#clojure – 2008-07-31

2008-07-31

00:20	dkf	did the syntax change so that (defn thing (ref [])) no longer works?
00:20	dkf	cause I'm getting an Don't know how to create ISeq from: Symbol exception
00:35	dkf	hmm, I guess that should have been a def
01:07	dkf	I have a vector, [1 0 1 0], in myRef .. (seq @myRef) and (vec @myRef*) always return the vector within another set of brackets.. how do I get rid of those brackets, so that conjing another vector (or mutation thereof) is seen as just one list of vectors (and no more levels deep)
05:01	meredydd	Chouser: Thanks for that - loadResourceScript is something I was entirely unaware of!
07:03	meredydd	Hmm, another compiler bug
07:04	meredydd	Unfortunately, I'm not quite sure how to reproduce this...seems to be an interaction of a couple of macros
07:21	meredydd	rhickey: prod
07:22	meredydd	rhickey: I've managed to reduce it to one line, to the point where removing any of the forms causes it to start working again
07:22	meredydd	(def k) (. k dosomething (do (try :something (catch java.lang.Exception e :something-else )) nil))
08:42	Chouser	meredydd: I can confirm that error
08:43	Chouser	dkf: (conj @myRef 2) ==> [1 0 1 0 2]
10:15	rhickey	meredydd: looking at your verify error now
10:15	meredydd	ta
10:16	cemerick	looks like clojure-contrib/import-static hasn't been updated to the new namespace scheme (there's references like set/intersection, rather than clojure.set/intersection) -- is this right, or am I missing something?
10:20	Chouser	cemerick: I think you're right. Tossing in a (alias 'set 'clojure.set) seems to fix it right up.
10:20	cemerick	Chouser: yeah; although, it should also be in an import_static dir, yes?
10:22	Chouser	oh, sure enough. looks like most of contrib hasn't been moved yet.
10:23	Chouser	but a bunch of stuff has been copied!? hm.
10:23	Chouser	looks like a bit of a mess at the moment.
10:24	cemerick	Chouser: yeah, I saw that; I was thinking that perhaps the top-level files are there to continue support for those who are following contrib but not clojure head (and therefore aren't using the new namespaces, etc)
10:25	Chouser	yeah, you must be right. I guess I should update my contribs.
10:25	dkf	chouser: I was looking for turning [1 0 1 0 1] into [1 0 1 0 1][1 0 1 0 2] so, basically, i'm derefing an element, mutating it, then conjing it on. My problem was that (seq @myRef) returns ([1 0 1 0 1]) and not [1 0 1 0 1]
10:26	dkf	but I ended up using (last @myRef)
10:26	Chouser	what is [1 0 1 0 1][1 0 1 0 2] ? If it's two things they must be in some kind of container?
10:26	dkf	a vector
10:27	dkf	myRef is []
10:27	dkf	so it's [[1 0 1 0 1][1 0 1 0 1]]
10:27	Chouser	ah, ok.
10:27	cemerick	Chouser: although, the top-level lib.clj has a (alias 'set 'clojure.set) in it, which wouldn't work prior to the new namespace stuff (I think -- don't remember which order alias and new namespaces went in)
10:28	dkf	fun little project.. I'm gonna need some more help here in a bit. I'm making a 2d cellular automaton, ala wolfram
10:30	dkf	right now, though, because I'm such a novice functional programmer (or even programmer, for that matter), I'm accomplishing it through what I like to call "brute force programming".. where there's no recursion.. it almost looks like assembly :)
10:30	dkf	So my next step is to condense it down to recursive structures.
10:32	Chouser	dkf: sounds like a good approach. I'm always in favor of making it work at least a little before making it right or pretty.
