#clojure – 2008-10-05

2008-10-05

01:08	duck1123	how hard would it be to modify the documentation system to include a direct link to the actual source code
01:09	duck1123	even better, it could use javascript or something to color code, and display inline
02:12	danlarkin	duck1123: that would be neat
05:02	Pupeno1	lisppaste8: url
05:02	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
05:02	lisppaste8	Pupeno pasted "synthetize" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67955
05:03	Pupeno1	Is there a better way to write that code? 5 lines of code and 2 are almost the same.
05:05	Hun	you could use pg's old aif-macro. that makes it at least a bit shorter
05:05	Hun	what does synthesize-content return? if it's just nil, what goes wrong when nil is used for :content?
05:12	Hun	hmm... intentional variable capture seems to be hard in clojure
05:13	lisppaste8	Hun pasted "Nonworking aif for clojure" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67956
05:23	lisppaste8	H4ns annotated #67955 with "dry" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67955#1
05:26	hans_	dang. Pupeno1, seen my paste annotation?
05:27	Hun	i saw it
05:27	lisppaste8	hoeck annotated #67955 with "into" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67955#2
05:28	H4ns	hoeck: also nice
05:29	hoeck	H4ns: more general, allows applying more "optional" keys
05:30	H4ns	hoeck: that is true. also, less visual clutter
05:30	Hun	hmm... is intentional variable capture just hard in clojure or doesn't work at all?
05:31	hoeck	H4ns: but the conj approach suits better when there will be only one optional entry
05:31	hoeck	Hun: its possible, use ~'foo in your macro
05:34	lisppaste8	heock annotated #67955 with "conj" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67955#3
05:36	H4ns	hoeck: you don't like [], {} for a reason?
05:37	H4ns	never mind me.
05:48	Pupeno1	Thanks for the annotations.
05:49	Pupeno1	The reason why I'm avoiding having content when it's nil is because I need to see the data and understand it, and having a content nil there makes it harder to read and understand the data.
06:04	lisppaste8	H4ns pasted "Trivial HTTP server" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67958
06:04	H4ns	wow. having mastered the initial hurdles, using java libraries from clojure really is straightforward
06:25	Pupeno1	I really need a pretty print, isn't there one anywhere?
06:29	gs	does this help: http://blog.thinkrelevance.com/2008/9/16/pcl-clojure-chapter-3
06:30	gs	if you scroll down a bit he uses the 'format' function to print the output
06:30	Pupeno1	gs: might do.
07:34	pmf	Is there a significant difference between (.method obj args) notation and (. obj (method args)) notation? I'm asking because I'm using a custom variant of doto that works not only on Java-methods, but also on regular (i.e. Clojure) functions that take an obj a first arg, allowing to do (doto-2 obj (.someMember args) (pr) (.someOther)).
08:09	glark	(defn $ [pred]
08:09	glark	`(lambda (x) (,(first pred) x ,(first (rest pred)))))
08:09	glark	why isnt that working? it works in common lisp
08:09	glark	should expand ($ '(< 10)) to (lambda (x)(< x 10))
08:10	glark	obv not needed in clojure bc fn is short
08:10	glark	but i am oractiticng ninjaskills
08:10	H4ns	comma is white space in clojure, use ~ instead
08:12	H4ns	oh, and yes, lambda is fn in clojure. are you sure that you've read enough of the introductory material? :)
08:18	rhickey	glark: the ninja way would be #(< % 10)
08:21	Hun	real ninja is (rcurry < 10) :)
08:22	glark	ok thanks
08:22	glark	(defn $ [pred]
08:22	glark	`(lambda (x) (~(first pred) x ~(first (rest pred)))))
08:22	glark	doesnt work either. for soem reason it puts user in there...
08:22	glark	(user/lambda (user/x) (< user/x 10))
08:22	glark	when doing ($ '(< 10))
08:23	H4ns	glark: lambda does not exist in clojure
08:23	glark	lol im stupid haha
08:24	glark	(defn $ [pred]
08:24	glark	`(fn [x] (~(first pred) x ~(first (rest pred)))))
08:24	glark	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
08:29	glark	(defn $ [pred]
08:29	glark	`(fn (~[(first pred)] x ~(first (rest pred)))))
08:30	H4ns	lisppaste8: url
08:30	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
08:30	H4ns	glark: use that for code pastes
08:31	rhickey	Hun: I disagree - curry is not very ninja at all - can only bind args in order - rcurry is a great example of its limitations
08:32	Hun	when the functions are uncurried variadic, one can implement rcurry pretty easy... though it's ugly
08:33	rhickey	Hun: and binding the middle arg of three?
08:33	Hun	got me there :)
08:34	rhickey	#(foo %1 42 %2)
08:35	Hun	one could do a nasty hack and implement an ncurry, but that's even uglier than rcurry
08:35	rhickey	Hun: then I'd say what about first and third of four?
