#clojure – 2008-10-29

2008-10-29

00:14	bradbev	I managed to set the meta with the java function setMeta
00:14	bradbev	poor form, but it's debugging.
00:32	Drakeson	will there ever be a way to use java's camelCase methods the-way-they-should-have-been-named in clojure? (e.g., I prefer to-upper-case over toUpperCase).
00:37	sohail	what is the clojure equivalent of import foo.bar.*;
00:37	sohail	Drakeson, I'd also like that
00:39	Drakeson	sohail: like what?
00:41	sohail	Drakeson, to-upper-case over toUpperCase
00:41	sohail	would be very cool to be able to set the reader(?) in such a mode
00:41	Drakeson	or the other way, import and rename symbols that way
00:42	Drakeson	there is a :rename already, I guess
00:42	sohail	yeah that can get annoying quick
00:42	sohail	there is no way to modify the reader right now right?
00:43	Drakeson	I guess not, IIRC I read/heard somewhere that reader is out of reach for now. unlike CL
00:45	Drakeson	how do you find out what directory you are in? also, how do you "cd" ?
00:48	sohail	you'd probably have to use the java api for that
00:48	sohail	is clojure.org/api manually maintained or is it automagically generated from all the other pages
00:49	Drakeson	what is the java api for that then?
00:49	sohail	I dunno, google it.. you can still type it seems
00:50	Drakeson	is there an apropos in slime/clojure/java to look for commands?
00:54	sohail	Drakeson, fyi, the completion works for me
00:54	sohail	I did (def foo-x [] ...) (foo-<M-TAB> and it worked
00:54	sohail	err esc-tab
00:56	Drakeson	sohail: it works for me now, (I used to be using debian unstable's slime (2008-02-..), then I tried the slime from git it, and it works well.
00:57	Drakeson	is there an easier "pwd" than (.getCanonicalPath (java.io.File. ".")) ?
00:57	sohail	uh
00:58	sohail	java.lang.System probably has what you want
01:02	Drakeson	sohail: thanks
01:58	sohail	when you do (ns foo...) (defn bar [] ...) in file foo.clj, when you (load "foo.clj") how does clojure know to put bar in foo/bar ?
01:58	sohail	ah.. Sets ns to the namespace named by name (unevaluated),
01:58	sohail	damnit, rtfm man
02:29	sohail	so anyone know? clojure equivalent to Java's import foo.bar.*;?
05:12	AWizzArd	Moin
08:23	Chouser	05:12 < AWizzArd> Moin
08:23	Chouser	oops, sorry.
08:24	cemerick	rhickey: in Reflector.invokeMatchingMethod(String, List, Object, Object[]), if 'target' is null (which is true if we're looking for a matching static method), then a NPE is thrown in the process of building the IllegalArgumentException message in the case where a matching method couldn't be found
08:24	cemerick	I could just change that function to take the target's class (which will never be null), but I thought I'd ping you on it first.
08:26	rhickey	cemerick: ack, will fix
08:31	cemerick	so, while I was digging around in there, I finally see why it's not so straightforward to automatically upcast numerics (e.g. float => double, int => float, etc).
08:32	cemerick	or, I think I see why ;-)
08:37	rhickey	what was your case for the invokeMatchingMethod problem?
08:39	cemerick	I had a reflective static call to a method with multiple overloads with the same arity, but was passing a literal int argument instead of specifying (float 5)
08:40	cemerick	the signatures were (Object, Object, float) and (OtherObject, OtherObject, float)
08:43	rhickey	cemerick: fixed
08:43	cemerick	rhickey: nice, thanks
08:44	cemerick	the error messages are much better these days
08:44	rhickey	little by little
08:45	rhickey	the next level is pro-active compiler checks for arity etc
08:45	blackdog	hows' AOT coming rhickey ?
08:46	rhickey	AOT's on pause until after the election next week
08:46	rhickey	then front and center
08:46	blackdog	nice
08:49	jao	sorry for the dumb question: what's AOT?
08:50	cemerick	Ahead Of time Compliation
08:50	cemerick	generating classfiles from .clj files, rather than having to load/compile them at runtime
08:50	jao	aha, thanks!
08:50	cemerick	I may need to write a sonnet for recur.
09:02	jdz	can I ask why remove is not implemented as just (filter (complement pred) coll)?
09:04	cemerick	ah, I just noticed declare -- nice addition
09:05	cemerick	jdz: I actually just noticed remove last week -- I've always used (filter (complement pred) coll) myself. Can't say what the motivation is behind the impl, though.
09:05	rhickey	jdz: no good reason
09:06	rhickey	maybe I didn't think I had complement yet at that point in boot.clj, but I do...