10:32	rhickey	dfk: as a tip, keep the ref logic out of the main logic - don't use refs/@ in the functions that calculate new state
10:34	dkf	right.. I spent half a day thinking about how I was going to clojure-ify this problem.. then said screw it, I'm building each instruction
10:34	rhickey	(alter ca-ref ca-step)
10:35	lisppaste8	dkf pasted "automaton" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/64480
10:35	dkf	there it is
10:36	dkf	I'm not sure if that's how I'll actually use it. I might just have one vector and through away the trailing subvectors
10:37	rhickey	dkf: first thing to try is vector equality, getting rid of the nths: (= v [0 0 0])
10:38	dkf	ah.. of course!
10:40	rhickey	dkf: could probably turn tri-iterate into a one-liner with rem and no cond
10:40	dkf	wait a minute. which function are you talking about?
10:41	rhickey	dkf: rule45
10:41	cemerick	Chouser: are you making any changes in clojure-contrib to bring it up to speed? If not, I'll post a msg on the group to see where people see things going there.
10:41	Chouser	cemerick: go ahead and post. I haven't been paying close enough attention to be sure what needs to be changed.
10:42	dkf	ah, i see
10:42	cemerick	Neither have I really (short of those pieces that I use already).
10:42	dkf	rhickey: how would you use rem in tri-iterate?
10:44	rhickey	dkf: the logic in each branch of the cond is the same relative to n
10:46	dkf	right, but remainder.. how does dividing return 3 elements from a given portion of the vector?
10:47	Chouser	you can use remainder to calculate the index.
10:47	rhickey	rem is used when you have wrap-around logic
10:47	dkf	my math isn't so good.
10:47	Chouser	(rem (+ n 5) 6) to decrement n wrapping around at 6
10:50	dkf	the repl says you're right
10:50	dkf	oh, i see
10:51	Chouser	right, so you can use the same kind of pattern to increment wrapping around as well
10:52	dkf	ah, but wait.. (rem (+ 6 5) 6) --> 5 .. (rem (+ 0 5) 6) --> 5
10:53	Chouser	oh, you're right. you found a bug in my code. :-)
10:53	dkf	need to get that sixth element
10:53	dkf	but I see what you're saying
10:53	Chouser	since you actually have 7 values (including 0 and 6) you want the remainder when dividing by 7 (not 6 like I said)
10:53	dkf	ah, ok
10:55	dkf	so it's (rem (+ n 6) 7)
10:55	dkf	I've never seen that use of remainder before
10:58	dkf	great. So with this, I will be able to make automatons of any size
10:59	rhickey	dkf: right!
10:59	dkf	That was next on my todo list :)
11:05	rhickey	dkf: there's also a nice way to do it with partition, cycle and range, when you are ready for the next level
11:12	cemerick	apropos of nothing -- while reorganizing a project here to be in step with the new namespace system, I'm finding this one-directory-per-namespace standard very tiresome. It seems like supporting one file-per-namespace as well as the directory-per-namespace (for namespaces that required multiple source files) would be far friendlier. I don't know what that would require in lib or what the ramifications would be elsewhere, of course.
11:13	dkf	How do I find the length of a vector?
11:13	Chouser	dkf: count
11:13	Chouser	heh. I don't mean you should count it.
11:13	Chouser	(count v)
11:13	dkf	thanks :)
11:14	Chouser	cemerick: in what specific way is it tiresome? can we provide tools to ease the pain?
11:14	dkf	is that a lisp thing? why wouldn't there be a (length [0 0 0]) function?
11:16	Chouser	dkf: it's just called count instead of length. In the wide world of APIs, I've seen count, length, and size used almost interchangably.
11:16	Chouser	nobody ever seems to call it width or height, though.
11:17	cemerick	Chouser: it's just a matter of contrast with other environments. When virtually every directory has just a single file in it, moving around that project structure requires perceptibly more work than it would be otherwise.
11:17	rhickey	length is not a good fit for non-sequental collections
11:17	rhickey	cemerick: why so many namespaces?
