does, this might be a relevant issue: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/98714931a8edef1c
07:36	tWip	but your error seems different than the one discussed on the list
07:38	cemerick	yeah, "Failed to load class" sounds like a classpath or path issue?
07:46	Lau_of_DK	Im not sure what it is, but it directly relates to including QWebKit in your dialog
07:46	Lau_of_DK	And this is a known bug, which they solve by the static {}.
07:47	Lau_of_DK	cemerick, the link you provided may be related, but I dont see it presenting a fix ?
07:48	AWizzArd	rhickey: is there a way to "overload" syntax that is used for lists, vectors and maps? So, (sorted-map ..) returns a tree map, but one can use all functions that work on hash maps as well, and it prints the same. Can I add another tree in such a way as well?
07:50	rhickey	AWizzArd: yes, that's how it works. If you implement IPersistentMap your map will work like all of the others, with all functions that take maps, destructuring, everything
07:50	cemerick	Lau_of_DK: no, I didn't say that there was a clean fix yet -- looks like rhickey and Stephen are on it, at least for the use case(s) that they have
07:50	Lau_of_DK	ok
07:51	cemerick	If I were you, I'd make sure your classpath and path are configured properly, as the QUiLoaderException you pasted is different than what was in that mailing list post.
07:51	AWizzArd	rhickey: that's good news :-)
07:52	Lau_of_DK	cemerick, I've placed all the QtJambi.jars in my standard /clojure/libs dir, so that shouldnt be a problem
07:52	Lau_of_DK	And I connect the 2, because I can use every other widget in the book, except for WebKit
07:52	cemerick	Lau_of_DK: have you configured your path? I presume there's some native libs that need to be on your path for stuff like that to work.
07:54	Lau_of_DK	configured my path ?
07:54	Lau_of_DK	As far as I know, loading the .jars is all thats needed - which in turn, is all Ive done
07:54	Lau_of_DK	All my imports, incl. Webkit, work fine
07:55	cemerick	Lau_of_DK: #2 in the list @ http://lists.trolltech.com/pipermail/qt-jambi-interest/2008-March/000096.html says that you have to add some path(s) to your PATH env var
07:56	Lau_of_DK	Yes, but they are 2 seperate solutions, you pick 1
07:56	cemerick	OK, but perhaps #2 will provide you with an interim solution.
07:57	Lau_of_DK	I didnt, I tried adding /bin to path
07:57	Lau_of_DK	Java loads only jars right, .so files and such are not loaded ?
07:57	cemerick	no, Java links into native libs all the time as a matter of course. Especially so when you're bringing in libraries that come with native libs.
08:02	Pupeno-G	Hello.
08:02	Pupeno-G	When you use a little Java program to bootstrap a clojure application, do you need this program to compile and load all the Clojure files?
08:02	tWip	how would you do that?
08:03	tWip	all the same dynamic features are available from repl and any embedded use afaik
08:04	Pupeno-G	tWip: calling Complier.load(on every file) I suppose.
08:04	tWip	just have the clj files in your classpath, clojure will find them when you use something
08:05	Pupeno-G	tWip: all the files are inside a jar.
08:07	tWip	if you run a jar, then that jar's files would be in the classpath
08:08	Pupeno-G	tWip: what? you lost me there.
08:08	tWip	in short, it should work
08:09	Pupeno-G	I have file1.clj, file2.clj, both in the same directory inside a jar and a Java program that in its main does, something like, Compiler.load(file1.clj), now file1.clj calls a function in file2.clj, so compiling fails due to a missing function.
08:09	tWip	oh I see, you should think about making clojure namespaces
08:10	tWip	and structuring code in them as appropriate
08:11	Lau_of_DK	cemerick, QtJambi comes with a alot of so.4 files in /lib/ - Youre saying everything has to be on the classpath ?
08:12	cemerick	Lau_of_DK: probably just their containing directory
08:12	rhickey	Pupeno-G: unless you have special needs, you can just us RT.var to create Var objects that correspond to Clojure vars you want to call, then just invoke them. That way, you can work it out in Clojure then do the same thing in Java
08:12	cemerick	to be clear, I've never used any flavor of Qt, that's just a suggestion
08:17	Pupeno-G	tWip: Did you mean that each file should be a namespace?
08:20	Pupeno-G	rhickey: for the moment, I'd rather improve the java wrapper and or build system to be able build the simplest possible cases, as what I'm really developing is not the program, but the plumbing to write programs.
08:22	rhickey	Pupeno-G: I understand, just advocating you do Var load = RT.var("clojure","load"); load.invoke(...); rather than Compiler.load(...)
08:23	Pupeno-G	rhickey: Oh! I totally misunderstood you. Right, I remember that way from Enclojure trunk.
08:24	AWizzArd	would it make sense that (dissoc my-vector n) would return a vector instead of throwing an exception?
08:24	gnuvince	Hello everyone
08:24	rhickey	AWizzArd: I don't think so
08:26	AWizzArd	so if I want to have a vector where I want to "delete" elements from the middle I should have a hash map with numeric keys probably
08:28	gnuvince	abrooks: thanks for the comments!
08:30	kib2	gnuvince: hi, I've read your tutorial last night.
08:31	Lau_of_DK	cemerick, Ive extended the classpath, Ive set everything up the way they propose, Ive manually loaded the 2 libs, I still get the same error
08:33	Pupeno-G	clojure.lang.RT is not part of the 20080916 release, isn't it?
08:34	gnuvince	kib2: any comments?
08:35	kib2	gnuvince: yes, it is said to be for beginners, and I don't think so (because I'm one).
