#clojure – 2008-10-19

2008-10-19

00:00	bitbckt	ah, you're right
00:00	asbjxrn	(filter #(< % 10) [ 1 11 2 14])
00:00	bitbckt	the take is "taking" one ahead
00:00	bitbckt	but... not returning?
00:00	bitbckt	as the filter is not returning anything past that boundary?
00:01	asbjxrn	It keeps searching the sequence for the next number smaller than 10.
00:01	asbjxrn	Which it will never find as the sequence is steadily increasing.
00:02	bitbckt	ah, I see.
00:03	duck1123	oh well, I've solved the problem, and now I've learned something :)
00:04	bitbckt	duck1123: it's a good day.
00:12	AWizzArd	why does (. System.out.println "Hallo") produce an error?
00:17	Chouser	try: (.println System/out "Hallo")
00:19	AWizzArd	ic
00:21	AWizzArd	is there already some kind of absolute value function in clj?
00:22	Chouser	(Math/abs x)
00:22	Chouser	so no, but it's easy to get to Java's.
00:22	AWizzArd	great
00:22	AWizzArd	why is it (.println System/out ...) but not (.abs Math)?
00:23	Chouser	static method vs. instance method
00:23	Chouser	out is a static field of the System class
00:23	Chouser	abs is a static method of the Math class. Thus System/out and Math/abs
00:24	Chouser	println is an instance method of the System/out object, thus (.println System/out)
00:25	rottcodd_	but it's still possible to do (. Math (abs -1)), is that bad style?
00:25	Chouser	that's an older style. I think it's being phased out, but I'm not sure.
00:26	Chouser	Also works: (. Math abs -10)
00:26	AWizzArd	so which is the newer one?
00:27	AWizzArd	but (System/out/println "moo") ==> error
00:27	Chouser	newer: (Class/meth arg) for static and (.meth obj arg) for instance
00:27	AWizzArd	ok, thanks
00:27	Chouser	right, println is an instance method, so don't try to use /
00:27	asbjxrn	I liked the (. style.
00:28	asbjxrn	Oh, well.
00:28	AWizzArd	it's still there it seems
00:28	asbjxrn	But if it's phased out...
00:30	asbjxrn	I kinda agree that too many ways to do stuff is bad, easier on the reader if there is one common way of doing things.
00:35	AWizzArd	currently the reader does not allow things like: (defn 3-or-more [guys] ...)
00:35	AWizzArd	symbols may not begin with a number
00:36	AWizzArd	also dots in symbols cause problems... one couldn't name range "from..to"
00:37	AWizzArd	(defn from..to [f t] (range f t))
00:46	AWizzArd	n8 n8
01:09	duck1123	I prefer the (. Class method) style
01:14	anyn	how do I do something like this in clojure: Log _log = new Log(ATalk.class);
01:14	anyn	?
01:14	anyn	where ATalk.class is inside of the class definition for ATalk?
01:17	Chouser	(defn log (Log. ATalk)) perhaps?
01:18	Chouser	ATalk.class in Java is to get the Class instance representing ATalk, right?
01:19	anyn	right, but since most of the app logic that I'm recreating (for an exercise to learn) is inside of the class ATalk, I'm getting rid of the class and just doing all it's logic in the root namespace.. should I try to put it all in a function somehow?
01:21	Chouser	probably not -- sound like you're on the right track.
01:23	Chouser	sorry, that should be "def" not "defn" above.
01:24	Chouser	I don't suppose anyone knows of a way to set a public field on a Java instance?
01:24	Chouser	oh, (set!) does it. hm...
01:25	anyn	I suppose I could, for each method that the java app uses the logging facility, do a (let [log (Log. thisFunctionName)] and do a new (.warn log "stuff happend") each time
01:27	Chouser	you want a new instance of Log for each clojure fn?
01:28	anyn	I suppose it'd have a slightly different effect. each fn would probably spit out a different log file (if I understand this logging facility correctly)
01:28	anyn	Whereas, I guess this java class spits out one log file for the whole class
01:29	anyn	no biggie, I'll probably just forgo the logging all together and print to the console
01:29	anyn	Chouser: I suppose you're a lisper moreso than a java person?
01:30	Chouser	no, more C++ and ruby.
01:30	Chouser	so I've had lots to learn. :-)
01:32	Chouser	gotta go -- good luck!
01:32	anyn	gah
01:32	anyn	ok, later
01:38	anyn	toanyone: So I'm trying to translate a java class to a clojure program. When a class has a bunch of class variables, would it be wise to put those variables in a map like {:myFile nil :myContact nil :myBirthday nil}. Then, have functions like (def doStuff [myFile] ((doInsideStuff) {:mybirthday newValue}))
01:39	anyn	which returns a new map.. and then I can just merge the returned value into my map with a ref-set or something?
01:41	anyn	I mean, (defn doStuf
01:50	duck1123	is there a way to get a sequence of the functions that are defined. (perhaps in a given ns)
01:59	rottcodd_	duck1123: yes http://clojure.org/namespaces
02:01	duck1123	thanks
02:03	anyn	How do you do a "while (true) { socket.accept }" in clojure?
02:04	anyn	or just "while (true) {...}" for that matter
02:05	rottcodd_	loop and recur
02:08	rottcodd_	eg. (loop [] (do-stuff) (recur))
02:10	anyn	ah
02:12	anyn	hmm, is there a "break" keyword to get out of a loop?
02:12	rottcodd_	put the recur in a conditional
02:13	anyn	i see
02:15	rottcodd_	another way to approach your doStuff function would be to do (assoc myFile :my-birthday new-value)
02:15	rottcodd_	then you don't have to merge in the ref-set
02:15	anyn	(defn while [test do] (loop [test do] (if (not test) (recur test do))))?
02:16	anyn	yea, you mean inside the function? and return the whole map?
02:16	rottcodd_	yes
02:16	anyn	ok
02:18	rottcodd_	also, you can look into struct-maps for better performance
02:43	anyn	can you implement java interfaces in clojure? and how would you create the required methods?
02:44	scook0	anyn: check out the "proxy" macro
02:45	anyn	yea, I know about proxy, and have used it once or twice, but...
02:46	anyn	I've used it for event listeners
02:48	anyn	Here, I've got this large class that implements a "session" class, which requires certain methods.. I've done away with the larger class and broke the methods down into functions.. I'm guessing those functions will do their jobs, but they wont tie back as methods into the interface
02:52	anyn	I guess I could create on function that proxies the session interface, then implements the respective methods, which in turn just point out to the other functions in my ns?
02:54	H4ns	anyn: did you look at the proxy macro?
02:59	anyn	H4ns: yes. I'm only so so at reading the docs, but yea.
03:02	H4ns	anyn: i'm not sure if i understand your problem, but with proxy you can create a class that is used as a proxy so that java can call back into clojure functions
03:10	anyn	H4ns: Yea, sorry.. It's just such a confusing class. The class implements "SessionListener" .. in a connect() method, it does _session.setSessionListener(this) .. in the run() method it has a "_session.sendMessage(..." in there. And then, further down, it implements the required methods. I've turned the connect() method (which had the 'this' reference) into defn myConnect .. and made session.setSessionListener(this) into (.setSessionListen
03:12	anyn	so now the myConnect function has been registered as the listener for the "SessionListener" interface
03:13	anyn	do I have to add the proxy that implements the methods in the same function?
03:15	anyn	er, to the same function? that registers with mySession?
03:15	anyn	very confusing
03:21	anyn	seems like java methods usually translate to clojure functions (which are java classes) and a java class usually ends up being an entire clojure namespace (in terms of file size). So translating between the to isn't necessarily intuitive (for a newb).
03:23	anyn	I guess I need to create some sessionProxy function that talks to the interface and delegates to the other functions.
03:52	joha1	any one using chimp with clojure here? Trying to assign F5 to EvalFile() in .vimrc, but vim can't find the chimp function. I've tried several variants of chimp:EvalFile() and so on, but no luck so far.
04:08	Lau_of_DK	Morning gents
04:35	Lau_of_DK	I might be lagging in my understanding of datastructures again, but if I have a list of lists, that I want to splice (?) so that I can work with the numbers individually, how to I go about this?
04:35	Lau_of_DK	Like, lets say I want to multiply all ints by 2, why doesnt this work
04:35	Lau_of_DK	user=> (permutations [1 2])
04:35	Lau_of_DK	((1 2) (2 1))
04:35	Lau_of_DK	user=> (map #(* % 2) (permutations [1 2]))
04:36	Lau_of_DK	...and more importantly, how do I fix
04:42	Lau_of_DK	and this is not what I need :)
04:42	Lau_of_DK	user=> (map #(str %) (permutations [1 2]))
04:42	Lau_of_DK	("clojure.lang.PersistentList@8d94bf13" "clojure.lang.PersistentList@8d94bf53")
04:42	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: you get (* (1 2) 2). Why should * know about lists?
04:44	kotarak	(map (fn [[x y]] (list (* x 2) (* y 2))) (permutations [1 2]))
04:44	kotarak	or: (map (fn [x] (map #(* % 2) x)) (permutations [1 2]))
04:48	Lau_of_DK	Oh, thats a really clever way of doing it, didnt know about [[x y]] syntax
04:48	Lau_of_DK	thanks
04:48	Lau_of_DK	And kotorak, I was supposed to give you some feedback on that set/vector optimizing stuff we talked about right?
