#clojure – 2008-10-25

2008-10-25

00:03	pjb3	(ns foo (:require-clojure)) means switch to the foo namespace and pull everything in from the clojure namespace, right?
00:03	blbrown	hello
00:04	pjb3	blbrown: hello
00:05	Chouser	pjb3: no need for :require anything
00:05	pjb3	Chouser: right, so (ns foo) refers the clojure namespace by default
00:22	Chouser	yes
00:23	Chouser	you can use (:refer-clojure ...) if you want to refer clojure things in some non-default way (exclude, rename, etc.)
02:41	sohail	anyone know how to get clojure-mode to use my classpath
02:42	sohail	swank-clojure that is
02:42	sohail	aha, sw-cl-extra-classpaths
04:12	Lau_of_DK	Morning gents
04:18	Pupeno	Good morning.
04:19	Pupeno	Hi Lau_of_DK.
04:19	Lau_of_DK	Morning
04:20	Pupeno	Is there a Clojure planet somewhere?
04:21	Lau_of_DK	You mean if Rich has bought some real estate in the skies ?
04:21	Pupeno	Lau_of_DK: hehehe, no.
04:22	Pupeno	Lau_of_DK: a planet is an aggregation of blogs by topic. There's a Debian planet for example, where posts by Debian developers appear.
04:22	Lau_of_DK	oh, if there is, I'd love to know about it
04:24	Lau_of_DK	But I really think that the Euler-wiki is becoming quite helpful for learners
04:25	Lau_of_DK	Its unfortunate that it gives away the award-winning algorithms for solving the project, but if you can disregard that, theres alot of good code
04:25	Lau_of_DK	(mostly the stuff not written be my though)
04:25	Lau_of_DK	(although I will brag about my solution for #59)
04:26	Lau_of_DK	(and also #37, because its pretty concise)
04:26	Lau_of_DK	(though #40 is actually the most concise)
04:26	Lau_of_DK	But you get the picture
04:32	Pupeno	Lau_of_DK: what is the Euler-wiki
04:32	Lau_of_DK	Its a Wiki where we post solutions/algorithms for solving www.projecteuler.net problems, you'll find it at http://clojure-euler.wikispaces.com
04:39	Pupeno	Lau_of_DK: Cool, thanks.
04:40	Lau_of_DK	np, But be careful, Euler steals time
10:33	milanmitrovic	I played around with closure in the last couple of days... and I must say that it looks great!
10:35	rhickey	milanmitrovic: cool
10:36	milanmitrovic	I'd like to try writing something bigger... any hints?
10:36	milanmitrovic	I use emacs, so swank-clojure would be a really cool thing to have...
10:37	milanmitrovic	though slime seems to be cl only...
10:39	rhickey	milanmitrovic: slime for Clojure already exists, nice setup instructions here: http://bc.tech.coop/blog/081023.html
10:40	milanmitrovic	yes... I've been reading the source of swank-clojure and slime...
10:41	milanmitrovic	but slime wasn't really built with other lisps in mind... at least as far as I can tell
10:57	drewr	SLIME just utilizes swank, so as long as there are Clojure implementations of the swank methods, stuff works.
11:11	milanmitrovic_	drewr: but slime has a lot of cl specific features (debugging - conditions & restarts) stuff like that...
11:33	lisppaste8	sohail pasted "Can't let qualified name" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69188
11:33	sohail	I'm surely missing something obvious up there
11:35	sohail	err that should be ~x but same thing..
11:35	hoeck	sohail: you need ~'x
11:36	sohail	hoeck, hm. why?
11:37	sohail	I want (testing-123) to expand to (let [y 1] (print y))
11:38	sohail	anyway, that example could be (defmacro testing-123 [] `(let [y 1] (print y))) and same happens
11:39	hoeck	sorry, i meant ~'y
11:40	hoeck	the unquote-quote prevents the y from becoming clojure/y
11:40	sohail	ah
11:41	sohail	so now I have to use ~'y everywhere...