08:36	rhickey	AWizzArd: yes, a hash-map makes a good sparse vector
08:37	rhickey	AWizzArd: sorted-map probably better if you care about sequential iteration
08:37	gnuvince	All right, I'll make a few final corrections and post it during my lunch break
08:37	duck1123	rhickey: would it be possible (or wise) to just conj the two slices together?
08:38	Pupeno-G	Lau_of_DK: what error are you getting?
08:40	kib2	gnuvince: ie you're talking about macros, I don't think anybody who has programmed in whatever langage but Lisp like will really know what's a macro.
08:41	AWizzArd	rhickey: btw, if I want to implement my own vector and implement IPersistentVector.. can I do this purely from within Clojure or would I have to do that part in Java?
08:41	gnuvince	kib2: I may get into them in a future post.
08:41	kib2	gnuvince: Also, I found it hard to start with Clojure, because you need to know a little Java before, right or not ?
08:42	duck1123	gnuvince: it might be helpful, when referring to certain pages, to provide a link
08:42	gnuvince	duck1123: I'll add more of them. Thank you.
08:46	Chouser	AWizzArd: you can implement IPersistentVector with proxy
08:47	AWizzArd	good
08:48	abrooks	gnuvince: Thanks for your post!
08:48	Lau_of_DK	Pupeno, , I'll do a lisppaste, hang on
08:50	gnuvince	abrooks: thanks for your comments :)
08:50	kib2	is someone interested by GnuVince tutorial in pdf ?
08:51	Pupeno-G	kib2: by what?
08:51	kib2	the tutorial written by gnuvince
08:51	lisppaste8	Lau_of_DK pasted "QtWebkit load error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69503
08:53	Pupeno-G	Lau_of_DK: Are you running 4.4 on Windows?
08:54	Lau_of_DK	On Linux
08:54	Pupeno-G	Lau_of_DK: and you've tried the equivalent Java code?
08:55	Lau_of_DK	No - Ive never written 1 char of Java in my life
08:55	Lau_of_DK	(which is a strong argument that Clojure should have been built on .Net)
08:56	Pupeno-G	Have you tried the workarounds in the mail you pointed to?
08:56	kib2	here it is : http://kib2.alwaysdata.net/tempo/gnuvince.pdf
08:56	Lau_of_DK	Yes, those are the first 2 lines of the code
08:56	Lau_of_DK	And yes the paths are set up, according to their docs and the accompanying .sh scripts
08:56	Pupeno-G	Oh! I missed those, sorry.
08:58	Lau_of_DK	np :)
08:58	jdz	what does gnuvince use for writing that pdf?
08:58	Pupeno-G	I'm so pre-webkit era here :P
08:59	jdz	the code sure looks like colorized by emacs
08:59	Lau_of_DK	Pupeno-G, Webkit packs quite a punch though, and I want it for a specific app I have in mind
09:00	kib2	jdz: I've used Pygments
09:03	Pupeno-G	Lau_of_DK: I'm sorry, I don't have any idea. Do you get any other messages, any backtrace?
09:03	rhickey	Interesting: http://groups.google.com/group/jvm-languages/msg/8baa984ab66f00bb
09:03	Lau_of_DK	Nada
09:05	Lau_of_DK	rhickey, almost makes you sea-sick with all those curly braces :)
09:06	rhickey	I wonder if they've done anything about the 'no classloaders in applets' security restriction? Else this is limited to pure interpreters or privileged runtimes
09:07	cemerick	rhickey: yes, update 10 is very, very welcome on a variety of fronts
09:09	kib2	rhickey: very interesting
09:09	Pupeno-G	rhickey: I converted to using RT.loadResourceScript(...), but how should that help me regarding having two files, and one not seeing the namespace/contents of the other? or should I name the files/namespaces in a specific way?
09:10	cemerick	I don' t think update 10 changes the classloader policy -- although signing one's applet is a good thing to do, anyway
09:11	rhickey	cemerick: If most Flash had to be signed it never would have gotten off the ground - they need to fix this
09:11	rhickey	if they are serious about other languages
09:12	rhickey	I don;t understand why classes loaded from a custom classloader don't just get the same verification and sandbox restrictions
09:12	cemerick	rhickey: agreed. I was saying (poorly) that it's a problem for consumer-level stuff, but not a problem for commercial stuff.
09:14	rhickey	or some standard public load-from-bytes-in-memory supported on the standard loader - this protected nonsense is goofy
09:15	rhickey	everyone has to derive a custom classloader to do exactly the same thing, and incurs no end of grief for doing so
09:18	cemerick	the choir agrees :-D With update 10, every applet is in its own jvm process, so I'm guessing a lot of changes can now be put on the table.
09:19	rhickey	It would be so awesome to load your Clojure program to provide logic and remote control the browser-based UI
09:22	duck1123	so, can clojurescript be used to generate javascript yet?
09:22	duck1123	I thought it would be interesting to try to link clojure and mozrepl
09:29	gnuvince	http://gnuvince.wordpress.com/2008/10/31/fetching-web-comics-with-clojure-part-1/
09:32	cemerick	rhickey: I'm actually hoping to deploy clojure to drive a GUI app as an applet in the not-too-distant future. Not having to maintain ajax or flash code in addition to our necessary "back end" that's in clojure/Java will be very pleasant.
09:32	rhickey	cemerick: cool! - the UI is Swing or HTML?
09:35	cemerick	aiming for Swing (although we may bring in a native browser component using jdic for a couple of webby tasks)
09:36	rhickey	is JWebPane still MIA?