04:50	kotarak	You could also use a zipper, which works for arbitrary nested lists:
04:50	kotarak	(loop [loc (seq-zip (permutations [1 2]))]
04:50	kotarak	(cond
04:50	kotarak	(end? loc) (root loc)
04:50	kotarak	(branch? loc) (recur (next loc))
04:50	kotarak	:else (do
04:50	kotarak	(edit loc * 2)
04:50	kotarak	(next loc))))
04:50	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: yes. did you do some benchmark?
04:50	Lau_of_DK	yea, i'll show you my notes
04:50	Lau_of_DK	test1: strings, fdigit
04:50	Lau_of_DK	(test-frac 500 1000): "Elapsed time: 75177.45724 msecs"
04:50	Lau_of_DK	test2: set, w/o fdigit
04:50	Lau_of_DK	(test-frac 500 1000): "Elapsed time: 17426.179424 msecs"
04:50	Lau_of_DK	score: Improved 430% from original
04:50	Lau_of_DK	test3: set+vector, w/o fdigit
04:50	Lau_of_DK	(test-frac 500 1000): "Elapsed time: 2140.255575 msecs"
04:50	Lau_of_DK	score: Improved 3512% from original 814% from test2
04:50	H4ns	lisppaste8: url
04:50	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
04:51	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: wow. :)
04:52	Lau_of_DK	yep, was a good tip :)
04:56	Lau_of_DK	okay, kotorak, it has to be flexible with the amount of args, lets say I have
04:56	Lau_of_DK	([ 1 2 3 4 ] [ 1 2 2 3]) and I want (1234 1223) to be my output
04:57	Lau_of_DK	(map (fn [[x]] (map #(Integer. (str %)) x)) (permutations [1 2 3]))
04:57	Lau_of_DK	shouldn't this do the trick ?
04:57	Lau_of_DK	it doesnt....
04:57	Lau_of_DK	:)
05:00	kotarak	(map #(Integer/parseInt (apply str %)) (permutations [1 2 3]))
05:00	Lau_of_DK	ok, now holding fast unto the "teach a man how to fish" principle, how did you arrive at that ?
05:01	kotarak	Ok. You want to concatenate the digits: (str 1 2 3 4) => "1234"
05:02	kotarak	You get it in a list: (1 2 3 4) => (apply str (1 2 3 4)) => "1234"
05:02	kotarak	You get it in a list of lists ((1 2 3 4) ...) and want a list of concats: (map ... ((1 2 3 4) ...)) => ("1234" ...)
05:03	kotarak	Insert Integer stuff at right point as necessary...
05:04	kotarak	Start with a small problem. build around your solution.
05:04	Lau_of_DK	Ok, good tips - Im thinking your intuition is a little more fine tuned than mine, but I understand what youre saying
05:05	Lau_of_DK	btw, that approach wrapped in a couple of filters solved euler-41 in about 1 second
05:05	Lau_of_DK	thanks for taking the time kotarak :)
05:05	kotarak	np :)
05:05	kotarak	Whatever euler-41 is..
05:05	Lau_of_DK	http://projecteuler.net/index.php?section=problems&id=41
05:08	kotarak	btw. my zipper example above is actually broken....
05:09	Lau_of_DK	you broke it?
05:16	lisppaste8	kotarak pasted "zipper multiplying all leafs with two" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68799
05:16	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: the correct version looks like this.
05:35	Lau_of_DK	I wish I could Lisp like that :)
05:36	kotarak	Like what?
05:37	Lau_of_DK	Its also SICP like, you can read it instantly, and it makes alot of sense, yet its hard to arrive at those solutions I think
05:39	asbjxrn	Uh.. Swing class for popping up a message?
05:39	kotarak	Yes. But when you are there, it a) so much fun and b) you ask yourself why didn't see it in the first place. One time I shrunk my code by around 8 screen pages, with the same functionality but much clearer. I asked myself afterwards, what I did in the first version.
05:39	Lau_of_DK	asbjxrn, JOptionPane
05:39	Lau_of_DK	haha
05:39	Lau_of_DK	Yes kotarak , I've been there
05:39	asbjxrn	Thanks.
05:40	Lau_of_DK	You can also compare my way of computing infinite fractions with Hoecks, thats about the same difference, and his is 4x faster
05:43	kotarak	But in the end it's all about experience.
05:43	Lau_of_DK	And wits I think
05:43	kotarak	Our student worker only thinks on objects. "Uh.. We have to derive a class, blablabla"
05:44	kotarak	When I show him the clojure solution in three lines, he's totally surprised.
05:44	kotarak	It's because he doesn't think that way.
05:45	Lau_of_DK	Kinda how I felt after years of C and then later C#. When I switched to Linux I got into SBCL, which was a complete and utter mind-opener. Then when I was drowning in the frustrations of non-proprietary CL frameworks, I found Clojure :)
05:48	asbjxrn	For me it was the library situation that drew me to Clojure, plus the cross-platformness of jvm.
05:48	Lau_of_DK	And not Lisp?
05:48	asbjxrn	I'm still more productive in CL.
05:49	asbjxrn	(Doesn't take much...)
05:49	Lau_of_DK	k
05:49	asbjxrn	Funny thing, I wanted to write a program that reads midi in from external devices.
05:51	asbjxrn	Apparently midi in is not something java does all that well by itself. The most likely approach is to use midishare/portmidi which is the same libraries I used in CL. Midishare is even a spinoff of a CL project (Common Music) I think....
05:52	Lau_of_DK	So its drawing you back in :)
05:54	kotarak	Clojure excited me again about Lisp. I always preferred Scheme, because "it's a Lisp-1" or however it is called. But the 1000 implementations put me off. And Clojure has this library advantage. I just like it. :)
05:54	asbjxrn	Not really, I've also gotten rid of my PC, and I don't have lispworks for OS X.
05:57	Lau_of_DK	I never even dug into Scheme because I heard it was mostly a toy for University students :P
05:58	kotarak	I worked on an interpreter for it... But never got far. :\|
06:02	Lau_of_DK	An interpreter for Scheme ?
06:03	kotarak	Yes.
06:03	Lau_of_DK	Written in which language?
06:03	kotarak	C
06:03	Lau_of_DK	:)
06:03	asbjxrn	There's your problem.
06:03	Lau_of_DK	Wybiral wrote a Python interpreter in SBCL
06:04	asbjxrn	Everyone knows that scheme interpreteres are writtein in scheme.
06:04	kotarak	asbjxrn: This was more than ten years ago. I didn't know anything else. (Not to talk about language design... ) But it was fun. :)
06:14	lisppaste8	Lau_of_DK annotated #68789 with "How about this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68789#2
06:38	asbjxrn	Is the namespace idiom still (in-ns 'foo) (clojure/refer 'clojure) ?
06:41	hoeck	asbjxrn: its currently (ns 'foo)
06:41	hoeck	oh, no, just (ns foo)
06:44	asbjxrn	Thanks. That does seem to work.
06:47	thomaslee	hi all
06:47	hoeck	hi
06:50	thomaslee	I'm messing around with gen-class, just trying to get my head around a few things ... a fundamental one that's got me a little stumped is how I would implement a setter in Clojure ... e.g. (defn MyClass-setFoo [this foo] (...))
06:51	thomaslee	and I guess a sub-question here would be how do I declare member data for an instance of MyClass ... would I need to? :P
06:55	hoeck	thomaslee: clojure discourages you to build mutable objects, but admits that its sometimes necessary
06:56	kotarak	thomaslee: you can only have one member, the state. Then you can do something like: (defn MyClass-init [x] [[]�(ref {:foo "default" :bar x})]) (defn MyClass-setFoo [this foo] (dosync (commute (. this state) :foo foo)))
06:56	hoeck	so you can pass a ref to genclass
06:57	kotarak	(commute assoc ....) actually
06:59	thomaslee	hoeck: yeah, I know it's not encouraged but I'm interested to know how it would work for interop purposes :)
06:59	thomaslee	kotarak: great, thanks very much
07:00	hoeck	thomaslee: yeah, sorry for the disclaimer there :)
07:01	thomaslee	meh. totally understand, even appreciate it. :)
07:02	Lau_of_DK	hoeck, I am most impress0red by your fraction. I think I actually understand it now
07:02	Lau_of_DK	Although - I dont get (at all) why it runs 4x faster than mine
07:05	hoeck	Lau_of_DK: its the same algorithm, and its good news, it means lazy-seqs aren't that slow
07:06	Lau_of_DK	and you benched it against my final version which does range 500 - 1000 in about 2 secs
07:07	hoeck	the one that uses vector and set and fdigit
07:07	Lau_of_DK	thats the one
07:07	Lau_of_DK	so yours does 500 fractions in that range in 0.5 secs?
07:09	thomaslee	kotarak, so an equivalent getter would be something like (defn MyClass-getFoo [this] (get (deref (. this state)) :foo)) ?
07:10	kotarak	thomaslee: yes or just ((deref (. this state)) :foo), get is not strictly necessary
07:11	thomaslee	kotarak, cheers!
07:16	hoeck	Lau_of_DK: yes
07:17	Lau_of_DK	hoeck, my hat is off to you sir
07:20	hoeck	Lau_of_DK: i'm not using any strings
07:21	Lau_of_DK	hoeck, no, the most impressive thing about your solution (from my pov) is that you totally escape all this conversion madness that I got myself into
07:22	hoeck	why did you do that this way? (converting integers to strings and back?)