11:41	Chousuke	why not use a gensym?
11:41	sohail	good point
11:42	sohail	that's good enough for me
11:42	sohail	thanks people
11:43	hoeck	sohail: ideally you would use y# (auto-gensym) in this simple macro
11:44	hoeck	but when you need method-symbols or class literals in macros you need '~
11:44	sohail	hoeck, can you give me an example?
11:45	meredydd	hoeck: Really? I haven't run into that issue with method syms and classes - and I'm fairly sure I've done that.
11:45	meredydd	Perhaps ` has acquired extra magic.
11:45	sohail	ps: what is auto-gensym ?
11:46	Chousuke	sohail: (defmacro testing-123 [] `(let [y# 1] (print y#)))
11:46	sohail	oh, I see the y# is equivalent to above
11:46	sohail	nice
11:47	meredydd	hoeck: My apologies. You're right, it happens on method syms. But it appears to be okay on class names.
11:47	hoeck	sohail: yeah, you're right too :)
11:48	hoeck	and its needed for intentional aliasing, for example in proxy
11:49	Chousuke	gensyms only stay the same within the same syntax-quoted form. so you can't syntaxquote, unquote a subform, and the syntaxquote a subform of that and expect your y# to be the same as in the earlier syntaxquoted forms.
11:49	Chousuke	unless there's a way to make that happen. I'm not a macro expert either
11:50	Chousuke	sometimes I wish it'd work though.
12:30	sohail	binding is not like let* is it..
12:30	rhickey	sohail: nope
12:31	sohail	rhickey, is there some specific reason?
12:31	sohail	let is like cl:let*
12:33	rhickey	parallel bindings can be popped in unison, also one dynamic binding referring to the prev is unusual
12:33	rhickey	that's also why you don;t bind dynamic vars in let like you can in CL
12:33	rhickey	separate construct and semantics
12:35	sohail	hm
12:36	sohail	ok something to think about
12:40	gnuvince_	To find the maximum inside a collection, is there a preference towards (apply max coll) or (reduce max coll)?
12:46	danlarkin_	discontent in the arc community eh :-/ http://www.arclanguage.org/item?id=8462
12:48	gnuvince_	danlarkin_: not too surprising. And Paul Graham's comment that "Lispers have been willing to wait 50 years for a good implementation" really makes me laugh: a lot of experienced Lispers are saying that Clojure is what they've been waiting for, not just a set of macros on top of mzscheme
12:48	danlarkin_	well I do agree with pg on one point
12:49	danlarkin_	and that is that it's useless to start horse-racing languages
12:49	danlarkin_	haha but you're right, I'm not really sure what world he's living in saying that
12:51	gnuvince_	oh, ZING
12:51	gnuvince_	A guy replied to a comment on arclanguage.org by Paul
12:51	gnuvince_	"Your mantra in your role running Y-Combinator is "make something people want."
12:51	gnuvince_	Is Arc exempt from that?"
12:51	danlarkin_	haha burn!!
13:21	dmiles_afk	(abort)
13:54	arohner	is there a good way to 'diff' two structures in clojure?
13:54	arohner	I'd like to see the first place where two datastructures are different
13:55	clogged	anyone using SLIME with clojure?
13:56	arohner	clogged: sure
13:56	arohner	me, and I'm sure a bunch of other people
13:57	lisppaste8	clogged pasted "slime" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69189
13:57	clogged	i already have clojure as inferior-lisp but when i try to start M-x slime the repl i get an error
13:57	clogged	^^ paste
13:58	arohner	are you using cvs slime?
13:58	arohner	and swank-clojure?
13:58	clogged	cvs slime, not swank-clojure
13:58	arohner	yeah, you'll need that
13:59	arohner	http://github.com/jochu/swank-clojure/tree/master
13:59	lisppaste8	clogged annotated #69189 with "clojure-setup" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69189#1
13:59	clogged	ok
14:04	clogged	and u think it is better than the clojure-mode?