09:06	cemerick	for some reason, using complement sits better in my head, especially when working with maps or sets as predicates
09:11	jdz	rhickey: on that note --- i'm sure you must have thought about mutually-recursive functions?
09:11	jdz	or is it something that AOT will be able to provide?
09:12	rhickey	jdz: you can write mutually recursive top-level functions right now, just no letrec/labels
09:12	Chouser	jdz: mutually-recursive functions work, but without tail call optimization in the JVM, they're a bit dangerous.
09:12	Chouser	any chance of getting add-watch for refs?
09:13	cemerick	I never dug far enough into that side of it, but doesn't scala provide TCO over mutually-recursive fns?
09:13	rhickey	Chouser: I think dangerous is too strong - there are plenty of valid uses of recursion that don't need to handle large data
09:13	jdz	ok, that's good to know. i have been mislead by defining my functions with C-M-x...
09:14	Chouser	jdz: well, you do have to declare the var first: (def f1) (defn f2 [...] ...) (defn f1 [...] ...)
09:15	Chouser	rhickey: fair enough. have a more appropriate word at hand? :-)
09:15	Chouser	maybe "must be careful"
09:19	Chousuke	does the SVN link on clojure.org work for anyone else? I get an error :/
09:20	j-dot	mindful?
09:20	rhickey	cemerick: if they do it has to be in a compilation unit where they can inline one of the methods - the JVM doesn't support TCO across real method calls
09:21	Chousuke	hm
09:21	Chousuke	apparently all of sourceforge is having trouble.
09:21	cemerick	yeah, I know they go through all sorts of contortions internally to support local TCO, nevermind mutually recursive TCO.
09:21	rhickey	Chouser: I think it's best to say there's no TCO and leave it at that.
09:33	j-dot	rhickey: currently the docs at http://clojure.org/evaluation have this example, which doesn't work with SVN's HEAD:
09:33	j-dot	(eval (list + 1 2 3))
09:33	j-dot	-> 6
09:33	j-dot	should that be: (eval (list '+ 1 2 3)) -> 6?
09:34	danm__	I think the first one is right
09:35	danm__	or (eval '(+ 1 2 3))
09:35	danm__	which should be equivalent
09:35	jdz	danm__: the first and your version are not equivalent
09:35	jdz	in the first case the + is evaluated and its value put into the lit
09:36	jdz	*list
09:36	danm__	ahh, I see
09:36	danm__	they would be equivalent in CL though?
09:36	danm__	<-- new
09:36	jdz	danm__: no, the difference is the same in CL
09:36	danm__	ok
09:37	jdz	danm__: it's about evaluation rules and self-evaluating objects (like numbers)
09:37	jdz	i might have the terminology a bit wrong, though
09:38	danm__	right, ' is shorthand for quote, not list
09:47	Zzompp	hello, I used the instructions in http://riddell.us/clojure/ , but ran into something like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/63396/
09:51	Zzompp	any suggestions? :-)
09:52	Lau_of_DK	Youre trying to use 'progn' in a Clojure Repl ?
09:52	hoeck_	Zzompp: looks like slime is using the wrong init function
09:53	duck1123	I've seen that before
09:53	duck1123	it's very picky about the order you load the libs
09:54	duck1123	make sure you're require-ing swank-clojure-autoloads before slime
09:56	hoeck_	Zzompp: or for now try evaling in emacs-lisp mode (setq slime-lisp-implementations (list (list 'clojure (swank-clojure-cmd) :init 'swank-clojure-init)))
09:58	Zzompp	now it complains the following: java.lang.Exception: No such var: swank/start-server
10:02	hoeck_	Zzompp: i have my requires in this order: slime, swank-clojure, swank-clojure-autoload
10:05	Zzompp	thanks, got it working
10:05	Zzompp	using clojure from svn
10:07	Zzompp	by the way, any chance of using clojure as a scripting language? as in #!/usr/bin/env clojure etc.
10:07	Zzompp	(I just started to explore clojure)
10:07	Chouser	Zzompp: there are a few .sh scripts kicking around that make that possible.
10:08	Chouser	and there's a impressive, if convoluted, trick on the wiki as well.
10:08	Chouser	so yes, but there's not yet a standard way to do it.
10:10	Zzompp	ok
10:13	abrooks	Zzompp: One thing to note is that the JVM and Clojure compiling / classloading overhead is significant.
10:15	Chouser	1.871s for clojure vs. 0m0.006s for perl on my machine.
10:15	Zzompp	right
10:16	Zzompp	I'm just starting to learn clojure, so far it seems interesting
10:16	abrooks	Zzompp: There is a project, I need to remember the name, which allows you to run the JVM as a persistent scripting host. This project forwards all data over TCP sockets so the throughput is not optimal. It also doesn't, to my knowledge handle the forwarding of signals or process attributes to the script instance.