07:23	Lau_of_DK	Only way I knew how, because I was getting error messages in the REPL that I couldnt make head or tail from, so I knew that x->str->desired-type always works :P
07:26	Lau_of_DK	and also, because I hadnt found quot, which I can see you make good use of
07:27	hoeck	yeah, just inserted `quot' into your fraction-function, now you're 30% faster than me :)
07:27	Lau_of_DK	Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
07:27	Lau_of_DK	:)
07:28	Lau_of_DK	How do you like them apples Hoeck? You beat yourself at your own game
07:31	Lau_of_DK	haha, Its improved 29251% from the original function
07:49	thomaslee	kotarak: I'm seeing "No matching field found: state for class MyClass" ... is the state of an object always implicitly called "state" ? or am I doing it wrong? :P
07:50	kotarak	you have to declare it in gen-class with :state. You can call it whatever you like.
07:50	thomaslee	ah right, thanks
07:51	thomaslee	the documentation's a little screwy ... the :state option seems to be appended to the end of the documentation for :factory -- I missed it first time through.
07:52	kotarak	use (doc gen-class) there it's not screwed.
07:52	thomaslee	nice ... thanks for all the help
08:03	thomaslee	sorry kotarak, one more thing: I'm getting a ClassCastException, presumably because setFoo is declared as returning void in :methods, but in actual fact is returning a non-void value due to the behavior of commute ... what's the most logical way to deal with that?
08:03	thomaslee	ugh, "returning void" ... excuse the crap terminology
08:04	kotarak	(do (commute ...) nil) or declaring the setter to return Object, I think.
08:18	thomaslee	kotarak: that seemed to do the trick. Also wound up having to use #(merge % {:foo foo}) in place of ":foo foo" for the setter call ... the value doesn't otherwise seem to be saved to the state
08:20	kotarak	o.O no?
08:21	thomaslee	nope ... not quite sure what was happening. Entirely probable I was doing something wrong, but the merge approach worked off the bat.
08:21	thomaslee	The actual setter implementation looks like this: (dosync (commute (. this state) #(merge % {:cents cents}))) nil)
08:23	kotarak	(dosync (commute (. this state) assoc :foo foo)) does not work?
08:23	thomaslee	ah I missed the assoc first time through
08:23	thomaslee	I'll give that a shot
08:24	thomaslee	yep, that works great
08:24	thomaslee	sorry, I must've misread/misunderstood
08:24	kotarak	pfuu.. World saved again. ;)
08:24	thomaslee	haha ... bit more readable :)
08:25	kotarak	thomaslee: I miswrote initially.
08:26	thomaslee	kotarak, ah I see now
08:27	kotarak	thomaslee: yeah, so I'm also kind of "guilty" if one wants to call it like that...
08:27	thomaslee	kotarak: I'd still be scratching my head if it weren't for your help, so I'm not about to go laying blame ;)
08:43	thomaslee	is it possible to provide a name to defn dynamically in a macro? Something like `(defn (format-string "%s-%s" ~a ~b) (...)) ?
08:44	thomaslee	s/format-string/format/
08:44	kotarak	you do something like this: `(defn ~(symbol (str a "-" b)) ....)
08:50	Pupeno-G	Hello.
08:51	Pupeno-G	So, there are essentially two web frameworks for Clojure, Webjure and Compojure, right? Webjure seems to write a Java-style web application, but using Clojure and Compojure seems a more from-the-scratch approach; am I right?
08:52	Pupeno-G	s/from-the-scratch/from-scratch/
08:56	tWip	define Java-style
08:57	Pupeno-G	tWip: with Servlets and other stuff I don't yet understand or know about.
08:58	tWip	I haven't checked compojure, but I made webjure work with servlets because that is the de-facto way Java web apps are deployed
08:58	tWip	taking advantage of existing infastructure on app servers
08:59	tWip	you don't need to write a single line of Java-code if you write a webjure app
09:02	Pupeno-G	I think I'd like to give webjure a try, but the last time I've tried to understand the Java Webapp world, I've read like 150 pages of Sun's Java EE manual or something like that without a single line of code... when I woke up I just went back to Django. Any recommendations on how to approach it?
09:03	tWip	There is an installation page on the webjure wiki now, you could check that
09:04	thomaslee	http://pastebin.com/d730b2d21 -- I'm seeing "Can't use qualified name as parameter: com.deskchecked.clojure.interop/this" ... what am I doing wrong here?
09:04	tWip	if you have maven installed, the process of getting the demos up and running is quite simple
09:05	thomaslee	http://pastebin.com/db311b01 -- updated code with capitalize implementation and syntax highlighting
09:05	Pupeno-G	tWip: ok, that might be a good starting point. I'll just install maven, thankfully there's a package for my OS.
09:07	thomaslee	all that code is obviously in the namespace that's being complained about in the error message, but I'm curious as to why it's trying to bind "this" to that namespace.
09:07	achim_p__	thomaslee: symbols inside syntax-quote automatically obtain ns prefixes
09:08	achim_p__	try a normal ' quote
09:10	thomaslee	a normal quote where? in place of the backtick/syntax-quote?
09:13	achim_p__	no, just for the "thisses": "this" -> "~'this"
09:14	achim_p__	but it's probably better to use gensym to generate a unique symbol
09:15	thomaslee	ah, brilliant - thanks very much
09:15	achim_p__	i.e. "this" -> "this#" (#-suffixes are a shorthand for gensym)
09:16	thomaslee	achim_p__, why's that? in case make-setter is invoked within another function declaring "this" ?
09:24	achim_p__	thomaslee: in your specific case, it doesn't matter, as far as i see - it's just a thing i accustomed to doing when writing macros, to avoid hard-to-debug name clash errors. plus, i find it easier to read than ~'anything
09:28	thomaslee	achim_p__, sure, understood. Thanks for the tip.
10:55	anyn	Lau_of_DK: I want to see this fraction code...
10:55	Lau_of_DK	http://paste.lisp.org/display/68739 <---3 versions
10:56	Lau_of_DK	As they stand, #3 is the fastest
10:57	AWizzArd	hi
10:57	Lau_of_DK	Heya
11:02	arbscht	hm, looks like lisppaste is down
11:02	anyn	hmm. paste.lisp.org is having a hard time
11:02	anyn	I concur
11:02	anyn	there it is
11:13	anyn	that's deep stuff
11:33	Lau_of_DK	user=> (trunc [1030])
11:33	Lau_of_DK	["1030" "103" "10" "1" "" ["030" "30" "0" ""]]
11:33	Lau_of_DK	Gents, how do I convert all these to Ints as concisely as possible?
11:35	AWizzArd	How do I test for bar being not a collection, so, no string/list/map/vector/set? CL's (atom bar)
11:36	duck1123	(not (seq? bar)) maybe?
11:37	AWizzArd	no, seq? tests only for lists
11:37	AWizzArd	(not (seq? [1 2 3])) ==> true and (not (seq? '(1 2 3))) ==> false
11:38	duck1123	(nil? (rest bar))
11:39	fyuryu	you can use derive for PersistentVector and others and then use isa?
11:40	AWizzArd	fyuryu: what do you mean?
11:40	fyuryu	AWizzArd: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/9cc9926de1bdb128
11:40	AWizzArd	I could also do something like (not-any? #(% bar) [seq? vector? string? map? set?]) ;-)
11:41	fyuryu	AWizzArd: because I don't think there is something like atom
11:42	AWizzArd	I think the same, at least by skimming through the api and boot.clj I didn't find it, and also no (col? bar)
11:43	fyuryu	AWizzArd: didn't know about not-any?, when did that happen?
11:44	AWizzArd	I don't know when it was added
11:44	fyuryu	AWizzArd: ok, not important ;-) just thinking to myself
11:47	AWizzArd	duck1123: (nil? (rest 5))
11:48	duck1123	yeah, I noticed that
11:58	Chouser	there is (coll?)
11:58	Chouser	string is not a Collection -- is that ok?
12:15	fyuryu	Chouser: great, I was at the repl, but thought to myself:
12:15	fyuryu	Chouser: "no, I bet there is no coll?" ane didn't evet try it
12:19	AWizzArd	there is no col? yet
12:19	AWizzArd	we should add it to the svn
12:19	AWizzArd	Chouser: why is a string not a collection?
12:19	fyuryu	coll?
12:20	AWizzArd	It surely is not a very generic one as it can only eat chars, but one can see it as a bag/collection full of them
12:20	AWizzArd	I personally like col? more fyuryu
12:21	anyn	If I'm converting a large java class into clojure (where, you know, most methods become functions) and said large class implements many interface methods, some of which are callbacks, with logic distributed throughout... what's the preferred way to manage that?
12:24	anyn	it's weird. the class implements "SessionListener" and one method registers the class with a session with _session.setSessionListener(this); ... while other methods implement some session listener methods, like "messageReceived" .. so, when the implementation of an interface is spread across the whole class, how does one translate that?
12:26	anyn	I can't proxy in every function, cause those various functions won't be recognized as the registered SessionListener in the session collection, right?
12:34	anyn	brb
12:45	arbscht	Lau_of_DK: I presume you want to map Integer/parseInt to the strings, but how do you want to treat ""?
13:02	duck1123	has anyone here ever solved euler-12 in clojure? If so, do you know how long it took?
13:04	StartsWithK	hi
13:05	StartsWithK	what is the state of aot compiler?
13:20	Lau_of_DK	arbscht, I've fixed it, thanks
13:20	Lau_of_DK	the trick was to avoid those ""'s
14:00	Chouser	StartsWithK: AOT compiler isn't ready yet, but I'm under the impression it's close.
14:02	Chouser	AWizzArd: collections can hold anything. If you want to treat a string like a seq, you may: (seq "foo")
14:06	StartsWithK	Chouser: thanks
14:09	Chouser	anyn: you may need something like: (defn make-thing [] (let [somestate ...] (proxy [Listener1] (foo ..refer to somestate...)) (proxy [Listener2] (bar ..refer to somestate..)))