14:04	clogged	can i have both at once?
14:11	arohner	I think swank and clojure mode are mostly orthogonal
14:11	arohner	clojure-mode mainly deals with highlighting and indenting
14:11	arohner	swank deals with eval-buffer, load-file, etc
14:11	arohner	yes, you can have them both at once, I do
14:12	arohner	C-c C-d C-d is very nice
14:12	arohner	prints docs for the function under the cursor
14:19	clogged	clojure-mode can evan latest s-exp and a whole file too
14:20	kotarak	How do I have to interpret ClassCastErrors? I have a constructor expecting an IPersistentMap and get said error when a pass eg. a sorted-map: clojure.sorted_map__79. This worked previously.
14:22	gnuvince_	meh
14:22	kotarak	oops. Ok. again my fault.
14:22	gnuvince_	Tried Emacs for Clojure and immediately the pinky and wrist strain came back :(
14:26	drewc	gnuvince: remap capslock and use opposite hand for modifiers
14:26	drewc	i don't do the latter anymore, now that i have a pinky-of-steel!
14:27	gnuvince_	drewc: my capslock is already remapped
14:27	drewc	gnuvince: ouch .. that's a shame!
14:27	drewc	gnuvince: get a kenesis :)
14:28	gnuvince_	Or keep using vim :)
14:28	arohner	yeah, I use a keyboard with the split in the middle
14:29	arohner	I had wrist problems before emacs, with the split keyboard and remapping caps, I'm great
14:30	gnuvince_	drewc: it is annoying to constantly alt-tab between vim and clj and doing (load-file "foo.clj") constantly
14:31	Chouser	gnuvince_: have you tried chimp?
14:31	gnuvince_	But it's better than the pain I had after two years of Emacsing.
14:31	gnuvince_	chimp?
14:31	Chouser	it's not as bug-free as one would hope, but it's not terrible.
14:31	Chouser	chimp: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2348
14:32	gnuvince_	Nope, haven't tried that.
14:32	kotarak	Interfacing to the outside world is hard with Vim. :(
14:32	gnuvince_	kotarak: indeed.
14:32	kotarak	I try to make chimp to work as best as I can, but there something strange issues with screen and rlwrap...
14:32	Chouser	yeah. IMHO, both emacs and vim are showing their age, but I'm not convinced that any of the IDEs are the answer.
14:33	Chouser	no matter how many complex and featureful plugins are available for them.
14:33	gnuvince_	The best of both worlds would be something like Yi
14:33	Chouser	I keep homing netbeans + jvi + enclojure will do it for me. We'll see...
14:33	Chouser	hoping
14:33	gnuvince_	where the entire editor is scriptable, like Emacs, but where it is completely independant from the key binding.
14:34	kotarak	Yep. But Haskell is not for everyone.
14:34	gnuvince_	kotarak: doesn't need to be Haskell, but the basic idea is good.
14:34	kotarak	How about jim?
14:34	gnuvince_	never heard of it.
14:34	kotarak	(a clojure "vim")
14:34	kotarak	It does not exist, yet. ;)
14:34	gnuvince_	ah
14:35	kotarak	When did it change, that I cannot apply hash-map?
14:46	arohner	kotarak: what do you mean?
14:47	kotarak	I found the problem.
14:47	kotarak	I had something like this helper function: (defn x [t k] `(~t ~@k))
14:48	kotarak	And used in a macro like that: (defmacro y [& k] (x hash-map k))
14:48	arohner	oh. is quasi-quote allowed/good style in a non-macro context?
14:48	kotarak	This worked before and is now broken.
14:48	kotarak	arohner: yes it is.
14:49	kotarak	This is the correct macro: (defmacro y [& k] (x `hash-map k))
14:49	kotarak	Note the quote.
14:49	kotarak	I use the function is driver for several macros, parameterizing over the arguments since the basic function does always the same.