08:36	Hun	would work with ncurry twice. it'd create a lambda with & args and splice them around the call
08:37	rhickey	more proof
08:37	Hun	but your solution is nicer
08:40	fondue	hm, shouldn't this return false? (def a 1) (def b 1) (identical? a b)
08:40	lisppaste8	rhickey annotated #67956 with "aif" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67956#1
08:41	rhickey	Hun: aif that works ^
08:42	rhickey	Clojure tries to help with aliasing, so you need to explicit cause 'it to escape
08:42	Hun	ok
08:44	rhickey	but anaphora are discouraged in Clojure, they don't nest
08:44	Hun	maybe i should stop thinking CL when writing clojure :)
08:45	rhickey	fondue: while they are not guaranteed to be identical?, they're not prohibited either
08:45	rhickey	identical? also use very infrequently in Clojure
08:45	rhickey	used
08:47	fondue	ok, was just following the data structures screencast and typing things into my own repl for kicks, you seemed to get (identical? "foo" "foo") to turn up as false too, I got true
08:47	fondue	but I'll just ignore it :)
08:48	Hun	equality is generally a hard problem
08:48	rhickey	fondue: for strings the rules have changed since the screencast and identical? is guaranteed for string literals
08:49	fondue	right
08:49	rhickey	identical? is not about equality
08:49	Hun	true
08:50	rhickey	= in Clojure has sound semantics, at least when applied to Clojure objects and immutable Java ones
08:51	rhickey	= pretty much implements egal, per Heny Baker: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html
08:53	Hun	cool. didn't know that paper yet. => reading
08:53	H4ns	in german, "egal" means "does not matter" which is slightly confusing :)
08:54	rhickey	H4ns: interesting
08:54	fondue	yes, I was enjoying =, I just thought it was odd that identical? didn't point out that they were different objects, which seemed to be its main purpose
08:54	fondue	as a side note, that is probably the best answer I have ever gotten in proportion to how basic the question was
08:55	rhickey	fondue: but it does do exactly that, but the language doesn't say that two 1's that occur in different places will be different objects
08:55	fondue	so it's employing a bit of cleverness and using the same object, since they're immutable anyway? they're both pointing to the secret 1-object?
08:55	rhickey	right
08:56	rhickey	but not guaranteed
08:56	fondue	right
08:57	H4ns	rhickey: a class name in a new expression can't be computed, right? i tried (new (if <expr> <some-class-name> <another-class-name>) ...)
08:57	rhickey	had an interesting look at the cost of that optimization during the JVM summit - bottom line is that with proper escape analysis it might be better to allocate a new boxed 1 every time, sinc ethe test and cache lookup complicate the fast path
08:58	rhickey	H4ns: right, Clojure is designed to be compiled - you can get runtime behavior by using reflection explicitly - see also clojure.lang.Reflector for useful reflection helpers like invokeConstructor()
09:00	rhickey	but better in your case (if expr (This. ... ) (That. ...))
09:01	H4ns	rhickey: thanks, will look at that. coming from clos, i have a hard time coming back to a static object system.
09:01	fondue	an interesting optimization that, exactly the kind of emergent cleverness this new (to me) way of thinking seems to encourage
09:11	rhickey	H4ns: understood, although that dynamism is infrequently used. In any case, it is generally more useful, if someone is going to hand you something to create, for them to hand you a constructor-fn than a class name/object - like #(java.util.ArrayList. %&) - that way your code isn't hardwired to new, and the resulting call is fast - no reflection
09:14	glark	rich: what is your opinion aout haskell and python?
09:14	glark	is it possible to create an objectsystem in clojure btw?
09:15	rhickey	glark: haskell is inspiring, python just ordinary, but serves its users
09:16	rhickey	glark: hopefully some next-generation object system
09:16	prunedtree	rhickey : is there a way to iterate in clojure that isn't ridiculously slow that I missed ?
09:17	prunedtree	(or ridiculously low level like loop)
09:17	rhickey	doseq dotimes
09:17	prunedtree	are ridiculously slow. slower than interpreted languages
09:18	prunedtree	(well, probably faster than ruby/python/etc... but slower than, say, Lua for instance)
09:19	rhickey	the things you've been doing have been highly imperative - if you find loop too low level build higher level things with macros
09:19	prunedtree	and 100x slower than some JITs. I think it's the whole lasy sequence thing
09:20	prunedtree	it's great on paper but disastrous on the JVM. no lamba lifting, no strictness analysis. feels like haskell without GHC magic :/
09:21	H4ns	rhickey: the library i am using tries to be friendly by supplying a lot of tiny wrapper classes around base class functionality. i'll just use the base classes and provide a convenient functional wrapper around that. i'm very willing to not use classes and inheritance in my clojure programs.
09:21	H4ns	but now for some family business. enough progress for today.
09:24	glark	(defn $ [pred] `(fn [x] (~(first pred) x ~(first (rest pred)))))
09:25	glark	what am i missing?
09:29	Hun	you're defining a function that looks like a macro?
09:29	rhickey	glark: are you trying to write a macro?
09:31	glark	it works as a defun in commmon lisp
09:31	glark	(defun $ (pred)
09:31	glark	`(lambda (x) (,(car pred) x ,(car (cdr pred)))))
09:31	glark	just an exercise
09:31	glark	pointless kind of but...