10:17	Zzompp	basically a java daemon?
10:17	abrooks	I have a sketch of a design for a better scripting host for POSIX-y systems (with UDS support) but it's currently vaporware.
10:17	abrooks	Zzompp: Yes.
10:46	Lau_of_DK	Could someone here enlighten me on the differences between inferior-lisp and superior-lisp ?
10:57	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: apparently not.
10:57	abrooks	Isn't inferior-lisp for non-elisp?
10:58	Lau_of_DK	Swank is using inferior, Slime is on Superior
10:58	Lau_of_DK	But I still dont know that that means
10:58	abrooks	Chousuke: Right... that's what I seem to recall.
10:58	Chousuke	it's just a guess though :P
10:59	Lau_of_DK	<tcr> Lau_of_DK: Inferior foo is Emacs speak and means that foo is run in a child process, communicating with Emacs.
10:59	Lau_of_DK	from #lisp
11:58	cads	if a person were to learn only one lisp, is there any reason why that lisp should not be closure?
11:59	cads	clojure, even!
11:59	Chousuke	maybe if you were paid to learn something other than clojure. :)
11:59	H4ns	cads: maybe you are looking for a lisp that is described in a book or two
11:59	cads	always a good reason
12:00	gnuvince_	cads: most people learn only one Lisp in college, and that almost always happens to be Scheme (and then they promplty forget it.)
12:01	gnuvince_	Maybe the colleges could teach Scheme as intro to computer science and then switch to Clojure and be like "well it's compatible with Java, what are you whining about?"
12:01	gnuvince_	:)
12:02	Chousuke	heh
12:02	Chousuke	that'd teach them to use the java libraries, but with clojure.
12:03	cads	H4ns: so perhaps it may not be the best idea to introduce it to a friend who is new to programming in general, but might be okay for someone who has read a few theoretical papers using simplified lisps as the working language?
12:03	duck1123	it would be interesting to see how well someone does learning Clojure as their first programming language
12:03	H4ns	cads: yes - i think, for someone who is completely new to programming, a good textbook is essential
12:04	H4ns	cads: (unless there is a teacher who has enough time to actually teach the person)
12:04	gnuvince_	duck1123: I think it could work; I believe that one of the important things a first language should have is practicality.
12:05	gnuvince_	The student should not feel that it is merely mental masturbation, he should be able to use it to create practical programs (however small)
12:12	Lau_of_DK	Boys, Ive put in some work to customize emacs. Like session management and the likes. This is pretty cool, will give you a clj file on top, and a repl below. Very easy
12:12	Lau_of_DK	(defun open-and-run-lisp (file)
12:12	Lau_of_DK	"This function open a file at TOP window, and execute `run-lisp' at LOWER window."
12:12	Lau_of_DK	(interactive "FFile: ")
12:12	Lau_of_DK	(delete-other-windows)
12:12	Lau_of_DK	(find-file file)
12:12	Lau_of_DK	(split-window-vertically 50)
12:12	Lau_of_DK	(other-window 1)
12:12	Lau_of_DK	(with-current-buffer (current-buffer)
12:12	Lau_of_DK	(call-interactively 'run-lisp)))
12:13	cads	H4ns, for a teacher willing to 'translate' learning material into clojure and put together a curriculum for his pupil, is there any lisp book which stands out as being particularly suited?
12:14	H4ns	cads: maybe practical common lisp - stuart halloway has translated some of the example code already, and it is oriented towards practical things. not suitable for an absolute beginner.
12:15	wwmorgan	cads: SICP is really good. It's Scheme though
12:15	H4ns	cads: for an absolute beginner, maybe using something like http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ might be better
12:17	cads	those both seem like great resources, thanks
12:18	cads	and halloway's writing a full blown clojure book!
12:21	tayssir	With SICP, a class taught by the authors are on Google Video, and you can download/torrent the vids direct from mit.edu. You might find it handy, depending on how you learn. Also, the textbook is online...
12:26	tayssir	(That said, I wasn't a big fan of SICP and Scheme, for some reason...)
12:31	gnuvince_	Should re-pattern be able to take two arguments like Pattern.compile(String, int)?
12:32	Chouser	I wonder if the Pattern literal should take flags, but I'm not sure what the syntax would be.
12:32	Chouser	gnuvince_: you can use (Pattern/compile ...) for now.
12:32	gnuvince_	I wouldn't have it for pattern literals
12:38	AWizzArd	Is there something like undef or unintern in CLJ?