11:18	dkf	ah
11:18	cemerick	rhickey: they mirror existing java packages, or packages/classnames we want to expose to java consumers
11:19	rhickey	cemerick: turning classnames into packages is going to cause that explosion
11:20	Chouser	you can put multiple classes in one directory, right?
11:20	cemerick	rhickey: you mean 'namespaces into packages', yes?
11:20	rhickey	cemerick: now it is the same as Java, yes
11:20	rhickey	cemerick: yes
11:20	cemerick	Chouser: Sure.
11:20	rhickey	cemerick: no package + class into namespace
11:22	cemerick	rhickey: well, same as Java + 1 -- if Java were to require a directory for the class com.foo.Bar, with a Bar.java file in it
11:22	cemerick	I realize Java's pretty confused w.r.t. classes functioning as namespaces, but that's the practical effect.
11:22	rhickey	cemerick: that's what I'm advocating against - why isnt the namespace com.foo ?
11:23	cemerick	rhickey: because gen-class is going to search for a com.foo.Bar namespace at init -- or am I one step behind recent gen-class changes?
11:23	rhickey	when implementing a Java class using gen-class, it's exactly the same dir/file granularity
11:24	rhickey	cemerick: yes, you are behind
11:24	rhickey	com.foo.Bar is Bar-ths Bar-that in namespace com.foo, file Bar.clj
11:25	rhickey	dir com/foo/
11:25	cemerick	right, fooey
11:26	Chouser	cemerick: sorry. now you get to undo all those mkdirs :-/
11:26	cemerick	well, that certainly helps
11:26	rhickey	ok, well at least it seems not to be a gripe with where we are going?
11:26	cemerick	rhickey: well, I still have a gripe about one dir per namespace -- gen-class' recent changes just make things a little easier otherwise.
11:29	rhickey	cemerick: too many benefits to playing along with Java packages, but I agree people will have to consider it when organizing their Clojure libs
11:30	rhickey	bigger than a class but probably finer than your ordinary java package
11:30	cemerick	rhickey: well, consider clojure/src/clj for a moment -- isn't there a way to indicate that tools should look for clojure.set in clojure/set.clj rather than clojure/set/set.clj?
11:32	cemerick	(BTW, I keep niggling at this because while it bothers me just a little (and I'll get over it), I know that many programmers will be bothered by it a lot, especially those coming from python or ruby environments where one-file-per-module is standard)
11:32	rhickey	dropping a segment means dropping a distinction at some point
11:32	rhickey	Python and Ruby are still class oriented, no?
11:33	cemerick	I'm far less acquainted with Ruby, but you can do a lot in Python without touching classes.
11:33	cemerick	Just functions in modules, one module per file.
11:33	rhickey	what if clojure.set had a manifest resource, what's to keep that file from conflicting with the clojure.foo manifest resource?
11:34	rhickey	or any other related items
11:34	cemerick	you mean manifest, as in /META-INF manifests?
11:34	Chouser	You can def functions at a package (module) level in python, but I think you'd usually do all those in a single file in the module's directory -- just like clojure is now.
11:34	drewr	Ruby's and Python's module systems are very different.
11:34	rhickey	cemerick: any resource really, blah.ico
11:36	albino	in python there isn't any point in creating a package (fs directory) when you can do it in one file with a .py extension
11:37	cemerick	Chouser: It's been a little while (a year, maybe since I touched python much), but packages work just like modules, except their name is defined by their directory name, and their definitions are placed in the __init__.py file in that dir
11:37	Chouser	ah, so you can migrate from foo.py to foo/__init__.py if you need to include other files for whatever reason.
11:38	cemerick	Chouser: yup
11:38	drewr	cemerick: __init__.py is only required to tell the interpreter that the directory contains modules.
11:38	Chouser	I bet it would be pretty hard to talk Java tools into following that kind of layout.
11:38	cemerick	drewr: right, but if you want definitions associated with that package's name, you can put them in __init__
11:39	cemerick	rhickey: what I'm suggesting is that, if you have a namespace that has multiple resources (whether they're multiple clj files, images files, whatever), then make a directory for the namespace, and pile everything in there. Otherwise, just have a single .clj file for that namespace.