09:34	Hun	in CL that would also just return a list
09:35	rhickey	is your problem the qualified user/x - you should be using auto-gensyms:
09:35	rhickey	(defn $ [pred] `(fn [x#] (~(first pred) x# ~(first (rest pred)))))
09:35	rhickey	($ '(< 10)) -> (clojure/fn [x__2553] (< x__2553 10))
09:36	rhickey	Clojure ` is not a hygiene free-for-all like CL
09:36	rhickey	:)
09:41	glark	ok thanks
09:41	glark	still get java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
09:41	glark	though
09:43	rhickey	glark: when you are trying to use the result? That's because it's just a list of forms - unless you write a macro or eval it it's not going to turn into code
09:43	Hun	are you trying to call that directly?
09:43	Hun	you get a (non-evalled) sequence back
09:48	glark	(defmacro $ [pred] `(fn [x#] (~(first pred) x# ~(first (rest pred)))))
09:49	glark	now it does hwt i wanted but when i wrote in cl i thought it has to be a macro but then i could do it so i assumed it wuld work inclojure too
09:49	rhickey	glark: please paste complete working CL
09:50	alec	Are the slides from the boston talk available in non-movie form? I don't see them on the website or in the files area of the Google group
09:50	rhickey	alec: good point, I'll put them up, just a sec...
09:52	rhickey	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/web/clojureforlispers.pdf
09:54	alec	thanks!
09:55	rhickey	alec: sure, although slides alone don't substitute for the talk (but should take less than 3 hours to read :)
09:57	glark	http://hpaste.org/10917
10:01	glark	rhickey ^^^
10:01	alec	glark: are you trying to recreate haskell's associativity-changing operator, and if so, why do that in a language that doesn't do infix?
10:02	glark	wait it is not working when used with filter
10:02	glark	no it wa sjus syntactic sugar for (lambda (x)(< x y))
10:02	glark	not really needed since clojrue has its own
10:03	glark	but dont see how the clojure-system works
10:04	glark	(clojure/fn [x__1837] (< x__1837 10)) is what i get
10:04	glark	when using defn, i watn a list, data as code...
10:07	Hun	are you confusing Common Lisp with Emacs Lisp? this is the only still alive lisp i know where this works
10:08	glark	ys emacslips +re clrequ
10:08	glark	+ require 'cl
10:10	Hun	that's an ugliness of elisp that you can funcall a list there imho
10:10	Hun	everywhere else you need a macro or an eval between
10:12	glark	ok but it is still not working here
10:12	glark	user=> (filter ($ '(< 10)) '(12 3 4 55))
10:12	glark	(12 3 4 55)
10:14	Hun	same happens with my implementation, too
10:14	Hun	(defn $ [pred]
10:14	Hun	#((nth pred 0) % (nth pred 1)))
10:14	Hun	i don't understand that one
10:14	Chouser	glark: what does (macroexpand '($ '(< 10)))
10:14	Chouser	er, what does that return?
10:16	Chouser	(filter ($ (< 10)) '(12 3 4 55)) seems to work
10:16	Hun	hmm
10:17	Hun	it works when i do a (list < 10) instead of a '(< 10)
10:17	Hun	(filter ($ '(< 10)) '(12 3 4 55)) => (12 3 4 55)
10:17	Hun	(filter ($ (list < 10)) '(12 3 4 55)) => (3 4)
10:18	Chouser	running macroexpand on those is enlightening
10:18	Hun	i have no macro in there, just a defn and a fn
10:18	Chouser	oh
10:19	Hun	ah
10:19	Chouser	oh, I see. I was looking at glark's macro implementation
10:19	Hun	list evaluates the < to clojure._LT___
10:19	Hun	the quote doesn't and includes a plain <
10:19	Hun	which somehow can get called though
10:20	Hun	('< 3) => nil
10:21	Hun	('< 3 5) => 5
10:21	Hun	with more it throws an exception
10:21	rhickey	glark: so, the code you've posted won't work in CL, as someone said auto-eval of lists may be an emacs lisp thing
10:22	rhickey	so, this must be a macro - you want to manipulate code as data, then have the compiler continue to evaluate it
10:23	Hun	rhickey: what does happen back there? i seem to call a symbol and it works... can't find anything about that
10:24	rhickey	symbols, like keywords, are functions of associative things, like maps
10:25	rhickey	('a {'a 1 'b 2}) -> 1
10:27	Chouser	and apparently (get 3 5) simply returns nil
10:27	rhickey	when 'called' on something non-associative, return nil - found nothing
10:27	Hun	ok. but i don't understand what it's doing to those numbers a few lines up. with 2 args it seems to return the second one
10:27	rhickey	Chouser: no (get '< 3) returns nil
10:28	rhickey	sorry (get 3 '<)
10:28	Chouser	the third param then is the notFound value
10:28	rhickey	right, the second case is the default value case
10:28	rhickey	if you can't find '< in 3, return 5
10:29	Hun	ah, now i get it. i would have expected it to complain that 3 is not a collection
10:31	rhickey	Hun: others expected nil and won, apparenty :)
10:31	rhickey	apparently
10:31	Hun	hehe
10:32	rhickey	iirc that behavior was useful in destructuring at least
10:33	Chouser	so that's a completely different problem from glark's, where by quoting the arg '(< 10), first and (first (rest...)) were operating on (quote (< 10)) instead of (< 10)
10:34	Hun	it then always returns the second arg (the number 10) which is always true
10:34	Hun	and therefore filter returns the original seq
10:34	rhickey	Chouser: yes, there's lot of confusion here solved by using macros - the right tool for this job
10:36	Chouser	well glark's was a macro (in the end) but I guess the idea of quoting the arg was left over from when the implementation was a fn
10:38	glark	well its still not working damn. thanks fo the tips though.