12:40	wwmorgan	AWizzArd: (doc ns-unmap)
12:43	AWizzArd	wwmorgan: thx
12:45	AWizzArd	Is there a variable that automatically gets bound to the last result? Like , * and *** in CL. Or like +, ++, ++ or /, //, ///
12:50	wwmorgan	AWizzArd: 1, 2, and *3
12:51	H4ns	do 1, 2, *3 work in slime now?
12:51	Chouser	very simple visual explorer for clojure data structures: http://blog.n01se.net/?p=30
12:52	H4ns	Chouser: very cute!
12:53	Chousuke	cool
12:53	AWizzArd	H4ns: for me they do work in Slime
12:54	H4ns	AWizzArd: ok, time to update, thanks.
12:54	abrooks	Chouser: Nice!
12:56	H4ns	Chouser: the img tag in your blog seems to have wrong width/height specs, though
12:58	abrooks	Chouser: Yes, the image is being scrunched.
12:58	Chouser	yeah. The template fixes the width slightly smaller than the shot's actual size.
13:02	AWizzArd	How can I convert strings containing a number to a number? (parse-integer "14") ==> 14
13:03	wwmorgan	AWizzArd: arbitrary precision? integers?
13:04	abrooks	(. Integer (parseInt "14"))
13:05	abrooks	(.parseInt Integer "14")
13:05	abrooks	Either should work.
13:05	wwmorgan	also (Integer. "14")
13:05	Chousuke	(Integer/valueOf "14")
13:05	Chousuke	lots of options :p
13:05	abrooks	Heh.
13:06	H4ns	so there is no clojure way to do that, one uses java calls instead.
13:06	Chousuke	well, the java calls are the clojure way
13:07	H4ns	Chousuke: that was what i wanted to say :)
13:07	AWizzArd	I already supposed that and tried stuff like (.toInteger String "25")
13:08	AWizzArd	(as there was nothing in the boot.clj that seemed to do the job)
13:09	wwmorgan	http://look.fo/java-integer-from-string
13:10	Chousuke	the java API doc is your friend as much as the clojure doc is.
13:11	AWizzArd	I moved to another city and had no internet in the past days
13:11	Chousuke	if there's something "basic" that clojure seems to lack it's likely because it's already provided by the Java class library.
13:12	leafw	how does one expose the inspector namespace? (all-ns) doesn't list it
13:12	leafw	... but it lists set, zip and xml
13:14	wwmorgan	leafw: (use '(clojure inspector))
13:14	rhickey	leafw it's not loaded by default, since it's Swing
13:14	leafw	I see, would break in non-X11 forwarding environments, right
13:21	Chouser	I've been surprised to discover clojure.inspector in the past -- I wonder why I keep forgetting about it.
13:28	gnuvince_	Is there a way to give a docstring to a multimethod?
13:33	leafw	Chouser: would be great if the inspector was coupled with java beans, listing for each object its accessible get properties
13:34	leafw	at the moment, it would just list vector, vector, vector ... for a beans dict.
13:35	Chouser	when I first started thinking about this yesterday, I thought I would call mine gprint, and use a multimethod like prn does now.
13:35	Chouser	that might allow you to drop in new behavior.
13:39	Chousuke	gnuvince_: (defmulti #^{:doc "This is the docstring"} foo :bar) but that's not perfect :/
13:42	gnuvince_	yucky :-/
13:42	gnuvince_	Here's another question: if I have a .jar file, can I use the classes inside it?
13:42	Chouser	yes, you can.
13:43	Chousuke	hmmh
13:43	gnuvince_	:)
13:43	Chouser	ok, fine, I
13:43	Chouser	I'll just tell you...
13:43	gnuvince_	Wait
13:44	gnuvince_	I'll try to see if it's on the website.
13:44	Chouser	:-)
13:44	gnuvince_	Don't want to appear to be a documentation non-reader ;)
13:45	Chousuke	documenting multimethods could be useful but doc doesn't seem to handle them very well. it expects the :arglists metadata :/
13:46	AWizzArd	gnuvince: you could maybe try to manually attach metadata to a multimethod
13:46	gnuvince_	I was just wondering if there was a nice syntax like with functions
13:47	AWizzArd	not yet
13:49	AWizzArd	Look into your Clojure directory and see if you find src/boot.clj. There you can look up defmulti. Currently it doesn't take doc strings.
13:49	gnuvince_	Yeah, I saw.
13:49	gnuvince_	Chousuke: ok, I'll ask: can I just put the .jar in my CLASSPATH?
13:51	Chousuke	you probably meant Chouser.
13:51	Chouser	gnuvince_: yep
13:51	gnuvince_	yay
13:51	Chousuke	but now I'm a bit confused
13:51	gnuvince_	Chousuke: I did.