11:39	drewr	cemerick: True.
11:39	cemerick	That requires lib to attempt a couple different loading strategies on each require/use call, but makes life a lot simpler for the simple cases. I think the wildcard is tooling.
11:40	rhickey	I think it is a mistake to ignore what classpath/jars/remote-resource loading brings to the table - I can't make Java aware of some home-made scheme
11:42	cemerick	I guess I'm not following how any namespace conventions that are set forth aren't a home-made scheme -- it's not like a classloader knows that clojure.set maps onto /clojure/set/set.clj natively -- lib has to figure that out, or one has to explicitly load that file.
11:43	rhickey	it knows that clojure.set's resources are under clojure/set/, just from the class package
11:44	cemerick	rhickey: Oh, sure -- but in the simple case where there are no resources, it absolutely doesn't hurt to have clojure.set loaded from /clojure/set.clj
11:46	rhickey	What are the classes called?
11:47	cemerick	I don't follow.
11:47	rhickey	each function becomes a Java class that must have a valid package
11:47	Chouser	clojure functions generate java classes
11:49	cemerick	I would presume that they'd be called whatever they're called now, based on the namespace. I presume at this point we run into the tooling question.
11:50	cemerick	(right now, clojure.set/intersection is the class clojure.set.intersection__2037 in my repl, which seems fine)
11:50	rhickey	right, before they didn't line up, thwarting tooling (although JSR 45 lets one remap, support varies), now they line up
11:51	rhickey	I don't want to go down a road that's going to have to change once people want resources, JNLP, ahead-of-time compilation etc
11:52	cemerick	I guess where you lose me here is: where, other than enclojure or some other environment where there is clojure awareness built-in, are we looking to support tooling.
11:52	rhickey	JNLP
11:52	rhickey	resources, everything that uses classpath
11:52	cemerick	again, if there are no resources, then I don't see what the downside is
11:53	wlr	Given a clojure seq I'd like to print it readably to and re-read it from an external file. Could some kind soul offer up the dual print/read incantations involving out and filename?
11:53	cemerick	if there are resources, then they get piled into a directory matching the namespace/package, and all's right with the world
11:53	Chouser	wlr: i've got an example sitting around. hang on.
11:54	lisppaste8	dkf annotated #64480 with "automaton" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/64480#1
11:54	dkf	Well, I've gotten rid of the cond
11:54	dkf	so it's a little prettier
11:57	dkf	could probably get rid of the nth's in tri-take somehow, but I'm going to move on to rule45
11:57	lisppaste8	Chouser pasted "print/read" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/64489
11:57	Chouser	wlr: that's what I do, but I should use "read" instead of "load-file"
11:58	Chouser	dkf: looks good! + can take more than 2 args: (+ n 1 l)
11:58	wlr	Chouser: Thank you very much.
11:59	rhickey	cemerick: all those are homemade rules every tool is going to have to be aware of, and no Java tools ever will - what if the ns is defined in more than one clj?, if there are resources does the clj move down? etc
11:59	dkf	Chouser: thanks
12:02	cemerick	rhickey: if there are more than one .clj in a ns, or if there are resources, then everything in that ns goes into a directory. It's seems like a straightforward thing to me (perhaps only because of my ignorance of impl details). Regarding tools -- I'd wonder what tool other than something that is already clojure-aware would need to pull up that single file that defines a namespace (/clojure/set.clj, for example).
12:04	Chouser	cemerick: debuggers, for one
12:04	rhickey	profilers
12:07	cemerick	Perhaps I'm assuming too much about which tools people are using for those things. i.e. if I'm using clojure, I'd want to be in enclojure or some enclojure-aware emacs environment, etc.