14:50	kotarak	So the function is called from macros, hence returning the quasi-quoted form.
14:51	gnuvince_	You guys are going to need to refresh my memory. If I want to keep a cache of results and keep a piece of code function, I need to use CPS, right?
15:05	arohner	lisppaste8: url
15:05	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
15:05	lisppaste8	arohner pasted "deftempl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69194
15:06	arohner	weavejester posted that to compojure. I find it to be pretty awesome.
15:29	clogged	which language is the run script of compojure written in? ruby?
15:31	meredydd	Bash
15:31	meredydd	(then Clojure)
15:31	meredydd	(unless, of course, I'm hideously out of date)
15:57	jgracin	What's the correct procedure to set print-length in repl? In several examples, I've seen (set! print-length 100). But how can this work? (it doesn't for me)
15:58	jgracin	go to (in-ns 'clojure) and (def)?
15:58	kotarak	jgracin: Probably with (binding [print-length 100] (do-print-stuff))
15:59	jgracin	kotarak: but I want this to affect the repl.
15:59	rhickey	jgracin: should work:
15:59	rhickey	user=> (set! print-length 10)
15:59	rhickey	10
15:59	rhickey	user=> (cycle [1 2 3])
15:59	rhickey	(1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 ...)
16:00	jgracin	I'm (expectedly) getting: java.lang.IllegalStateException: Can't change/establish root binding of: print-length with set
16:00	jgracin	I must be doing something wrong...
16:00	rhickey	jgracin: what repl?
16:01	jgracin	Slime
16:01	rhickey	if it creates its own repl it needs to follow clojure.lang.Repl by making bindings for print-length etc, probably isn't yet
16:02	jgracin	oh, that's it. I didn't update Slime!
16:02	jgracin	swank-clojure, that is.
16:04	jgracin	right, it's not updated to bind print-length yet.
16:06	Chouser	I didn't have to make any manual changes for ClojureScript to support print-length. Re-gerenated boot.js, and it just worked.
16:33	arohner	I have a macro that returns a fn. I'm trying to put a reflection type hint in it, but the compiler complains
16:34	arohner	putting the reflection type hint for the same class works just fine on other defns in the same file
16:34	rhickey	arohner: paste?
16:34	arohner	lisppaste8: url
16:34	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
16:34	lisppaste8	arohner pasted "type hint?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69205
16:36	arohner	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: HttpServletRequest
16:36	rhickey	arohner: and if you fully qualify it?
16:37	arohner	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: java.servlet.http.HttpServletRequest
16:37	arohner	oops
16:37	arohner	one sec
16:38	arohner	that works
16:39	clogged	im using win32, singlecore. i want to write a simple that uses agents. i have never written a program using threads. so i have never encountered these problems. what would be a good exercise-problem to solve?
16:40	rhickey	arohner: you are in a regular quote there and aren't getting any import help
16:41	arohner	but I would be if I weren't in the regular quote?
16:42	rhickey	yes, outside of quote and in ` names will be resolved
16:52	arohner	rhickey: would you accept a patch that adds source file names to reflection warnings?
16:53	rhickey	arohner: you mean warn-on-reflection warnings?
16:53	arohner	yes
16:57	rhickey	you just planning to grab SOURCE.get() at warning points?
16:58	arohner	I was thinking of passing source into the ctors for the different Expr types
16:58	clogged	how do i do (info regex)?
16:58	arohner	some of the expr types already do that, like InstanceMethodExpr
17:01	fyuryu	clogged: not sure if that's what you want: (find-doc "regex")
17:01	rhickey	arohner: I'd rather not change any signatures right now
17:02	rhickey	you could add source reporting to static/instance methods (which already have source) and get most cases
17:03	arohner	yeah, I did that. It caught about half the cases
17:03	arohner	I can do SOURCE.get()
17:04	rhickey	arohner: you have a lot of field access?
17:04	rhickey	or ctors?