13:51	gnuvince_	Too many people in here with similar nicknames
13:51	gnuvince_	drewc and drewr, Chousuke and Chouser
13:52	AWizzArd	yeah, 4
13:52	duck1123	it won't pick up the presence of a new jar while it's running though, will it?
13:52	Chouser	duck1123: you can try using add-classpath to get that behavior
13:54	lisppaste8	Chousuke pasted "why doesn't meta return anything?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69406
13:57	Chouser	Chousuke: (meta (var foo))
13:57	wwmorgan	Chousuke: alternatively ^#'foo
13:58	Chousuke	ah
13:58	Chouser	When you def something, there are actually 2 or 3 objects involved.
13:59	Chouser	foo, (var foo), and in a way 'foo
13:59	Chousuke	hmm
14:00	Chouser	that is: the value you're assigning, the var you're assigning it to, and the symbol which is the name of the var
14:00	Chousuke	right.
14:03	Chousuke	so I can actually attach metadata to "nothing"
14:03	Chousuke	with (def #^{whatever} x), correct?
14:03	Chouser	no, but you can attach metadata to a var that is unbound or bound to nil
14:04	Chouser	yeah, your example is fine.
14:04	Chouser	(def #^{:is "var"} foo #^{:is "val"} ["value"])
14:09	AWizzArd	btw, why does it make sense to have unbound vars vs vars bound to nil?
14:09	AWizzArd	I mean, nil stands for nothing...
14:09	Chouser	evaluating an unbound var is an exception instead of just returning nil
14:10	AWizzArd	yes
14:13	Chousuke	is there way to test if a var is bound? without try/catch
14:13	Chouser	(.isBound (var x))
14:22	Drakeson	how can I write this in clojure: import org.gnome.gtk.Gtk; ... Gtk.init(args); ?
14:23	Drakeson	(. org.gnome.gtk.Gtk init args) ?
14:23	Chouser	(import '(org.gnome.gtk Gtl)) (Gtk/init args)
14:24	Drakeson	thanks.
14:30	Drakeson	I am a bit confused about java library paths in Debian. Do I need to set LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/jni ? Debian installs libraries in there.
14:31	sohail	Drakeson, either that or -Djava.library.path=/usr/lib/jni
14:32	walters	i think the JDK should do that by default
14:32	walters	but I can't speak for Debian
14:33	Drakeson	Debian usually tries to integrate stuff, so this feels so un-Debianish.
14:33	Drakeson	that's why I feel I am missing the correct way
14:33	walters	are you using openjdk/icedtea?
14:34	Drakeson	no, what is that? I am using sun-java6-*
14:34	walters	oh you're using java-gnome?
14:34	Drakeson	walters: libjava-gnome-java
14:34	walters	i think their stuff was buggy in this respect though I saw something in the most recent upstream release about fixing it
14:36	Drakeson	walters: I am going to JGIR, but I felt I better run a hello-world clojure + gtk using whatever comes with debian before using JGIR
14:36	walters	probably the main pain for using JGIR is that someone will have to package JNA for Debian, last I checked it wasn' tin
14:36	walters	*wasn't in
14:37	walters	https://jna.dev.java.net/
14:38	walters	"ctypes for the JVM" if you know Python
14:38	Drakeson	oh, I see.
14:39	Drakeson	what is the anonymous user/pass for svn checkout https://jna.dev.java.net/svn/jna/trunk jna ?
14:40	walters	Drakeson: looks like it's "guest" with no password
14:40	walters	Drakeson: https://jna.dev.java.net/servlets/ProjectSource
14:41	walters	dev.java.net isn't really a great hosting site
14:44	Drakeson	you have so many dependencies :p
14:45	walters	yeah, we're working towards a release hopefully in the next few weeks, i'll touch base with the debian desktop packaging team and help them get it shipped
14:45	Drakeson	walters: what do you use yourself? is it debian/... ?
14:46	walters	i use fedora; I work for Red Hat now, though long ago I was part of the Debian/GNOME team
14:47	blackdog	jgir good alternative to mono by the looks of it
14:47	blackdog	mono/gtk
14:47	Drakeson	yeah, that's what I think
14:48	blackdog	in the same space anyway - given that walters works for redhat :P
14:49	walters	we're getting there but the mono/gtk integration has years of work behind it; just to bring this back ontopic a good chunk of the reason I did work on JGIR is because most of the language innovation seems to be happening on the JVM now, Clojure being a good example
14:49	blackdog	yep
14:49	Drakeson	when java comes out of "non-free" in debian, and jgir packages appear in debian, mono/gtk and maybe even pygtk will get a fierce competion.