10:38	Chouser	glark: works for me
10:40	glark	chouser: which one and how do you call it?
10:41	lisppaste8	Chouser pasted "glark's macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67975
10:42	glark	ah v nice
10:43	rhickey	don't ignore his "or of course the easiest:" at the bottom, that is the Clojure way to do this
10:45	Chouser	I hardly ever get to write macros in clojure -- there's almost always already an easier way to do it.
10:48	glark	ty very much all
10:48	glark	im mostly in this to learn more about macros and stm
10:48	glark	gonna port ,y spamfilter to clojure now as an exercise
10:58	glark	how do i do progn in clojure?
10:59	Chouser	(do ...)
11:00	Chouser	If I remember progn correctly. ;-)
11:08	Hun	yep
11:15	blackdog	hi Chouser how is clojurescript? I tried to tweak it a little, (prn (+ 1 2 3 4)) -> 8 :p, i added a clojure.lang.Numbers.add,
11:15	blackdog	(+ 1 2) gives the correct answer
11:16	blackdog	does that mean an issue in the PersistentList reduce?
11:20	Chouser	blackdog: yeah, I just noticed yesterday that add and minus were missing.
11:21	Chouser	hm! not sure.
11:21	Chouser	I'd have to look at the JS produced, but mine is all broken at the moment.
11:21	blackdog	ok, i used svn from yesterday,
11:22	blackdog	anyway, it looks really interesting and i understand basically waht's going on, so i'll try a little hacking on it
11:22	Chouser	blackdog: cool.
11:23	Chouser	As you noticed, there several bits of runtime support missing, and the parts that are there are not well tested.
11:23	Chouser	I think the JS-emitting part is pretty solid, though we may be able to make performance and size improvements.
11:25	blackdog	yegge's js2.el is complaining about lack of ; in the bodies of most of the output
11:25	blackdog	not too important i guess
11:26	blackdog	maybe for compression tools it is though
11:31	Chouser	hm, I wonder if the
11:31	Chouser	hm, I wonder if the \n interspersed with , is a bad idea
11:32	Chouser	like, it could be interpreted as end-of-statement
11:46	StartsWithK	Chouser: Will you provide any way to extract parts of boot.js that are needed by clojurescripts?
11:50	blackdog	i think that's ultimately important, it's one of GWTs selling points
11:50	blackdog	removing unused methods, classes
11:53	Chouser	I've been hoping I could get all of boot.js and clj.js compacted and gzipped down to around 20KB or so.
11:53	blackdog	that would be amazing,
11:55	Chouser	I'm currently at about 25KB, but that's without compacting clj.js at all, or using short names in boot.js
11:56	Chouser	of course clj.js is also missing entire classes, so we'll see.
11:56	blackdog	50K in total for runtime and boot will make it very competitive
11:57	StartsWithK	don't forget most of us will use something like jquery with clojurescript
11:57	StartsWithK	so, total size i my opinion should be mesured when packed with jquery
11:57	StartsWithK	but this will be awesome when finished :)
11:58	Chouser	jQuery's what, 9KB or so?
11:58	blackdog	19K
11:58	blackdog	i think compressed
11:59	Chouser	I've already got code in tojs to skip some parts of boot.clj (agents, etc.) so exposing that functionality somehow isn't out of the question, though it's complexity I'd rather avoid if possible.
12:00	StartsWithK	anyone got proguard (http://proguard.sourceforge.net/) to work with clojure?
12:00	StartsWithK	that would reduce applet sizes too
12:01	StartsWithK	when aot clojure->java that should work just fine i think
12:01	StartsWithK	is finished*
13:22	Chouser	blackdog: The bug turned out to be in ArraySeq.reduce -- fixed, thanks!
13:22	blackdog	cool thanks
13:22	blackdog	is it on svn?
13:35	StartsWithK	how can i dispatch on interface?
13:39	blackdog	maybe use bases or supers in the dispatch function for your multimethod?
13:39	StartsWithK	i can do (supers obj), and ill get set, but then i will have to dispatch for exact combination of interfaces
13:41	rhickey	StartsWithK: just use class as your dispatch function and the interface as the dispatch value
13:42	Chouser	blackdog: yes, it's in svn.