09:37	Chouser	duck1123: clojurescript can generate javascript today, for probably 90% or more of the constructs needed. The runtime support is probably about 70% complete (these number are slightly educated guesses)
09:37	cemerick	I don't know what JWebPane is/was, but JDIC has a WebBrowser class that hooks into whatever native browser component you have installed (mozilla, webkit, etc)
09:37	Chouser	rhickey: Lau_of_DK's working hard on getting Qt and Webkit working for clojure
09:37	cemerick	I played with it for 20 minutes some months ago, and looks promising, although I suppose there may be hidden issues.
09:37	rhickey	JWebPane wwraps WebKit for consumption by Java - very deep integration
09:38	Chouser	that can apparently be deployed using java web start
09:38	rhickey	Saw JWebPane at JavaOne and was stunned by how smart they were about it
09:38	duck1123	Chouser: that's cool. I haven't gotten around to playing with it yet, but it looks promising.
09:38	cemerick	ah, in that case, I'm behind the curve
09:39	Chouser	duck1123: well, the clojure-side API's still in flux, so it's not really ready to go yet
09:39	Chouser	but I'm hoping to have a repl up on the web in the next few days.
09:39	cemerick	The web is a decidedly second-class citizen for us
09:41	duck1123	Chouser: I would also like to eventually replace my .conkerorrc file with some lisp-like language
09:41	Pupeno-G	So, if I RT.loadResourceScript all files it works, is that the way to go? I'm fine with that, but if there's a better way I'll take it.
10:32	gnuvince	Anyone wants to post my tutorial to programming.reddit?
10:34	tayssir	gnuvince: Done -- on programming.reddit!
10:35	gnuvince	tayssir: link?
10:35	tayssir	Er, yeah... http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7ait5/fetching_web_comics_with_clojure/
10:35	gnuvince	Upvoted!
10:36	Pupeno-G	idem.
10:46	Pupeno-G	How does Clojure know how to find the file containing a specific namespace?
10:47	Chouser	it looks through the classpath for a matching directory. com.foo.pkg would have to be at com/foo/pkg/pkg.clj
11:10	TommyOnMac	hi
11:11	kib2	didn't regexps supposed to be written like this #"..." ?
11:11	gnuvince	kib2: yes
11:12	jdz	only you don't need to escape backslashes since one of the recent patches
11:12	kib2	so why should I write (.matches "abc" "(a((b)(c))") instead of (.matches "abc" #"(a((b)(c))") ?
11:13	abrooks	jdz: gnuvince notes that below in the post.
11:20	Chousuke	kib2: because you're calling String.matches() which takes a string parameter
11:21	kib2	Chousuke: and then String.matches compiles the given string to a regexp, that's it ?
11:23	Chousuke	kib2: I don't know what String.matches really does, but most likely yes
11:25	kib2	Chousuke: because when I look at Java docs, it is said to take a regexp as parameter, so I suppose Clojure makes it automaticaly.
11:25	Chousuke	kib2: it takes a String representing the regexp as a pattern
11:25	Chousuke	not an actuall java.util.regexp.Pattern
11:25	Chousuke	-l
11:26	kib2	Chousuke: yes, so Java does the work
11:26	Chousuke	yeah
11:28	Chousuke	if you want to use an actual pattern object you'd have to do something like (-> #"foo" (.matcher "foo") (.matches))
11:30	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: Update - I have a Webkit widget running in a UI driven from Clojure now :)
11:30	AWizzArd	sounds nice
11:30	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: excellent!
11:30	AWizzArd	Now we just need some tutorials, how to do the basic stuff, step-by-step, so that we can impress people with youtube videos.
11:31	Lau_of_DK	lol
11:31	AWizzArd	Especially for all these 16 year olds out there it will be nice to programm "their own webbrowser" and show off before their friends... they are the guys who will write the software of tomorrow.
11:31	Lau_of_DK	haha
11:32	Lau_of_DK	I'll put something up sooner or later, but not on Youtube
11:32	kib2	Chousuke: thanks for the tip
11:34	kib2	what is "->" synatxic sugar for ?
11:34	kib2	"syntaxic"
11:34	gnuvince	kib2: syntactic
11:34	kib2	oops :)
11:35	Chousuke	kib2: it takes the first form, puts it as the second element in the next form, then puts that as the second element in the next form, ad infinitym
11:35	gnuvince	kib2: (-> 3 (+ 1) (+ 2)) ==> 6
11:35	Chousuke	infinitum :P
11:36	gnuvince	it moves the result through the forms.
11:36	gnuvince	It's similar to Haskell's do-form
11:37	Chousuke	it's not very clear at first glance, but it's quite nice once you get it :)
11:37	kib2	nice :) I like most of Haskel features :)l
11:38	kib2	Chousuke: I agree, I have to learn playing dominoes
11:39	Chousuke	my example above would expand to (-> (.matcher #"foo" "foo") (.matches)) which further expands to (.matches (.matcher #"foo" "foo"))
11:40	Chouser	for extra fun, parens are optional on all but the first form: (-> #"foo" (.matcher "foo") .matches)
11:44	kib2	Chousuke: thanks, that's what I was trying to do, but I was lost.
11:46	Chousuke	hm. Just noticed that (-> 3 (+ 1) (+ 2)) looks like infix notation with weirdly placed parens :/
11:51	duck1123	with ->, the result becomes the 2nd param, right?
11:51	danlarkin	isn't -> deprecated?
11:52	Lau_of_DK	rhickey, I cant say that this isnt just my inexpertise talking, but I really would appreciate some examples to go along with the online documentation. Im trying to understand (gen-class) and (gen-class-and-load) and its not exactly straight-forward to me how to apply them
11:53	AWizzArd	Lau_of_DK: it's time for a how-to wiki or something like that
11:53	Lau_of_DK	Can somebody enlightmen me, if I want to create a class which has a constructor a private/public var and a helper function, how do I do that ?