12:07	rhickey	As I said, there is an JSR that let's one specify different paths and file names, and Clojure emits JSR 45 info, but support varies. Putting things in a path that matches the package/ns, and having that be a general rule, is much more straightforward in all contexts
12:09	rhickey	cemerick: you mention Clojure aware, but in the case of enclojure for instance, what they are doing is trying to get existing Java tooling to work with minimal change
12:09	cemerick	I guess my opinion would be to rely on tools to catch up with JSR 45. JRuby and Jython have this exact same problem, so it seems like a decent bandwagon to be on, in terms of community demand.
12:10	cemerick	rhickey: Right, but even without JSR 45, it's no big trick to push the NB debugger or profiler to bring up the contents of this-file-over-here when it needs to show clojure.set.
12:12	cemerick	I guess I find myself in the unusual position of advocating for the new user. Perhaps my concerns in that regard are unfounded.
12:12	rhickey	cemerick: I don't you've sold the benefits of your approach at all, just downplaying the benefits of following classpath. What's so difficult about creating a dir for a namespace?
12:14	rhickey	I guess a lot has to do with the granularity of a namespace
12:15	cemerick	It's not about difficulty, it's about simplicity, cognitive overhead, and things working like people would expect them to work. We're trying to fit into a Java ecosystem, but I'll bet serious money that a Java programmer would be very confused about the ns com.foo.bar needing to reside in /com/foo/bar/bar.clj.
12:17	rhickey	why wouldn't he presume everything related to the package com.foo.bar is in com/foo/bar/ and just be surprised and pleased you don't have to have umpteen .java files to define a package?
12:18	rhickey	would you prefer /com/foo/bar/init.clj?
12:18	erochester	I don't really have a dog in this fight (and my better judgment is warning me to stay out of this, but when has that ever stopped me?), but cognitively, Clojure already breaks the fairly simple directory=package, file=class schema that a Java programmer might have.
12:18	erochester	Well, I'm not an experienced Java programmer, and that's the schema I have about them, anyway.
12:18	erochester	Someone who know Java better may think of it differently.
12:19	erochester	And I may be misreading Clojure too :)
12:19	rhickey	erochester: yes, but these changes unify dir/package/namespace
12:19	rhickey	not having classes, things diverge there
12:20	cemerick	rhickey: I'm pretty sure that most (if not all) java programmers don't think about "defining a package" -- they define classes that happen to live in a package. They'll want to define functions and happen to live in a namespace.
12:20	erochester	rhickey: Right, and I can see how they would make tool integration much easier.
12:20	rhickey	but technically, there are classes, and they are defined in the source files contained in the dir matching the package/namspace, just like Java
12:21	rhickey	those source files end in .clj and there are fewer of them, and their names don't correspond to classnames
12:23	rhickey	cemerick: would you prefer /com/foo/bar/init.clj? - that's a serious question, is the /bar/bar part the problem?
12:23	cemerick	rhickey: No, the name of the "top level" clj file in a namespace dir isn't a problem either way
12:26	Chouser	It'll be interesting to see how the gen stuff shakes out, but for now I'm experimenting with putting one gen.clj file in each namespace dir: net/n01se/n01se-gen.clj
12:26	Chouser	Then the various class .clj's next to it (one per class so the generated startup code can find it)
12:26	rhickey	cemerick: when they "define classes that live in a package" they put the code in source files that live in a dir corresponding to the package - I don't see how this is different
12:27	Chouser	in that context, it might be interesting to use "gen.clj" for build-time stuff and "run.clj" or "init.clj" for runtime stuff.
12:27	cemerick	rhickey: agreed, but packages aren't viewed as entities unto themselves in Java
12:27	cemerick	I guess I'll sit down now, though. :-) I don't have any data or anything to support my claims of new user expectations, so all I've to go on is extrapolating from my personal reactions.
12:29	erochester	This might just be a matter of making this explicit in the introductory docs and in tutorials. The expectations of new Clojure-users (is there a name for this yet?) just need to be managed somewhat.