13:46	StartsWithK	thanks
13:54	StartsWithK	and how could i dispatch on method signature? like in scala i can say type HasEventListener = { def addEventListener(e: Event) } and then i can write
13:55	StartsWithK	implicit def ext(o: HasEventListener) = { do_something() }
13:55	StartsWithK	i should use reflection for something like that?
14:10	rhickey	StartsWithK: you mean dispatch based on the presence of a method in the target? why would you do that?
14:20	StartsWithK	rhickey: swing has bunch of addXXXListener methods, but they are bund to some interface, in swt you have addSelectionListener(SelectionListener l) defined on multiple classes with same behavior but they don't share common base class or interface
14:21	rhickey	but that is not a dispatch issue - you can call (.addSelectionLister x ...) on any x that supports that method
14:23	StartsWithK	i have this new (doto) that can also use (defmulti patch) multimethod to 'add' new methods to some class
14:24	StartsWithK	now i dispatch inside patch based on class, but i would like to restrict that to classes that have some base class and methods with eact signature
14:26	StartsWithK	same thing is inside jetty, there is a lot of classes that have void addHandler(Handler h), they all do the same, but there is no common interface
14:30	rhickey	but you really have code that needs to say, if this thing supports handlers add one?
14:33	StartsWithK	http://pastebin.com/m5ea79f29 there is no addHandlerCollection method in jetty, i dispatch on base Handler class to inject this method, but that is wrong, not all Handler subclasses have addHandler
14:34	StartsWithK	ups, there is no addHandlerList method
14:41	rhickey	StartsWithK: you are making up your own language there, injecting methods etc. The simple answer is to determine whether or not a class supports a method you'll have to use reflection. If you know the set of classes without a common base interface you'd like to group together, you can use the new ad-hoc hierarchy support:
14:41	rhickey	(derive SomeHandler ::SupportsAddHandler) etc
14:43	rhickey	this allows you to superimpose a parent, which you can use in dispatch, and while it requires enumeration of the relationships, it's not duck typed like the Scala - you make a concrete decision
14:44	Chouser	on the other hand, having creating a dispatch function that does the reflection to do duck typing wouldn't be that hard.
14:44	Chouser	s/having//
14:45	StartsWithK	rhickey: do you consider it a bad sytle, this extended doto macro? It is 100% compatible with clojure/doto
14:46	StartsWithK	Chouser: like when multimethod is dispatched i could check with reflection for existance of method and create new (derive) on the spot, that could work
14:46	rhickey	StartsWithK: yes, because I can't understand your program anymore - I'd expect to find any called methods in the Javadoc for the classes
14:48	rhickey	this isn't really dispatch at all, it's just a predicate - hasThisProperty/method
14:49	rhickey	the advantages of encoding as hierarchy are - non-duck, non-reflective
14:49	StartsWithK	yes, that could be a problem, i hope that at the end i will add something that will auto-generate documentation of patched (or shadowed) methods
14:50	rhickey	StartsWithK: why not call it something else my-doto
14:51	StartsWithK	no problem there, i used it only in larger composition, like gui creation, so maybe (build) could work
15:25	Chouser	we definitely need a sane way of prividing and maintaining "see also"s in function docs
16:01	blackdog	Chouser: if I want to reference JQuery from a cljs or any JS global, what's the magic? it seems to be trying to resolve in my namespace
16:02	Chouser	it's ok for it to generate a resolveVar to get to a JS global
16:03	blackdog	sorry, don't understand how to get the global, this is what i have (.html JQuery "#nice" "woot")
16:04	blackdog	ah
16:05	blackdog	clojure.JS.global?
16:05	blackdog	l.JQuery?
16:05	blackdog	oops
16:06	blackdog	clojure.JS.global.JQuery
16:06	blackdog	nope, nevermind :P
16:09	Chouser	(.html JQuery "#nice" "woot") should work -- is it not?
16:09	blackdog	i'm not getting nice filled with woot on my page, but maybe there's something daft
16:10	Chouser	what JS is being generated?
16:10	blackdog	oh it may be that I'm not calling it in the ready function
16:10	blackdog	of jquery, so maybe the document hasn't been initalised properly
16:10	blackdog	(function __ritchie_fn_2653(){
16:10	blackdog	return ((clojure.JS.resolveVar("JQuery",ritchie)).html("woot"))}).apply(null,[]);
16:10	blackdog
16:11	Chouser	ok, I think that ought to work. The resolveVar should find window.JQeury at runtime, do JQuery.html("woot")
16:12	blackdog	what in FF ?
16:12	blackdog	in firebig?
16:12	blackdog	bug, doh
16:14	Chouser	well, yeah you should be able to paste into firebug what you pasted here, and it should happen.
16:14	blackdog	i think it's me using query wrongly actually
16:14	Chouser	ok. I don't know anything about JQuery. :-)
16:17	blackdog	wait, if I do this (.html JQuery "#nice" "woot"), then I want it to translate to JQuery("#nice").html("woot")
16:17	Chouser	oh!
16:18	blackdog	and it's dropping the "nice" i think
16:18	blackdog	no it's not
16:18	blackdog	ok this is what i have now
16:18	Chouser	well, you'd have to write that (.html (JQuery "#nice") "woot") or something.