14:10	AWizzArd	Chouser: I want to argue that a string is a collection.
14:11	AWizzArd	It's a typed collection and can only contain chars, as opposed to generic/dynamic collections which can hold any objects.
14:12	Chouser	well it may be a collection, but it's not a Collection.
14:12	Chouser	It's a Java class, and so Java has set the rules for interacting with it.
14:18	AWizzArd	I am talking from the view of Clojure. Do you think one can't see it as a collection but instead as an atom?
14:19	AWizzArd	It may be very well a Java String under the hood. But I would like to abstract that implementation detail away.
14:19	duck1123	wouldn't that mess up the ability to use a clojure string as a java string unmodified?
14:22	AWizzArd	I just mean that I see a string as a container datatype, and not something atomic like a number or character. Under the hood it's just zeros and ones, but I don't care. For me it's important that I know a string can contain a number of atomic objects, in this case: characters.
14:25	lisppaste8	Lau_of_DK pasted "Speed/Java-heap/Help" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68822
14:25	Lau_of_DK	Okay, you old-school clojure-bred ninjas. Why does this fail so badly ?
14:28	AWizzArd	Argh, why putting the parameter list not in the line of (defn function [parameter here] ...)?
14:29	Lau_of_DK	because thats not 1337
14:29	Lau_of_DK	according to wikipedia :P
14:30	AWizzArd	I'm feeling ice cold now after I saw that ;-)
14:30	duck1123	does it bother anyone else that the doc-string goes before the param list?
14:30	AWizzArd	me :-)
14:30	Lau_of_DK	look, you guys are missing the point, I wasnt asking for cosmetic tips here, I need this to compuete quicker and without blowing any heaps, any input on tht? :)
14:31	AWizzArd	but Lau felt so free to put the parameter vector into the next line even when his functions had no docstring
14:32	Lau_of_DK	lol
14:32	arbscht	duck1123: it doesn't bother me. in fact, it makes sense, because a function can have multiple signatures
14:32	duck1123	I'm just used to elisp, where the order is reversed
14:33	AWizzArd	in common lisp it's also different
14:33	AWizzArd	arbscht: could you give an example of what you mean by multi signatures?
14:34	AWizzArd	you mean like (defn str ...) in boot.cjl?
14:34	AWizzArd	or (defn concat ...) in boot.clj?
14:34	kotarak	AWizzArd: (defn foo ([x] :one) ([x y] :two)) (foo :x) => :one, (foo :x :y) => :two
14:35	arbscht	AWizzArd: yes, those are such examples
14:35	AWizzArd	okay, so destructuring functions.. yup, for those it makes sense, I agree
14:35	kotarak	No. It's not destructuring. It's different arity.
14:36	kotarak	(defn foo [[x y]] ..) this is destructuring
14:36	AWizzArd	yes, you are right
14:36	duck1123	Lau_of_DK: sorry, my clojure isn't to the point yet where I'm even quite sure what that code is doing, let alone why it fails
14:38	Lau_of_DK	I know that the trunc isnt very pretty, but this is what it does
14:38	Lau_of_DK	user=>(trunc [123])
14:38	Lau_of_DK	(123 23 3 21 1)
14:38	Lau_of_DK	or to put it another way
14:38	Lau_of_DK	123
14:38	Lau_of_DK	23
14:38	Lau_of_DK	3
14:38	Lau_of_DK	123
14:38	Lau_of_DK	12
14:38	Lau_of_DK	1
14:43	hircus	Lau_of_DK: this for Project Euler? :)
14:43	Lau_of_DK	Yes sir
14:43	AWizzArd	Lau_of_DK: what do you expect trunc to be doing for (trunc [12345])?
14:44	Lau_of_DK	12345
14:44	Lau_of_DK	1234
14:44	Lau_of_DK	123
14:44	Lau_of_DK	12
14:44	Lau_of_DK	1
14:44	Lau_of_DK	and then from the other side as well
14:44	Lau_of_DK	2345
14:44	Lau_of_DK	345
14:44	Lau_of_DK	45
14:44	Lau_of_DK	5
14:45	hircus	not familiar with Clojure's lazy sequences -- would filtering a lazy seq give a lazy seq or an eager one?
14:45	Lau_of_DK	Would still be lazy
14:45	AWizzArd	Is this part of the task? Or why do you test these strange things for being a prime?
14:45	Lau_of_DK	http://projecteuler.net/index.php?section=problems&id=37
14:46	hircus	Lau_of_DK: seems like you're better off eagerly computing primes up to a certain point
14:46	Lau_of_DK	I have no way of knowing what that point might be
14:47	hircus	when doing an earlier problem (sum of all primes < a million, IIRC) I found that Haskell's lazy prime number sieve became too slow
14:47	Lau_of_DK	k
14:47	hircus	true. so I guess you can keep retrying as long as the number of primes you find is less than 11
14:48	Lau_of_DK	Thats a good idea
14:48	hircus	haven't tried that problem yet, though. how many have you done?
14:48	Lau_of_DK	I need a quick reboot, then I'll get right on it
14:48	Lau_of_DK	I dont know, it blew the heap before I could see. The last number is 3797, and theres only 1 more known to man, I imagine its quite high
14:50	duck1123	hircus: if that was 10, I just did that last night ~10 sec done lazily
14:51	achim_p__	lisppaste8: url
14:51	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
14:53	hircus	duck1123: ah. I don't have the non-working Haskell code anymore though. but I might just not be writing it in the proper way; Haskell is tricky to write fast code in
14:54	duck1123	this is what I came up with: http://clojure-euler.wikispaces.com/Problem+10
14:54	Chouser	hm, I apparently abandoned projecteuler after problem 36
14:54	duck1123	I was trying problem 12, but it was taking forever
14:55	duck1123	never did find an answer, it was slowing down my computer too much
14:55	lisppaste8	achim_p pasted "???" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68825
14:56	achim_p__	can anybody help explaining what's happening there? i just don't see it
14:56	hircus	duck1123: problem 12 took me quite fast in clojure
14:57	hircus	I used unchecked operations since the resulting numbers won't really get too big
14:57	duck1123	hircus: do you happen to have your code, I want to see what I was doing wrong
14:57	hircus	duck1123: sure. pastebin?
14:57	duck1123	that works
14:58	lisppaste8	hircus pasted "Euler #12" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68826
14:59	Lau_of_DK	hircus, feel free to contribute: http://clojure-euler.wikispaces.com/
15:00	achim_p__	(= #{1 4} #{2 3}) ; => true - now it makes sense again!
15:00	Lau_of_DK	glad you worked it out achim_p__ , I was lost
15:01	achim_p__	mmh, they aren't exactly equal, are they?
15:01	Lau_of_DK	if you add them together they are
15:02	achim_p__	then we had to have (= 4 3), because 7 = 7
15:02	Lau_of_DK	if the comparison is just based on sum, then it makes sense
15:02	Lau_of_DK	try {10 2} {8 4}
15:02	achim_p__	why should a comparison be based on a sum?
15:02	Lau_of_DK	bug maybe? :)
15:02	hircus	Lau_of_DK: cool, will do
15:03	hircus	found another Clojure Euler project at Google Code but the code there was atrocious
15:04	hircus	whoever ran it reimplemented things like even? and did the world's slowest exponentiation function
15:05	Lau_of_DK	Well, things can also be improved upon, so its probably a good idea just to consolidate on wikispaces
15:06	hircus	yup, I agree that a Wiki is actually a good place for things like this
15:06	Lau_of_DK	I think the "Optimal toolkit" will be sweet. Specially if people are diligent in bencmarking their stuff
15:06	hircus	should we rename the problems to all have three digit numbers, so that they sort properly?
15:06	Lau_of_DK	Good idea
15:07	Lau_of_DK	I dont know who owns it, I think it was started by achim_p, so I cant really decide anything, but it sounds good
15:07	achim_p__	can anybody reproduce this equality?
15:07	bitbckt	achim_p__: came late to the game. which?
15:07	hircus	Lau_of_DK: ok, just applied
15:07	Lau_of_DK	achim_p__, I'd love to help, but Im still waiting for my filter to return
15:07	achim_p__	(= #{1 4} #{2 3}) ; => true
15:08	AWizzArd	(= #{-100 -50} #{-210 60}) ==> also true :-)
15:08	hircus	achim_p__: same here
15:08	bitbckt	nope, false here
15:08	hircus	bitbckt: which Clojure build are you on?
15:08	achim_p__	bitbckt: which revision?
15:08	bitbckt	I'm on the 9/16
15:08	bitbckt	just about to say, lol
15:08	hircus	I'm on an SVN checkout from a few days ago. looks like new bug
15:09	achim_p__	okay, thanks for your feedback!
15:09	bitbckt	of course.
15:10	hircus	Lau_of_DK: using Python, the 11th number you're looking for is under 1 million :)
15:10	bitbckt	git bisect to the rescue...
15:11	Lau_of_DK	hircus, I cant except anything coming from Python, sorry
15:13	hircus	Lau_of_DK: hehe. well, I can port the code to Clojure real quick
15:13	Lau_of_DK	Please do so
15:17	achim_p__	http://www.bitbucket.org/shoover/clojure-mirror/changeset/9a6760cf79b9/#chg-src/jvm/clojure/lang/APersistentSet.java
15:17	achim_p__	might be this change that breaks it
15:18	Lau_of_DK	Considered posting it to the Google group so Rich could have a look ?