17:05	arohner	not sure yet. I'm guessing ctors
17:05	kotarak	How do I fix reflection warnings for the gen-class? eg. I get a warning on (.state object) (where state is defined via :state). After adding a type hint (defn Foo-bla [#^Foo this] (.state this)), I get a more than one matching method found. It seems to assoc. But I'm puzzled. W/o type hint the code worked.
17:08	rhickey	kotarak: is it derived from another genclas class with state?
17:09	kotarak	rhickey: it implements clojure.lang.IPersistentMap and the class loader complains about assoc. (. this assoc k v) in assocEx.
17:09	kotarak	Deriving from Object
17:11	rhickey	kotarak: I'm confused - is the problem state or assoc?
17:11	rhickey	can you paste something?
17:11	kotarak	I'm sorry, I confused myself. Yes. Just a sec.
17:14	lisppaste8	kotarak pasted "assoc: more than one matching method" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69210
17:15	kotarak	rhickey: adding a type hint to this in the method definition gives the failure. Without it works.
17:15	kotarak	rhickey: the state things was confusion sorry.
17:18	rhickey	kotarak: and if you hint IPersistentMap instead of the concrete type?
17:18	kotarak	Will test....
17:19	kotarak	No. Still complaining.
17:20	clogged	anyone know python? i can do pat=re.compile(pattern) then pat.sub(topattern, phrase)
17:20	clogged	is there similar function n java or clojure?
17:21	rhickey	kotarak: I can reproduce with a smaller case here - will look into it
17:21	kotarak	rhickey: thanks :)
17:31	hoeck	clogged: i don't know python, but there is http://clojure.org/other_functions (the re-* functions)
17:34	meredydd	clogged: clojure.contrib.str-utils/re-sub is probably what you're looking for
17:34	meredydd	Or, of course, (.replaceAll str "some regexp string")
17:34	meredydd	(although the latter doesn't precompile it - it's just a string, and the regexp gets recompiled every time)
17:38	clogged	is there a help or doc function available at the repl? like (doc re) ?
17:38	kotarak	(doc doc) ;)
17:40	rhickey	or (find-doc "re-")
17:41	clogged	meredydd: do i need to import something to use replaceAll?
17:42	meredydd	clogged: Nope; that method's already in the String class.
17:42	kotarak	clogged: note the leading dot: .replaceAll. This indicates a method of the following object.
17:42	meredydd	(.replaceAll str exp) is just sugar for (. str replaceAll exp) - it's just an ordinary method call.
17:44	rhickey	kotarak: fixed - svn rev 1080
17:44	kotarak	rhickey: fast as always. :) thanks.
17:45	gnuvince_	Is there an easy bool->int conversion?
17:46	rhickey	(if x 1 0)
17:48	clogged	meredydd: doens it need 3 params? the string to look in, the exp to be replcaed and then the new expr?
17:48	clogged	(.replaceAll str pat) -> java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: replaceAll
17:49	meredydd	clogged: You are, of course, correct. When the advice of a random fool on IRC and the API docs disagree, go with the API docs :)
17:49	clogged	:)
17:50	meredydd	http://tinyurl.com/5zcvfs
17:52	clogged	(.replaceAll "hoh" "[bcdfghjklmnpqrstvwxyz]o[bcdfghjklmnpqrstvwxyz]" "h")
17:52	clogged	"h"
17:52	clogged	works
18:00	clogged	hmm somehow i need to know the letter of the match
18:01	clogged	like if i match hoh i need to know the first letter h so i can do -> h or if it is sos i should be ->
18:02	lisppaste8	clogged pasted "regex-replace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69211
18:34	lisppaste8	achim blomkvist annotated #69211 with "hoha" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69211#1
19:08	duck1123	how do I concat a string and the value of a hash?
19:08	duck1123	it's not working for me
19:20	Chouser	"the" value?
21:03	danlarkin	billc``: howdy
22:25	danlarkin	room's dead on the weekend eh
22:28	Chouser	indeed
22:49	RadioApeShot	Anyone about using Slime with clojure?