14:51	walters	didn't openjdk get in main?
14:52	Chousuke	I thought it did
14:53	Drakeson	oh, sorry, I didn't know openjdk is the open sourced sun-java.
14:54	walters	well...fedora at least ships icedtea (http://icedtea.classpath.org/) which is derived from openjdk but removes the remaining binary plugs; i assume Debian would ship icedtea too
15:15	vy	Is Jeffrey Chu in here?
16:19	duck1123	What would I need to do if I'm getting an InvocationTargetException when trying to create a new instance of a class?
16:21	Chouser	you might look at the full stack trace to see if there's a more helpful message farther down.
16:26	duck1123	I ran this from the REPL, so the rest of the trace just involves clojure.lang.Compiler
16:27	duck1123	0: clojure.lang.Compiler$DefExpr.eval(Compiler.java:300)
16:27	duck1123	1: clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:4113)
16:27	duck1123	2: clojure.eval__791.invoke(boot.clj:1443)
16:27	duck1123
16:32	Chouser	Not sure. I guess I'd check all the args to the constructor. Can you paste your code?
16:32	duck1123	the constructor doesn't take any args
16:34	duck1123	(import '(org.openid4java.consumer ConsumerManager)) (def manager (new ConsumerManager))
17:06	Zzompp	how do I loop forever reading one line at a time from standard input?
17:06	Zzompp	(read in) seems to read one line at a time, how do I keep doing that forever?
17:07	Chouser	read is for converting text files to s-expression objects
17:08	Chouser	so it reads as many lines as needed to get a complete s-expression.
17:08	Zzompp	what I want to do, is read one line from standard input, find if it matches a regexp and then print "found" or "not found"
17:09	Chouser	take a look at (doc line-seq)
17:09	Zzompp	thanks, I'll check that
17:10	Zzompp	but I'm still wondering about that looping bit, this would be a sort of redirector used by squid
17:11	Zzompp	so it has to read one line at a time, match regexp, print line, and keep doing that forever
17:13	Chouser	If you give line-seq an infinite stream of lines, it will return an infinite (lazy) sequence of those lines.
17:14	Chouser	so then you can just iterate through that seq, such as with doseq
17:14	Chouser	(doseq line (line-seq ...) (if (re-find #"foo" line) (println "found") (println "not found)))
17:15	Zzompp	thanks, I'll try that
17:19	gnuvince_	I want to write a small series of posts on Clojure on my blog. Do you guys think there's enough introductory material on the net right now, or should I go ahead and give a crash course in Clojure as I develop the program?
17:23	Lau_of_DK	gnuvince, I cant comment on the amount of materials, but I always find those types of blogs very interesting, so I will definately read it if you chose to write it
17:25	Lau_of_DK	Guys, if I have a standard .java file, which declares some classes. How do I consume these with Clojure, so that I can use the classes and their functions?
17:26	gnuvince_	Lau_of_DK: ok. I'll probably run it by the guys here to proof read.
17:26	Lau_of_DK	Alright - Let me know if you need any help
17:26	kotarak	Lau_of_DK, javac foo/bar/Baz.java, make sure resulting foo/bar/Baz.class is in cp. Use... (-> (new foo.bar.Baz "Blah") .frobnicate)
17:27	Lau_of_DK	javac ?
17:28	kotarak	java compiler
17:28	Lau_of_DK	oh, so clojure consumes .class files in the loadpath ? cool
17:39	duck1123	Clojure can never get enough press
17:46	sohail	clojure needs a killer app
17:46	sohail	bittorrent?
17:46	sohail	:-)
17:47	sohail	please don't make it web apps
17:47	sohail	I'll quit right now
17:47	Lau_of_DK	Clojure needs Qt
17:47	Lau_of_DK	Thats it, then everything would blow big
17:47	AWizzArd	what for?
17:48	AWizzArd	are the Java guis not so good?
17:48	Lau_of_DK	If we had full Qt integration, we would have 100% Crossplatform, incl. Mobile devices, every multimedia framework in the book, webkit, ease of GUI design and so on.
17:48	Lau_of_DK	Java is OK but Qt is a whole different story
17:48	kotarak	Lau_of_DK, you sure are a Qt fan.
17:48	Lau_of_DK	kotarak, no doubt about it
17:49	sohail	what's wrong with Swing vs Qt?
17:49	wwmorgan	clojure has qt integration with jambi right?
17:49	kotarak	Lau_of_DK, but it would only work, where the JVM exists. So portability is limited by JVM.
17:49	Lau_of_DK	Yes, sort of
17:49	Lau_of_DK	wwmorgan, I dont quite have all the details worked out yet
17:51	sohail	Lau_of_DK, what do you like about qt that you don't like about swing?