12:30	erochester	I can see how using keeping changing clojure/set/set.clj to clojure/set.clj would be confusing also, since file != module. How do you tell the difference between clojure/boot.clj and clojure/genclass.clj, which are all in clojure, and clojure/set.clj, which is in clojure.set?
12:31	rhickey	cemerick: it is important. If dirs are truly bothersome we could end up with users avoiding namespaces and lots of fns named blah-foo, where blah should have been a namespace
12:31	erochester	"using keeping changing" => "changing"
12:31	lisppaste8	dkf annotated #64480 with "automaton" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/64480#2
12:31	dkf	so I cleaned up rule45 too, but now I have problems with mutate
12:32	dkf	I don't see why it's returning a list instead of a vector
12:33	rhickey	dkf: isn't it returning a vector with a list in it?
12:33	dkf	yes actually
12:33	Chouser	You might want "vec" instead of "vector", to convert the list generated by map into a vector
12:33	dkf	map returns a list then
12:34	rhickey	you either want to apply vector, or better, use vec
12:34	dkf	ah, ok
12:34	dkf	oh yea!
12:35	dkf	chickachickaaah
12:35	dkf	oooh, beast.. unlimited size automaton now
12:35	Chouser	isn't it great when less code gets you more features?
12:35	dkf	absolutely
12:36	cemerick	rhickey: I don't think it'd come to that -- I think of it more of a question of matching expectations and generally making for a gentle learning curve.
12:36	cemerick	(again, whether or not my impression of expectations is right or not remains to be seen)
12:38	cemerick	I'd again point out that JRuby and Jython have exactly this problem (mapping Java names to arbitrary resources), so whatever standards enable tooling for them should help clojure as well.
12:39	cemerick	s/arbitrary/"arbitrary"
12:43	dkf	ok, unfortunately, that apparently isn't actually rule 45 :) but some twiddling of the bits should fix that
12:46	dkf	ok, there it is
12:46	dkf	it's fast too
12:49	dkf	rule45, 90 cells wide, 1000 iterations: "Elapsed time: 991.024605 msecs"
12:50	rhickey	cemerick: the only other way I'd think about it is namespace == class, i.e. no adding a set dir later stuff, all but the last segment is a real Java package and you have resources per package, i.e. potentially shared between namespaces. But there are sticky bits, like the generated fn classes - I'm not sure I can fabricate true nested classes there...
12:51	rhickey	the other problem is org.myns ends up in Java package org, i.e. you lose a distinguishing level
12:52	rhickey	no more namespace clojure
12:54	dkf	rule45, 90 cells wide, 1000 iterations: "Elapsed time: 761.859189 msecs" (changed one line slightly :)
12:55	dkf	Is holding the automaton state in a ref the best or most efficient way to do this?
12:56	Chouser	if you only need to observe the final state of the whole thing, you could build it iteratively (recursively) and return the result -- no need to mutate a ref.
12:57	rhickey	(take 1000 (iterate mutate [1 0 1 0 1]))
12:57	dkf	and print to screen each iteration, for the pretty final picture
12:58	rhickey	dkf: could you call it something other than mutate :)
12:58	dkf	hahah, yea, why?
12:58	rhickey	cause you aren't changing anything
12:59	dkf	oh yea
12:59	dkf	heheh
12:59	rhickey	step/evolve
12:59	dkf	bifurcate?
12:59	dkf	step is too general
13:00	Chouser	step-automata
13:01	dkf	indeed
13:02	dkf	holy... "Elapsed time: 3.164833 msecs"
13:03	dkf	those swaps to the ref taking up the vast majority of time
13:03	dkf	rule45, 90 cells wide, 1000 iterations: "Elapsed time: 3.164833 msecs"
13:03	dkf	we have a winner
13:05	dkf	wait a minute
13:06	dkf	I typo'd. dropped the iterate.. but now that I've added the word iterate in there, "Elapsed time: 0.32325 msecs" .. which can't be right
13:07	rhickey	the result is lazy
13:08	dkf	So it's only measuring the last step?