22:49	arbscht	yes
22:50	RadioApeShot	I think I understand that if I put a (clojure/ns testspace) at the top of a file, then slime should automatically switch to that namespace when I evaluate a form from that file.
22:50	RadioApeShot	Is that right?
22:50	RadioApeShot	This is how it works with packages in CL
22:50	RadioApeShot	My clojure/slime alas seems to be confused
22:51	RadioApeShot	It is trying to evaluate forms with C-X C-E in the user namespace.
22:51	RadioApeShot	Regardless of what the current namespace of clojure is on my REPL and regardless of namespace declarations at the top of the file.
22:53	RadioApeShot	So if I have like (clojure/ns testspace (:use provides.foldl)) at the top of my file
22:53	RadioApeShot	And a form that says (foldl cons '(4 5) '(1 2 3))
22:54	RadioApeShot	When I try to execute it with C-X C-E I get an error that user does not contain foldl, even if I manually change the namespace of the repl to testspace
22:54	RadioApeShot	If I select a region which contains the namespace declaration AND the form I want to evaluate, then C-X C-R works.
22:55	RadioApeShot	Also regardless of the state of the REPL.
22:56	arbscht	yes, I can reproduce it. hm.
22:59	RadioApeShot	It sort of makes dealing with namespaces a hassle.
22:59	RadioApeShot	How weird is the slime/clojure/elisp ecosystem
22:59	RadioApeShot	?
22:59	RadioApeShot	Do I have a shot at figuring out the issue?
22:59	RadioApeShot	I am fluent in elisp and pretty conversant in CL.
23:00	RadioApeShot	If someone could give a hint at where the general vicinity of the bug may be I can look at the code.
23:07	arbscht	RadioApeShot: if you call (ns testspace ...) in the repl, return to user, and then C-x C-e, does it work?
23:07	RadioApeShot	No
23:07	RadioApeShot	even if the repl is living in the namespace
23:07	RadioApeShot	Apparently slime is switching back to user before evaluating the form
23:07	RadioApeShot	And then switching to whatever the repl is in
23:08	RadioApeShot	If I copy/paste the form onto the repl inside the namespace, then that works.
23:08	arbscht	do you have a recent swank-clojure?
23:08	RadioApeShot	Or, as I said above, if I select a region which contains the ns form and the form I am interested in and C-R
23:08	RadioApeShot	Yeah, svn from a day or two ago.
23:08	RadioApeShot	Newest clojure, also pulled from svn
23:08	RadioApeShot	I think on thursday
23:09	RadioApeShot	My slime might be a bit stale, but I rebuilt it with my SBCL using clbuild no more than a month ago.
23:09	RadioApeShot	And I think clbuild pulls from the latest version.
23:11	arbscht	I can't reproduce all of that behaviour; it only happens when the ns is not already known to the clojure instance
23:11	akopa	Does clojure have a type-predicate for characters-- character? and char? aren't bound.
23:13	Chouser	Apparently not. (instance? Character n)
23:14	RadioApeShot	arbscht: let me fool around with it some more
23:19	RadioApeShot	Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the working directory is not on the classpath?
23:19	RadioApeShot	Does a namespace necessarily correspond to some directory structure on the classpath?
23:19	RadioApeShot	Or is it independent?
23:20	Chouser	It's technically independant, but there are a few functions and macros that only work right if they match up.
23:20	RadioApeShot	Is there a way to dynamically extend the classpath from clojure?
23:22	Chouser	(doc add-classpath) but there are a few different classloaders, and I'm not not sure which are involved in which context.
23:23	RadioApeShot	Well, is my expectation of the behavior correct?
23:23	RadioApeShot	Should I expect slime to automatically contextualize forms to the package at the top of the file?
23:23	RadioApeShot	Or am I crazy/stupid?
23:23	RadioApeShot	I mean I might be crazy/stupid anyway.
23:23	Chouser	I don't know anything about emacs or slime, sorry.