11:53	AWizzArd	In principle for every function/aspect there could be a bunch of examples
11:54	AWizzArd	When should I use vectors? How can I use assoc? How can I make a .jar file out of my clojure program that only needs to be double clicked on my friends computer? And so on
11:57	Chousuke	danlarkin: why would -> be deprecated?
11:57	Chousuke	it pretty much replaces (. and (..
11:57	Chouser	gen-class is among the trickiest pieces of clojure to use.
11:57	danlarkin	Chousuke: whoops! it's .-> that's deprecated
11:58	Chouser	but it's also illustrative of one reason that not too many docs have been written yet. gen-class is probably going away.
12:04	Lau_of_DK	Also one of the best reasons to get busy on some docs :)
12:06	Chouser	get busy writing docs for functions that are going away?
12:06	lisppaste8	Lau_of_DK pasted "gen-class-tutorial-needed" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69516
12:06	Chouser	go right ahead.
12:08	Chouser	Here's my gen-class tutorial. Please forgive me if it's a little dense: http://paste.lisp.org/display/68406
12:10	Lau_of_DK	Chouser, I gotta break, visitors coming - Could you do me a huge favor and annote my little example? :)
12:11	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: probably not. sorry.
12:18	Chousuke	gen-class is weird :/
12:21	Chouser	it is.
12:21	Chouser	it's an unusual layout of clojure code for constructing an unusual kind of Java class.
12:26	Chousuke	I'm trying to make a trivial class and it fails with "no value supplied for 'init" :/
12:28	Chousuke	ah, never mind.
12:35	lisppaste8	sohail pasted "System tray app with SWT - comments?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69519
12:42	Chousuke	sohail: nothing much, but you define unless and use it nowhere :)
12:42	sohail	Chouser hehe
12:42	sohail	I think I intended to replace one of the (if (not ... with that
12:44	Chousuke	also couldn't you use SWT/PUSH instead of (.PUSH SWT)
12:45	sohail	Chouser, could I?!
12:45	sohail	that would make me very happy!!!
12:46	Chousuke	I'm not Chouser, and I'm not sure. there were some limitations to the / form, but try it.
12:46	sohail	err sorry :-)
12:46	sohail	Chousuke, :-)
12:47	sohail	Chousuke, replacing (.Push SWT) with SWT/Push works
12:47	sohail	err PUSH
12:48	Chousuke	as far as I know / can be used to access static fields in a class
12:48	sohail	that's helpful
12:48	Chousuke	so you can do stuff like Math/PI etc.
12:50	Chousuke	it'll also work for the accesses in the .addListener calls :)
12:52	sohail	Chouser, yeah I replaced those as well
12:53	Chousuke	You have to be more careful with your tabcompletion :D
12:53	sohail	damnit
12:53	sohail	you need ot change your nick!
12:53	duck1123	Chousuke: maybe one of you just needs to change their name
12:54	sohail	make yourself zChousuke :-)
12:55	H4ns	sohail: please post your reworked example!
12:57	lisppaste8	sohail annotated #69519 with "for h4ns" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69519#1
12:57	H4ns	sohail: looks great, thanks!
12:58	Chousuke	you missed one.
12:58	Chousuke	(addListener (.Selection SWT) ...
12:58	sohail	so I did
12:58	sohail	thanks :-)
12:59	AWizzArd	sohail: see if you can add this to a wiki
13:00	sohail	AWizzArd, is there a wiki?
13:00	AWizzArd	http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming is coming closest to it
13:02	AWizzArd	we need much much more howtos and examples
13:02	sohail	maybe not a good idea, just realized there is a "leak" b/c I didn't dispose the image
13:02	AWizzArd	things that have to do with guis and graphics will attract also young people
13:03	Chousuke	I just noticed. Your definition of proxy-listener seems to have an error
13:03	cemerick	AWizzArd: as one of the young people (ostensibly!), I'd say we're already here ;-)
13:04	AWizzArd	Very good
13:04	sohail	Chousuke, what is the error
13:05	lisppaste8	Chousuke annotated #69519 with "hmm" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69519#2
13:06	sohail	Chousuke, ah, good catch. Howcome it doesn't affect things?
13:08	Chousuke	never tried running the code, I don't have SWT stuff in my classpath. I think it should break though if it's accidentally expanded into the qualified name :/
13:08	sohail	it doesn't break...
13:12	Lau_of_DK	Gents, Ive only got a few minutes, and takes on this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/69516
13:14	cemerick	Lau_of_DK: there's a ton of gen-class tutorials on the google group
13:14	cemerick	s/tutorials/examples
13:15	Lau_of_DK	thanks cemerick
13:22	Chousuke	sohail: seems like it works either way after all.
13:23	sohail	Chousuke, by design or accident?
13:23	sohail	why do you think it should barf?
13:24	Chousuke	maybe that was just my mistake.
13:25	rhickey_	Chousuke: Revision #907 Committed by rhickey at 6/17/08 8:29:06 AM made proxy tolerant of ns-qualified method names
13:26	rhickey_	before that it would have been bothered by the ns
13:27	Chousuke	ah
13:27	Lau_of_DK	What are the odds that gen-class functions will disappear, and what are the arguments behind it ?
13:27	rhickey_	Lau_of_DK: genclass can be viewed as a special case of AOT compilation
13:28	rhickey_	and thus subsumed by it
13:29	Lau_of_DK	"subsumed by it" ?