17:52	Lau_of_DK	sohail, It opens up many possibilities, when you get so easy access to Multimedia, Webkit and alot more along those lines, its high quality stuff. Secondly you get their 'designer' to build complex GUIs with ease. Thirdly, Trolltech develop like madmen,its a wave I want to ride
17:53	sohail	those are all true statements
17:53	wwmorgan	what are the best applications built on top of Qt?
17:53	Lau_of_DK	Google earth? Vlc?
17:53	sohail	well, I guess Amarok counts
17:53	Lau_of_DK	There are too many to mention... and still, they all mentioned them on trolltechs website :)
17:54	sohail	Lau_of_DK, ever used thinlet?
17:54	Lau_of_DK	Never heard of it
17:55	sohail	ya me either
17:55	sohail	till today
17:55	Lau_of_DK	Worth looking into ?
17:55	sohail	dunno, that's why I asked
17:55	sohail	it's no Qt
17:55	sohail	but you don't always need all those goodies
17:56	duck1123	do I need to do anything special to create an instance of a class with a constructor that doesn't take any parameters?
17:56	Lau_of_DK	No not always, but it would still bring so much power to Clojure, enable rapid development of a wide range of applications, that are currently a hassle to begin work on
17:56	duck1123	I keep getting an exception when I try
17:56	wwmorgan	duck1123: are you still getting the InvocationTargetException?
17:57	duck1123	yeah, but I can access static methods just fine
17:57	wwmorgan	is the exception getting raised in the constructor?
17:58	sohail	Lau_of_DK, until very recently, I did not appreciate the Qt designer. It is really very good
17:58	duck1123	hmm... when I try to do the constructor alone, I'm getting a different error
17:59	duck1123	let me see if I can take care of this error, then I'm sure the other will go away
17:59	Lau_of_DK	Its excellent, but reading a tutorial on it helps alot, alot of subtle qualities to it
18:05	Lau_of_DK	Welcome back cgrand
18:15	AWizzArd	Lau_of_DK: does Java not offer easy access to Multimedia, Webkit and so on?
18:15	Lau_of_DK	Not to my knowledge
18:16	Lau_of_DK	http://trolltech.com/products/appdev <-- At the bottom of this page, there are for videos, I recommend at least watching "New features"
18:16	AWizzArd	And btw, what tools honestly need a gui that can't also run in a web browser?
18:16	AWizzArd	At least for myself I see basically not much need for non-in-browser GUIs.
18:17	Lau_of_DK	Not the best platform for decision making
18:17	AWizzArd	It makes mostly sense for applications that process at lot of data, like image manipulation (Photoshop) or video cut (After Effects, ...)
18:19	AWizzArd	But stuff like email clients, file browsers for your online hard disks, programming editors, Word, music player, Sudoku and so on.. it all would work perfectly inside your webbrowser. No Swing needed, no Qt needed. Runs under all OSes, is automatically updated for the customers.
18:21	AWizzArd	Google already offers email, navigation and other tools. They are currently working on Word and Excel: http://docs.google.com/
18:23	AWizzArd	I think that over time more and more applications will go online, and not use Swing or Qt.
18:25	Lau_of_DK	AWizzArd, This is not a productive discussion. For some applications a desktop-app is preffered, for others you want something webbased. No reason to close any of those 2 options.
18:25	Lau_of_DK	Yes I understood that you think so :)
18:28	AWizzArd	Right, not closing options completely down. I just vote for orienting on the future. I can really not think of many things that need a GUI and that are at the same time not very data intensive, like 3d games or video cut.
18:30	AWizzArd	Maybe you could deliver the "killer app" for Clojure by making something like Qt, but for the webbrowser :-)
18:31	Lau_of_DK	I dislike Webapps, so I dont think I'll be the first to do it :)
18:32	AWizzArd	It's just the gui... the real software is on what we should concentrate
18:33	Lau_of_DK	That attitude has held Linux back for years while Mac accelerated
18:34	AWizzArd	Well, I very much like good looking stuff. The website of clojure looks fresh and clean, I like it.
18:34	AWizzArd	for common lisp I see guis with style from the early 90ies
18:34	AWizzArd	so yes, I agree
18:35	AWizzArd	I just say that I personally like to do programming, solve problems and such, and not represent my data to people.
18:37	Lau_of_DK	I view the whole thing as one task with many sub-tasks, GUI, design, being just a few
18:38	AWizzArd	this is a realistic view for many of us, who can't work in a team and have their own gui expert who is much more experienced
18:39	AWizzArd	I just like the idea of completely separating the gui from the real program. Having an expert who can edit his template files and control really everything of the gui (be it in a browser or desktop app) and the programmer has never to write any line of html.