23:24	RadioApeShot	How...
23:24	RadioApeShot	How do you do things without... emacs?
23:24	Chouser	hehe
23:25	RadioApeShot	What are you using?
23:25	RadioApeShot	Maybe I should use that.
23:26	RadioApeShot	I can Vim as well as Emacs.
23:26	Chouser	yeah, vim.
23:26	RadioApeShot	Hm
23:26	Chouser	I have clojure in another terminal window, with rlwrap for history, and readline set up with vi keystrokes.
23:27	RadioApeShot	I did some wild shit with Vim and Screen back in the day.
23:27	RadioApeShot	But eventually I just realized I was writing emacs.
23:27	RadioApeShot	So I switched.
23:27	RadioApeShot	I use viper-mode most of the time.
23:27	RadioApeShot	But not for lisp.
23:27	Chouser	funny you should say that. There's a thing called "chimp" that does some vim/screen/clojure integration.
23:28	Chouser	lets you send clojure code from vim to your clojure prompt. It works ok.
23:29	Chouser	Last time I tried to use emacs, I was trying to do things the "emacs way".
23:29	Chouser	Next time I try to use emacs, I'll try to use it my own way. That probably means viper-mode.
23:30	RadioApeShot	Emacs is about doing it your way.
23:30	RadioApeShot	Not to give a pat recommendation
23:30	RadioApeShot	But I have found emacs to be an almost religious experience.
23:30	RadioApeShot	Emacs Lisp literally flies out of my fingers
23:31	Chouser	bleh. I want to customize my editor in clojure, not in some ancient, namespace-less, dynamically bound lisp.
23:31	RadioApeShot	The curve of usefulness for any given project in emacs starts negative and then becomes positive and rapidly approaches indispensable.
23:31	RadioApeShot	Emacs Lisp is not so awful.
23:31	Chouser	I don't believe you. ;-)
23:31	RadioApeShot	The fact that variables can be buffer local helps
23:31	Chouser	hm.
23:31	RadioApeShot	And you can use the cl package for lexical scoping.
23:32	RadioApeShot	I mean the system is awful
23:32	RadioApeShot	And yet
23:32	RadioApeShot	At the same time
23:32	RadioApeShot	I want every application to be like emacs.
23:32	RadioApeShot	Plus, the imperfection of EL makes it push you to just do what works
23:32	RadioApeShot	Not what is ideal
23:32	RadioApeShot	Write the code, move on.
23:32	Chouser	Is it stupid to consider a new clojure-based editor? Is emacs with all its warts still so far ahead of the game?
23:32	RadioApeShot	Like a Samurai
23:32	RadioApeShot	It is pretty far ahead.
23:33	RadioApeShot	I need interactive shells, at the very least.
23:33	RadioApeShot	There is an emacs implemented in MIT-Scheme.
23:33	RadioApeShot	This is attractive to me, since I am a schemer at heart.
23:33	RadioApeShot	But it is not documented and the library of features is quite small.
23:33	RadioApeShot	I don't have time to bring it up to speed.
23:33	RadioApeShot	So I use emacs.
23:34	RadioApeShot	Plus, Scheme is too "do it right"
23:34	RadioApeShot	Emacs is very "do it now."
23:34	RadioApeShot	There is something to be said for that.
23:34	RadioApeShot	Ok
23:34	RadioApeShot	I have to turn in for the evening.
23:34	RadioApeShot	I have an engagement
23:34	RadioApeShot	Which might resemble a date.
23:35	Chouser	ah, very well. Enjoy yourself.
23:35	RadioApeShot	With a very attractive blond
23:35	RadioApeShot	And I need rum.
23:39	akopa	There are emacs implemented in most lisp (see also climacs, hemlock, etc.) GNU Emacs and XEmacs have usually been more featureful. Zemacs might be an excetion, but I've never used a Lisp Machine.
23:47	akopa	null?
23:48	akopa	whoops.. wrong buffer