13:38	gnuvince	:)
13:39	Chouser	I'm not sure I'll ever use AOTC. sohail, what about it are you looking forward to?
13:39	Chouser	reduced startup time?
13:41	sohail	Chouser, that and you don't have to include all your sources
13:42	Chouser	so startup time and obfuscation.
13:42	sohail	pretty much, what else would I want it for
13:42	Chouser	no special classloader I think may make applets less cumbersome
13:43	Chouser	.class files can be compiled to work on android
13:43	Drakeson	how can I find the current "classpath" ?
13:43	sohail	I thought applet is now spelled as "flash"
13:43	sohail	;-)
13:44	Drakeson	classpath is not default
13:44	Chouser	you may be able to deploy a clojure app without the Compiler or ASM, for reduction in deployed .jar size.
13:45	sohail	Chouser, good list!
13:46	Chouser	sohail: did you see the clojure-inspired lisp for flash?
13:47	Chouser	Drakeson: this may help you: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/d83ed2808eef00da/3cd31b25f123e9a7
13:48	sohail	Chouser, I did not
13:48	sohail	but flash is horrible
13:48	Chouser	is it?
13:49	abrooks	Horible things can be done with flash. I don't think it's inherently that bad.
13:49	sohail	what abrooks said
13:50	Chouser	I have no doubt that plenty of horrible stuff will be written in Clojure.
13:50	rhickey	I certainly hope not!
13:51	Chouser	It'll be inevitable once it becomes the 3rd most popular language (behind cobol and vb)
13:51	rhickey	yikes
13:52	Chouser	:-)
13:52	abrooks	rhickey: You're making great strides evolving the programming language. It will take many generations to evolve the programmers. :-/
13:52	sohail	ya, see my swt example above
13:52	sohail	very horrible
13:52	Drakeson	The "lispish" aura around it may repels many idiots ;)
13:53	sohail	I don't think so
13:53	Chouser	I'm not finding that flash link.
13:53	sohail	most people understand Lisp is this awesome language but can't make any practical use of it... clojure makes that possible
13:54	Drakeson	what is the ruby on rails for clojure?
13:54	rhickey	Outside of more purely functional languages, Clojure is one of the few with some sense of "the right thing" baked in. So at least you'll have to go out of your way to be horrible, at least as far as mutation and concurrency, but I have no illusions...
13:55	abrooks	;-) I know you don't.
13:56	abrooks	Drakeson: Compojure and Webjure are web platforms in development but I don't think either is particularly Railsy.
13:57	abrooks	Drakeson: Besides neither is alliterative. We need Clojure on Crack or some such.
13:57	sohail	is there a way we can have another killer app for clojure than web programming
13:57	Kerris3	haha abrooks
13:57	Drakeson	(ruby-on-rails: a seeming integrated web application server with nice icons and graphics)
13:59	Chouser	sohail: how about a programmer's text editor?
13:59	Drakeson	sohail: maybe some document processing. There is no good-enough tool-chain around SVG yet.
13:59	sohail	Chouser, clojmacs?
13:59	Chouser	we could call it Emacs on Euphemisms or something
13:59	sohail	heh
13:59	devinus	will clojure ever have tail call optimization?
14:00	Chouser	devinus: when the JVM does
14:00	sohail	devinus, if the jvm gets it
14:00	Kerris3	is that the domain of the javac jvm
14:00	Kerris3	edit: beaten
14:00	devinus	isn't that support to be in java 7?
14:00	Kerris3	devinus: I've no idea, but you can check on http://download.java.net/jdk7/binaries/
14:01	rhickey	http://openjdk.java.net/projects/mlvm/subprojects.html
14:01	Chouser	ah! A Clojure-derived Lisp for the AVM2: http://github.com/aemoncannon/las3r/wikis
14:02	Chouser	that's the clojure-like flash thingy
14:05	sohail	ah crap
14:05	sohail	I just did (loop [] (recur))
14:05	sohail	in the flash thingy
14:05	Chouser	heh. will you have to close your browser?
14:07	sohail	yep
14:08	Chouser	sorry, man. At least when I do that in clojurescript, the browser steps in after a moment and offers to kill the loop.
14:08	sohail	the flash thingy is pretty cool
14:35	aperotte	Does anyone remember the name of the company that Rich mentioned when he was talking about a java cluster that ran the ant colony simulation?
14:41	dudleyf	aperotte: Was that Azul Systems?
14:41	Chouser	aperotte: azulsystems?
14:41	aperotte	thanks guys, I was listening to his screencasts trying to find it again, but wasn't having much luck
14:42	Chouser	http://blogs.azulsystems.com/cliff/2008/09/jvm-language-su.html
14:46	Drakeson	isn't a classpath path to a jar file? if so, what is the meaning of the following (from http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming#Libraries) : Now we have to create a file in the classpath with the filename "example/ourlib/ourlib.clj"
14:48	sohail	Drakeson, clojure hijacks the classpath for it's own purposes too
14:48	Drakeson	ok, is classpath a variable?
14:49	Drakeson	can I see its value? can I add an extra path to it?
14:49	Drakeson	I also tried this --> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/d83ed2808eef00da/3cd31b25f123e9a7
14:49	Drakeson	which gives me a list of jar files.
14:53	Drakeson	or at least, is it too obvious what it means?
14:53	AWizzArd	Funny. When you type on the repl: (in-ns 'java), how do you then go back into (in-ns 'user)?
14:53	kotarak	Drakeson: (add-classpath "file:///to/some/path") adds to the classpath
14:54	devinus	is there a clojure textmate bundle?
14:55	Drakeson	kotarak: thanks.