15:18	bitbckt	achim_p__: 49a1829 looks like the first bad commit
15:18	bitbckt	r1052 in the SVN repo
15:19	bitbckt	from the comments: unified equality and hashCode semantics for sets/maps/lists with java.util
15:19	Lau_of_DK	hircus, I have a working clojure solution now,
15:20	bitbckt	heh... you found it first
15:20	bitbckt	damnit ;-)
15:20	achim_p__	bitbckt: :) thanks! you used git bisect?
15:20	bitbckt	yessir
15:20	bitbckt	I didn't script it, since there were so few commits... it goes slower
15:21	Lau_of_DK	bitbckt, want me to get you that violin?
15:21	bitbckt	hehe
15:21	Lau_of_DK	:)
15:23	achim_p__	bitbckt: i don't really know git, but the bisect feature looks very cool
15:23	bitbckt	achim_p__: it works wonders
15:24	bitbckt	achim_p__: ... darcs and hg have it, too
15:27	achim_p__	ok, then i'll stick with hg. i'm slowly getting used to it. bzr was probably my favourite, in ease-of-use terms, but the only free hosting service was launchpad, which is a complete catastrophy in ease-of-use-terms :)
15:30	AWizzArd	achim_p__: do you think it could have to do ith the hash?
15:30	hircus	Lau_of_DK: ugh, turning an integer to a string in Clojure could be made a bit easier
15:31	Chouser	I think it's a typo.
15:31	hircus	Lau_of_DK: ah nevermind, misread something
15:31	bitbckt	achim_p__: you don't need validation from me, but I like hg, too. I use both on-and-off nearly everyday.
15:36	Lau_of_DK	Chouser, did you catch cgrand's update on his blog?
15:37	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: heh, nope.
15:38	lisppaste8	hircus pasted "stack problem computing primes" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68828
15:39	hircus	any idea what's going on here? (not the Clojury way to do things, but it really should not fail, no?)
15:39	Chouser	achim_p__: nice catch -- I think I spotted the typo.
16:02	Pupeno	Can webjure be used with Glassfish instead of Jetty?
16:03	achim_p__	Chouser: cool, thanks for tracking it down!
16:08	sohail	I may have missed this in the reference, but what does #^ mean?
16:09	sohail	ah, nevermind. It's in the reader section
16:09	sohail	pretty f'in cool man
16:12	AWizzArd	In principle a Clojure developer does not need the java jdk (installed), right? The jre is enough?
16:14	Lau_of_DK	Yes
16:17	AWizzArd	And do we know what version of the jre is needed? Is 1.5.0_04 enough?
16:18	Lau_of_DK	I think so
16:18	Lau_of_DK	I remember trying, I think it succeded
16:19	arohner	I'm running 1.5.0_16 here
16:19	bitbckt	JRE 1.5.0_16 works
16:19	bitbckt	heh
16:19	AWizzArd	good
16:26	sohail	just checking my understanding. If there is no singleton empty-list value, each empty-list value will return nil when asked to iterate, which is almost the same thing right?
16:29	arohner	isn't there a function to flatten a vector? i.e. [ [1 2] [3 4]] -> [1 2 3 4]
16:29	AWizzArd	(= () ()) ==> true and (identical? () ()) ==> true
16:30	sohail	AWizzArd, what are you showing there?
16:31	arbscht	arohner: (mapcat identity [[1 2] [3 4]]) => [1 2 3 4]
16:33	Chouser	or (apply concat [[1 2] [3 4]])
16:33	Chouser	sohail: yes -- calling seq on any empty collection returns nil
16:34	arohner	thanks!
16:34	sohail	that doesn't really flatten nested lists
16:34	Chouser	arohner: there's also something in clojure.contrib if you want arbitrary depth flattening
16:34	sohail	err vectors
16:34	sohail	ah
16:37	AWizzArd	sohail: it seems there is a singleton empty list
16:39	sohail	AWizzArd, I think the reason is that immutable structures define = as value comparison, not identity
16:40	sohail	oh wait you did identical?
16:40	sohail	does that use .equals or java == ?
16:41	sohail	Reference comparison. Returns true if x is the same object as y, false otherwise.
16:41	sohail	k!
16:41	AWizzArd	I don't know java, but it is like Common Lisps eq
16:42	AWizzArd	it makes sense that there exists exactly one empty list
16:43	sohail	what is (rest '(1)) supposed to give you?
16:43	arohner	I think that clojure lists share structure whenever possible
16:44	arohner	so the empty list is just a particular instance of lists sharing structure
16:44	sohail	has anyone tried to write a GUI using clojure?
16:44	AWizzArd	in Clojure I would suppose it should not give me anything, so nil would be cool
16:45	arbscht	many have
16:45	sohail	arbscht, have any examples?
16:45	AWizzArd	sohail: hehe, this one maybe: http://clojure.org/jvm_hosted
16:45	sohail	AWizzArd, ya I saw that
16:45	sohail	I meant a real one :-)
16:46	sohail	is enclojure written in clojure?
16:46	sohail	"enclojure is written predominately in Clojure."
16:46	arbscht	there are snippets here http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/22e4696550b6c4fa
16:47	arbscht	this is a little game in Swing http://blog.jalat.com/2008/10/game-clojure-version.html
16:48	sohail	hang on. you can do interactive GUI development? cool...
16:48	AWizzArd	The guy for that game should have made it available as webstart or applet also
16:48	arbscht	I wrote a tiny implementation of Snake on Swing http://www.plt1.com/1070/even-smaller-snake/
16:49	AWizzArd	sohail: yes, you can change your gui from within clojure while your program is running
16:49	AWizzArd	arbscht: where is the binary for that? ;-)
16:49	AWizzArd	you could make it available by a mouse click
16:49	sohail	hmm, it killed the REPL when I hit ALT-F4
16:50	arbscht	depends on the default close operation of the frame
16:59	lisppaste8	achim pasted "lazy powerset enumeration" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68832
16:59	achim_p__	anybody in for a game of clojure pingpong? ;) my first lazy seq - no doubt there is a better way
17:00	achim_p__	weird indentation
17:03	hircus	achim_p__: ping pong?
17:05	achim_p__	ah, it was golf, not ping pong (http://clj-me.blogspot.com/) - they're pretty close, white ball etc.
17:09	Lau_of_DK	lol
17:09	Lau_of_DK	etc?
17:11	achim_p__	clubs
17:12	Lau_of_DK	if somebody has the time, would you mind writing clomacs ?
17:22	hircus	Clomacs would be really neat. probably more feasible than the Scheme port of Emacs :)
17:24	AWizzArd	suns java sdk in debians/ubunts package list is called openjdk?
17:24	arbscht	sun-java6-jdk or sun-java5-jdk
17:25	AWizzArd	uh, is their java different from the openjdk stuff?
17:26	arbscht	it's non-free
17:45	Lau_of_DK	http://clojure-euler.wikispaces.com/ <-- Counting 17 solutions now, everybody feel free to contribute
18:08	hircus	silly question, but how do I use the closure.set functions?
18:11	jao	hi. is M-. (find-source-location) supposed to work in slime for clojure?
18:13	AWizzArd	hircus: apply them on arguments
18:13	sohail	how do you use multimethods with structs?
18:13	hircus	AWizzArd: I can't get them imported, that's the problem
18:13	arohner	hircus: (use 'clojure.set)
18:14	sohail	it isn't obvious to me how to make (defstruct rectangle ...) use :shape as the dispatch function
18:14	hircus	arohner: aha. thanks
18:15	arohner	hircus: also look at (doc require)
18:17	sohail	anyone know how to convert the multiple dispatch example to use structs?
18:18	AWizzArd	can you be more specific?
18:18	sohail	AWizzArd, the one here: http://clojure.org/multimethods
18:18	sohail	I can't see how to set the :Shape key to always return :Circle or :Rectangle via defstruct
18:21	AWizzArd	the keyword itself can be used as a function
18:21	AWizzArd	(defmulti blah count)
18:21	sohail	I know
18:22	AWizzArd	this means that whenever blah is called it's arguments will be applied to count
18:22	AWizzArd	(blah something) will become: (count something)
18:22	AWizzArd	this yields a result
18:22	AWizzArd	(defmethod blah 3 [arg] "hallo")
18:22	AWizzArd	and now you can say: (blah [10 20 30]) ==> "hallo"
18:22	sohail	but how would I define the rectangle struct so that rectangle always returns :Rectangle for that function?
18:23	AWizzArd	because (count [10 20 30]) yields 3
18:23	sohail	if I have my own make-rectangle, I can return {:Shape :Rectangle ... }
18:23	AWizzArd	yes
18:23	sohail	and so (:Shape (make-rectangle ...)) => :Rectangle
18:23	AWizzArd	and it must have an even number of elements
18:23	sohail	but how do I use defstruct to do that?
18:24	AWizzArd	(defstruct foo :name :age)
18:24	sohail	and..
18:24	AWizzArd	and now you can have a (def x (struct foo "Carl" 29))
18:24	AWizzArd	(:age x) ==> 29
18:24	sohail	I got that
18:24	sohail	but I don't want the user to have to set :Shape, I want it to have a default value
18:25	StartsWithK	(defstruct rectange :Shape :x :y :w :h)
18:25	AWizzArd	now lets dispatch on the age
18:25	arbscht	you cannot set a default value when you define a struct. it's not a class
18:25	sohail	oh, are there classes too?