16:18	blackdog	clojure.JS.resolveVar("JQuery",ritchie)).html("#nice","woot"))
16:19	blackdog	ah ok, it's my clojire :)
16:19	Chouser	well, except cljs isn't going to bahave well on (JQuery "#nice").
16:19	Chouser	oh, maybe it will!
16:20	blackdog	clojure.JS.resolveVar("JQuery",ritchie).apply(null,["#nice"])).html("woot")
16:20	Chouser	yeah, give that a try.
16:20	blackdog	but i still don't see anything, which still may be down to the document not initialised
16:23	Chouser	well, you can try hand-written JS in whatever context you're trying to do generate .js now.
16:24	Chouser	Once you've got that working, swap in the generated JS and get back to me. :-)
16:24	blackdog	yep
16:38	blackdog	my mistake, JQuery, should have been jQuery
16:38	blackdog	getting some output now
16:40	Chouser	ah, good.
16:43	Chouser	I freely admit there's plenty of work to go on getting all this to tie in nicely.
16:43	blackdog	ok, next question if I want to call into namespace "test" and function setText from javascript how do i do it?
16:45	Chouser	you say namespace, so I assume setText is defined in a .clj or .cljs file somewhere?
16:45	blackdog	yes, (ns test)
16:45	blackdog
16:45	blackdog	(defn setText [t]
16:45	blackdog	(.html (JQuery "#nice") t))
16:46	blackdog	but i'll need to call clojure functions from jquery events
16:46	Chouser	well, this is the tie-in stuff that's not too pretty yet. You have to make sure that code is compiled to .js and that the .js is loaded into the browser page.
16:46	blackdog	yes, I've done that
16:47	blackdog	it's working in the browser
16:47	Chouser	oh, ok. Then you can call it from JS like test.setText(t)
16:47	blackdog	that easy! awsome, i see there's a getMappings() function in there
16:47	blackdog	but i didn't see anything else
16:47	Chouser	or from cljs like (test/setText t)
16:48	Chouser	I don't think there's any way to set a JavaScript object property from cljs yet -- we'll probably need that.
16:49	Chouser	but you should be able to pass the setText function into jQuery if needed.
16:50	Chouser	I assume you realize you're in deep pre-release code here. :-)
16:51	blackdog	yes, no worries, i'm trying to help by applying it to things :)
16:54	aperotte	hello everyone ... does anyone have any experience with enclojure on ubuntu?
17:03	Chouser	aperotte: well, nobody else is jumping in -- I have run enclojure on Ubuntu, but I don't use it regularly.
17:04	blackdog	Chouser: this works in the browser ...
17:04	blackdog	(ns test)
17:04	blackdog
17:04	blackdog	(defn setText [t]
17:04	blackdog	(.html (jQuery "#nice") t))
17:05	blackdog	and in the html
17:05	blackdog	<script>
17:05	blackdog
17:05	blackdog	$(document).ready(function(){
17:05	blackdog	test.setText("rocking")
17:05	blackdog	});
17:05	blackdog	</script>
17:05	H4ns	lisppaste8: url
17:05	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
17:05	blackdog
17:05	blackdog
17:05	H4ns	blackdog: can you use the paste bin please?
17:05	blackdog	yes
17:05	Chouser	blackdog: great.
17:06	blackdog	does emacs have a lisppaste command?
17:07	blackdog	so i can select something and then paste it automatically?
17:07	H4ns	blackdog: not that i knew of it, but it's kind of a nice idea. let us know if you write or find it.
17:07	blackdog	jedit has one
17:08	blackdog	quite useful
17:08	Chouser	http://agriffis.n01se.net/nopaste/
17:08	Chouser	^^ I use that
17:08	blackdog	thanks
17:14	aperotte	Chouser: I was having some difficulty, I'll try again. I just wanted to make sure that someone has had success before. Thanks
17:18	StartsWithK	blackdog: http://paste.pocoo.org/about/
17:18	StartsWithK	i don't know how well it works, never tried it myself
17:19	blackdog	StartsWithK: i think the link Chouser gave me is what i want i can call it direcrlt from emacs
17:20	StartsWithK	blackdog: they clame to have emacs support, but link is broken :/
17:20	blackdog	ok :)
17:59	blackdog	Chouser, jquery, clj.js, boot.js and a small test - 189K, with yui compressor
18:32	Chouser	blackdog: ouch
18:32	Chouser	not gzipped though?
18:43	Chouser	If I turn off debug-fn-names when generating boot.js, and then run clj.js and boot.js through the YUI compressor, I get 130KB of javascript, which gzips down to 22KB
18:43	blackdog	0k cool, didn't know about that
18:45	Chouser	serving gzipped .js can be a bit tricky, though.
18:45	blackdog	oh, down to 22kb! wow
18:51	Chouser	of course that's without the html or jQuery
18:57	blackdog	Chouser: are maps, vectors and lists implemented?