14:57	Chouser	AWizzArd: oops
14:58	Chouser	AWizzArd: don't do that
15:00	lisppaste8	fyuryu pasted "fighting with macros" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69528
15:01	fyuryu	I've been fighting with this macro for the last 1.5 hours
15:01	sohail	fyuryu, what are you trying to do?
15:01	fyuryu	and don't know how to achieve the desired effect
15:02	sohail	chunk doesn't need to be a macro
15:02	sohail	oh I see
15:03	sohail	do you need the @?
15:03	fyuryu	sohail: this is a simplified version, I want to be able to pass both, the test predicate and action from m-main
15:04	sohail	I don't know what you are trying to do actually
15:04	fyuryu	sohail: well, I think I need the @
15:04	lisppaste8	kotarak annotated #69528 with "fyuryu's macro with gensym" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69528#1
15:05	fyuryu	sohail: I want the commented line to appear in place of ~@(chunk ...)
15:06	fyuryu	kotarak: Thanks, I think I tried that already, but let me try again
15:07	fyuryu	kotarak: yep, doesn't work
15:11	devinus	what does this do ->
15:12	fyuryu	devinus: (-> {} (assoc :a 1) (assoc :b 2)) --> {:a 1 :b 2}
15:12	Drakeson	is there a way better than web scraping to get the content of clojure.org ?
15:13	lisppaste8	chousuke annotated #69528 with "shouldn't this work?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69528#2
15:13	devinus	fyuryu: is it like an inline test case?
15:13	fyuryu	devinus: takes the first arg and puts it as the first arg of the following expression
15:13	fyuryu	then the result as first arg of the next one
15:14	fyuryu	devinus: no, more like chaining calls
15:16	Chousuke	fyuryu: did my version produce what you wanted?
15:18	fyuryu	Chousuke: yes, thanks a lot. Started writing the same thing, following sohail's comment about making chunk a function
15:19	fyuryu	when you have a hammer...
15:22	Chousuke	I've noticed that writing helper functions that return forms helps bring macro complexity down a lot.
15:22	Kerris4	fyuryu: everything looks like a thumb? :V
15:23	fyuryu	:-)
15:24	Chousuke	you have a function that takes a parameter and "instantiates" a template with the parameter. then in your macro you can call map with that function over the macro arguments to generate code for each of them.
15:25	aperotte	Drakeson: there is a pdf in the files on the google group that contains the contents of the site
15:26	aperotte	Drakeson: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/files
15:27	aperotte	Drakeson: manual.pdf
15:30	Drakeson	aperotte: cool, thanks. Shouldn't that be in this channel's topic?
15:32	aperotte	I dunno, I'm pretty new here and only found it myself yesterday
15:33	aperotte	has anyone used the patch that allows gen-class to access ancestral protected members?
16:24	Drakeson	what it takes to get tilda expansion?
16:24	kotarak	Drakeson: what tilde expansion?
16:25	Drakeson	~/thing rather than file:///path/to/user's/home/directory/thing
16:26	kotarak	If it is not supported by the underlying Java classes, you probably have to write your own wrapper around the corresponding functions, which does that for you.
16:28	Drakeson	well, CL has user-homedir-pathname, and elisp has expand-file-name. what do you use here? I guess you don't write your own wrappers, right?
16:29	kotarak	Never needed ~/whatever up to now. I don't know whether there such functions.
16:32	kotarak	At least java.io.File seems not to support ~.
16:34	danlarkin	Does this work for you? (. System (getProperty "user.home"))
16:34	Drakeson	yes, but that is not very convenient.
16:34	danlarkin	well that's what you've got
16:34	Chouser	(System/getProperty "user.home")
16:35	Chouser	save those parens for CL programmers -- they need all they can get.
16:35	Drakeson	Chouser: :)
16:35	danlarkin	ah yes I keep forgetting /
16:35	Drakeson	I was hoping for something cleaner. Like a clean path syntax.
16:36	Chouser	Drakeson: it's not a terribly cross-platform standard. only unixen use ~ for the user home dir, I think.
16:36	kotarak	Drakeson: (defn expand-tilde [s] (if (= (first s) \~) (apply str (System/getProperty "user.home") (rest s)) s)) (untested)
16:37	Drakeson	it is not as clean as #P~/thing ;)
16:39	Drakeson	Chouser: true, but it would make things easier if there was a way (pick your own favorite character) to mean user home directory. It could translate to C:\\Documents\ and\ Settings\\Username for Windows.
16:40	Chouser	sohail: find a way for different libs to provide reader macros without conflict, and rhickey may take your patch.
16:41	abrooks	sohail: I don't think you'll get them. rhickey (who has largely convinced me too) is pretty much against dirtying the language with user-defined reader macros which would break tools, etc. If you really need something, just create your own reader and hand off to the compiler.
16:41	Chouser	I've thought perhaps by making them look like fns or macros that follow namespace rules...
16:42	sohail	I don't see why you couldn't make them use... what Chouser said
16:42	Chouser	(myns/myreadmac now I can do what I want " this macro ends in a ]
16:42	sohail	hm
16:42	sohail	no
16:42	sohail	:-)
16:42	Kerris4	abrooks: sounds like Clojure halready has legacy apps to support ;-P
16:42	sohail	but maybe if #P could be read as # namespace/P and you dispatch on namespace/P
16:43	sohail	but I don't know how that would work
16:43	Chouser	Kerris4: no, the point is that two people could write two different libs, but if each can mess with the one reader table, you're never going to be able to use those two libs in the same project
16:43	abrooks	Kerris4: I don't think it's just a legacy thing. Writing code that a tool must first execute to be able to read creates a mess, particularly if the code is broken. Plus, I don't think the power is ultimately necessary.