18:25	arbscht	no :)
18:25	AWizzArd	you have something much better
18:25	AWizzArd	Paul Graham said already long time ago: functional programming + macros outperforms OOP
18:26	sohail	yeah don't worry, I get it
18:26	sohail	where is CLOJS ? :-)
18:26	sohail	or is it CJOS
18:26	AWizzArd	CLOS
18:26	arbscht	there are ad-hoc hierarchies which, admittedly, I'm not fully familiar with
18:26	arbscht	see isa and derive
18:28	sohail	ok, I guess I'll look at it later
18:28	AWizzArd	When you create one million hash table objects that all share their keys and only differ in value, then you waste some memore. defstruct, as I understand it, enables you to create these one mio instances and they all share the keys (= the struct fields).
18:29	sohail	ok, that's fine
18:29	AWizzArd	do you feel now better about this example from the clojure site?
18:29	sohail	but I don't understand how I would implement any sane sort of multimethod based API without some support for default values
18:29	sohail	no
18:29	AWizzArd	let's make it 100% clear, but you need to tell exactly what is unclear
18:30	sohail	I mean, as long as the user can do: (struct rectangle :Shape :Circle ...) things can go pear-shaped
18:30	sohail	http://clojure.org/multimethods
18:30	AWizzArd	it has 16 lines... which of those are still puzzeling?
18:31	AWizzArd	it = the example on that site you just posted
18:31	sohail	convert that to using structs... without the factory functions, the user can accidentally type (struct rectangle :Shape :Circle ...)
18:32	sohail	ok I gtg just now
18:32	sohail	bbl
18:37	AWizzArd	sohail: as I understand it you can't do this example with structs. If you have a (defstruct rect :wd :ht) and say (def x (struct rect 10 20)) then there is no way to find out that x is a rect. If you want to keep this info then you would need to do something like: (def x (conj {:Shape :Rect } (struct rect 10 20))) and never forget to conjunct these things whenever you create a rect.
18:44	StartsWithK	AWizzArd: But then :Shape key will not be shared
18:45	AWizzArd	StartsWithK: as I see the example from the Clojure site :Shape won't be shared anyway.
18:46	StartsWithK	AWizzArd: but example is not using struct
18:46	AWizzArd	right, so it can't share the key information.
18:47	AWizzArd	the example from Rich does not make use of the data structure "Structured Map"
18:48	AWizzArd	a struct is a table where you can have any number of lines where the columns have headlines (= "fields" of the struct)
18:49	StartsWithK	but is example how to use multimetods, nothing more, it's minimaln in that way
18:49	AWizzArd	yes, he uses multimethods, but I think sohail is trained in oop thinking and tries to find out how this example would look like if Rich had used structs.
18:50	StartsWithK	when you want to use struct, and you know :Shape key will use in every struct you create, then you should put it inside struct itself
18:50	StartsWithK	will be used*
18:50	AWizzArd	StartsWithK: this would still be a leaky abstraction, as you would every time you create a rect have to say (struct Shape :rect 10 20)
18:52	StartsWithK	but you will get key shaing, struct have any other advantages
18:52	StartsWithK	sharing*
18:52	StartsWithK	i don't see how not sharing :Shape is more or less of leaky abstraction
18:53	AWizzArd	because you need to explicitly give the same argument whenever you create a rect
18:53	AWizzArd	the example on the page shows how you only have to specific width and height
18:56	StartsWithK	(defn rect [wd ht] {:Shape :Rect :wd wd :ht ht})
18:56	AWizzArd	yes
18:56	StartsWithK	it gives :Shape every time you create rectangle
18:56	nicknull	is there a database lib shipping with clojure?
18:56	StartsWithK	and not only width and height
18:56	StartsWithK	nicknull: there is sql lib in clojure-contrib
18:56	AWizzArd	nicknull: yes, the one from Java
18:57	AWizzArd	StartsWithK: yes, this is right, and it is exactly what I said.
18:57	nicknull	lol
18:57	StartsWithK	nicknull: http://sourceforge.net/projects/clojure-contrib
18:57	AWizzArd	It is just not a struct
18:57	StartsWithK	AWizzArd: you sad " the example on the page shows how you only have to specific width and height"
18:57	AWizzArd	it is a hash map
18:58	nicknull	ty Clojure really is cool. so many alternative langs lack practicality
18:58	StartsWithK	and you have to specify :Shape to
18:58	AWizzArd	yes, and you have.. the function you posted takes 2 arguments, not 3
18:58	StartsWithK	but that is a factory function
18:58	AWizzArd	no, :Shape is always set to a symbol
18:58	AWizzArd	right
18:58	AWizzArd	and there is no defstruct in the example, so, no structured map, but a hash map instead
18:58	StartsWithK	so, you will have a factory function for your rectangle struct too
18:59	AWizzArd	(defstruct rect :hd :wd)
18:59	StartsWithK	only differance is your keys will get shared
18:59	StartsWithK	there is nothing more struct will do for you
18:59	AWizzArd	(struct rect 10 20) ==> {:ht 10 :wt 20}
18:59	AWizzArd	and not {:Shape :rect :ht 10 :wt 20}
19:00	StartsWithK	but if you want to dispach on shape type you will have to have :Shape key in there
19:00	AWizzArd	absolutely
19:00	AWizzArd	and this is why I said to sohail that he can not use defstruct here
19:00	nicknull	but clojure got it all
19:00	StartsWithK	why not?
19:00	AWizzArd	show me how StartsWithK
19:01	AWizzArd	Maybe I don't understand this mechanism well enough
19:01	AWizzArd	I would like to see how you do it as sohail asked for
19:02	AWizzArd	do the same example as in http://clojure.org/multimethods but you must not have factory functions
19:02	StartsWithK	(defstruct rectangle-struct :Shape :w :h) (defn rectangle [w h] (struct :Rect w h)) (defmulti area :Shape)
19:02	StartsWithK	(defmethod :Rect ...)
19:02	AWizzArd	sohail explicitly disallowed functions..
19:02	AWizzArd	you may not use defn
19:02	StartsWithK	how you mean no factory function
19:02	StartsWithK	that makes no sense
19:02	AWizzArd	he wanted it
19:03	AWizzArd	and I answered that this way this example can't be don
19:03	AWizzArd	done
19:03	StartsWithK	yes, i was reading it
19:03	AWizzArd	of course it makes no sense, but this was what he asked for
19:04	rukubites	Hello, I am a common lisp programmer and I use Slime extensively. I am looking into using Clojure for an upcoming project, and I have clojure and swank-clojure installed. Unfortunately slime-eval-print-last-expression (C-j in slime-scratch) is failing, I think because it uses asynchronous evaluation. Is this a known issue or a regression? Is it fixable?
19:04	AWizzArd	and this means that if you have a (defstruct Rect :Shape :w :h) then you must always provide an argument for the :Shape key
19:04	StartsWithK	but, this is what i sad is wrong: (def x (conj {:Shape :Rect } (struct rect 10 20)))
19:04	StartsWithK	becouse you don't get :Shape key sharing
19:05	AWizzArd	no StartsWithK, I explained a few lines before that the struct rect looks like this: (defstruct rect :w :h). As you see, no :shape key there.
19:06	rukubites	I really want to be able to adapt my workflow for working with clojure, and I use C-j all the time.
19:07	AWizzArd	StartsWithK: sohail was thinking in OOP terms. If Clojures struct where really a struct then saying (defstruct Rect :h :w) would be fine, because (struct rect 10 20) would yield an object on which you could do something like: (is-rect? (struct rect 10 20)) ==> true
19:08	StartsWithK	You sad: " If you want to keep this info then you would need to do something like: (def x (conj {:Shape :Rect } (struct rect 10 20))) and never forget to conjunct these things whenever you create a rect."
19:09	AWizzArd	yes, of course
19:09	StartsWithK	and i sad: But then :Shape key will not be shared
19:09	AWizzArd	and i agree
19:09	AWizzArd	shared in the sense of StructMaps (the datatype)
19:10	AWizzArd	and I also say: as this example stands on the website, there also is no sharing
19:10	rukubites	Anyone?
19:11	AWizzArd	rect always returns a fresh Map, but not a StructMap
19:12	AWizzArd	:Shape :Rect is shared in the sense of being a key/value pair in that Map. But it is not shared in the sense of a StructMap, where the keys don't consume memory, but only the values.
19:12	AWizzArd	rukubites: for me slime+Clojure works fine. But I never used your key combination, so I can't say anything about it
19:13	rukubites	AWizzArd: if it is convenient, can you test to see if it works? I downloaded all the code fresh today, and if it works, that would indicate a regression.
19:14	AWizzArd	what do I have to do?
19:17	rukubites	M-x slime-scratch , then in the buffer type (+ 1 1) and press C-j after the last bracket.
19:17	rukubites	C-x C-e after the bracket works correctly.
19:17	AWizzArd	it says: "Evaluation aborted." after I pressed C-j
19:18	rukubites	Yes. Normally it inserts a newline and writes out "2" below the form.
19:18	rukubites	Thank you.
19:18	rukubites	I will email the list.
19:18	AWizzArd	I see
19:19	rukubites	It is the way I standardly develop, in a buffer. I don't really like using the REPL directly.
19:19	AWizzArd	I see, I never used slime-scratch
19:19	AWizzArd	always do CL on the relp, since many years :-)
19:20	arbscht	it appears swank:eval-and-grab-output is unimplemented by swank-clojure
19:22	rukubites	Ahhh. I am not a slime/swank programmer per-se, do you know whether it is unimplemented because it is "hard" or because it is just "not done yet" ?
19:23	AWizzArd	no idea
19:23	rukubites	AWizzard: I like using scratch pads because it is easier to morph exploratory code into working functions.