18:41	Lau_of_DK	I gotta jet - Good evening/night to all
19:09	Chouser	AWizzArd: you use emacs, right? would you prefer a similar features set in a web app for your programming editor?
19:09	AWizzArd	Yes
19:09	AWizzArd	in principle everything that I do in emacs could be done in the browser as well.
19:09	Chouser	would you want to run the server part locally, or have it hosted?
19:09	AWizzArd	in the future it will be hosted
19:10	gnuvince_	How does one get invited to Google Tech Talks?
19:10	Chouser	AWizzArd: You never need to work without interet access?
19:10	Chouser	gnuvince_: brilliant!
19:10	gnuvince_	We need to get Rich there :)
19:11	AWizzArd	Chouser: right, for me personally it is not a requirement to program while I have no internet access.
19:11	gnuvince_	Steve Yegge would go nuts
19:11	gnuvince_	A Lisp that talks to Java
19:11	gnuvince_	Natively
19:11	gnuvince_	He would immediately say that it's what he meant when he said NBL ;)
19:37	sohail	keep yegge away from clojure!
19:44	AWizzArd	;-)
19:47	gnuvince_	sohail: ;)
19:48	AWizzArd	Is there already something like (partition 4 (range 10)) but which would not result in ((0 1 2 3) (4 5 6 7)) but instead ==> ((0 1 2 3) (4 5 6 7) (8 9))
19:48	gnuvince_	sohail: note that he'd write a blog post longer than "War and Peace" about the language and that would take him until 2032 to finish, so we'd be okay ;)
19:48	sohail	gnuvince_, ah, good. By then Arc will have taken over
19:49	gnuvince_	haha :)
20:38	duck1123	has anyone used any endorsed jars with Clojure?
20:39	duck1123	I'm trying to use a library that has a dependence on Xalan
20:44	duck1123	nvm. I got it working
21:15	AWizzArd	uh: (format "%s" ()) ==> "clojure.lang.PersistentList$EmptyList@1a183d2" instead of "()"
21:18	Chouser	heh
21:19	Chouser	(format "%s" (pr-str ()))
21:42	AWizzArd	n8
22:01	gnuvince_	Damn...
22:01	gnuvince_	1800 words :-/
22:01	gnuvince_	That's quite a lot for a blog post, isn't it?
22:10	Chouser	Is there some kind of official style guide for blog posts that I've never heard of?
22:10	gnuvince_	Not that I know of, but beyond a certain length, a lot of people just say "tl;dr"
22:10	gnuvince_	Chouser: would you mind reviewing the blog post?
22:11	Chouser	:-) sure.
22:12	gnuvince_	I'm going to bed, so you can send comments by email at vfoley@gmail.com
22:12	Chouser	ok
22:13	gnuvince_	I'm interested in pretty much anything
22:13	gnuvince_	http://fornost.homeip.net:81/vince/clojure-comics1.html
22:13	gnuvince_	If some parts have a weird "not-quite-English" tone, let me know.
22:13	gnuvince_	Thanks a lot, good night!
22:14	Chouser	g'night
22:15	abrooks	gnuvince_: I'm taking a look at it too.
22:16	abrooks	gnuvince_: It looks pretty good so far. Just one note: The regex format is changing eliminating the double escape ("\\d").
22:16	abrooks	This is not in a release yet but you may want to note that.
23:20	_sohail_	is a new class created everytime proxy is called?
23:41	_sohail_	hrm... how can I convince clojure to let me create a String[][] from [["foo"]["bar"]]
23:41	_sohail_	to-array* just gives me an array of Object
23:47	Chouser	proxy will re-use a class it created earlier if the list of base classes is the same.
23:51	_sohail_	thanks Chouser
23:51	_sohail_	any idea about [["foo"]["bar"]] -> String[][] or do I have to do it manually?
23:52	Chouser	I'm not sure.
23:53	Chouser	How about an array of vectors? (into-array [["foo"]["bar"]])
23:53	Chouser	;-)
23:54	Chouser	(into-array (map into-array [["foo"]["bar"]]))
23:54	Chouser	I think that might do it.
23:55	_sohail_	whoa
23:57	_sohail_	Chouser, I'll have to read that a bit...
23:58	Chouser	(map into-array [["foo"]["bar"]]) -> seq of String[]
23:59	Chouser	pass that seq to into-array to get an array instead, thus an array of String[], a.k.a. String[][]
23:59	_sohail_	oh geez, I didn't realize into-array is what I wanted in the first place
23:59	Chouser	I think. My understanding of Java array types is patchy.
23:59	_sohail_	thanks :-)