16:44	abrooks	Lisp + macros is a sufficiently powerful and yet hygienic system.
16:45	sohail	sheep!
16:45	sohail	:-)
16:46	Chouser	sohail: our proposals aren't very different, I was just thinking ( instead of #
16:46	abrooks	User defined reader macros add a bit but dirty the system massively.
16:46	Chouser	abrooks: that's roughly the same argument other languages make against macros
16:46	sohail	Chouser, problem is that ( is already used for something else
16:47	abrooks	Chouser: Other languages don't have CL like macros.
16:47	Chouser	sohail: sure, for invoking stuff, currently either at compile time or runtime. Why not at read time?
16:47	Chouser	abrooks: right, because the "add a bit of power, but dirty the system massively"
16:47	sohail	doesn't the syntax become ambiguous then?
16:47	sohail	(p or (p-function ?
16:47	Kerris4	Chouser: thanks for the explanation :)
16:48	sohail	no
16:48	Chouser	sohail: well, I don't have a patch working or anything, but I think it could be done.
16:48	sohail	still, I think using ( is insane :-)
16:48	abrooks	Chouser: Yes. Clojure DOES have powerful macros that don't dirty the system thanks to the homoiconicity that other languages don't have.
16:49	sohail	ok I think if reader macros dirty the system, then we should remove the object literal syntax because it uses a reader macro
16:49	sohail	if it's good enough for rich to use, good enough for me, I say :-)
16:49	kotarak	Chouser has a point with (. It would be some strange kind of consistent. But it should be also closed with ). Otherwise we create special cases again. I'm happy, that the () syntax is so regular. It makes writing tools easy.
16:49	abrooks	Hm... Clojure should really just adopt M4 now that I think about it...
16:50	abrooks	</joke>
16:50	sohail	( to indicate a reader macro will cause no end of confusion
16:50	Chouser	kotarak: yeah, the closing ] was intentionally ugly. most macros would want to end in ), but it'd be up to them to quit reading and give up control
16:50	sohail	(f "i") -> function or macro?
16:51	sohail	function, macro or reader macro, that is
16:51	kotarak	As does ( to indicate a macro instead of a function creates confusion.
16:51	Chouser	kotarak's got my point. :-)
16:51	sohail	not the same though
16:51	Chouser	no, just a gradient.
16:52	sohail	they both follow the rules except a macro is a function that doesn't evaluate its arguments
16:52	sohail	a reader macro is a what?
16:52	sohail	(ok not exactly, but...)
16:52	Chouser	a reader macro is a function that takes a PushbackReader instead of an s-expression
16:53	sohail	you are asking for it
16:53	Chouser	both macros and reader macros return s-expressions
16:53	sohail	the evils that are possible with ( for reader macros...
16:53	sohail	atleast with # you aren't required to delimit, whereas with ( you are, unless you are really mean
16:55	kotarak	sohail: If I give you a rope and tree, will you hang yourself?
16:55	Kerris4	:(
16:55	sohail	if I have to use ( for reader macros
16:55	sohail	:-)
16:55	kotarak	If I give you ( for read macros, will you do evil things?
16:55	sohail	emacs will be very unhappy with me
16:56	kotarak	Not when there is a ) necessary.
16:56	kotarak	Emacs won't note a difference.
16:56	sohail	if it's necessary, then sure I am happy
16:56	sohail	I just cringed at Chouser's example above
16:56	kotarak	beh :(
16:56	kotarak	Such things are evil.
16:57	kotarak	Solution: don't do it. Don't use other code which does it.
16:57	kotarak	Simple.
16:57	sohail	uh, no
16:57	sohail	solution: don't allow it
16:57	sohail	much easier
16:57	sohail	you're just helping rhickey make his case against!
16:57	Chouser	sohail: how would you indicate the end of a # macro?
16:57	kotarak	I feel Ada coming up....
16:58	sohail	Chouser, I wouldn't, and Emacs wouldn't care
16:58	sohail	but if there is a ( and no ), I fear
16:58	sohail	by the way, do we really want clojure to be a language that gives you enough rope to hang yourself?
16:59	sohail	it is not the place to be
16:59	kotarak	rich talked about #+ and #-, in this I see much more potential for rope....
17:00	sohail	you see more potential in a regular syntax to give you rope than allowing irregular syntax?
17:00	sohail	interesting
17:01	sohail	though whatever argument you make for #+ applies to (+ :-)
17:02	Kerris4	is there a -Wall or XLint equivalent for Clojure?
17:05	kotarak	sohail: How is this handled? (cond (foo) bar #+frob (frobnicate) flogiston)
17:05	sohail	I don't understand why you are harping on about #+
17:06	kotarak	I want to understand it, because the people are so interested in it. In the above example: is this a valid example use?
17:08	sohail	kotarak, that is an odd cond
17:08	kotarak	sohail: May question is: would the reader complain?
17:09	sohail	what does the cond have to do with it
17:09	sohail	that cond doesn't even look correct
17:11	kotarak	Without #+frob it's a normal cond. However with #+frob it's easy to break the code. This is the same thing as with ( doing strange things without closing ). Or do I misunderstand something?
17:11	ReplRat	Why doesn't (doc def) work? I get java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: def in this context
17:11	ReplRat	clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException: NO_SOURCE_FILE:22: Unable to resolve var: def in this context
17:11	kotarak	ReplRat: def is a special form
17:11	sohail	why would you write a cond like that
17:11	kotarak	why would I write a ( reader macro which doesn't close the )?
17:12	ReplRat	(def apply)
17:12	sohail	kotarak, why should you have the choice
17:12	kotarak	ReplRat: http://clojure.org/special_forms for more on special forms.