19:23	arbscht	rukubites: I would say "not done yet"
19:24	rukubites	arbscht: That is promising. heh I could make it my "hello world" in Clojure.
19:26	rukubites	Looking at the allegro implementation it doesn't look too hard.
19:35	rukubites	arbscht: I am not sure you are right. The function swank:eval-and-grab-output is implemented in swank.lisp, not in one of the implementation-dependent files.
19:35	rukubites	But then, I guess a lot more would be done in swank-clojure.
19:35	rukubites	(than if it was a CL implemantation.)
19:47	arbscht	rukubites: swank-clojure does not use swank.lisp. slime's implementation-specific arrangement only applies to CL
19:58	rukubites	arbscht: Yes, I came to that conclusion too, you're right, of course.
20:13	anyn	What is "AOT"?
20:14	anyn	ahead of time, got it
20:15	anyn	and it's purpose for clojure?
20:15	anyn	I'm guessing that would allow clojure to work on the android platform, right?
20:16	Chouser	anyn: AOT compilation would allow you to produce .class files, rather than just a running program, from .clj files.
20:16	Chouser	anyn: right, android
20:16	anyn	right, deploy to jvm without the clojure.jar
20:16	anyn	right?
20:16	Chouser	also, delivering a clojure app with no Compiler or ASM libs.
20:16	anyn	right
20:17	Chouser	well, you'd still need the runtime classes from clojure.jar. The data structures and such.
20:17	anyn	which would be pretty sweet
20:17	Chouser	but it'd still be fair bit smaller than the current clojure.jar, which may help for mobile phones and such
20:17	anyn	does the jre come with a jit compiler anyway?
20:18	anyn	jre comes with hotspot, doesn't it
20:18	Chouser	also clojure currently uses a custom classloader whch can cause some deployment difficulties in some contexts, like applets.
20:18	anyn	ooooh
20:18	anyn	assimilation is key
20:18	Chouser	anyn: I think so, but that's to compile java bytecode to native instructions, right? we'd still want that. :-)
20:19	anyn	oooh
20:26	AWizzArd	shouldn't we be able to get Clojure programs running on mobile phones today?
20:44	pjb3	Is it documented somewhere how you use clojure contrib?
20:45	pjb3	I assume you just download, make the jar, add it to your claspath
20:45	anyn	AWizzArd: yea, but the android has a stack-based jre... all code has to be precompiled to bytecode
20:46	anyn	i mean 'jvm'
20:48	anyn	not sure if javaME is compatible.. android is j2StandardEdition
20:48	Chouser	you don't need to make a jar
20:49	Chouser	just svn-get clojure contrib and add clojure-contrib/src/ to your Java classpath
20:57	pjb3	then how do you load it once it's on your classpath?
20:57	pjb3	require?
20:59	arohner	pjb3: yes, require or use
20:59	arohner	pjb3: (use 'clojure.contrib.sql)
21:00	pjb3	arohner: thanks
21:21	Chouser	pjb3: best is to use the ns macro, like (ns pjb3 (:require [clojure.contrib.sql :as sql]))
21:21	pjb3	Chouser: so what does that mean?
21:22	pjb3	I would call pjb3/whatever
21:22	pjb3	if whatever is a function in clojure.contrib.sql
21:23	Chouser	do that at the top of your file (or whenever in the repl) and you can call sql functions list (sql/with-connection ...)
21:23	Chouser	s/list/like/
21:24	pjb3	what's the purpose of (ns pjb3 ?
21:24	Chouser	at the repl I usually say (ns user ...)
21:24	Chouser	that's your own namespace, so new thing you define go there and won't conflict with anybody else's.
21:25	pjb3	why not do (require [clojure.contrib.sql :as sql])
21:25	Chouser	that's okay, though you have to quote the vector
21:26	Chouser	if you're putting it in a file, though, using a single ns call at the top is idiomatic.
21:27	pjb3	sure, because that defines and sets the namespace, right?
21:33	Chouser	yep
22:04	AWizzArd	How are lists implemented in Clojure? Can concat add in constant time to the end of a list?
22:04	arohner	I think conj adds in constant time to the beginning
22:04	Chouser	AWizzArd: how would that be possible without mutation?
22:06	AWizzArd	Rich explained he used these crazy data structures that allow magic things. One can cons and conj stuff to huge sequences and Clojure does not need to make a full copy.
22:07	Chouser	:-) ok, good point.
22:07	arohner	right, so if I have the list a -> b -> c, you can make d -> a -> b -> c without modifying the original list
22:08	AWizzArd	arohner: it is unfortunately a bit more complex... all other vars that have a reference to that list must not see my change.
22:08	Chouser	I'm pretty sure the PersistentList is just a plain ol' singly-linked list. So no, concat would be linear time on one of the lists.
22:08	arohner	but if you want a -> b -> c -> d, you now have to modify the c cell
22:08	Chouser	AWizzArd: nope, arohner's right.
22:09	duck1123	don't vectors add to the end of the list though
22:09	arohner	duck1123: yes, vectors do
22:09	arohner	as a singlely linked list, 'a' has no idea that 'd' is pointing at it
22:09	AWizzArd	right, I agree
22:10	Chouser	anybody that had a ref to "a" keeps that, while anybody that added "d" (or anything else) sees their own addition plus the old list.
22:10	AWizzArd	but I don't know if it is a plain old linked list
22:10	Chouser	I'm pretty sure it is.
22:10	AWizzArd	If that is true and we have a list with, say, 2gb of data then consing 1 byte in front of it will result in a copying session of the 2 gigs.
22:11	AWizzArd	maybe Rich was talking about hash tables then, where he implemented this magic stuff
22:11	arohner	PersistentList(IPersistentMap meta, Object _first, IPersistentList _rest, int _count){
22:11	arohner	super(meta);
22:11	arohner	this._first = _first;
22:11	arohner	this._rest = _rest;
22:11	arohner	this._count = _count;
22:11	arohner	}
22:11	Chouser	no, consing 1 byte on the front copies nothing. Trying to add something on the tail would require a full copy.
22:11	AWizzArd	Chouser: yes, that's what I meant
22:12	Chouser	AWizzArd: oh, sorry, I get head/tail mixed up pretty often.
22:12	Chouser	So yes, if you want to cons one thing on the right-hand side, use a PersistentVector, where there's magic to keep it cheap.
22:12	AWizzArd	from this video it sounded as if he can add stuff to a map (= hash table) and need not to copy it if other vars have a reference to it
22:12	duck1123	what if you do something with lazy-cons, would that avoid making copies?
22:13	duck1123	or is that all the same if you're putting it on the end
22:13	AWizzArd	And he was talking about having no cons cells anymore. So I thought lists are implemented in some other datastructure that will not always need to be copied.
22:14	arohner	I think that meant that the "cons interface" is abstracted away
22:14	Chouser	duck1123: no, you're onto something there. lazy-cat for example.
22:14	arohner	as a user, you deal with lists, vectors etc, not cons cells
22:15	AWizzArd	right
22:15	AWizzArd	he probably just meant this abstract thinking about what lists are
22:15	Chouser	lists are cheap to add to one end, vector to add to the other.
22:15	arohner	and as we pointed out earlier, when you use lists efficiently, they don't have to always be copied
22:15	AWizzArd	from the posted code it looks though that it just is a linked list
22:15	Chouser	vectors allow "changes" anywhere in the middle, as do maps.
22:16	AWizzArd	Chouser: but how can that be done without copying?
22:16	Chouser	AWizzArd: for vectors and hash-maps?
22:16	AWizzArd	for vectors
22:17	AWizzArd	adding something anywhere would need a fresh copy
22:17	AWizzArd	of the full vector, no?
22:17	Chouser	vectors are not linked lists, they're a sort of tree, and when you make a "change", only a single path thru the tree needs to be copied, so much cheaper than copying the whole thing.
22:18	AWizzArd	okay, so not one-dimensional arrays?
22:18	Chouser	no, they're clever, magic little critters, not an array.
22:18	AWizzArd	this of course costs more for accessing elements
22:19	Chouser	yes, but still practically constant time
22:19	AWizzArd	So we have no arrays in Clojure?
22:19	Chouser	you can access Java arrays if you really want to.
22:19	AWizzArd	and those are "real arrays" then I guess?
22:19	AWizzArd	Or has sun also banned them? ;-)
22:20	Chouser	yep. mutable, fixed length (I think), constant-time read and write, Arrays.
22:21	AWizzArd	Back in the 80ies we did not have all this stylish tree stuff on the C64. Plain arrays were cutting edge.
22:21	Chouser	:-)
22:21	AWizzArd	what kind of tree is it that Clojure uses under the hood for vectors?
22:22	Chouser	vectors and hashes have a similar implementation. There are a couple screencasts on "data structures" that I think contain some details.
22:23	Chouser	watch those and read the code, and you'll be all set.
22:23	AWizzArd	okay, that was the video I didn't see so far
22:23	Chouser	Porting them to another language is optional, but very helpful.
22:23	Chouser	:-)
22:23	AWizzArd	long discussion, and I am all the time talking about lists with usually +/- 5 elements g
22:24	AWizzArd	I should not care much if I have to reverse it or add to the end
22:24	Chouser	:-) yep. Vectors of < 32 elements just copy the whole thing on any change.
22:24	Chouser	nice fast blit, I would assume.
22:25	Chouser	don't use reverse though, just use a vector. they work great.
22:25	AWizzArd	I need a list at the end - it's code that I generate
22:26	Chouser	a seq over the vector's not good enough?
22:27	AWizzArd	But is it not the same to reverse a list vs reverse a vector and then seq it?