18:57	danlarkin	I'm sad that macroexpand can't expand an invalid macro
18:57	H4ns	will i ever learn that i need (format "foo") not (format nil "foo") in clojure? couldn't that have been renamed? whine :)
18:57	danlarkin	I want to see what I'm doing wrong :-/
18:58	Chouser	danlarkin: PersistentHashMap, PersistentVector, and PersistentList should be -- no guarantees about buglessness, though
18:59	Chouser	just search clj.js for \"PersistentList\" to find out if the class is implemented yet
18:59	blackdog	ok
18:59	Chouser	Sorted maps aren't there yet
19:00	Chouser	Feel free to implement anything that's missing. :-) I generally open the .java in one window and clj.js in the other, and just translate.
19:00	H4ns	Chouser: clj.js is a clojure compiler in javascript?
19:01	Chouser	clj.js is clojure runtime in javascript (RT.java plus various other .java files)
19:01	Chouser	tojs.clj is a clojure-to-javascript compiler written in clojure. :-)
19:01	Chouser	both need to be renamed
19:01	H4ns	Chouser: ah, ok. shiver
19:01	H4ns	:)
19:01	blackdog	the compiler is really just the normal clojure compiler with callbacks no?
19:02	Chouser	H4ns: I know, I know.
19:02	Chouser	blackdog: sorta. It definitely leans very heavily on the normal clojure compiler.
19:02	H4ns	Chouser: i guess it is a fun thing to do, and people love such things. like the ocaml thing in js, and parenscript.
19:03	Chouser	well, writing code in clojure is so fun, and having to switch to JavaScript for the browser is a drag.
19:04	Chouser	this lets you code for the browser but with macros, persistent data structures, destructuring, etc.
19:04	H4ns	Chouser: sure, i understand that. it is just the debug aspect that makes me shy away from such things.
19:04	Chouser	yeah, pre-clojure I was pretty down on any to-javascript compilers.
19:04	H4ns	Chouser: i may be just a lousy programmer, needing a debugger and all :) - i made my peace with javascript, and mochikit made that rather easy
19:05	H4ns	Chouser: but maybe i'm becoming such a die-hard clojure hacker now that i'll choose clj.js in the future, too. javascript syntax is just a pain.
19:06	Chouser	the debugging is as terrible as it could be. All the var and local names are repeated in the JS by default, so finding your place isn't too bad.
19:06	Chouser	s/is/isn't/
19:06	blackdog	:)
19:06	Chouser	freudian
19:07	H4ns	chuckle
19:07	H4ns	i guess once i'm over all this "i want proper error messages" thing, i'll feel more comfortable with the thought.
19:08	Chouser	you still get a lot of the compile-time errors, since it's the same compiler
19:08	H4ns	that actually is very nice. parenscript is more of a mock lisp.
19:26	Chouser	YUI compressor seems to introduce a bug
19:28	blackdog	did you see this http://yuiblog.com/blog/2008/02/11/helping-the-yui-compressor
19:28	blackdog	give's some hints about problems with --verbose
19:34	Chouser	interesting -- points out some improvements I could make in tojs.clj
19:34	Chouser	But it's screwing up my string literals, generating code with syntax errors in it.
19:37	blackdog	mmine is fine here
19:37	blackdog	with the default options, no syntax errors in firebug
19:39	blackdog	i downloaded latest version
19:48	Chouser	I have 2.3.6
19:48	blackdog	mmm, i have 2.3.5
19:49	blackdog	thought i had the latest
19:49	blackdog	i'll try upgrading see if it fubars
19:49	lisppaste8	danlarkin pasted "defmacro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68005
19:51	danlarkin	so that macro does not work, but if I take out the last line, it does work
19:51	danlarkin	but I want it to define the symbol _and_ add it to the v-list
19:51	H4ns	danlarkin: expand into a do maybe?
19:52	rhickey	right
19:52	danlarkin	d'oh
19:53	blackdog	Chouser: all is well with 2.3.6
20:06	yangsx	I cannot access http://clojure.blip.tv; is there any alternative URL to the videos there?
20:20	danlarkin	yangsx: works for me?
20:24	yangsx	danlarkin: probably because of access restriction in China
20:25	danlarkin	yangsx: wow that's a real shame
20:26	abrooks	yangsx: Are there other video sharing sites (such as youtube.com) which are accessible?
20:26	Chouser	or even better, video.google.com, since then you can download the original
20:26	abrooks	Chouser: I think you can download the .mov from Blip.
20:28	yangsx	abrooks: google's works for me
20:54	abrooks	rhickey: Have you thought of using Google Video? Was there anything in particular that pulled you to Blip.tv? Personally, I find Blip's lack of instant seek and thumbnail preview points fairly annoying. The player is not nearly as good as Google Video with regard to navigation as well. The screen casts are so excellent but it's hard to quickly pull up sections to share with friends (Google Video allows URI anchors to points ...
20:54	abrooks	... in the video).
20:58	rhickey	I tried Google Video but the resolution is really low
20:58	abrooks	Oh, hm. Good point.
20:58	abrooks	Blip does look really nice.
20:59	abrooks	I don't know of any Mac OS X screen capture programs which can capture to vector based Flash... there are several for X which are really nice.