13:11	dkf	how can I print out the results? in the step-automata?
13:12	rhickey	dkf: best to avoid side-effects in you main code, just walk through the result, doseq would work
13:16	dkf	ok
13:26	dkf	(doseq prn (take 1000 (iterate (step-automata [0 0 1 0 0])))) ? what am I missing?
13:28	dkf	I'm still learning to read the docs
13:28	dkf	(doseq item list & body) not sure what item is here
13:29	rhickey	doseq takes a name, a seq, and a body of code which uses the name to refer to the current element in the sequence
13:29	rhickey	(doseq x aseq (prn x))
13:30	dkf	aaah
13:31	dkf	as a newcomer, that wasn't intuitive because everywhere else I see binding done in lets. I don't usually see the binding name outside of some kind of enclosing brackets
13:33	dkf	but now it says wrong number of args passed to iterate. whereas, without the doseq iterate functioned fine
13:33	dkf	(doseq x (take 1000 (iterate (step-automata [0 0 0 1 0 0 0]))) (prn x))
13:34	dkf	ok, so the binding is trying to take place in iterate
13:34	rhickey	the entire call to (take 1000 ...) goes where aseq is above
13:36	dkf	It looks like it is to me. You mean put the (prn x) inside the body that returns the aseq?
13:39	dkf	to me, it looks like a replace the aseq above with the call to (take 1000 ...)
13:39	rhickey	looks like you aren't using a working call to iterate - it takes a fn as its first arg (iterate step ...) not (iterate (step ...
13:39	dkf	bam, that fixed it
13:40	dkf	hmm, iterate worked like that prior to the doseq
13:40	rhickey	I doubt it
13:40	dkf	sorry about that.. lets see.. "Elapsed time: 731.130256 msecs"
13:44	dkf	most of that time probably spent printing though
13:48	dkf	ok, this is more reasonable (println (last (take 1000 (iterate step-automata [ (90 cells) ])))) "Elapsed time: 611.030474 msecs" and it did indeed print out a changed condition
13:49	dkf	that's pretty interesting we did all that without maintaining any state
13:49	rhickey	there you go!
13:52	dkf	1,000,000 iterations: "Elapsed time: 52809.541073 msecs"
13:54	dkf	heh, I wonder if this kind of problem could be multi-threaded.. I suppose you could concatenate two cell spaces together
13:56	Chouser	you're using map in mutate? you could try out pmap
13:56	dkf	same syntax?
13:56	Chouser	not quite
13:56	Chouser	and you need some 3rdparty .jar -- I've not actually tried it yet.
13:57	dkf	ah
13:59	dkf	What about splitting rule45 into rule45First4Bits and rule45Second4Bits and make rule45 cut the vector in half and call to two different threads?
14:00	dkf	erm, not cut the vector in half
14:00	Chouser	ah, run your tests in parallel, instead of sequence?
14:01	dkf	I guess just send the vector to each one and one will return a value of 0 or 1.. yea
14:01	Chouser	I bet you'd get some speedup if you used a hash instead of a cond for rul45
14:01	dkf	a hash?
14:02	Chouser	{[0 0 0] 0, [0 0 1] 0, [0 1 0] 1, ...}
14:03	Chouser	put that in rule45hash, then just: (rule45hash v) to get your new bit
14:03	dkf	hmm
14:04	Chouser	a hash is a lookup table.
14:04	Chouser	a.k.a. "map", but not to be confused with the map function you're already using.
14:05	dkf	right.. the repl likes it.. so.. instead of a defn, just (def rule45hash {etc})
14:05	Chouser	yep
14:06	Chouser	actually, the hash will act exactly as your fn does now, so just (def rule45 {...})
14:08	dkf	woops.. did the million iterations again
14:08	dkf	it has to best 52 seconds
14:09	dkf	interesting.. top says cpu 124% java
14:10	dkf	uhoh
14:10	dkf	fan on... getting hot
14:10	Chouser	hm.