22:29	Chouser	since conj'ing onto a vector puts things in the opposite order, you probably won't need to reverse it at all.
22:30	Chouser	the seq on it still walks the right direction though.
22:31	Chouser	(reverse (apply conj '() (range 5)))
22:31	Chouser	(seq (apply conj [] (range 5)))
22:32	Chouser	both produce (0 1 2 3 4), but the first creates a list and then copies tho whole thing (via reverse)
22:32	AWizzArd	in principle seq and reverse should have +/- the same efficiency... we need to run through the whole collection anyway
22:33	AWizzArd	(into [] (range 5))
22:33	Chouser	reverse keeps the whole copy in memory, seq does not.
22:34	Chouser	when you're talking about 5 or 10 items, the efficiency differences don't matter much. But using list and reverse is not idiomatic when vector would work.
22:35	AWizzArd	although consing up a list should be more efficient in general than inserting into a tree
22:36	AWizzArd	otherwise we could do everything with a vector and always seq it in the end, if we really need a list
22:38	AWizzArd	and one thing that sounds really strange is this: http://clojure.org/data_structures#toc53
22:39	AWizzArd	"nth also works for Java arrays, and, in O(n) time, for sequences."
22:39	AWizzArd	nevermind, I misread that sigh
22:47	rukubites	Somewhere above you guys implied that you can't compile clojure to .class files. I thought Clojure was further along than that. :-(
22:49	Chouser	why do you want .class files?
22:50	arohner	rukubites: rhickey is currently working on compiling to .class files
22:50	AWizzArd	you should ask yourself if you really need .class files in the coming few months... if this is critical then Clojure is not yet for you
22:51	AWizzArd	but if you think that your life does not depend on it, then you shouldn't worry, as this will come
22:52	rukubites	Chouser: so I can write in Clojure and users of my software don't care that the source code is clojure.
22:53	rukubites	I actually did some reasonably major work with ABCL to try to get something like that happening.
22:53	Chouser	they have no need to care. You can put everything you need into a .jar and deploy it.
22:53	rukubites	Libraries...
22:53	Chouser	you mean to provide a library, or to use one?
22:53	rukubites	Provide, of course.
22:54	Chouser	you can use gen-class to provide a .class file that turns around and calls clojure fns for all methods (and constructor, etc.)
22:56	rukubites	I guess that may well be good enough. I guess the same issue exists with Common Lisp, the only flavour that can compile down to a .so/.dll library is theoretically ECL.
22:57	Chouser	rhickey has already demonstrated producing .class files is possible, but he's still working out all the details. It'll come, and gen-class features will probably be rolled into it.
22:58	rukubites	Chouser, that does sound cool. :-)
23:00	Chouser	one of the nice things about gen-class (compared to regular java) is that you get clojure features on your class -- swap out method implementations at runtime and transaction aware object state changes.
23:15	AWizzArd	Chouser: woohoo, I have currying ready :-)
23:35	sohail	AWizzArd, you there?
23:35	AWizzArd	yes
23:35	sohail	ok so I saw the discussion
23:35	sohail	about :Shape + struct
23:36	AWizzArd	this discussion that followed was mostly for this other guy, as he didn't understand the difference between maps and structure maps
23:36	sohail	I see
23:36	AWizzArd	But is this example as it is written on the website 100% clear?
23:37	sohail	yes definitely
23:37	sohail	I was just trying to map the example to CLOS
23:37	sohail	but it seems the two don't quite map
23:37	sohail	which is unfortunate
23:38	AWizzArd	let's see
23:38	AWizzArd	I think you can do it very much the same in clos
23:39	rukubites	I have a question that might be meaningless, but I'll give it a shot: Why make a distinction between let and with-local-vars?
23:40	AWizzArd	rukubites: Add (binding ...) to the discussion as well :-)
23:40	sohail	well for CLOS, I would have done (defclass shape ()) (defclass rectangle (shape) (<slot-defns>)) (defmethod area ((r rectangle)) ... )
23:40	AWizzArd	sohail: looks good
23:40	sohail	and then (make-instance 'rectangle :width w :height h)
23:40	rukubites	No I understand binding, I think. binding locally sets what in CL would be a special variable.
23:41	sohail	but for clojure, seems I gotta do the equivalent of (make-instance 'rectangle :width w :height h :metaclass (find-class 'rectangle)) (I made up everything after :height)
23:41	AWizzArd	rukubites: what is the difference between let and binding? Replace binding in this example with let: http://clojure.org/vars#toc1
23:41	walters	let is lexical, binding is dynamic
23:41	rukubites	I wasn't asking about binding...
23:42	rukubites	I was asking about with-local-vars.
23:42	rukubites	Is it that let interns variables?
23:42	AWizzArd	rukubites: but _I_ am asking about binding
23:42	sohail	just seems to me that clojure doesn't exactly have an object system
23:42	sohail	which is fine, I just need to get used to it
23:42	AWizzArd	sohail: that's correct. No OOP - it's a lucky day!
23:42	rukubites	AWizzArd: Wow you hijacked my question nicely then:
23:42	AWizzArd	;-)
23:43	sohail	it's lucky as long as I don't write more or make code more buggy, but in this case, it seems I do
23:43	sohail	I think clojure will eventually end up having an object system layered over it
23:44	AWizzArd	sohail: you can build an object system anytime yourself..
23:44	AWizzArd	you could implement clos in Clojure if you wanted
23:44	sohail	AWizzArd, ya... except it'll be slow as hell!
23:44	AWizzArd	I just see nothing which would be made easier by having an object system
23:44	AWizzArd	we want to go away from that (oop that is)
23:46	AWizzArd	walters: so if I shadow bindings with let then those variables will not change globally for the thread in which the let is running in, but with binding this would be the case?
23:46	sohail	AWizzArd, maybe
23:46	sohail	I just don't see how making the usage of multiple-dispatch MORE buggy helps though
23:46	arbscht	I've missed CLOS little in the time I've used clojure, but I don't try to write CL in clojure
23:46	sohail	arbscht, that's what I was looking for
23:47	rukubites	CLOS can be quite evil. People tend to use it when they should be using generic tools and passed functions.
23:48	AWizzArd	sohail: in what aspect did Clojure make the use of multiple dispatch more buggy?
23:48	rukubites	I prefer polymorphism by passing functions as parameters.
23:48	sohail	AWizzArd, the example I gave earlier
23:48	sohail	someone could just do {:Shape :Circle :width w :height w}
23:48	sohail	it doesn't help that clojure says nothing
23:48	rukubites	The above is a map?
23:48	AWizzArd	yes
23:48	sohail	that's the multiple dispatch example, yeah
23:49	AWizzArd	but what is the problem with it?
23:49	sohail	a circle doesn't have a width and a height?
23:49	rukubites	Yes it does
23:49	sohail	uh.
23:49	sohail	what?
23:50	sohail	in the example it sure didn't
23:50	arbscht	not if it's defined otherwise, say by radius. that's an arbitrary coincidence
23:50	arbscht	right
23:50	sohail	yeah I mean seriously, talk about missing the forest
23:50	rukubites	SOrry, I was talking about circles, not the example. n/m.
23:51	AWizzArd	sohail: so you complain that someone could just build up his own map, without using the constructor functions provided and then call circle methods for things that are not really circles?
23:51	sohail	and iirc, an ellipse is defined using eccentricity
23:51	sohail	AWizzArd, pretty much, yeah
23:51	AWizzArd	this would give a run time error but could in principle be caught by the compiler
23:51	sohail	not really complaining, but pointing out
23:52	arbscht	how can the compiler be sure? generalized multimethods don't just dispatch on 'type'
23:52	AWizzArd	well, sohail knew it
23:53	AWizzArd	so there exists a way to reason about code and come to this conclusion.. a compiler could in principle do anything a human can also know about code
23:53	sohail	arbscht, I guess what I am saying is totally separate from multi methods
23:53	sohail	i.e., I still have to get used to it ;-)
23:54	sohail	I mean to be honest, I use dictionaries quite liberally in Python but I find it quite annoying if it is done all over the place.
23:55	AWizzArd	sohail: you complain that there exists ways to cause runtime errors
23:55	AWizzArd	this is well possible in Clojure, CL and Python
23:55	sohail	I point out that it doesn't need to be so seat-of-your-pants!
23:55	rukubites	I think that if objects are really just maps with no higher-level structures, they will be open to abuse. But this is (a) lisp, not a baby language.
23:56	AWizzArd	have fun
23:56	sohail	I'm kidding
23:56	sohail	geez
23:56	rukubites	:-D
23:56	arbscht	I'm not convinced that encoding rules around your objects in functions is necessarily more prone to bugs
23:56	AWizzArd	well, it's a legitimit descision to not code in Clojure
23:57	sohail	all you need is some real smug weenies in here and your transformation to a lisp is complete
23:57	sohail	(again, kidding)
23:57	sohail	arbscht, you mean less prone?
23:57	sohail	or do you mean manually doing it in every function that manipulates said objects?
23:57	sohail	s/manipulates/uses/
23:57	arbscht	sohail: no, more prone. (defn rect ..) versus default values in CL-style struct
23:58	rukubites	heh a colleague of mine runs the blog smug lisp weenie.
23:58	sohail	rukubites, tilton?
23:58	AWizzArd	is (format ..) the best way to make a string out of a symbol?
23:58	rukubites	Yep
23:58	sohail	arbscht, sure, but that is how CL started isn't it
23:59	sohail	i.e., defstruct generated a bunch of functions
23:59	sohail	then people were like, "wtf this is silly" -> CLOS