20:59	rhickey	The best way to view is to download first
21:01	abrooks	rhickey: Yeah, I've often wanted to email someone a pointer to a particular section of a video as one can do like this: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7760178035196894549#5m28s
21:02	abrooks	(The #5m28s is the anchor into the video timeline)
21:03	abrooks	rhickey: Would you be opposed to some of us downloading the original and uploading it to other video sharing sites?
21:08	rhickey	abrooks: I'd prefer not
21:08	abrooks	Okay. :)
21:09	rhickey	I agree the timeline pointers are neat. I'm terribly disappointed by the FLV format BLIP requires for the front page player. I can convert to the QuickTime in real time, FLVs take 8-16 hours to produce with Adobe's encoder
21:13	yangsx	rhickey: unfortunately, blip is not accessible to me from China :)
21:13	rhickey	yangsx: I understand, still thinking about that
21:14	yangsx	rhickey: and one can download higher resolution video files from video.google.com, e.g. with clive
21:17	rhickey	yangsx: what about itunes?
21:18	yangsx	rhickey: I haven't tried that, not sure
21:18	rhickey	they are there
21:20	H4ns	what could be the reason for a classnotfound exception, given that the jar is in place, contains the class and the classpath includes the jar? how does one debug such problems?
21:21	rhickey	H4ns: is the class public?
21:22	H4ns	rhickey: yes. in fact, i used it already, it worked, and now it does not.
21:22	rhickey	what is different?
21:22	H4ns	rhickey: is there some debug flag that i can use to trace jar file/class name resolution in the jvm, preferably without being overwhelmed?
21:23	H4ns	rhickey: that is a very good question. i'd claim "nothing", but that obviously can't be the case.
21:31	H4ns	java -verbose shows class loading information, and i was using the wrong script to start clojure
21:41	yangsx	I'm using Debian 64-bit. Is there a way to fetch files from the itunes with Linux. I'm still searching
22:17	ozzilee	Does the Repl have any way to get at the most-recently returned object?
22:18	Chouser	*1
22:18	ozzilee	Ah nice, thanks :-)
22:18	Chouser	np
22:20	ozzilee	Hmm, what's a good way to do something like while (foo.next()) { foo.bar() } ?
22:20	ozzilee	doseq maybe?
22:20	Chouser	foo.next() mutates -- is it an Iterator?
22:20	ozzilee	Jdbc4ResultSet
22:22	Chouser	(doc resultset-seq) ?
22:23	ozzilee	Heh wow, that's amazingly specific to this problem. Nice.
22:23	Chouser	Yeah, it's a bit unusual for boot.clj, but there you go.
22:25	ozzilee	All right, goal accomplished for the night, clojure is speaking to postgres. Thanks for the help.
22:26	Chouser	np
22:58	danlarkin	H4ns: I see @planet_lisp is up, good job
23:00	H4ns	danlarkin: thanks - well, it was kind of an end-to-end experience to test the deployability on freebsd and that. i still have a hard time being productive with clojure, but it is improving :)
23:00	danlarkin	what language do you use primarily?
23:01	H4ns	common lisp. which is near enough to clojure to make things relatively confusing :)
23:01	danlarkin	haha oh yes it must be fun for you
23:02	H4ns	what language are you coming from?
23:02	danlarkin	python
23:03	danlarkin	that's what I use for my day job, anyway
23:03	H4ns	propably not a bad background for learning clojure either. are you planning to do something real with clojure?
23:06	danlarkin	well yes, but it's pretty ambitious so it'll be slow going, especially while learning a new language
23:06	H4ns	:)
23:06	H4ns	same thing here.
23:07	danlarkin	the parallelism language constructs will help immensely, though
23:07	danlarkin	that's why I'm not doing it in python
23:09	H4ns	that is what I hope will help me, too. I will also use a lot of java software as infrastructure, hoping that it holds up with the promises in terms of matureness
23:16	danlarkin	access to all of these existing java libraries is killer, though. that's the reason I hadn't started in CL yet
23:17	danlarkin	one of them, anyway
23:18	H4ns	yeah. at the moment i'm considering how to access all these libraries, though. handing pointers to mutable java objects into pure functions seems like not being the best way.
23:19	H4ns	hand writing wrappers somehow does not seem like a good way, too. but i'm pretty sure that someone else already has thought about this. i'm just writing a group posting inquiring for some thoughts on this.
23:20	danlarkin	I suppose it could be done with a macro?
23:20	H4ns	danlarkin: depending on what you mean by "it"
23:21	H4ns	making a macro that lets proxy look a little nicer for common cases certainly is not hard
23:21	H4ns	creating a useable functional interface from large framework classes looks like being harder.
23:25	Chouser	H4ns: don't be afraid of Java
23:27	H4ns	i'm not afraid, i just don't know my way around. calling getters does not frighten, but disgust me :)
23:29	H4ns	Chouser: i'm really looking for the idioms of other, more experienced clojure hackers. if passing java objects without disguise is the way to go, so be it. i'd just not want to be missing something that makes things nicer.
23:35	H4ns	anyway, need sleep. cheers.
23:35	Chouser	g'night