17:12	kotarak	sohail: why should I be able to break the cond with #+?
17:13	ReplRat	kotarak: thanks
17:13	sohail	why will it break
17:14	kotarak	Because without frob feature the (frobnicate) will be removed. Leavind an odd number of clauses and flogiston in the position of a test.
17:15	sohail	so you're asking me why can you break cond by putting in an odd number?
17:15	sohail	I don't get it
17:15	sohail	I don't need #+ to do that
17:16	kotarak	It's not important. Certainly a misunderstanding of this whole stuff on my side.
17:16	Chouser	kotarak: you were doing so well!
17:17	Chouser	sohail: the person writing the cond probably meant for the #+ to apply to the entire condition. It was a simple mistake that may go unnoticed for a long time.
17:17	sohail	ok..
17:18	sohail	yesterday I accidentally wrote (defmacro while [cond & body] `(when ~@cond ...))
17:18	kotarak	A poof the regular syntax of #+ introduced the rope...
17:18	sohail	which did odd things
17:18	sohail	so let's get rid of ~@ too
17:18	kotarak	Ah! Macros are bad!
17:18	sohail	see
17:19	kotarak	Other languages saw this already and remove them completely. ;)
17:19	Chouser	so maybe we already have enough rope to hang ourselves. in which case, what's wrong with ( for reader macros?
17:19	kotarak	sohail: I think there will alway be rope. Bondage and Discipline is not really the way to go...
17:19	sohail	I can't believe you are seriously considering ( without )
17:19	sohail	kotarak, exactly
17:19	Chouser	ah, nevermind. kotarak, you were right to give up.
17:19	sohail	so why are you advocating NO READER MACROS
17:19	Chouser	this is not a condusive forum for this kind of disucssion.
17:20	Chouser	I have a feeling that if were all in the same room and had a whiteboard, we would have reached a concensus (or at least an understanding) quite a while ago.
17:20	kotarak	probably
17:28	ReplRat	is there a way to access the nth most recent expression result in the Repl? like i can do in bash?
17:28	kotarak	there is 1 2 and *3
17:28	ReplRat	thanks
17:29	ReplRat	where is that documented
17:29	kotarak	*e for the last thrown expection
17:30	ReplRat	hmm, i'm getting Unable to resolve symbol
17:31	kotarak	which version clojure do you use? Maybe it's only in SVN up to now...
17:31	ReplRat	an svn from less than 3 days ago
17:32	ReplRat	i'm using git svn but i haven't figured out how to see what the most recent commit is yet
17:32	ReplRat	(trying to learn git as well as clojure) :)
17:33	kotarak	Just e sec
17:33	kotarak	Works for me...
17:34	ReplRat	i'm just typing *1 at the repl, should it eval as an expression or do i need to wrap it in something else?
17:34	sohail	I think you need to update swank if you are using it
17:34	ReplRat	ahh well i'm just using a naked repl at the moment, not slime/swank.
17:34	Chousuke	ReplRat: git log HEAD^..
17:36	Chousuke	more generally: git log HEAD~n.. shows you the log entries for the last n commits, and ^ is a synonym for ~1
17:36	ReplRat	Chousuke: thanks. the last commit seems to be July 22? i must be doing something stupid with git which is why *1 doesn't work.
17:36	Chousuke	you can also use tags or hashes, or specify and endpoint for the range.
17:37	Chousuke	july 22? that doesn't sound right.
17:37	ReplRat	i did git clone last weekend, and git fetch on wednesday to update my repo.
17:37	ReplRat	git svn clone i mean
17:38	Chousuke	r1086 \| rhickey \| 2008-10-29 14:42:40 +0200 (Wed, 29 Oct 2008) \| 1 line
17:38	Chousuke	most recent, it seems
17:38	ReplRat	that looks more like it.
17:38	Chousuke	maybe you need to use git svn log or something
17:39	Chousuke	I have the clojure repo as plain svn so I can't test mysefl
17:39	ReplRat	Chousuke: that's it. git svn log shows r1085.
17:39	Chousuke	should really clone it as a git repo.
17:39	Chousuke	git is so much better than subversion
17:40	ReplRat	yep, and lots of clojure stuff, (clojure-mode etc) is on git
17:40	ReplRat	there seems to be a clojure clone on github, but i wonder how it is kept up to date?
17:40	ReplRat	http://github.com/kevinoneill/clojure/tree/master
17:41	Chousuke	well it seems to be current right now at least :)
17:42	ReplRat	maybe github has some svn sync magic that i don't know about
17:42	Chousuke	or maybe the person who created that just has a cronjob that updates it periodically :)
17:43	ReplRat	i thought i would be better off just using git svn myself that cloning his clone.
17:43	Chousuke	oh, apparently github can do svn imports by itself. nice.
17:44	Chousuke	though looking closer, it doesn't keep them synchronised automatically :P
18:39	ReplRat	should i use ant or maven to build clojure?
18:40	kotarak	I use ant. Never had problems.
20:23	mmcgrana	I see that the meta information on a var holding a function includes its file and line: e.g. (meta (resolve 'doc)) => {... :file "boot.clj", :line 2506 ...} but the file name is not qualified with a directory. Is there a reason for this, and can the fully qualified name be derived using e.g. the classpath?
20:32	mmcgrana	Probably should have asked if anyone was here first, I'll post to the group...
23:15	gnuvince_	Hmmm
23:15	gnuvince_	Did you guys watch the presentation by Slava about Factor? His EBFN library is really nice
23:29	sohail	man, I still remember when factor ran on the JVM