14:10	dkf	still not done
14:10	dkf	might have to kill it
14:11	dkf	killed it.. chouser, I think you just software overclocked my computer
14:11	Chouser	heh
14:11	Chouser	you must have dual cores?
14:11	dkf	yea
14:11	Chouser	the only change was rule45?
14:12	dkf	so maybe hash has some parallelization ?
14:12	dkf	yea
14:12	lisppaste8	dkf annotated #64480 with "automaton" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/64480#3
14:12	dkf	commented out the last one
14:13	dkf	are commas necessary?
14:13	dkf	oh, that was a hundred thousand, not a million
14:14	Chouser	commas are unecessary
14:14	dkf	ok, here we go
14:14	dkf	1000 iterations, as before
14:14	rhickey	map will be faster
14:14	dkf	"Elapsed time: 2305.308249 msecs"
14:14	dkf	yup
14:15	dkf	hmm
14:15	rhickey	not 52:2
14:15	dkf	well, that was 1000
14:15	dkf	52 was 100000 iterations
14:15	Chouser	rhickey: map faster than pmap?
14:15	dkf	faster than hash
14:16	dkf	52 seconds for 100,000 iterations with map
14:16	dkf	much longer for hash, but it seamed to be using both cpus
14:17	Chouser	dkf: you've got pmap in what you pasted
14:17	dkf	whatthe
14:18	rhickey	I get a 12:17 ration map/cond for rule45
14:18	rhickey	ratio
14:18	dkf	find-doc "pmap" just returns just zipmap for me
14:19	dkf	rhickey: map verses cond?
14:19	dkf	(yet, pmap still compiles here
14:19	dkf	)
14:20	rhickey	map data structure vs cond for rule45, isn't that what you are testing?
14:20	dkf	oh, well, hash-map verses cond
14:20	dkf	just hash
14:21	dkf	and I just switched pmap back to map and....
14:21	dkf	new record for 1000 iterations "Elapsed time: 543.289027 msecs"
14:21	dkf	wonder why pmap worked at all.. its it in the lib and just not documented?
14:22	rhickey	right, don't use pmap
14:22	dkf	heh, ok
14:23	dkf	rhickey: for map/cond .. were you refering to using a map or using the map function, in rule45?
14:23	dkf	or hash-map
14:24	rhickey	I've gotta run, here's a version, with parallelization (which doesn't help here)
14:24	lisppaste8	rhickey pasted "ca" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/64496
14:24	dkf	oh beast.. sweet.. I'll mull this over.. thanks.
14:33	dkf	hmm. exception in jsr166y.forkjoin.ParallelArray
14:33	dkf	class loader issue of some sort or something
14:34	dkf	anyway, I gotta go to.. thanks chouser, thanks rhickey
15:14	dkf	you know what the super food of super programmers is?
15:15	dkf	fricken oatmeal!
15:27	lisppaste8	rhickey annotated #64496 with "cleaned up a bit" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/64496#1
15:30	dkf	This could make a sick example for the wiki
15:32	dkf	by the way, I had the order of rule 45 wrong.. it's 10110100, backwards
15:32	dkf	functions the same way, just a different output
15:33	dkf	rhickey: has the parallel improved performance?
15:35	rhickey	parallel will improve performance as the vector gets wider, no faster at 80
15:37	dkf	This is a good example because cellular automatons are usually thought of as stateful (state-machines?) and here's one that's stateless, right?
15:39	dkf	wait a minute.. I remember you saying in a video that you worked on mathematica... have you read NKS?
23:26	CptPicard	hi guys... what's wrong with my named fns here?
23:26	CptPicard	http://pastebin.com/m2e09c17b
23:26	CptPicard	"Var beer-internal is unbound"
23:28	CptPicard	does one need to defn inner functions too?